On 2023-09-22 11:34 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked. For instance, the
> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
> of stars & planets.

Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of
mathematical converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could
be... Archie Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding. Of course, that's
the mathematical constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value
(e.g. the ratio between the circumference and diameter of a circle)
depending on the curvature of space.

Joel

In article <5902752a-4c6c-4300-a5cf-f0c9cc481999@sympatico.ca>,
Joel Polowin <jpolowin@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>On 2023-09-22 11:34 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked. For instance, the
>> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
>> of stars & planets.
>
>Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of
>mathematical converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could
>be... Archie Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding. Of course, that's
>the mathematical constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value
>(e.g. the ratio between the circumference and diameter of a circle)
>depending on the curvature of space.
>
>Joel

Well, the context is that Professor Liad calls out the value as a
adjustment factor during the inter-universal transversal, and it apparently
means nothhing to anyone else in the crew (who are all mathy spacers
themselves).
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Sunday, 22 October 2023 at 21:45:06 UTC+1, Joel Polowin wrote:
> On 2023-09-22 11:34 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked. For instance, the
> > value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
> > of stars & planets.
>
> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of
> mathematical converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could
> be... Archie Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding. Of course, that's
> the mathematical constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value
> (e.g. the ratio between the circumference and diameter of a circle)
> depending on the curvature of space.

I've probably complained enough about different values
of pi in fiction, but if I have to do it again, I'm prepared to.

I indulged myself yesterday looking at the latest
comicbook adventures of the _Fantastic Four_...
which I decided to leave in the shop, for now.

Spoilers -

In _Fantastic Four_ #11, Ben Grimm wakes
up alone in an extraordinary situation which
he gradually notices is physically inconsistent...
and each time he notices something that's off,
it is corrected. If I read again, I may find that
he's just taking his time to "notice" problems
while finding his way out of the situation.

In _Fantastic Four_ #12, which is a
completely separate story, the whole team
are pulled into a parallel universe where all
Marvel Comics characters are dinosaur
versions of themselves. The dinosaur
Fantastic Four have (probably?) gone the
other way. Combat ensues, then the heroes
get to discussing the physical constants of
each universe - but happily not including pi,
I think. Less happily - the universes are
colliding. Again.

On 22/10/2023 15.42, Joel Polowin wrote:
> On 2023-09-22 11:34 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked.  For instance, the
>> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
>> of stars & planets.
>
> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of mathematical converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could be... Archie Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding.  Of course, that's the mathematical constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value (e.g. the ratio between the circumference and diameter of a circle) depending on the curvature of space.

Of course, in anything other than flat, Euclidean space, the ratio
of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is not constant, but
depends on its diameter (at least) and position (in a negatively
curved space, I think).

--
Michael F. Stemper
Economists have correctly predicted seven of the last three recessions.

Among the things Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Sunday, 22 October 2023 at 21:45:06 UTC+1, Joel Polowin wrote:
> > On 2023-09-22 11:34 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > > That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked. For instance, the
> > > value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
> > > of stars & planets.
> >
> > Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of
> > mathematical converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could
> > be... Archie Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding. Of course, that's
> > the mathematical constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value
> > (e.g. the ratio between the circumference and diameter of a circle)
> > depending on the curvature of space.
> I've probably complained enough about different values
> of pi in fiction, but if I have to do it again, I'm prepared to.

What's that about Google spying on everything I read and watch online?

Just yesterday Matt Parker's Stand-Up Maths channel posted a video "Why does Vegas have its own value of pi?" 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPL8pM8Xkw
Nerds nerding out to a satisfactory conclusion.

--
-Jack

On 26/10/2023 09.42, Jack Bohn wrote:
> Among the things Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> On Sunday, 22 October 2023 at 21:45:06 UTC+1, Joel Polowin wrote:

>>> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of
>>> mathematical converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could
>>> be... Archie Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding. Of course, that's
>>> the mathematical constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value
>>> (e.g. the ratio between the circumference and diameter of a circle)
>>> depending on the curvature of space.
>> I've probably complained enough about different values
>> of pi in fiction, but if I have to do it again, I'm prepared to.
>
> What's that about Google spying on everything I read and watch online?
>
> Just yesterday Matt Parker's Stand-Up Maths channel posted a video "Why does Vegas have its own value of pi?"

One might think that it was a "Parker Pi".

--
Michael F. Stemper
Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding;
Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind.

-------- Original Message --------
> In article <5902752a-4c6c-4300-a5cf-f0c9cc481999@sympatico.ca>,
> Joel Polowin <jpolowin@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> On 2023-09-22 11:34 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>>> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked. For instance, the
>>> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
>>> of stars & planets.
>>
>> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of
>> mathematical converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could
>> be... Archie Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding. Of course, that's
>> the mathematical constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value
>> (e.g. the ratio between the circumference and diameter of a circle)
>> depending on the curvature of space.
>>
>> Joel
>
> Well, the context is that Professor Liad calls out the value as a
> adjustment factor during the inter-universal transversal, and it apparently
> means nothhing to anyone else in the crew (who are all mathy spacers
> themselves).
>
I feel pretty confident that PI does not change with the curvature of
space-time.

--
..

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:45:26 PM UTC-4, meagain wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> > In article <5902752a-4c6c-4300...@sympatico.ca>,
> > Joel Polowin <jpol...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >> On 2023-09-22 11:34 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> >>> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked. For instance, the
> >>> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
> >>> of stars & planets.
> >>
> >> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of
> >> mathematical converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could
> >> be... Archie Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding. Of course, that's
> >> the mathematical constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value
> >> (e.g. the ratio between the circumference and diameter of a circle)
> >> depending on the curvature of space.
> >>
> >> Joel
> >
> > Well, the context is that Professor Liad calls out the value as a
> > adjustment factor during the inter-universal transversal, and it apparently
> > means nothhing to anyone else in the crew (who are all mathy spacers
> > themselves).
> >
> I feel pretty confident that PI does not change with the curvature of
> space-time.

The ratio between the radius of a circle and its circumference can change
as space is distorted.

The radius of a black hole is infinite, while the diameter remains finite.

Pt

On 30/10/2023 17.57, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:45:26 PM UTC-4, meagain wrote:

>> I feel pretty confident that PI does not change with the curvature of
>> space-time.
>
> The ratio between the radius of a circle and its circumference can change
> as space is distorted.

In other words, it is no longer pi.

> The radius of a black hole is infinite, while the diameter remains finite.

Its circumference remains finite.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 58:6-7

On 10/31/2023 6:12 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 30/10/2023 17.57, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:45:26 PM UTC-4, meagain wrote:
>
>>> I feel pretty confident that PI does not change with the curvature of
>>> space-time.
>>
>> The ratio between the radius of a circle and its circumference can change
>> as space is distorted.
>
> In other words, it is no longer pi.
>
>> The radius of a black hole is infinite, while the diameter remains
>> finite.
>
> Its circumference remains finite.
>
I'm not even getting past him saying infinity doubled is finite.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Michael wrote:
> Joel Polowin wrote:
>> Ted wrote:
>>> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked.  For instance, the
>>> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
>>> of stars & planets.
>>
>> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of mathematical
>> converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could be... Archie
>> Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding.  Of course, that's the mathematical
>> constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value (e.g. the ratio between
>> the circumference and diameter of a circle) depending on the curvature of
>> space.
>
> Of course, in anything other than flat, Euclidean space, the ratio
> of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is not constant, but
> depends on its diameter (at least) and position (in a negatively
> curved space, I think).

Allow me to use the groups as an adhoc classroom. Let me know if my pi
pertinent philosophy shown below doesn't make sense.
The ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is an
observable fact. And accordingly associated with Aristotlean thought.
OTOH, notions of non-Euclidean space are Platonic. And non-
Euclidean space Platonically pulls pi apart to the breaking point?

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

On 10/31/2023 9:39 AM, Don wrote:
> Michael wrote:
>> Joel Polowin wrote:
>>> Ted wrote:
>>>> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked.  For instance, the
>>>> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
>>>> of stars & planets.
>>>
>>> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of mathematical
>>> converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could be... Archie
>>> Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding.  Of course, that's the mathematical
>>> constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value (e.g. the ratio between
>>> the circumference and diameter of a circle) depending on the curvature of
>>> space.
>>
>> Of course, in anything other than flat, Euclidean space, the ratio
>> of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is not constant, but
>> depends on its diameter (at least) and position (in a negatively
>> curved space, I think).
>
> Allow me to use the groups as an adhoc classroom. Let me know if my pi
> pertinent philosophy shown below doesn't make sense.
> The ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is an
> observable fact. And accordingly associated with Aristotlean thought.
> OTOH, notions of non-Euclidean space are Platonic. And non-
> Euclidean space Platonically pulls pi apart to the breaking point?
>
Purely thought experiment until such time as we can observe
non-Euclidean space to conduct actual experiments.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

-------- Original Message --------
> On 10/31/2023 6:12 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 30/10/2023 17.57, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:45:26 PM UTC-4, meagain wrote:
>>
>>>> I feel pretty confident that PI does not change with the curvature of
>>>> space-time.
>>>
>>> The ratio between the radius of a circle and its circumference can
>>> change
>>> as space is distorted.
>>
>> In other words, it is no longer pi.
>>
>>> The radius of a black hole is infinite, while the diameter remains
>>> finite.
>>
>> Its circumference remains finite.
>>
> I'm not even getting past his saying infinity doubled is finite.
>

Well, mathematicians have recently proved that there is a minimum size
for a mobius loop, so that ought to demonstrate something.

--
.

On Tuesday, 31 October 2023 at 19:06:53 UTC, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 10/31/2023 9:39 AM, Don wrote:
> > Michael wrote:
> >> Joel Polowin wrote:
> >>> Ted wrote:
> >>>> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked. For instance, the
> >>>> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
> >>>> of stars & planets.
> >>>
> >>> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of mathematical
> >>> converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could be... Archie
> >>> Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding. Of course, that's the mathematical
> >>> constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value (e.g. the ratio between
> >>> the circumference and diameter of a circle) depending on the curvature of
> >>> space.
> >>
> >> Of course, in anything other than flat, Euclidean space, the ratio
> >> of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is not constant, but
> >> depends on its diameter (at least) and position (in a negatively
> >> curved space, I think).
> >
> > Allow me to use the groups as an adhoc classroom. Let me know if my pi
> > pertinent philosophy shown below doesn't make sense.
> > The ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is an
> > observable fact. And accordingly associated with Aristotlean thought.
> > OTOH, notions of non-Euclidean space are Platonic. And non-
> > Euclidean space Platonically pulls pi apart to the breaking point?
> >
> Purely thought experiment until such time as we can observe
> non-Euclidean space to conduct actual experiments.

Since Einstein, we're living in non-Euclidean
space. I think it goes as far as planets
moving in "straight lines" that just happen to
become ellipses because spacetime is bendy.

On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:59:07 PM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Tuesday, 31 October 2023 at 19:06:53 UTC, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > On 10/31/2023 9:39 AM, Don wrote:
> > > Michael wrote:
> > >> Joel Polowin wrote:
> > >>> Ted wrote:
> > >>>> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked. For instance, the
> > >>>> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
> > >>>> of stars & planets.
> > >>>
> > >>> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of mathematical
> > >>> converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could be... Archie
> > >>> Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding. Of course, that's the mathematical
> > >>> constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value (e.g. the ratio between
> > >>> the circumference and diameter of a circle) depending on the curvature of
> > >>> space.
> > >>
> > >> Of course, in anything other than flat, Euclidean space, the ratio
> > >> of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is not constant, but
> > >> depends on its diameter (at least) and position (in a negatively
> > >> curved space, I think).
> > >
> > > Allow me to use the groups as an adhoc classroom. Let me know if my pi
> > > pertinent philosophy shown below doesn't make sense.
> > > The ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is an
> > > observable fact. And accordingly associated with Aristotlean thought.
> > > OTOH, notions of non-Euclidean space are Platonic. And non-
> > > Euclidean space Platonically pulls pi apart to the breaking point?
> > >
> > Purely thought experiment until such time as we can observe
> > non-Euclidean space to conduct actual experiments.
> Since Einstein, we're living in non-Euclidean
> space. I think it goes as far as planets
> moving in "straight lines" that just happen to
> become ellipses because spacetime is bendy.

This is correct.

Pt

"Magic Burns (Kate Daniels Book 2)" by Ilona Andrews
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0441015832/

Book number two of a ten book paranormal romance dark fantasy series. I
read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Ace in 2008 that
I bought new on Amazon recently. Note that “Ilona Andrews” is the
pseudonym for a husband and wife writing team. I have ordered books
three, four, and five in the series.

Kate Daniels's universe sucks. Forty years ago, the tech world crashed
over the entire Earth and was replaced by the magic world in the form of
a magic flare. Guns don't work, car don't work, electricity and phones
do not work. But magic works. Good magic and bad magic.

After a week, the tech world came back to a drastically changed world.
And radically fewer humans. And the magic world came back after a
while. And the tech world came back after that. And so on and so forth.

Kate Daniels is a mercenary. And she is a current member of the Order
of Knights of Merciful Aid despite her dropping out earlier in life.
She carries a large magic sword. And many knives. And she has magic
blood. And another magic flare is coming.

I liked everything about the story. I especially liked the very clear
distinction between the tech time and the magic time. I had never
thought about it that way. The series may be inspired by "Ariel" by
Steven Boyett and "Dies The Fire" by S. M. Stirling except those never
interchange the tech time and the magic time, they just transitioned to
the magic time.

The authors have a website at:
https://www.ilona-andrews.com

My rating: 4.5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.6 out of 5 stars (9,448 reviews)

Lynn

On 10/31/2023 10:44 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 10/31/2023 6:12 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 30/10/2023 17.57, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:45:26 PM UTC-4, meagain wrote:
>>
>>>> I feel pretty confident that PI does not change with the curvature of
>>>> space-time.
>>>
>>> The ratio between the radius of a circle and its circumference can
>>> change
>>> as space is distorted.
>>
>> In other words, it is no longer pi.
>>
>>> The radius of a black hole is infinite, while the diameter remains
>>> finite.
>>
>> Its circumference remains finite.
>>
> I'm not even getting past him saying infinity doubled is finite.

I think that Pete is saying that a black hole has a throat of infinite
length and that the center point is "way down there". Wow, maybe
Disney's The Black Hole did have some science basis to it.

Lynn

On 10/31/2023 9:47 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/31/2023 10:44 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 10/31/2023 6:12 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>> On 30/10/2023 17.57, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:45:26 PM UTC-4, meagain wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I feel pretty confident that PI does not change with the curvature of
>>>>> space-time.
>>>>
>>>> The ratio between the radius of a circle and its circumference can
>>>> change
>>>> as space is distorted.
>>>
>>> In other words, it is no longer pi.
>>>
>>>> The radius of a black hole is infinite, while the diameter remains
>>>> finite.
>>>
>>> Its circumference remains finite.
>>>
>> I'm not even getting past him saying infinity doubled is finite.
>
> I think that Pete is saying that a black hole has a throat of infinite
> length and that the center point is "way down there".  Wow, maybe
> Disney's The Black Hole did have some science basis to it.
>
There has been speculation that black holes are also wormholes or
inter-universe transit routes for pretty much as long as we've accepted
that black holes are real. But speculation is all it is as our current
physics breaks down at a BH event horizon.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <uhslld$1f39q$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 10/31/2023 9:47 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/31/2023 10:44 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 10/31/2023 6:12 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>> On 30/10/2023 17.57, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:45:26 PM UTC-4, meagain wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I feel pretty confident that PI does not change with the curvature of
>>>>>> space-time.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ratio between the radius of a circle and its circumference can
>>>>> change
>>>>> as space is distorted.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, it is no longer pi.
>>>>
>>>>> The radius of a black hole is infinite, while the diameter remains
>>>>> finite.
>>>>
>>>> Its circumference remains finite.
>>>>
>>> I'm not even getting past him saying infinity doubled is finite.
>>
>> I think that Pete is saying that a black hole has a throat of infinite
>> length and that the center point is "way down there".  Wow, maybe
>> Disney's The Black Hole did have some science basis to it.
>>
>There has been speculation that black holes are also wormholes or
>inter-universe transit routes for pretty much as long as we've accepted
>that black holes are real. But speculation is all it is as our current
>physics breaks down at a BH event horizon.
>

Is this (from Asimov) still operant?

It is quite possible, then, that the entire universe is
itself a black hole (as has been suggested by the physicist
Kip Thorne).

If it is, then very likely it has always been a black hole
and will always be a black hole. If that is so, we live
within a black hole, and if we want to know what conditions
are like in a black hole (provided it is extremely massive),
we have but to look around.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

pete wrote:
> Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> > On 10/31/2023 9:39 AM, Don wrote:
>> > > Michael wrote:
>> > >> Joel Polowin wrote:
>> > >>> Ted wrote:
>> > >>>> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked. For instance, the
>> > >>>> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set

>> > >>>> of stars & planets.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of mathematical
>> > >>> converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could be... Archie
>> > >>> Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding. Of course, that's the mathematical
>> > >>> constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value (e.g. the ratio between
>> > >>> the circumference and diameter of a circle) depending on the curvature of
>> > >>> space.
>> > >>
>> > >> Of course, in anything other than flat, Euclidean space, the ratio
>> > >> of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is not constant, but
>> > >> depends on its diameter (at least) and position (in a negatively
>> > >> curved space, I think).
>> > >
>> > > Allow me to use the groups as an adhoc classroom. Let me know if my pi
>> > > pertinent philosophy shown below doesn't make sense.
>> > > The ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is an
>> > > observable fact. And accordingly associated with Aristotlean thought.
>> > > OTOH, notions of non-Euclidean space are Platonic. And non-
>> > > Euclidean space Platonically pulls pi apart to the breaking point?
>> > >
>> > Purely thought experiment until such time as we can observe
>> > non-Euclidean space to conduct actual experiments.
>> Since Einstein, we're living in non-Euclidean
>> space. I think it goes as far as planets
>> moving in "straight lines" that just happen to
>> become ellipses because spacetime is bendy.
>
> This is correct.

From a purely Platonic perspective perhaps?

quantum mechanics would appear to be in the strange position of
agreeing with all observations made, while disputing that any
observations can actually be made at all.

_Alice in Quantumland_ (Gilmore)

It's insane isn't it?

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

-------- Original Message --------
> On 10/31/2023 9:39 AM, Don wrote:
>> Michael wrote:
>>> Joel Polowin wrote:
>>>> Ted wrote:
>>>>> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked.  For instance, the
>>>>> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
>>>>> of stars & planets.
>>>>
>>>> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of
>>>> mathematical
>>>> converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could be...
>>>> Archie
>>>> Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding.  Of course, that's the
>>>> mathematical
>>>> constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value (e.g. the ratio
>>>> between
>>>> the circumference and diameter of a circle) depending on the
>>>> curvature of
>>>> space.
>>>
>>> Of course, in anything other than flat, Euclidean space, the ratio
>>> of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is not constant, but
>>> depends on its diameter (at least) and position (in a negatively
>>> curved space, I think).
>>
>> Allow me to use the groups as an adhoc classroom. Let me know if my pi
>> pertinent philosophy shown below doesn't make sense.
>>      The ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is an
>> observable fact. And accordingly associated with Aristotlean thought.
>>      OTOH, notions of non-Euclidean space are Platonic. And non-
>> Euclidean space Platonically pulls pi apart to the breaking point?
>>
> Purely thought experiment until such time as we can observe
> non-Euclidean space to conduct actual experiments.
>

If it's not flat, it's not a "circle" (each point is equidistant from
center)

--
.

Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/31/2023 10:44 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > On 10/31/2023 6:12 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> >> On 30/10/2023 17.57, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> >>> The radius of a black hole is infinite, while the diameter remains
> >>> finite.
> >>
> >> Its circumference remains finite.
> >>
> > I'm not even getting past him saying infinity doubled is finite.
>
> I think that Pete is saying that a black hole has a throat of infinite
> length and that the center point is "way down there".

Whereas the diameter can be measured from the outside!

--
-Jack

On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 13:13:12 -0000 (UTC), Don <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

>pete wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>> Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> > On 10/31/2023 9:39 AM, Don wrote:
>>> > > Michael wrote:
>>> > >> Joel Polowin wrote:
>>> > >>> Ted wrote:
>>> > >>>> That's not the way the Liaden old universe worked. For instance, the
>>> > >>>> value of Pi was not the same, setting aside a completely different set
>
>>> > >>>> of stars & planets.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Given that pi can be calculated in multiple ways as the sum of mathematical
>>> > >>> converging infinite series, it's hard to see how that could be... Archie
>>> > >>> Plutonium's "theories" notwithstanding. Of course, that's the mathematical
>>> > >>> constant, which can differ from the _physical_ value (e.g. the ratio between
>>> > >>> the circumference and diameter of a circle) depending on the curvature of
>>> > >>> space.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Of course, in anything other than flat, Euclidean space, the ratio
>>> > >> of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is not constant, but
>>> > >> depends on its diameter (at least) and position (in a negatively
>>> > >> curved space, I think).
>>> > >
>>> > > Allow me to use the groups as an adhoc classroom. Let me know if my pi
>>> > > pertinent philosophy shown below doesn't make sense.
>>> > > The ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is an
>>> > > observable fact. And accordingly associated with Aristotlean thought.
>>> > > OTOH, notions of non-Euclidean space are Platonic. And non-
>>> > > Euclidean space Platonically pulls pi apart to the breaking point?
>>> > >
>>> > Purely thought experiment until such time as we can observe
>>> > non-Euclidean space to conduct actual experiments.
>>> Since Einstein, we're living in non-Euclidean
>>> space. I think it goes as far as planets
>>> moving in "straight lines" that just happen to
>>> become ellipses because spacetime is bendy.
>>
>> This is correct.
>
>From a purely Platonic perspective perhaps?
>
> quantum mechanics would appear to be in the strange position of
> agreeing with all observations made, while disputing that any
> observations can actually be made at all.
>
> _Alice in Quantumland_ (Gilmore)
>
>It's insane isn't it?

Even the explanations in /Science News/, particularly of "quantum
pairs" (for some reason), often don't make sense to me. Granted I
never studied quantum physics -- but the articles are supposed to be
written so an educated but not in the topic of the article person can
understand the concepts.

Well, for quantum physics, that's "understand the concepts in a
cartoony way", of course.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 10/31/2023 10:11 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <uhslld$1f39q$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 10/31/2023 9:47 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 10/31/2023 10:44 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 10/31/2023 6:12 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>> On 30/10/2023 17.57, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:45:26 PM UTC-4, meagain wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I feel pretty confident that PI does not change with the curvature of
>>>>>>> space-time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ratio between the radius of a circle and its circumference can
>>>>>> change
>>>>>> as space is distorted.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, it is no longer pi.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The radius of a black hole is infinite, while the diameter remains
>>>>>> finite.
>>>>>
>>>>> Its circumference remains finite.
>>>>>
>>>> I'm not even getting past him saying infinity doubled is finite.
>>>
>>> I think that Pete is saying that a black hole has a throat of infinite
>>> length and that the center point is "way down there".  Wow, maybe
>>> Disney's The Black Hole did have some science basis to it.
>>>
>> There has been speculation that black holes are also wormholes or
>> inter-universe transit routes for pretty much as long as we've accepted
>> that black holes are real. But speculation is all it is as our current
>> physics breaks down at a BH event horizon.
>>
>
> Is this (from Asimov) still operant?
>
> It is quite possible, then, that the entire universe is
> itself a black hole (as has been suggested by the physicist
> Kip Thorne).
>
> If it is, then very likely it has always been a black hole
> and will always be a black hole. If that is so, we live
> within a black hole, and if we want to know what conditions
> are like in a black hole (provided it is extremely massive),
> we have but to look around.

Black holes in black holes in black holes repeated infinitum....

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 10:01:23 AM UTC-4, Jack Bohn wrote:
> Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 10/31/2023 10:44 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > > On 10/31/2023 6:12 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> > >> On 30/10/2023 17.57, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > >>> The radius of a black hole is infinite, while the diameter remains
> > >>> finite.
> > >>
> > >> Its circumference remains finite.
> > >>
> > > I'm not even getting past him saying infinity doubled is finite.
> >
> > I think that Pete is saying that a black hole has a throat of infinite
> > length and that the center point is "way down there".
> Whereas the diameter can be measured from the outside!

You got it!

pt