Glorious Apolitical SF

No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
historical example.

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <ui5i73$dqe$1@reader2.panix.com>,
James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>Glorious Apolitical SF
>
>No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
>historical example.
>
>https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf

I have read (and in many cases reviewed) the following kill-crazy authors:
Karen K. Anderson, Poul Anderson, Harry Bates, Lloyd Biggie, Jr., J. F. Bone,
Leigh Brackett, Marion Zimmer Bradley, R. Bretnor, Fredric Brown,
Doris Pitkin Buck, William R. Burkett, Jr., F. M. Busby, John W. Campbell,
Hal Clement, Hank Davis, L. Sprague de Camp, Charles V. de Vet, T. R.
Fehrenbach, Daniel F. Galouye, Raymond Z. Gallun, Edmond Hamilton,
Robert A. Heinlein, Dean C. Ing, Jay Kay Klein, David A. Kyle,
R. A. Lafferty, C. C. MacApp, P. Schuyler Miller, Sam Moskowitz,
John Myers Myers, Larry Niven, Alan Nourse, Jerry E. Pournelle,
E. Hoffmann Price, Fred Saberhagen, George O. Smith, G. Harry Stine
(Lee Correy), Thomas Burnett Swann, Theodore L. Thomas, Jack Vance,
and Jack Williamson.

I have read (and in many cases reviewed the following abject
surrender-monkey authors: Forrest J Ackerman, Isaac Asimov, Peter S.
Beagle, Jerome Bixby, James Blish, Anthony Boucher, Ray Bradbury,
Terry Carr, Theodore R. Cogswell, Allan Danzig, Miriam Allen deFord,
Samuel R. Delany, Lester del Rey, Philip K. Dick, Thomas M. Disch,
Sonya Dorman, Harlan Ellison, Carol Emshwiller, Philip Jose Farmer,
Ron Goulart, Joseph Green, Harry Harrison, Daniel Keyes, Virginia Kidd,
Damon Knight, Ursula K. LeGuin, Fritz Leiber, A. M. Lightner,
Katherine MacLean, Barry Malzberg, Judith Merril, Robert P. Mills,
Kris Neville, Alexei Panshin, Emil Petaja, J. R. Pierce, Mack Reynolds,
Gene Roddenberry, Joanna Russ, James Sallis, Larry T. Shaw, T. L.
Sherred, Robert Silverberg, Norman Spinrad, Margaret St. Clair, Kate
Wilhelm, Richard Wilson, and Donald A. Wollheim.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:50:33 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> Glorious Apolitical SF
>
> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> historical example.
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
There is an article to be wrriten somewhere about SF authors with personal experience of America's anti-insurgency wars. (I use the more general term because I see that if I include the Korean war you could include Jerry Pournelle, who wrote quite a lot about future anti-insurgency campaigns). I suppose the UK equivalent would be personal experience of the N.Ireland troubles. The only author that comes to mind for that is James White, whose work is well described by Wikipedia as explicitly pacifist.

In article <f2c550dd-4860-437d-992e-c27e95400fa1n@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:50:33 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Glorious Apolitical SF
>>
>> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
>> historical example.
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
>> --
>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>There is an article to be wrriten somewhere about SF authors with
>personal experience of America's anti-insurgency wars. (I use the more
>general term because I see that if I include the Korean war you could
>include Jerry Pournelle, who wrote quite a lot about future
>anti-insurgency campaigns). I suppose the UK equivalent would be
>personal experience of the N.Ireland troubles. The only author that
>comes to mind for that is James White, whose work is well described by
>Wikipedia as explicitly pacifist.

Bob Shaw was born in Belfast. He and his family moved to England
during the Troubles.

(There was a short stay in Canada, which Shaw does not appear to
have enjoyed, but they moved back to Ireland and then to England)

I'm guessing people who experienced anti-insurgency efforts as
civilians had very different experiences than the soldiers.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <ui5ptn$at4$1@reader2.panix.com>,
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> In article <ui5i73$dqe$1@reader2.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
> >Glorious Apolitical SF
> >
> >No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> >historical example.
> >
> >https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
>
> I have read (and in many cases reviewed) the following kill-crazy authors:
<snip>
> Robert A. Heinlein, Dean C. Ing, Jay Kay Klein, David A. Kyle,

I had noticed all the Futurians in the other list, but hadn't noticed
David A. Kyle in this one.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:40:09 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <f2c550dd-4860-437d...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:50:33 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Glorious Apolitical SF
> >>
> >> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> >> historical example.
> >>
> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
> >> --
> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >There is an article to be wrriten somewhere about SF authors with
> >personal experience of America's anti-insurgency wars. (I use the more
> >general term because I see that if I include the Korean war you could
> >include Jerry Pournelle, who wrote quite a lot about future
> >anti-insurgency campaigns). I suppose the UK equivalent would be
> >personal experience of the N.Ireland troubles. The only author that
> >comes to mind for that is James White, whose work is well described by
> >Wikipedia as explicitly pacifist.
> Bob Shaw was born in Belfast. He and his family moved to England
> during the Troubles.
>
> (There was a short stay in Canada, which Shaw does not appear to
> have enjoyed, but they moved back to Ireland and then to England)
>
> I'm guessing people who experienced anti-insurgency efforts as
> civilians had very different experiences than the soldiers.
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Thanks for that - if I ever knew that Bob Shaw had Belfast connections I had forgotten it - perhaps now I will remember it. It is interesting that Shaw's character Grainger is a cynic - I can't see him as being enthusiastic for a cause of any description. I was born in N.Ireland in 1962. With the exception of family holidays - mostly in Scotland - I grew up there, in a quiet seaside village, and was educated in a school that benefited from the fact that energetic young teachers were not necessarily keen to work and live among the bright lights of the local city - Belfast. I was brought up to get out of N.Ireland at the first opportunity, which I achieved by going to university in England in 1980, and then working there. I am pretty sure that my interest in America (originally as introduced and explained by Alastair Cooke) and future imagined countries, typically by American authors, was a reaction to the dysfunction of N.Irish politics. While I wouldn't have advised hiring Hammer's Slammers to sort out the troubles (I can hear them saying that they can impose order, but not universal good will) I think at least the advisors of Falkenberg's Legion might have had something worthwhile to contribute.

In article <71a9ccdb-3897-4dee-920b-8beee139aeaan@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:40:09 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <f2c550dd-4860-437d...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:50:33 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> Glorious Apolitical SF
>> >>
>> >> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
>> >> historical example.
>> >>
>> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
>> >> --
>> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>> >There is an article to be wrriten somewhere about SF authors with
>> >personal experience of America's anti-insurgency wars. (I use the more
>> >general term because I see that if I include the Korean war you could
>> >include Jerry Pournelle, who wrote quite a lot about future
>> >anti-insurgency campaigns). I suppose the UK equivalent would be
>> >personal experience of the N.Ireland troubles. The only author that
>> >comes to mind for that is James White, whose work is well described by
>> >Wikipedia as explicitly pacifist.
>> Bob Shaw was born in Belfast. He and his family moved to England
>> during the Troubles.
>>
>> (There was a short stay in Canada, which Shaw does not appear to
>> have enjoyed, but they moved back to Ireland and then to England)
>>
>> I'm guessing people who experienced anti-insurgency efforts as
>> civilians had very different experiences than the soldiers.
>> --
>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>Thanks for that - if I ever knew that Bob Shaw had Belfast connections
>I had forgotten it - perhaps now I will remember it. It is interesting
>that Shaw's character Grainger is a cynic - I can't see him as being
>enthusiastic for a cause of any description. I was born in N.Ireland in
>1962. With the exception of family holidays - mostly in Scotland - I
>grew up there, in a quiet seaside village, and was educated in a school
>that benefited from the fact that energetic young teachers were not
>necessarily keen to work and live among the bright lights of the local
>city - Belfast. I was brought up to get out of N.Ireland at the first
>opportunity, which I achieved by going to university in England in
>1980, and then working there. I am pretty sure that my interest in
>America (originally as introduced and explained by Alastair Cooke) and
>future imagined countries, typically by American authors, was a
>reaction to the dysfunction of N.Irish politics. While I wouldn't have
>advised hiring Hammer's Slammers to sort out the troubles (I can hear
>them saying that they can impose order, but not universal good will) I
>think at least the advisors of Falkenberg's Legion might have had
>something worthwhile to contribute.

About a quarter of my ancestors are Catholic Irish but they left
due to the Potato Famine, not more recent unpleasantnesses. That
said, governments have tried firm, resolute military solutions
along the lines JEP preferred. They did not produce peace and
stability or even control of much of Ireland.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <71a9ccdb-3897-4dee-920b-8beee139aeaan@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

snip

>Thanks for that - if I ever knew that Bob Shaw had Belfast connections
>I had forgotten it - perhaps now I will remember it. It is interesting
>that Shaw's character Grainger is a cynic - I can't see him as being
>enthusiastic for a cause of any description.

A recurring theme in Shaw is distaste and contempt for regional
nationalists. It turns up in a number of his novel. I had not thought
about it in the context of being N. Irish.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:27:24 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <71a9ccdb-3897-4dee...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:40:09 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> In article <f2c550dd-4860-437d...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >> >On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:50:33 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >> Glorious Apolitical SF
> >> >>
> >> >> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> >> >> historical example.
> >> >>
> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
> >> >> --
> >> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >> >There is an article to be wrriten somewhere about SF authors with
> >> >personal experience of America's anti-insurgency wars. (I use the more
> >> >general term because I see that if I include the Korean war you could
> >> >include Jerry Pournelle, who wrote quite a lot about future
> >> >anti-insurgency campaigns). I suppose the UK equivalent would be
> >> >personal experience of the N.Ireland troubles. The only author that
> >> >comes to mind for that is James White, whose work is well described by
> >> >Wikipedia as explicitly pacifist.
> >> Bob Shaw was born in Belfast. He and his family moved to England
> >> during the Troubles.
> >>
> >> (There was a short stay in Canada, which Shaw does not appear to
> >> have enjoyed, but they moved back to Ireland and then to England)
> >>
> >> I'm guessing people who experienced anti-insurgency efforts as
> >> civilians had very different experiences than the soldiers.
> >> --
> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >Thanks for that - if I ever knew that Bob Shaw had Belfast connections
> >I had forgotten it - perhaps now I will remember it. It is interesting
> >that Shaw's character Grainger is a cynic - I can't see him as being
> >enthusiastic for a cause of any description. I was born in N.Ireland in
> >1962. With the exception of family holidays - mostly in Scotland - I
> >grew up there, in a quiet seaside village, and was educated in a school
> >that benefited from the fact that energetic young teachers were not
> >necessarily keen to work and live among the bright lights of the local
> >city - Belfast. I was brought up to get out of N.Ireland at the first
> >opportunity, which I achieved by going to university in England in
> >1980, and then working there. I am pretty sure that my interest in
> >America (originally as introduced and explained by Alastair Cooke) and
> >future imagined countries, typically by American authors, was a
> >reaction to the dysfunction of N.Irish politics. While I wouldn't have
> >advised hiring Hammer's Slammers to sort out the troubles (I can hear
> >them saying that they can impose order, but not universal good will) I
> >think at least the advisors of Falkenberg's Legion might have had
> >something worthwhile to contribute.
> About a quarter of my ancestors are Catholic Irish but they left
> due to the Potato Famine, not more recent unpleasantnesses. That
> said, governments have tried firm, resolute military solutions
> along the lines JEP preferred. They did not produce peace and
> stability or even control of much of Ireland.
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Pournelle, with Stirling, wrote a series, of which one was "Prince Of Sparta", and another "Falkenberg's Legion". Falkenberg's father was a professor, and Falkenberg, even on his own, is much more than a simple purveyor of brute force solutions. In "Prince of Sparta" Falkenberg's legion is not only careful to gather and make use of intellegence; they have a highly educated advisor, Dr Caldwell Whitlock, described as a political consultant, who describes the problem they face on Sparta as posed by a revolutionary force operating according to Maoist insurgency doctrine. I haven't found the passage, but somewhere in that series there is at least one example story about being careful when dealng with insurgents whose plan is to provoke an over-reaction and be ready to record it on video.

If Pournelle had wanted to portray the _really_ firm application of military force, there are real life forces much more specialised in pure aggression than Falkenberg's legion for him to draw on. In the beginning of his Mercenary series he references the French Foreign Legion (unfavourably). The British Parachute Regiment includes training specifically designed to increase the aggressive instincts of fit young men who have volunteered for an elite fighting force ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_(military_training_exercise) ). There is evidence to suggest that this training achieves its goal, which may indeed be necessary for a force whose capabilities include parachuting into enemy territory and holding a position for some time against assaults from all directions without further support, but may be less useful in maintaining public order using the minimum necessary force against provication.

On 11/4/23 06:50, James Nicoll wrote:
> Glorious Apolitical SF
>
> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> historical example.
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf

Something that would be interesting would be an annotation that showed
which of the authors in both lists were veterans and which were combat
veterans. Note that there is quite a bit of difference between having
worked in "supply" and having fired your weapon in anger.
--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer (Retired, mostly)

In article <ui69i7$3hntn$1@dont-email.me>, BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> wrote:
>On 11/4/23 06:50, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Glorious Apolitical SF
>>
>> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
>> historical example.
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
>
>Something that would be interesting would be an annotation that showed
>which of the authors in both lists were veterans and which were combat
>veterans. Note that there is quite a bit of difference between having
>worked in "supply" and having fired your weapon in anger.

I am one hundred percept unwilling to do that much homework.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 10:02:05 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:

> I have read (and in many cases reviewed) the following kill-crazy authors:

> I have read (and in many cases reviewed the following abject
> surrender-monkey authors:

I'm not sure what the correct response is here. I was thinking of saying
that there was no need for you to be studiously apolitical...

Of course, the historical facts are confusing.

On the one hand, the very existence of the Vietnamese boat people
shows that the U.S. was genuinely opposing the establishment of
a cruel dictatorial regime in South Vietnam.

On the other hand,
- there are the regrettable incidents of napalm hitting civilians,
- there is the My Lai massacre, for which the U.S. military
justice system did not appear to properly avenge,
- there is the recent claim that Tom Dooley was blackmailed into
writing false atrocity propaganda against the Viet Cong,
- there is the revelation in the Pentagon Papers that the U.S. was
behind the overthrow of the democratic government of South Vietnam
under Ngo Dinh Diem and its replacement with a more amenable
autocracy.

Still, the _real_ issue is likely to have been inflicting conscription on
Americans in a situation where the survival of the United States
itself was not clearly at stake.
People who openly admired Hitler and Mussolini before World War
II started never faced anything like McCarthyism; the U.S. didn't
proactively respond to the Nazi threat by defending Ethiopia against
Italy, or fighting on the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War,
which would have been comparable to its actions in Korea and
Vietnam.
I put this down to the power of the business community as campaign
donors, plus their regarding Communism, with its calls to world
revolution, as an existential threat. Putin dropped the calls to world
revolution, and so his early aggressions against Georgia and
Ukraine were tolerated.

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>Of course, the historical facts are confusing.
>
>On the one hand, the very existence of the Vietnamese boat people
>shows that the U.S. was genuinely opposing the establishment of
>a cruel dictatorial regime in South Vietnam.
>
>On the other hand,
>- there are the regrettable incidents of napalm hitting civilians,
>- there is the My Lai massacre, for which the U.S. military
>justice system did not appear to properly avenge,
>- there is the recent claim that Tom Dooley was blackmailed into
>writing false atrocity propaganda against the Viet Cong,
>- there is the revelation in the Pentagon Papers that the U.S. was
>behind the overthrow of the democratic government of South Vietnam
>under Ngo Dinh Diem and its replacement with a more amenable
>autocracy.

I watched in Indonesia a few years before when the US managed to
overthrow an insane Russian-backed dictator who was killing his
own people, in order to replace him with an insane American-backed
dictator who proceeded to go on to kill his own people. In the end,
nothing was different for the people in the streets except they went
from hating Russia for supporting the government that was oppressing
them, to hating America for supporting the government that was
oppressing them.

Supporting dictatorships can sometimes seem like a great idea, but
in the long game it always does more harm than good. In the case of
Vietnam it was Ho as dictator vs. Diem as dictator and really the
actual difference for the people in the fields wasn't very much.

Diem was put into place by the US government which wanted to get
rid of Bao Dai, and then taken out again. To call him "democratic"
is pretty insulting to the concept of democracy.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 6:50:10 PM UTC-7, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Diem was put into place by the US government which wanted to get
> rid of Bao Dai, and then taken out again. To call him "democratic"
> is pretty insulting to the concept of democracy.

My Vietnamese history being weak, when I made a cursory search
on line looking for Bao Dai, no doubt, I found Diem instead.

John Savard

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 12:53:32 PM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <ui5ptn$at4$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
> > In article <ui5i73$dqe$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> > James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> > >Glorious Apolitical SF
> > >
> > >No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> > >historical example.
> > >
> > >https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
> >
> > I have read (and in many cases reviewed) the following kill-crazy authors:
> <snip>
> > Robert A. Heinlein, Dean C. Ing, Jay Kay Klein, David A. Kyle,
> I had noticed all the Futurians in the other list, but hadn't noticed
> David A. Kyle in this one.

I am not really familiar with Kyle's politics. All that comes to mind is the
following quote from Damon Knight's _The Futurians_:

"David A. Kyle, who lived with his family in Monticello, was brought up as a
Republican, and although he enjoyed playing at being a bolshevik - wearing a
red hat and marching in the May Day parade - he never took it seriously."
(Chapter 1)

It's worth noting that those who opposed -- as well as those who supported
-- the US participation in the war in Vietnam did it for a variety of reasons
and their reasons changed over time. To quote Sam Weller's biography of
Ray Bradbury:

"During much of Lyndon Johnson’s administration, Ray watched the war in
Vietnam unfold and swell, and he balked at the thought of more American
soldiers being shipped to the Southeast Asian country, only to die. As
Johnson deepened the United States’ involvement in the war, Ray became
thoroughly disenchanted with the Democratic Party. His daughters Susan
and Ramona even protested when Johnson was in Los Angeles giving a
speech. Even after the president announced that he would not seek
reelection in 1968, Ray determined not to vote Democrat — this from a
man who had taken out an ad [a full page ad in _Daily Variety_, November
10, 1952] in defense of the party during the McCarthy hearings. For the
first time, Ray voted Republican, and did so thereafter, in all but the 1976
election. Then Jimmy Carter’s inept handling of the economy, he
explained, pushed him permanently away from the Democrats."
(Sam Weller, _The Bradbury Chronicles_, Chapter 23, "Remembering the
Future")

Heinlein shared Bradbury's indignation at the way the Johnson administration
conducted the war almost from the beginning. Here is what he wrote shortly
after Johnson's news conference (August 18, 1964) in which LBJ disclosed
that an attack had been ordered but hadn't occurred yet:

"It was that hour and thirty-nine minutes of warning to the enemy - simply
to catch the late evening east coast newscast! - that disgusts me. In
civilian life we call this sort of thing “murder.” Since we can’t hang him
for it, I intend to make every possible effort to see to it that he is
retired to Texas where he can do no further harm" (William Patterson's
biography, volume 2, chapter 18)

Unlike Bradbury, Heinlein continued to support the war effort, just not the
way Johnson ran it. A socialist in the 1930s and a self-proclaimed
"libertarian" (before the term acquired various connotations) in the early
1960s, he worked for Barry Goldwater's Republican campaign for President
in 1964, but, according to Virginia, didn't join the Republican Party until
Ronald Reagan, another Goldwater supporter, ran and won in 1980.

Then there is Fritz Leiber, who said in an interview with Charles Platt in
the early 1980s:

"The only time I was ever politically active myself was in the 1960s, when
it seemed very important to elect Lyndon B. Johnson, because it seemed
important to stop Goldwater, who we felt was going to escalate the
war in Vietnam. Of course, Lyndon Johnson did it just the same, so I
became very disillusioned about that, and wrote my novel _A Specter Is
Haunting Texas_ to give expression to my feelings. That one time I got
into politics, I was on the wrong side, or at least, that's the way it
turned out. So I wasn't politically active again, after that."
(_Dream Makers Volume II_, 1983, p. 134)

On 11/4/2023 8:50 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Glorious Apolitical SF
>
> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> historical example.
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf

Nice article. I am not totally surprised that Tor did not accept it.

Three of my uncles fought in Vietnam. One of them left his wingman
there, he is MIA to this day. That same uncle taught Navy fighter pilot
skills to Israeli pilots before the Yom Kippur War. Of the one hundred
pilots he taught for a year, only four of them survived the Yom Kippur War.

I was fifteen when we left Vietnam. I was beginning to wonder what
would happen when I turned eighteen.

War is Hell. And politics by extreme means.

Lynn

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 6:50:10=E2=80=AFPM UTC-7, Scott Dorsey wrote=
>:
>
>> Diem was put into place by the US government which wanted to get=20
>> rid of Bao Dai, and then taken out again. To call him "democratic"=20
>> is pretty insulting to the concept of democracy.=20
>
>My Vietnamese history being weak, when I made a cursory search
>on line looking for Bao Dai, no doubt, I found Diem instead.

It was a mess. Even with a program, you couldn't tell who the players were.
And nobody ever really knew whose side anyone was on.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 11/7/2023 4:33 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 6:50:10=E2=80=AFPM UTC-7, Scott Dorsey wrote=
>> :
>>
>>> Diem was put into place by the US government which wanted to get=20
>>> rid of Bao Dai, and then taken out again. To call him "democratic"=20
>>> is pretty insulting to the concept of democracy.=20
>>
>> My Vietnamese history being weak, when I made a cursory search
>> on line looking for Bao Dai, no doubt, I found Diem instead.
>
> It was a mess. Even with a program, you couldn't tell who the players were.
> And nobody ever really knew whose side anyone was on.

Sounds a lot like the Middle East.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 21:51:04 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>Three of my uncles fought in Vietnam. One of them left his wingman
>there, he is MIA to this day. That same uncle taught Navy fighter pilot
>skills to Israeli pilots before the Yom Kippur War. Of the one hundred
>pilots he taught for a year, only four of them survived the Yom Kippur War.
>
>I was fifteen when we left Vietnam. I was beginning to wonder what
>would happen when I turned eighteen.
>
>War is Hell. And politics by extreme means.

Yup - during high school I was in the interesting position of having
an American father + Canadian mother and living in Canada. I graduated
#1 in a grad class of 600+ and despite that got minimal scholarship
support ($200 for my 1st + 2nd year, nothing more). Did have some
enquiries from US schools but it was the closing days of Vietnam (I'm
about 3-4 years older than you) and I found that in the draft lottery
that year I had a VERY low draft number meaning if my grades slipped
I'd be getting a draft notice (and I >DO< know Canadians who were
living in the US on green cards who were drafted).

So I stayed home - probably at the expense of my grades given the
length of the daily commute - graduated far below honor roll and only
got into business school on the basis of a 99+ percentile GMAT which
is a good thing since that's where I met my recently deceased wife -
and gave the world 3 kids all labelled 'gifted' by our school board
who are all now in their 30s and making their way in life.

Again I do know friends of my parents whose Canadian sons WERE drafted
- that green card made you eligible...

In article <3vclki1min786ng75i8mnaq6rtldt6hvas@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 21:51:04 -0600, Lynn McGuire
><lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Three of my uncles fought in Vietnam. One of them left his wingman
>>there, he is MIA to this day. That same uncle taught Navy fighter pilot
>>skills to Israeli pilots before the Yom Kippur War. Of the one hundred
>>pilots he taught for a year, only four of them survived the Yom Kippur War.
>>
>>I was fifteen when we left Vietnam. I was beginning to wonder what
>>would happen when I turned eighteen.
>>
>>War is Hell. And politics by extreme means.
>
>Yup - during high school I was in the interesting position of having
>an American father + Canadian mother and living in Canada. I graduated
>#1 in a grad class of 600+ and despite that got minimal scholarship
>support ($200 for my 1st + 2nd year, nothing more). Did have some
>enquiries from US schools but it was the closing days of Vietnam (I'm
>about 3-4 years older than you) and I found that in the draft lottery
>that year I had a VERY low draft number meaning if my grades slipped
>I'd be getting a draft notice (and I >DO< know Canadians who were
>living in the US on green cards who were drafted).
>
>So I stayed home - probably at the expense of my grades given the
>length of the daily commute - graduated far below honor roll and only
>got into business school on the basis of a 99+ percentile GMAT which
>is a good thing since that's where I met my recently deceased wife -
>and gave the world 3 kids all labelled 'gifted' by our school board
>who are all now in their 30s and making their way in life.
>
>Again I do know friends of my parents whose Canadian sons WERE drafted
>- that green card made you eligible...

My uncle Dave was a bit surprised to receive in Mulgrave, NS, a
draft notice inviting him to visit sunny Korea during the height
of the festivities. However, he was a US citizen, just one who
had been resident in Canada since he was a kid and he didn't
mind the idea of serving in the USN.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 4:24:05 PM UTC-7, James Nicoll wrote:

> My uncle Dave was a bit surprised to receive in Mulgrave, NS, a
> draft notice inviting him to visit sunny Korea during the height
> of the festivities. However, he was a US citizen, just one who
> had been resident in Canada since he was a kid and he didn't
> mind the idea of serving in the USN.

I thought that not only did the Canadian armed forces fight in the Korean
conflict, but Canada even used conscription for it - although there are
historical reasons which suggest this might not have been the case.

John Savard

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 9:18:54 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 4:24:05 PM UTC-7, James Nicoll wrote:
>
> > My uncle Dave was a bit surprised to receive in Mulgrave, NS, a
> > draft notice inviting him to visit sunny Korea during the height
> > of the festivities. However, he was a US citizen, just one who
> > had been resident in Canada since he was a kid and he didn't
> > mind the idea of serving in the USN.
>
> I thought that not only did the Canadian armed forces fight in the Korean
> conflict, but Canada even used conscription for it - although there are
> historical reasons which suggest this might not have been the case.
>
I have now checked, and indeed there was no conscription in Canada
during the Korean War. Since serving in combat in that war involved a
nonzero risk of death, and Canada did enlist a considerable number of
troops additional to those in its armed forces as they stood, it is somewhat
puzzling to me how this could happen. Without a very great personal
benefit to be had (including unselfish things like saving the life of a close
loved one), why would anyone ever voluntarily put his life itself at significant
risk?

I know there are variations in human personality type, and so there would
certainly be a _few_ people brave and patriotic enough to heed such a call,
but I would have thought there numbers would be small.

John Savard

On Wednesday, November 8, 2023 at 4:28:39 AM UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 9:18:54 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 4:24:05 PM UTC-7, James Nicoll wrote:
> >
> > > My uncle Dave was a bit surprised to receive in Mulgrave, NS, a
> > > draft notice inviting him to visit sunny Korea during the height
> > > of the festivities. However, he was a US citizen, just one who
> > > had been resident in Canada since he was a kid and he didn't
> > > mind the idea of serving in the USN.
> >
> > I thought that not only did the Canadian armed forces fight in the Korean
> > conflict, but Canada even used conscription for it - although there are
> > historical reasons which suggest this might not have been the case.
> >
> I have now checked, and indeed there was no conscription in Canada
> during the Korean War. Since serving in combat in that war involved a
> nonzero risk of death, and Canada did enlist a considerable number of
> troops additional to those in its armed forces as they stood, it is somewhat
> puzzling to me how this could happen. Without a very great personal
> benefit to be had (including unselfish things like saving the life of a close
> loved one), why would anyone ever voluntarily put his life itself at significant
> risk?
>
> I know there are variations in human personality type, and so there would
> certainly be a _few_ people brave and patriotic enough to heed such a call,
> but I would have thought there numbers would be small.
>
> John Savard
The UK did not extend conscription to N.Ireland during World War II, so anybody from either side of the Irish border who fought in World War II did so voluntarily. My Father did so, and for part of his service he apparently thought he had picked the losing side. A good part of his motivation was the desire to get a secure job and learn a trade - he hoped to be a wireless operator in the RAF, and then work in a radio shop. In fact he ended up as an instructor to new recruits, and became a teacher after the war. There is an academic study of Irish motivations at https://journals.openedition.org/etudesirlandaises/4451?lang=en - a desire for excitement is in there too.

..... Examining the testimonies of the recruits we find that a few were idealistic, some were patriotic, many were young and naïve. Their decision to join up sometimes derived from a romanticised understanding of what war was like, while for others it came after long consideration of the consequences. In short, there was a complex mixture of motives among Irish recruits who fought for Britain, ranging from loyalty, peer pressure, family tradition and idealism to the need for employment, the fear of missing all the excitement and the appeal of travel.

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 11:28:39 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 9:18:54 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 4:24:05 PM UTC-7, James Nicoll wrote:
> >
> > > My uncle Dave was a bit surprised to receive in Mulgrave, NS, a
> > > draft notice inviting him to visit sunny Korea during the height
> > > of the festivities. However, he was a US citizen, just one who
> > > had been resident in Canada since he was a kid and he didn't
> > > mind the idea of serving in the USN.
> >
> > I thought that not only did the Canadian armed forces fight in the Korean
> > conflict, but Canada even used conscription for it - although there are
> > historical reasons which suggest this might not have been the case.
> >
> I have now checked, and indeed there was no conscription in Canada
> during the Korean War. Since serving in combat in that war involved a
> nonzero risk of death, and Canada did enlist a considerable number of
> troops additional to those in its armed forces as they stood, it is somewhat
> puzzling to me how this could happen. Without a very great personal
> benefit to be had (including unselfish things like saving the life of a close
> loved one), why would anyone ever voluntarily put his life itself at significant
> risk?
>
> I know there are variations in human personality type, and so there would
> certainly be a _few_ people brave and patriotic enough to heed such a call,
> but I would have thought there numbers would be small.

There's more than a few. Think of the International Brigades in the Spanish
Civil War, and also in Ukraine at this very moment.

Idealism is a powerful force.

pt

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 6:24:05 PM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <3vclki1min786ng75...@4ax.com>,
> The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
> >On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 21:51:04 -0600, Lynn McGuire
> ><lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Three of my uncles fought in Vietnam. One of them left his wingman
> >>there, he is MIA to this day. That same uncle taught Navy fighter pilot
> >>skills to Israeli pilots before the Yom Kippur War. Of the one hundred
> >>pilots he taught for a year, only four of them survived the Yom Kippur War.
> >>
> >>I was fifteen when we left Vietnam. I was beginning to wonder what
> >>would happen when I turned eighteen.
> >>
> >>War is Hell. And politics by extreme means.
> >
> >Yup - during high school I was in the interesting position of having
> >an American father + Canadian mother and living in Canada. I graduated
> >#1 in a grad class of 600+ and despite that got minimal scholarship
> >support ($200 for my 1st + 2nd year, nothing more). Did have some
> >enquiries from US schools but it was the closing days of Vietnam (I'm
> >about 3-4 years older than you) and I found that in the draft lottery
> >that year I had a VERY low draft number meaning if my grades slipped
> >I'd be getting a draft notice (and I >DO< know Canadians who were
> >living in the US on green cards who were drafted).
> >
> >So I stayed home - probably at the expense of my grades given the
> >length of the daily commute - graduated far below honor roll and only
> >got into business school on the basis of a 99+ percentile GMAT which
> >is a good thing since that's where I met my recently deceased wife -
> >and gave the world 3 kids all labelled 'gifted' by our school board
> >who are all now in their 30s and making their way in life.
> >
> >Again I do know friends of my parents whose Canadian sons WERE drafted
> >- that green card made you eligible...
> My uncle Dave was a bit surprised to receive in Mulgrave, NS, a
> draft notice inviting him to visit sunny Korea during the height
> of the festivities. However, he was a US citizen, just one who
> had been resident in Canada since he was a kid and he didn't
> mind the idea of serving in the USN.

As I approached 18, I had been living in Europe for over a decade.
The policy, as I recall it, was that I would not have to register until
I returned to US soil. I certainly considered staying abroad as an
option. It would be complicated by the fact that the Belgian government
(where my family was living at the time) developed an interest in my
status, and suggested that I would have to take Belgian citizenship if
I wanted to stay past when I turned 21.

Fortunately, registration and the draft ended before I turned 18. When
registration was re-instated, I was over the age limit. There's a cohort
of American men, a bit less than two years long, who never had to
register.

pt