Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or Effective
Government

We're not using the L-word.

https://www.tor.com/2023/11/01/five-sf-visions-of-society-free-from-rules-regulations-or-effective-government/
--
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My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 11/1/2023 9:10 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or Effective
> Government
>
> We're not using the L-word.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/11/01/five-sf-visions-of-society-free-from-rules-regulations-or-effective-government/

Zero for five again.

WROL, Without the Rule Of Law.

Lynn

On 2023-11-01, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:

> https://www.tor.com/2023/11/01/five-sf-visions-of-society-free-from-rules-regulations-or-effective-government/

James P. Hogan, _Voyage from Yesteryear_

Ken MacLeod, _The Stone Canal_
The author prefers anarcho-communism, but wanted to explore the
idea of anarcho-capitalism.

.... or any other Prometheus Award winner, I guess?

S. Andrew Swann's _Hostile Takeover_ trilogy (really a single novel
published in three volumes)
Whose world Bakunin seems less libertarian than populated by a
bewildering variety of authoritarian communes. Pick your poison.
(The banned-nanotech people are kind of cool, if only because
gurl ner fb sne nurnq bs rirelobql ryfr gung gur pbpxrq tha va
beovg qrfvtarq gb ryvzvngr gurz vs arprffnel cebirf fbzrjung
varssrpgvir, VVEP.)

Eric Frank Russell, "... And Then There Were None"

Vernor Vinge, "The Ungoverned"
Which I haven't actually read.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 10:10:31 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or Effective
> Government
>
> We're not using the L-word.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/11/01/five-sf-visions-of-society-free-from-rules-regulations-or-effective-government/
>

Hm...would the Culture count for this? At least from the
human point of view, and maybe the Minds too.

I should probably go re-read those books.
Tony

James Nicoll wrote:

>Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or Effective
>Government

The corporate-run, not much other government is the premise for, in
spite of the title, "Jennifer Government" by Max Barry. I was
interested to find a few months back that the game he created or
sponsored, NationStates, is still going.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=world

I noodled around with that years ago. I don't seem to have my login
credentials recorded anywhere.

Sort of similarly is the Corporate Rim in the Murderbot Diaries.
Companies seem to have pretty free rein in most of their dealings,
although there seems to be some court system that works.

Brian

On Thursday, 2 November 2023 at 07:03:55 UTC, Default User wrote:
> James Nicoll wrote:
>
> >Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or Effective
> >Government
> The corporate-run, not much other government is the premise for, in
> spite of the title, "Jennifer Government" by Max Barry. I was
> interested to find a few months back that the game he created or
> sponsored, NationStates, is still going.
>
> https://www.nationstates.net/page=world
>
> I noodled around with that years ago. I don't seem to have my login
> credentials recorded anywhere.
>
>
> Sort of similarly is the Corporate Rim in the Murderbot Diaries.
> Companies seem to have pretty free rein in most of their dealings,
> although there seems to be some court system that works.

Space corporations were pretty much above the law
when Andre Norton was still writing as Andrew North.
I'm thinking of _Sargasso in Space_ in particular,
although calling the cops is an option in that story.
However, the cops are a long way away. Because space. ;-)

Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
> Eric Frank Russell, "... And Then There Were None"
>

The SF boom after WWII has an obvious explanation that we came out of it with The Rocket and The Atom Bomb, but it recently occurred to me to wonder about growing the audience as an effect of military service throwing together fans and ordinary people in close living conditions. Or it could just be the technical training many folks got that they would have never have had and would never have known was so interesting. I do wonder if there was a similar effect that improved SF writers: they got out of their ivy-colored towers and saw different places, different people, saw the technological and military effect of science. In a word, experience. With these thoughts flowing in my head (,and I apologize for sending them flowing through yours, but it's necessary to understand this:) the mention of this story adds the idea that the writers were also getting the experience of their own government involved in an alarming degree in their lives: their work, eating, and rest. How much of the libertarian strain in sf is in reaction to that?

(Then there is the grim WWII example of what a strong central government can do with an efficient bureaucracy that enforces not just the letter of the law but twisted the spirit. They say, "Governments don't kill people, people kill people," but governments make it so much easier and on such a larger scale that you can see why some want to ban them.)

--
-Jack

In article <19456132-f0d1-4535-a478-a3056cb09349n@googlegroups.com>,
Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:

snip

>I do wonder if there was a similar effect that improved
>SF writers: they got out of their ivy-colored towers and saw different
>places, different people, saw the technological and military effect of
>science.

Autobiographical works by vintage authors suggest they were not
escaping ivory towers so much as tenaments. Not a lot of money
in pulps except for a lucky few.

(Also, lots came from New York City. Want to encounter something
new and exciting? Walk a block)
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 01/11/2023 14.49, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2023-11-01, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> https://www.tor.com/2023/11/01/five-sf-visions-of-society-free-from-rules-regulations-or-effective-government/

> Vernor Vinge, "The Ungoverned"
> Which I haven't actually read.

It's fun. It doesn't work as a philosophical tract. because
the day is saved largely due to most people being rational
actors.

It's followed by _The Peace War_, which is also quite enjoyable.
<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?703>

Another entertaining look at Libertopia is Stephenson's _Snow Crash_:
<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?1182>
In this one, "the Federal Government" is an organization that one
may choose to join. So is "the Mafia".

Or, Charlie Stross's _Singularity Sky_:
<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?23623>
We see representatives of Earth meeting a totalitarian society
(and a lot of other stuff) without letting the folks with
whom they're negotiating know that, where they come from,
"government" is more of an idea than anything else. It also
has a truly great opening line.

--
Michael F. Stemper
The FAQ for rec.arts.sf.written is at
<http://leepers.us/evelyn/faqs/sf-written.htm>
Please read it before posting.

In article <ui3j1c$2tr2u$1@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 01/11/2023 14.49, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> On 2023-11-01, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>https://www.tor.com/2023/11/01/five-sf-visions-of-society-free-from-rules-regulations-or-effective-government/
>
>
>> Vernor Vinge, "The Ungoverned"
>> Which I haven't actually read.
>
>It's fun. It doesn't work as a philosophical tract. because
>the day is saved largely due to most people being rational
>actors.
>
>It's followed by _The Peace War_, which is also quite enjoyable.
><https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?703>
>
I thought Peace War came before the Ungoverned?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 03/11/2023 15.50, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <ui3j1c$2tr2u$1@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 01/11/2023 14.49, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

>>> Vernor Vinge, "The Ungoverned"
>>> Which I haven't actually read.
>>
>> It's fun. It doesn't work as a philosophical tract. because
>> the day is saved largely due to most people being rational
>> actors.
>>
>> It's followed by _The Peace War_, which is also quite enjoyable.
>> <https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?703>
>>
> I thought Peace War came before the Ungoverned?

Yeah, you're right. My bad.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 24:17

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 5:29:24 PM UTC-4, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 03/11/2023 15.50, James Nicoll wrote:
> > In article <ui3j1c$2tr2u$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 01/11/2023 14.49, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
> >>> Vernor Vinge, "The Ungoverned"
> >>> Which I haven't actually read.
> >>
> >> It's fun. It doesn't work as a philosophical tract. because
> >> the day is saved largely due to most people being rational
> >> actors.
> >>
> >> It's followed by _The Peace War_, which is also quite enjoyable.
> >> <https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?703>
> >>
> > I thought Peace War came before the Ungoverned?
> Yeah, you're right. My bad.

Let s not leave out L Neal Smith's 'The Probability Broach', with with
J. Neal Schuman's 'Alongside Night' describe a pretty pure Libertopia.

Pt

On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 9:10:31 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or Effective
> Government
>
> We're not using the L-word.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/11/01/five-sf-visions-of-society-free-from-rules-regulations-or-effective-government/
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
". . . And Then There Were None" by Eric Frank Russell
"The Equalizer" by Jack Williamson
"The Skills of Xanadu" by Theodore Sturgeon

On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 10:10:31 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or Effective
> Government
>
> We're not using the L-word.

I would add Ken MacLeod's "The Stone Canal", which spawned a thousand-plus thread here
when published. Some of it rather heated.

William Hyde

On 5/11/23 10:59, William Hyde wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 10:10:31 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or Effective
>> Government
>>
>> We're not using the L-word.
>
> I would add Ken MacLeod's "The Stone Canal", which spawned a thousand-plus thread here
> when published. Some of it rather heated.
>
> William Hyde
>

I tried to look that up on Google Groups but it doesn't go back that far.
The Stone Canal is the only MacLeod I have read and there was much I
enjoyed, including the sense of wonder but I found the politics and
international events confusing having not paid attention to detail. I
was also a little confused by the time shifts and it took a while to
understand the differing characters of humans and AI cloned machinery.
Was the heat due to politics or to the more esoteric rights of AI?

On 11/14/2023 10:29 PM, Titus G wrote:
> On 5/11/23 10:59, William Hyde wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 10:10:31 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or Effective
>>> Government
>>>
>>> We're not using the L-word.
>>
>> I would add Ken MacLeod's "The Stone Canal", which spawned a thousand-plus thread here
>> when published. Some of it rather heated.
>>
>> William Hyde
>>
>
> I tried to look that up on Google Groups but it doesn't go back that far.
> The Stone Canal is the only MacLeod I have read and there was much I
> enjoyed, including the sense of wonder but I found the politics and
> international events confusing having not paid attention to detail. I
> was also a little confused by the time shifts and it took a while to
> understand the differing characters of humans and AI cloned machinery.
> Was the heat due to politics or to the more esoteric rights of AI?

You ask that like they wouldn't be one and the same.... ;)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Wednesday, November 15, 2023 at 1:29:39 AM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
> On 5/11/23 10:59, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 10:10:31 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or Effective
> >> Government
> >>
> >> We're not using the L-word.
> >
> > I would add Ken MacLeod's "The Stone Canal", which spawned a thousand-plus thread here
> > when published. Some of it rather heated.
> >
> > William Hyde
> >
> I tried to look that up on Google Groups but it doesn't go back that far.
> The Stone Canal is the only MacLeod I have read and there was much I
> enjoyed, including the sense of wonder but I found the politics and
> international events confusing having not paid attention to detail.

"The Cassini Division" makes a nice counterpoint to TSC. Although the
books are not that tightly connected - it's the same future - somehow I
felt that I understood the latter better after reading TCD.

Other books in that set ("The Star Faction", for one) proved slogs for me. But were
not without fascinating elements and it's always possible that I just was
missing the point. I was rather distracted at the time and should probably
give them another shot.

William Hyde

On 16/11/23 05:39, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 11/14/2023 10:29 PM, Titus G wrote:
>> On 5/11/23 10:59, William Hyde wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 10:10:31 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll
>>> wrote:
>>>> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or
>>>> Effective Government
>>>>
>>>> We're not using the L-word.
>>>
>>> I would add Ken MacLeod's "The Stone Canal", which spawned a
>>> thousand-plus thread here when published. Some of it rather
>>> heated.
>>>
>>> William Hyde
>>>
>>
>> I tried to look that up on Google Groups but it doesn't go back
>> that far. The Stone Canal is the only MacLeod I have read and there
>> was much I enjoyed, including the sense of wonder but I found the
>> politics and international events confusing having not paid
>> attention to detail. I was also a little confused by the time
>> shifts and it took a while to understand the differing characters
>> of humans and AI cloned machinery. Was the heat due to politics or
>> to the more esoteric rights of AI?
>
> You ask that like they wouldn't be one and the same.... ;)
>

I don't remember enough to be sure but there were different
interpretations of what anarchy was and to what extent it should be
practised. The route to anarchy was also heavily political with emphasis
on far left factions.
Some AI machines and some androids were based on human brain tissue.
Whether these had rights was an arguable issue as well as the further
use of AI in nanotechnology may have been. This was a lesser issue.
I probably should reread it before more vague comment.

On 11/15/2023 7:22 PM, Titus G wrote:
> On 16/11/23 05:39, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 11/14/2023 10:29 PM, Titus G wrote:
>>> On 5/11/23 10:59, William Hyde wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 10:10:31 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or
>>>>> Effective Government
>>>>>
>>>>> We're not using the L-word.
>>>>
>>>> I would add Ken MacLeod's "The Stone Canal", which spawned a
>>>> thousand-plus thread here when published. Some of it rather
>>>> heated.
>>>>
>>>> William Hyde
>>>>
>>>
>>> I tried to look that up on Google Groups but it doesn't go back
>>> that far. The Stone Canal is the only MacLeod I have read and there
>>> was much I enjoyed, including the sense of wonder but I found the
>>> politics and international events confusing having not paid
>>> attention to detail. I was also a little confused by the time
>>> shifts and it took a while to understand the differing characters
>>> of humans and AI cloned machinery. Was the heat due to politics or
>>> to the more esoteric rights of AI?
>>
>> You ask that like they wouldn't be one and the same.... ;)
>>
>
> I don't remember enough to be sure but there were different
> interpretations of what anarchy was and to what extent it should be
> practised. The route to anarchy was also heavily political with emphasis
> on far left factions.
> Some AI machines and some androids were based on human brain tissue.
> Whether these had rights was an arguable issue as well as the further
> use of AI in nanotechnology may have been. This was a lesser issue.
> I probably should reread it before more vague comment.

My point was that "Rights" as in what an individual can do are VERY much
a political issue.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Titus G wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> Titus G wrote:
>>> William wrote:
>>>> James wrote:
>>>>> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or
>>>>> Effective Government
>>>>>
>>>>> We're not using the L-word.
>>>>
>>>> I would add Ken MacLeod's "The Stone Canal", which spawned a
>>>> thousand-plus thread here when published. Some of it rather
>>>> heated.
>>>>
>>>> William Hyde
>>>>
>>>
>>> I tried to look that up on Google Groups but it doesn't go back
>>> that far. The Stone Canal is the only MacLeod I have read and there
>>> was much I enjoyed, including the sense of wonder but I found the
>>> politics and international events confusing having not paid
>>> attention to detail. I was also a little confused by the time
>>> shifts and it took a while to understand the differing characters
>>> of humans and AI cloned machinery. Was the heat due to politics or
>>> to the more esoteric rights of AI?
>>
>> You ask that like they wouldn't be one and the same.... ;)
>>
>
> I don't remember enough to be sure but there were different
> interpretations of what anarchy was and to what extent it should be
> practised. The route to anarchy was also heavily political with emphasis
> on far left factions.
> Some AI machines and some androids were based on human brain tissue.
> Whether these had rights was an arguable issue as well as the further
> use of AI in nanotechnology may have been. This was a lesser issue.
> I probably should reread it before more vague comment.

google's narrative architecture may include a memory hole to contain all
unvetted old thought - to treat it as a potentially bad influence.

Regardless, here's a little bit of Perry Rhodan followed by a whole lot
of a Macleod thread usenet data dump. It may be the thread you seek.
The dump's so massive it had to be uploaded to a website. It will
temporarily remain online for the time being.

First the Perry Rhodan:

Der Posbis are robots with Positronic-Biological brains. The third
Zyklus, consisting of fifty novellas, is named after them:

<https://www.perrypedia.de/wiki/Die_Posbis_(Zyklus)>

Finally, the promising Macleod data dump - dig in:

<https://crcomp.net/arts/macleod.html>

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

In article <uj41tk$245h4$1@dont-email.me>, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>I don't remember enough to be sure but there were different
>interpretations of what anarchy was and to what extent it should be
>practised. The route to anarchy was also heavily political with emphasis
>on far left factions.

Was this based vaguely on the Spanish Civil War?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 17/11/23 02:29, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article <uj41tk$245h4$1@dont-email.me>, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don't remember enough to be sure but there were different
>> interpretations of what anarchy was and to what extent it should be
>> practised. The route to anarchy was also heavily political with emphasis
>> on far left factions.
>
> Was this based vaguely on the Spanish Civil War?
> --scott
>

Not as far as I am aware.

On 16/11/23 18:15, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 11/15/2023 7:22 PM, Titus G wrote:
>> On 16/11/23 05:39, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 11/14/2023 10:29 PM, Titus G wrote:
>>>> On 5/11/23 10:59, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 10:10:31 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or
>>>>>> Effective Government
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're not using the L-word.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would add Ken MacLeod's "The Stone Canal", which spawned a
>>>>> thousand-plus thread here when published.  Some of it rather
>>>>> heated.
>>>>>
>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I tried to look that up on Google Groups but it doesn't go back
>>>> that far. The Stone Canal is the only MacLeod I have read and there
>>>> was much I enjoyed, including the sense of wonder but I found the
>>>> politics and international events confusing having not paid
>>>> attention to detail. I was also a little confused by the time
>>>> shifts and it took a while to understand the differing characters
>>>> of humans and AI cloned machinery. Was the heat due to politics or
>>>> to the more esoteric rights of AI?
>>>
>>> You ask that like they wouldn't be one and the same....  ;)
>>>
>>
>> I don't remember enough to be sure but there were different
>> interpretations of what anarchy was and to what extent it should be
>> practised. The route to anarchy was also heavily political with emphasis
>> on far left factions.
>> Some AI machines and some androids were based on human brain tissue.
>> Whether these had rights was an arguable issue as well as the further
>> use of AI in nanotechnology may have been. This was a lesser issue.
>> I probably should reread it before more vague comment.
>
> My point was that "Rights" as in what an individual can do are VERY much
> a political issue.
>

Yes, but in this particular anarchic society, "Rights" may have been the
wrong word for me to use. If you were murdered and there were delays in
retrieving backup, you had a "right" to monetary compensation but I do
not recall how this was enforced.

On 17/11/23 02:19, Don wrote:

much snippage

>>> Titus G wrote:
>>>> William wrote:
>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>> Five SF Visions of Society Free From Rules, Regulations, or
>>>>>> Effective Government
>>>>>
>>>>> I would add Ken MacLeod's "The Stone Canal", which spawned a
>>>>> thousand-plus thread here when published. Some of it rather
>>>>> heated.
>>>>
>>>> I tried to look that up on Google Groups but it doesn't go back
>>>> that far.

> Finally, the promising Macleod data dump - dig in:
>
> <https://crcomp.net/arts/macleod.html>
>

Thank you very much. The thread didn't stay with MacLeod for long and
was not specific to the Stone Canal. Mainly arguments about socialism or
communism vs capitalism in theory and history so I didn't get very far
through.