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computers / news.software.readers / Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

SubjectAuthor
* (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categoriesLars Anders
+* Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieVanguardLH
|`* Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieLars Anders
| `* Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieVanguardLH
|  +* Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieLars Anders
|  |+- Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieVanguardLH
|  |+* Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieBernd Rose
|  ||`- Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieLars Anders
|  |`- Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieBernd Rose
|  +- Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieBernd Rose
|  +- Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieLars Anders
|  `* Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieVanguardLH
|   `* Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieVanguardLH
|    +* Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieVanguardLH
|    |`* Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieR.Wieser
|    | `* Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieVanguardLH
|    |  `- Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieR.Wieser
|    `- Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieLars Anders
`* Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieBernd Rose
 `- Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categorieLars Anders

1
(Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

<t0lpjn$nvk$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: larsande...@glocalnet.se (Lars Anders)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 23:01:27 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Lars Anders - Sun, 13 Mar 2022 22:01 UTC

The "category" tabs can of order left to right in a reverse creation.
But how reorder tabs in "Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered"?

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

<w6dl2nstei9s$.dlg@v.nguard.lh>

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 19:05:03 -0500
Organization: Usenet Elder
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 by: VanguardLH - Mon, 14 Mar 2022 00:05 UTC

Lars Anders wrote:

> The "category" tabs can of order left to right in a reverse creation.
> But how reorder tabs in "Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered"?

I've never reordered the entries under the All, New, Folders, or
Filtered tabs. I have rearranged the newsgroups under the Subscribed
tab. It's been awhile, but I think to select newsgroup(s), and use
Alt+Arrowkey to move them up or down. I think I got that info from the
Help in the program.

I hunted around the Help contents, and found the related help under
Contents tab -> Reference -> Drag and drop support. Yep, Alt with
drap-n-drop.

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

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From: larsande...@glocalnet.se (Lars Anders)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 01:20:20 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Lars Anders - Mon, 14 Mar 2022 00:20 UTC

On 14 Mar 2022, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote :

> I've never reordered the entries under the All, New, Folders, or
> Filtered tabs.

Want to reorder all tabs (not "entries under the tabs").
Maybe even want to remove unused tabs (maybe Filters remove).

Cats can easy to reorder by creation date (cat3 before cat2 before cat1).
But I am asking about other too many tabs.

Instead of "Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filters : cat3 cat2 cat1"
Maybe "Filters : New : Folders : All : Subscribed : cat1 cat2 cat3"

Even better to remove not using tabs "Filters" and "New" if possibly.
Maybe then only see this "Folders : All : Subscribed : cat1 cat2 cat3"

How?

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 23:11:47 -0500
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 by: VanguardLH - Mon, 14 Mar 2022 04:11 UTC

Lars Anders wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote :
>
>> I've never reordered the entries under the All, New, Folders, or
>> Filtered tabs.
>
> Want to reorder all tabs (not "entries under the tabs").

You cannot reoder the tabs themselves.

> Maybe even want to remove unused tabs (maybe Filters remove).

The Filters tab is a convenience in finding newsgroup. If you are
hunting around for a gardening newsgroup, you could keep scrolling the
list of thousands of newsgroups trying to find a relevant newsgroup, or
enter "gardening" and get the list shortened to just those that have
"garden" somewhere in their name. Finding one, or a few newsgroups, in
a horde of thousands would be difficult to impossible without the
Filters tab. You say po-tay-toh. App says po-tah-toh. The Filters tab
is a search tab.

> Instead of "Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filters : cat3 cat2 cat1"
> Maybe "Filters : New : Folders : All : Subscribed : cat1 cat2 cat3"

Why wouldn't Subscribed be the first tab? That is the list of those
newsgroups to which you have actually subscribed (the ones for which you
see the articles within them). The other tabs will show you just
newsgroups, not articles within them. The subscribed newsgroups are
those where you participate.

> Even better to remove not using tabs "Filters" and "New" if possibly.
> Maybe then only see this "Folders : All : Subscribed : cat1 cat2 cat3"

Folders show only the local folders. Dialog is a poor e-mail client,
and should only be used for newsgroups. For Usenet, only the Sent
folder makes sense: that folder records articles you sent to Usenet.
The Inbox and Outbox folders are really just for use with e-mail, and
Dialog is about the worse e-mail client you can use considering the
plethora of far superior e-mail clients many of which are free.

As has been evidenced many times in the past, when a client does both
e-mail and newsgroups, the sender will mistake sending a message to
Usenet instead of as an e-mail. That means something possible very
personal ends up living forever in the public venue of Usenet rather
than just between the sender and recipient via e-mail. Best to use
Dialog for newsgroups only, and an e-mail client for e-mails only.

Since development on Dialog ended back in 2002 (with an update in 2005),
it likely does not support the required protocols for e-mails that
current e-mail clients can handle, like TLS for encrypting logon
credentials. Dialog only supports SSL, but I don't which versions.
Even the latest version 3 got deprecated because it was vulnerable (and
so is TLS 1.0 which is a clone of SSLv3 but with different handshaking
making SSLv3 and TLSv1 incompatible). Because SSL got deprecated long
ago, and even earlier versions of TLS also got deprecated, Dialog cannot
support connects to servers that demand TLSv3. The author didn't die
(back when he abandoned Dialog). He just wasn't interested in it
anymore, and moved on to more fun stuff.

It's a very usable but ancient client, and its filtering surpasses most,
if not all, current NNTP clients, and the ability to test on all headers
(not just overview, but also non-overview), and allows you to add event
and custom scripts, and so on. But it doesn't let you reorder the tabs.

It is what it is. You cannot change the order of the newsgroup tabs
(Subscribed, All, New, Folders, and Filtered). However, sometimes Bernd
knows more about the guts of Dialog than do I, so you'll have to wait
until he participates to say Yay or Nay. I'm guessing he will note that
Dialog is written in Delphi (aka Object Pascal), and you could change
the code to make the program do what you want, but I don't know if
anyone hosts the source code for Dialog. Not all authors make their
chrome configured in any way conceivable resulting in a client that
looks nothing like the original. I suspect the author was more
interested in functionality than prettiness or personal customization.

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

<t0nu3j$c55$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: larsande...@glocalnet.se (Lars Anders)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:30:27 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Lars Anders - Mon, 14 Mar 2022 17:30 UTC

On 14 Mar 2022, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote :

> The Filters tab is a search tab.

It is good searchers. Instead I do not need Filters tab.

> Why wouldn't Subscribed be the first tab?

I do not used subscribed any newsgroups.
I used categories instead.

> The other tabs will show you just
> newsgroups, not articles within them. The subscribed newsgroups are
> those where you participate.

The {cat3,cat2,cat1} adds exact that with many better organizations.
(I use tabs right to left because right is location {headers,messages}.
"Settings => Layout => Window layout => {Pane layout=1, Pane content=1}"

> Folders show only the local folders.

Category tabs only I need.
I adds {Drafts,Outbox,Sent} inside to {cat3,cat2,cat1}.
Adds {cat3,cat2,cat1} to solve each problem you speak on! :-)

> The Inbox and Outbox folders are really just for use with e-mail

I not use Dialog to e-mail. I use Dialog only to USENET.
The Outbox useful to save unsent when bad USENET connection.

> As has been evidenced many times in the past, when a client does both
> e-mail and newsgroups, the sender will mistake sending a message to
> Usenet instead of as an e-mail.

Not to worry.
Never I use Dialog to e-mail!

> Dialog cannot support connects to servers that demand TLSv3.

Dialog work good with STUNNEL to USENET encrypt nntp servers.
Never I use Dialog to e-mail.

> But it doesn't let you reorder the tabs.
> It is what it is. You cannot change the order of the newsgroup tabs

That is probably answer I like to find.
Thank you!

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

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From: b.rose.t...@arcor.de (Bernd Rose)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 20:30:41 +0100
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 by: Bernd Rose - Mon, 14 Mar 2022 19:30 UTC

On Sun, 13rd Mar 2022 23:01:27 +0100, Lars Anders wrote:

> The "category" tabs can of order left to right in a reverse creation.
> But how reorder tabs in "Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered"?

Categories <Subscribed> to <Filtered> are fixed. They can neither be
deleted nor is it possible to re-order them.

All user defined categories can be deleted/renamed/re-ordered. To do this,
click with right mouse button on an arbitrary group/folder. In the mouse
menu choose <Category> -> <ManageCategories...>.

Bernd

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

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From: b.rose.t...@arcor.de (Bernd Rose)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
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 by: Bernd Rose - Mon, 14 Mar 2022 19:48 UTC

On Sun, 13th Mar 2022 23:11:47 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

[Reorder/hide fixed group tabs]
> Dialog is written in Delphi (aka Object Pascal), and you could change
> the code to make the program do what you want, but I don't know if
> anyone hosts the source code for Dialog.

AFAICT, Marcus is the only one with access to the code. So, changing the
code and recompiling is out of question. (Without disassembling the whole
thing. - Or the like...)

IIRC, someone (permanently) hid one or several of the standard tabs by
changing the Dialog.exe file with a resource editor. This is /not/ sth.
I'd recommend in such a case.

It /might/ be possible to tackle the problem with a message script. (By
intercepting the tab drawing messages.) - Again, IMHO, not really worth
the effort.

Bernd

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

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From: larsande...@glocalnet.se (Lars Anders)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 00:30:01 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Lars Anders - Mon, 14 Mar 2022 23:30 UTC

On 14 Mar 2022, Bernd Rose <b.rose.tmpbox@arcor.de> wrote :

> Categories <Subscribed> to <Filtered> are fixed. They can neither be
> deleted nor is it possible to re-order them.

That is answer I seeked!
Not what I want but the no can do answer is expected.

On the side, only of those folders useful is "All" to me.

Subscribed = I use {cat3,cat2,cat1} categories instead.
New = I do not use it
Folders = I put Drafts & Outbox in a category instead.
Filtered = I do not use it

Not hope to use resource editor because do not know what to change.
https://mh-nexus.de/en/hxd/

Thank you Bernd!

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

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From: larsande...@glocalnet.se (Lars Anders)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 23:33:34 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Lars Anders - Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:33 UTC

On 15 Mar 2022, Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote :

> Not at all. I use the Outbox all the time for Usenet. I leave posts
> there for a while, then re-read, edit, sometimes delete them.

Sometimes I queued more than one message in Outbox as to send all at once.
Good for flaky network connect.

WARNING PSA A Outbox bug watch out for!

If you is inside Outbox when hit send message get modified temporarily.
If open they are looking blank. But not real. Temp file bug in Dialog!
Must not EDIT!

Temporary file bug.
Hard to explain.

Must be best to get out of Outbox before to hit SEND button!!!!!!!!!

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 20:41:39 -0500
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 by: VanguardLH - Wed, 16 Mar 2022 01:41 UTC

Lars Anders wrote:

> On 15 Mar 2022, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote :
>
>> I see no reason to jump
>> out of Dialog to find relevant newsgroups.
>
> I understand concerns.
>
> Outside of filter/search would it work to read in all newsgroups from
> server 1 and then edit gtl file for server 1 & delete all groups not
> needed?
>
> Open Dialog
> Read in all groups in aioe server
> Close Dialog
> Notepad++ aioe.gtl
> Delete newsgroups not wanted
> Save aioe.gtl
> Open Dialog
>
> Would that gtl edit work as simplify list of newsgroups in "All" tab?

I don't see the point of deleting locally cached newsgroup names for a
server. The moment you ever have to requery the server, all those
newsgroups you deleted will reappear.

Folks, and even I, cannot find a newsgroup that others have noted.
Could be their NNTP server has newsgroups that are not peered to the
NNTPs server that I use, but only happens for private NNTP server (those
that don't peer to Usenet, like news.grc.com, or companies that use NNTP
for internal communication). That's because the noted newsgroup was
added to the server after the last time Dialog queried the server to
sync its list of newsgroups. To get at the new newsgroups (not the same
as getting new messages in newsgroups), you use:

Online menu -> Get complete grouplists
or -> Update grouplists

The client and server can get out of sync as to the newsgroups list. If
others are seeing a newsgroup you cannot, you need to refresh the
client's local cache of newsgroups names. You'll do a lot of editing to
remove unwanted newsgroups in the locally cached list of newsgroups, but
that might not be in sync with the server, so later you have to sync
them up again, and all those newsgroups you removed will show up again.

Um, just where are you finding .gtl files for Dialog? I don't have any
..gtl files under Dialog's program folder. I don't have any .gtl files
anywhere on my computer. What version of Dialog are you using?

You mention an aioe.gtl file. Not only do I not find any .gtl file(s),
but I don't find any in Dialog's folder or subfolders that have the
server's name as the filename.

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
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 by: VanguardLH - Wed, 16 Mar 2022 01:45 UTC

Quinn C wrote:

> I use the Outbox all the time for Usenet. I leave posts
> there for a while, then re-read, edit, sometimes delete them.

Messages that hang in the Outbox folder are those that failed to get
sent to the NNTP server, and the client fails to retry a send on those
messages. Messages you compose but do not send should be in the Drafts
folder.

Outbox is where a new message to send gets temporarily saved until the
client does a send. Normally when you send, the newly composed message
briefly appears in the Outbox, because it is from that folder that the
client sends a copy to the server, and the client should then delete the
copy in the Outbox folder. Drafts is where you hold messages until
you're ready to do a send.

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

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From: b.rose.t...@arcor.de (Bernd Rose)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 20:51:10 +0100
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 by: Bernd Rose - Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:51 UTC

On Tue, 15th Mar 2022 15:46:55 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

>>> There is no automatic downloading of article bodies in Dialog.
>>
>> Huh? <Default/Selected Group Options> -> <Retrieving>
>
> There is no setting there on a polling interval.

I thought you referred to the bodies (in direct combination with the
headers), not to automatic downloading in general.

>>> I'm sure besides script using functions to work with subscribed
>>> newsgroups that there are built-in functions in Dialog that only work
>>> with subscribed newsgroups.
>>
>> I'm not so sure. - But to lazy to test, atm. ;-)
>>
>> "Get new headers in subscribed groups" actually is "Get new headers in
>> subscribed/categorized groups", for instance.
>
> The help mentions using ADo('GetNewHeadersInSubscribedGroups') for event
> scripts. No mention of a function to get headers in selected
> newsgroups, because there wouldn't be any selected when the event runs.

Just checked <Online> -> <Get new headers in subscribed groups>. It
retrieved all new headers from every group of the currently active
category tab. (Regardless of the group subscription state.)

Bernd

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From: b.rose.t...@arcor.de (Bernd Rose)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
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 by: Bernd Rose - Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:59 UTC

On Tue, 15th Mar 2022 23:26:11 +0100, Lars Anders wrote:

> would it work to read in all newsgroups from server 1 and then edit gtl
> file for server 1 & delete all groups not needed?

It is /very/ dangerous to meddle with files from the Dialog database using
external programs. Most context is index-based. If you delete entry 10,
for instance, every index larger or equal 10 will point to a wrong entry.

Bernd

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
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 by: VanguardLH - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 02:05 UTC

Quinn C wrote:

> * VanguardLH:
>
>> Quinn C wrote:
>>
>>> I use the Outbox all the time for Usenet. I leave posts
>>> there for a while, then re-read, edit, sometimes delete them.
>>
>> Messages that hang in the Outbox folder are those that failed to get
>> sent to the NNTP server, and the client fails to retry a send on those
>> messages. Messages you compose but do not send should be in the Drafts
>> folder.
>>
>> Outbox is where a new message to send gets temporarily saved until the
>> client does a send.
>
> That sounds like a setup with an automatic send routine. I don't have
> that. Either I click Send on a message right away, or I use Online >
> Send all messages in outbox, manually.

Nope. While composing a new message, a copy gets saved into the Drafts
folder. Dialog doesn't have an option to specify at what interval while
composing the new content gets saved as a copy in the Drafts folder.
For Dialog, existing the compose dialog has it prompt if you want to
save the message. If so, it gets saved in the Drafts folder.

When you click the Send button, the client saves the message in the
Outbox, because it is that copy the client will submit to the server
during the send. While composing, and even if interrupting the compose,
the Drafts folder is where drafts gets saved hence the name of the
folder. When sending (manual or automatic), the message goes into the
Outbox folder. Why? The send operation may fail. Instead of relying
on some temp copy of the message (which will disappear when the client
gets unloaded), the copy in the Outbox folder represents what you
intended to send, and will be available on the next send (if no errors
occur that time).

For example, while composing a message, you could lose Internet
connectivity. You cannot send the message you were composing. Where
would the client find that message on the next attempt send? In the
Outbox folder where was the copy it tried to send before.

If a send operation takes a long time, like you are sending tons of
messages at a time, or they are huge, the send operation may take long
enough for you to see the message to send goes into the Outbox, and upon
successful send that copy disappears.

Some clients have the option to Send Later. The message still goes into
the Outbox folder, but the client attempts a send operation at a later
time. This is similar to when you lose Internet connectivity, so the
send fails, but a later send will retry the messages sitting in the
Outbox folder.

I don't use any automatic or scripted send operation. I click on the
Send button in the compose window. That puts the message in the Outbox,
tries to send it to the server, and removes that copy if the send is
successful. If the send fails, I can try another send later, because
the message is still sitting in the Outbox folder where the client
expects to find messages it is told to send.

If you save a message in the Outbox folder, it could get sent before you
are done editing it. The Drafts folder is where you put messages you
intend to send, but haven't yet sent which allows you to modify them
before sending them. Outbox is for messages that are in the sending
process until eventually (now or later) are successfully sent. Drafts
is the folder you hold messages you have not yet determined to send as
you might need to do more research to update the message. Outbox is
"ready to send". Drafts is "I'm still editing".

If a message gets stuck in the Outbox, the send failed (if a send has
been attempted), and awaits the next send that is successful. Messages
in Drafts hang around regardless of how many successful send operations
have been performed.

> Thanks, I've been using Dialog for about 20 years, and my setup works
> fine. 20 years means that at the very beginning, I was still on Dialup,
> so it was a completely normal procedure to put posts ready to send in
> the Outbox until they get sent - which could be hours later.

No. Messages in the Outbox folder were sent on the next successful send
operation. So, you were manually initiating the sends while piling up
messages in the Outbox folder. It happened to work similar to the
Drafts folder because of how you held off sending until when you chose,
and did so manually. Normally when you click the Send button, the send
operation starts *now*. Your method batches up the sends until whenever
the next send operation starts. The scenario works for how you used
Dialog, but your method is not the intention for the Outbox folder.

Are you in Online mode when you click the Send button in the compose
dialog?

If I want to emulate a Send Later operation, I wouldn't leave message in
the Outbox folder. Anytime I committed a send operation, the Outbox
messages would get sent, not sometime later when I was ready to send
them. Messages in the Outbox folder are susceptible to whenever is the
next successful send operation. Message in the Drafts folder are not,
as those hang around however long I want whether it be minutes, hours,
days, or weeks.

Your method works for you, but it seems you are batching up your sends
to whenever you go online and commit a send operation. You really
aren't planning on when they get sent, but just whenever to commit a
sent which then has all messages in the Outbox get sent. I don't batch
my sends. I do sends now. For messages I don't want to send whenever I
happen to do a send on any one of them, those go in Drafts.

From the help, "The composition window that you see when you create a
new draft". You don't send from the Drafts folder. This is where
pending messages get stored. You haven't yet decided to send or not.
In comparison, messages in Outbox are susceptible to whenever is the
next send operation. They are ready to send. Once you send, they
aren't there to edit, anymore. Storing messages in Outbox has them get
yanked away before you're ready. You might be editing a message in the
Outbox, and then a send starts (because of a scheduled send, manually
instigated send, or using Send in another compose window). The rug gets
pulled out from underneath you while you were still trying to update the
other message. I don't know that Dialog suspends sends on opened
messages in the Outbox during a send operation.

Your scheme works how you expect because of how you use it, but your
scheme is not an expected one. If you're not doing immediate sends but
instead batching them up, those message are vulnerable versus using
Drafts. In the Outbox, they can disappear before your ready to actually
send them. I tend to follow the same sending procedures as used in
e-mail clients, so I don't trip over my behavior in trying to use the
Outbox in lieu of Drafts.

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:47:04 -0500
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 by: VanguardLH - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 02:47 UTC

VanguardLH wrote:

> Quinn C wrote:
>
>> * VanguardLH:
>>
>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>
>>>> I use the Outbox all the time for Usenet. I leave posts
>>>> there for a while, then re-read, edit, sometimes delete them.
>>>
>>> Messages that hang in the Outbox folder are those that failed to get
>>> sent to the NNTP server, and the client fails to retry a send on those
>>> messages. Messages you compose but do not send should be in the Drafts
>>> folder.
>>>
>>> Outbox is where a new message to send gets temporarily saved until the
>>> client does a send.
>>
>> That sounds like a setup with an automatic send routine. I don't have
>> that. Either I click Send on a message right away, or I use Online >
>> Send all messages in outbox, manually.
>
> Nope. While composing a new message, a copy gets saved into the Drafts
> folder. Dialog doesn't have an option to specify at what interval while
> composing the new content gets saved as a copy in the Drafts folder.
> For Dialog, existing the compose dialog has it prompt if you want to
> save the message. If so, it gets saved in the Drafts folder.
>
> When you click the Send button, the client saves the message in the
> Outbox, because it is that copy the client will submit to the server
> during the send. While composing, and even if interrupting the compose,
> the Drafts folder is where drafts gets saved hence the name of the
> folder. When sending (manual or automatic), the message goes into the
> Outbox folder. Why? The send operation may fail. Instead of relying
> on some temp copy of the message (which will disappear when the client
> gets unloaded), the copy in the Outbox folder represents what you
> intended to send, and will be available on the next send (if no errors
> occur that time).
>
> For example, while composing a message, you could lose Internet
> connectivity. You cannot send the message you were composing. Where
> would the client find that message on the next attempt send? In the
> Outbox folder where was the copy it tried to send before.
>
> If a send operation takes a long time, like you are sending tons of
> messages at a time, or they are huge, the send operation may take long
> enough for you to see the message to send goes into the Outbox, and upon
> successful send that copy disappears.
>
> Some clients have the option to Send Later. The message still goes into
> the Outbox folder, but the client attempts a send operation at a later
> time. This is similar to when you lose Internet connectivity, so the
> send fails, but a later send will retry the messages sitting in the
> Outbox folder.
>
> I don't use any automatic or scripted send operation. I click on the
> Send button in the compose window. That puts the message in the Outbox,
> tries to send it to the server, and removes that copy if the send is
> successful. If the send fails, I can try another send later, because
> the message is still sitting in the Outbox folder where the client
> expects to find messages it is told to send.
>
> If you save a message in the Outbox folder, it could get sent before you
> are done editing it. The Drafts folder is where you put messages you
> intend to send, but haven't yet sent which allows you to modify them
> before sending them. Outbox is for messages that are in the sending
> process until eventually (now or later) are successfully sent. Drafts
> is the folder you hold messages you have not yet determined to send as
> you might need to do more research to update the message. Outbox is
> "ready to send". Drafts is "I'm still editing".
>
> If a message gets stuck in the Outbox, the send failed (if a send has
> been attempted), and awaits the next send that is successful. Messages
> in Drafts hang around regardless of how many successful send operations
> have been performed.
>
>> Thanks, I've been using Dialog for about 20 years, and my setup works
>> fine. 20 years means that at the very beginning, I was still on Dialup,
>> so it was a completely normal procedure to put posts ready to send in
>> the Outbox until they get sent - which could be hours later.
>
> No. Messages in the Outbox folder were sent on the next successful send
> operation. So, you were manually initiating the sends while piling up
> messages in the Outbox folder. It happened to work similar to the
> Drafts folder because of how you held off sending until when you chose,
> and did so manually. Normally when you click the Send button, the send
> operation starts *now*. Your method batches up the sends until whenever
> the next send operation starts. The scenario works for how you used
> Dialog, but your method is not the intention for the Outbox folder.
>
> Are you in Online mode when you click the Send button in the compose
> dialog?
>
> If I want to emulate a Send Later operation, I wouldn't leave message in
> the Outbox folder. Anytime I committed a send operation, the Outbox
> messages would get sent, not sometime later when I was ready to send
> them. Messages in the Outbox folder are susceptible to whenever is the
> next successful send operation. Message in the Drafts folder are not,
> as those hang around however long I want whether it be minutes, hours,
> days, or weeks.
>
> Your method works for you, but it seems you are batching up your sends
> to whenever you go online and commit a send operation. You really
> aren't planning on when they get sent, but just whenever to commit a
> sent which then has all messages in the Outbox get sent. I don't batch
> my sends. I do sends now. For messages I don't want to send whenever I
> happen to do a send on any one of them, those go in Drafts.
>
> From the help, "The composition window that you see when you create a
> new draft". You don't send from the Drafts folder. This is where
> pending messages get stored. You haven't yet decided to send or not.
> In comparison, messages in Outbox are susceptible to whenever is the
> next send operation. They are ready to send. Once you send, they
> aren't there to edit, anymore. Storing messages in Outbox has them get
> yanked away before you're ready. You might be editing a message in the
> Outbox, and then a send starts (because of a scheduled send, manually
> instigated send, or using Send in another compose window). The rug gets
> pulled out from underneath you while you were still trying to update the
> other message. I don't know that Dialog suspends sends on opened
> messages in the Outbox during a send operation.
>
> Your scheme works how you expect because of how you use it, but your
> scheme is not an expected one. If you're not doing immediate sends but
> instead batching them up, those message are vulnerable versus using
> Drafts. In the Outbox, they can disappear before your ready to actually
> send them. I tend to follow the same sending procedures as used in
> e-mail clients, so I don't trip over my behavior in trying to use the
> Outbox in lieu of Drafts.

In addition (oh, won't he ever shut up!) ...

I started using (or trialing) Dialog around 2002 (also 20 years ago). I
think that was the v.38 build. Then I went to the v.41 build (maybe
sometime 2005), and then a v.84 update that screwed up Dialog (too long
ago to remember why), and I had to revert to the v.41 build. I've used
the Send, Drafts, and Outbox folders just how they're intended in all
other clients, and do the same in Dialog.

I think the big difference is you batch up your sends, but I send
immediately. When I click the Send button in the compose dialog, I
expect an immediate send operation. This is not an automated send, as
in a scheduled or scripted send operation. I've never had to use the
Send menu -> Send all messages in outbox. Sent messages don't pile up,
for me, in the Outbox. The immediately go into the Outbox, and then
disappear on a successful send. They only sit there if the send failed,
so I'll have to try another send (I just open the draft copy and use the
Send button again) when the server becomes responsive, or I regain
Internet connectivity.

I'm guessing the difference is I click on "Send this draft now" button
in the toolbar of the compose window, but you must use the "Send this
draft later (move it to Outbox)". I send now. If I move to Outbox
(send later), I'm not sure it will get sent or when, because I may not
remember that I have to use "Online -> Send all messages in Outbox".
I'd have to perform 2 actions to start the send instead of 1 action.
Plus, if I batch up my sends (i.e., send later), I could end up sending
a message long after other replies have shown up to make my reply
irrelevant, out of sync with the discussion, or out of date. Someone
asks "Is the door open?", and I reply "Yes", but, with send later, that
reply shows up many minutes, hours, or days later after several other
respondents have said "No", because the door got closed after I compose
my reply but before my reply showed up using send later. While NNTP is
not a chat protocol providing immediacy in communication, timing is
still important in the communication. Send Later could be too late.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

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From: larsande...@glocalnet.se (Lars Anders)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:32:24 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t0v688$1t3a$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Lars Anders - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 11:32 UTC

On 16 Mar 2022, Bernd Rose <b.rose.tmpbox@arcor.de> wrote :

> Just checked <Online> -> <Get new headers in subscribed groups>. It
> retrieved all new headers from every group of the currently active
> category tab. (Regardless of the group subscription state.)

This explain why "subscribe" not always need by me! :->
Category work good!
No need to "subscribe," :->

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

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From: larsande...@glocalnet.se (Lars Anders)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:32:34 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t0v68h$1t3m$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Lars Anders - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 11:32 UTC

On 16 Mar 2022, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote :

> For Dialog, existing the compose dialog has it prompt if you want to
> save the message. If so, it gets saved in the Drafts folder.

This is trick. If you keep Drafts visible copy is saved I think.
If you keep Drafts not visible copy is not saved until you saved I think.

> When you click the Send button, the client saves the message in the
> Outbox, because it is that copy the client will submit to the server
> during the send.

Warning. If you keep Outbox open while hit send then open message it is
blank! Careful be! Some kind of "temporary swap" happen. Maybe bug?

> When sending (manual or automatic), the message goes into the
> Outbox folder. Why? The send operation may fail.

Yes. Many time it fail and then go in Outbox on my network is not good.

> Instead of relying
> on some temp copy of the message (which will disappear when the client
> gets unloaded), the copy in the Outbox folder represents what you
> intended to send, and will be available on the next send (if no errors
> occur that time).

Rare. But sometimes need Send because server does not post.
Rare it is.

> If you save a message in the Outbox folder, it could get sent before you
> are done editing it. The Drafts folder is where you put messages you
> intend to send, but haven't yet sent which allows you to modify them
> before sending them.

I am in always online mode.
I Sent messages manual.
Never automatic.

Drafts is messy for me to saved messages "to be sent later."
Too many Drafts filled with many old "()" empty message header.
Outbox is where I saved many messages to Sent at later dates.

Wrong use model I know.
But Drafts is too many trash inside.

> Storing messages in Outbox has them get
> yanked away before you're ready.

Not when sent each messages manual & individual.
That is my use model.
Work good for me.

Wrong use model for you.
Is ok.

> You might be editing a message in the
> Outbox, and then a send starts (because of a scheduled send, manually
> instigated send, or using Send in another compose window). The rug gets
> pulled out from underneath you while you were still trying to update the
> other message.

Yes. Tricky. Dangerous. I seen this happen many time. Must be careful.
Your use model better.
But Drafts too messy for me.
Many "()" headers of no data.

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

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From: addr...@not.available (R.Wieser)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 03:54:04 +0100
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 by: R.Wieser - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 02:54 UTC

Hello all, William, Carlos, VanguardLH,

> I'm guessing the difference is I click on "Send this draft now" button
> in the toolbar of the compose window, but you must use the "Send this
> draft later (move it to Outbox)". I send now.

This is why I've always said you are an asshole.

Somehow I always get the feeling that whomever is asking a question you have
your own beef to grind. So, whats your beef this time?

I don't trust you.
You keep re-affirming that with every contortion you make.

Goodbye (otherwise you will keep yip-yapping until like forever).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 01:24:24 -0500
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 by: VanguardLH - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 06:24 UTC

R.Wieser wrote:

> Hello all, William, Carlos, VanguardLH,
>
>> I'm guessing the difference is I click on "Send this draft now" button
>> in the toolbar of the compose window, but you must use the "Send this
>> draft later (move it to Outbox)". I send now.
>
> This is why I've always said you are an asshole.
>
> Somehow I always get the feeling that whomever is asking a question you have
> your own beef to grind. So, whats your beef this time?
>
> I don't trust you.
> You keep re-affirming that with every contortion you make.
>
> Goodbye (otherwise you will keep yip-yapping until like forever).
>
> Regards,
> Rudy Wieser

Yep, I'm stalker worthy. Wiener found me again.

Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories

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Subject: Re: (Dialog) TAB order - Subscribed : All : New : Folders : Filtered : categories
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:21:07 +0100
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 by: R.Wieser - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:21 UTC

VanguardLH

> Yep, I'm stalker worthy. Wiener found me again.

Which proves you are an asshole. Everyone say so. Not just me.
Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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