“How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof

“Israel this week used its Arrow missile-defence system to shoot down a
ballistic missile outside of Earth’s atmosphere, in what is believed to
be the first combat ever to take place in space.”

“The ballistic missile was launched from Yemen by the Iran-backed
Houthis, and flew almost 1,000 miles over the Arabian peninsula on the
way to its target, the Israeli port city of Eilat.”

“While the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) has released few details about
the interception, the Air Force is known to operate several batteries of
the Arrow 2 system, which uses a hypersonic interceptor to take out
incoming missiles in space.”

First, who knew that Yemen had joined the ICBM Club ?

Second, who is not in the ICBM Club now ? Obviously the ICBM Club is
much larger than I thought it was.

Third, we will see many firsts in the near future. And seconds. Like
maybe the second country to use a nuclear bomb or two on another country.

Lynn

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 11:32:15 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> “How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof
>
> “Israel this week used its Arrow missile-defence system to shoot down a
> ballistic missile outside of Earth’s atmosphere, in what is believed to
> be the first combat ever to take place in space.”
>
> “The ballistic missile was launched from Yemen by the Iran-backed
> Houthis, and flew almost 1,000 miles over the Arabian peninsula on the
> way to its target, the Israeli port city of Eilat.”
>
> “While the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) has released few details about
> the interception, the Air Force is known to operate several batteries of
> the Arrow 2 system, which uses a hypersonic interceptor to take out
> incoming missiles in space.”
>
> First, who knew that Yemen had joined the ICBM Club ?
>
> Second, who is not in the ICBM Club now ? Obviously the ICBM Club is
> much larger than I thought it was.
>
> Third, we will see many firsts in the near future. And seconds. Like
> maybe the second country to use a nuclear bomb or two on another country.
>
Not sure anything in the story backs the claims of shooting down a ballistic missile in space, Israel claims that it's used an F-35 to shoot down a cruise missile but it doesn't look like it happened in space, nor am I sure it's an ICBM,
https://twitter.com/IAFsite/status/1720052642276118552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1720052642276118552%7Ctwgr%5Ed839e4bc35af7b138495738c0b9d072386c10284%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedrive.com%2Fthe-war-zone%2Fisraeli-f-35-shoots-down-cruise-missile
is claimed footage of the intercept and it looks like the plane is higher than the missile so it's not an ICBM, looks like it's an atmospheric cruise missile which is a very different beast from an ICBM (inter continental ballistic missile).

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 12:59:31 AM UTC-5, Hamish Laws wrote:
> On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 11:32:15 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > “How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
> >
> > https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof
> >
> > “Israel this week used its Arrow missile-defence system to shoot down a
> > ballistic missile outside of Earth’s atmosphere, in what is believed to
> > be the first combat ever to take place in space.”
> >
> > “The ballistic missile was launched from Yemen by the Iran-backed
> > Houthis, and flew almost 1,000 miles over the Arabian peninsula on the
> > way to its target, the Israeli port city of Eilat.”
> >
> > “While the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) has released few details about
> > the interception, the Air Force is known to operate several batteries of
> > the Arrow 2 system, which uses a hypersonic interceptor to take out
> > incoming missiles in space.”
> >
> > First, who knew that Yemen had joined the ICBM Club ?
> >
> > Second, who is not in the ICBM Club now ? Obviously the ICBM Club is
> > much larger than I thought it was.
> >
> > Third, we will see many firsts in the near future. And seconds. Like
> > maybe the second country to use a nuclear bomb or two on another country.
> >
> Not sure anything in the story backs the claims of shooting down a ballistic missile in space, Israel claims that it's used an F-35 to shoot down a cruise missile but it doesn't look like it happened in space, nor am I sure it's an ICBM,
> https://twitter.com/IAFsite/status/1720052642276118552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1720052642276118552%7Ctwgr%5Ed839e4bc35af7b138495738c0b9d072386c10284%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedrive.com%2Fthe-war-zone%2Fisraeli-f-35-shoots-down-cruise-missile
> is claimed footage of the intercept and it looks like the plane is higher than the missile so it's not an ICBM, looks like it's an atmospheric cruise missile which is a very different beast from an ICBM (inter continental ballistic missile).

That's a different incident. There are a number of articles on the ballistic missile intercept.

pt

In article <5a02badf-e2d5-4e80-b9c6-72f66dc76fc6n@googlegroups.com>,
Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 11:32:15 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> “How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
>>
>>
>https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof
>>
>> “Israel this week used its Arrow missile-defence system to shoot down a
>> ballistic missile outside of Earth’s atmosphere, in what is believed to
>> be the first combat ever to take place in space.”
>>
>> “The ballistic missile was launched from Yemen by the Iran-backed
>> Houthis, and flew almost 1,000 miles over the Arabian peninsula on the
>> way to its target, the Israeli port city of Eilat.”
>>
>> “While the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) has released few details about
>> the interception, the Air Force is known to operate several batteries of
>> the Arrow 2 system, which uses a hypersonic interceptor to take out
>> incoming missiles in space.”
>>
>> First, who knew that Yemen had joined the ICBM Club ?
>>
>> Second, who is not in the ICBM Club now ? Obviously the ICBM Club is
>> much larger than I thought it was.
>>
>> Third, we will see many firsts in the near future. And seconds. Like
>> maybe the second country to use a nuclear bomb or two on another country.
>>
>Not sure anything in the story backs the claims of shooting down a
>ballistic missile in space, Israel claims that it's used an F-35 to
>shoot down a cruise missile but it doesn't look like it happened in
>space, nor am I sure it's an ICBM,

It's a huge timesaver if you assume anything Lynn claims is a lie or
an egregious misunderstanding or an egregious misunderstanding of a
lie. Also, in two weeks he won't remember his current apocalyptic
prediction because he will be on to the next.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Young People Read Old Hugo Finalists: The Mountains of Mourning by
Lois McMaster Bujold

The final story in this phase of Young People Read Old SFF is the
1st Bujold I read.

https://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/the-mountains-of-mourning
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 2:14:14 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <5a02badf-e2d5-4e80...@googlegroups.com>,
> Hamish Laws <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 11:32:15 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> “How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
> >>
> >>
> >https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof
> >>
> >> “Israel this week used its Arrow missile-defence system to shoot down a
> >> ballistic missile outside of Earth’s atmosphere, in what is believed to
> >> be the first combat ever to take place in space.”
> >>
> >> “The ballistic missile was launched from Yemen by the Iran-backed
> >> Houthis, and flew almost 1,000 miles over the Arabian peninsula on the
> >> way to its target, the Israeli port city of Eilat.”
> >>
> >> “While the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) has released few details about
> >> the interception, the Air Force is known to operate several batteries of
> >> the Arrow 2 system, which uses a hypersonic interceptor to take out
> >> incoming missiles in space.”
> >>
> >> First, who knew that Yemen had joined the ICBM Club ?
> >>
> >> Second, who is not in the ICBM Club now ? Obviously the ICBM Club is
> >> much larger than I thought it was.
> >>
> >> Third, we will see many firsts in the near future. And seconds. Like
> >> maybe the second country to use a nuclear bomb or two on another country.
> >>
> >Not sure anything in the story backs the claims of shooting down a
> >ballistic missile in space, Israel claims that it's used an F-35 to
> >shoot down a cruise missile but it doesn't look like it happened in
> >space, nor am I sure it's an ICBM,
> It's a huge timesaver if you assume anything Lynn claims is a lie or
> an egregious misunderstanding or an egregious misunderstanding of a
> lie. Also, in two weeks he won't remember his current apocalyptic
> prediction because he will be on to the next.
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
I tried to search for a politcally acceptable source for you, but what I thought was a politically correct site actually dares to forward the Daily Telegraph. Regardless, see https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof "Israel this week used its Arrow missile-defence system to shoot down a ballistic missile outside of Earth’s atmosphere, in what is believed to be the first combat ever to take place in space." OTOH a simple web search can also check the story, and finds multiple reports very quickly - certainly much more quickly than it has taken me to compose this.

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>“How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
>

I have to ask what this has to do with Science Fiction?

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 11:02:51 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
> >“How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
> >
> I have to ask what this has to do with Science Fiction?

Nothing. It should have had an OT: prefix at the very least.

OTOH, its describing an event that, to date, has only occurred in SF.
Perhaps a LITF: (Living in the Future) tag would have fit.

On a point of nomenclature: This isn't an ICBM (Inter Continental Ballistic
Missile). The Qadar-110 is an MRBM (Medium Range Ballistic Missile), with
a max range of 2000 km (~1200 miles).

pt

On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 16:02:45 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>“How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first timeâ€?
>>
>
>I have to ask what this has to do with Science Fiction?

Well, if it didn't actually happen, an SF story could be made of it.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 06.11.23 17:02, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> “How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
>>
>
> I have to ask what this has to do with Science Fiction?
>
Well....It might at least be fiction?????

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>“How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
>
>https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof
>
>“Israel this week used its Arrow missile-defence system to shoot down a
>ballistic missile outside of Earth’s atmosphere, in what is believed to
>be the first combat ever to take place in space.”
>
>“The ballistic missile was launched from Yemen by the Iran-backed
>Houthis, and flew almost 1,000 miles over the Arabian peninsula on the
>way to its target, the Israeli port city of Eilat.”
>
>“While the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) has released few details about
>the interception, the Air Force is known to operate several batteries of
>the Arrow 2 system, which uses a hypersonic interceptor to take out
>incoming missiles in space.”

Except the article proceed to identify it as a Quader (Ghader) missile
which is an anti-ship cruise missile. So they intercepted a low flying
(3-5m) turbojet driven missile in space?! Wow :-)

It's then identified as a derivate of the Iranian Shahab-3 which makes
much more sense, this is a theather ballistic missile (MRBM, less than
3000 km range) rather than an IRBM (3000-5500km range) or ICBM (global
range).

It has more than enough range for this and makes FAR more sense than
this being an ICBM or even IRBM. And it's clearly not a cruise missile
either.

With the much shorter range comes both much lower peak speeds and way
lower apogee, as I understand it MRBM like this tends to peak at
around Mach 7-9 @ 20-30km which is very different compared to trying
to intercept an ICBM which would come in at Mach 20-25 and can have an
apogee as high as 4500km.

My understanding is that the Shahab-3 (even newer version) has long
been considered to fall within the capability of Arrow-2 or Patriot to
intercept.

If it was a MRBM it also explains why they intercepted it using the
"middle height" Arrow-2 instead of the bigger and much more capable
Arrow-3 missile which is intended for space intercepts of IRBM and
ICBM.

Also, the article says residents reported a large explosion - another
suggestion that it was likely not a "space intercept" (no one can hear
you scream in space).

Iran likely HAS ICBM's (Shahab-6) but those would be far larger and
besides way too sensitive for them to be gallivanting around to Yemen
with. And FAR less deniable.

>First, who knew that Yemen had joined the ICBM Club ?

Ballistic Missile != ICBM.

My guess - Iran pulled a obsolete Shahab-3A (original model, end of
production 2008) and sent it to Yemen, with full crew. Possibly the
oldest functional one they had. Someone else might have been allowed
to formally push the launch button but that was probably all.

Similar to the "pro-Russian separatist" who used a Russian Buk
surface-to-air missile system to shoot down MH17.

On 11/6/2023 10:02 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> “How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
>>
>
> I have to ask what this has to do with Science Fiction?

It happened in space. Just another fulfillment of past science fiction.

Lynn

On 11/6/2023 8:02 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> “How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
>>
>
> I have to ask what this has to do with Science Fiction?

War in Space isn't a staple of science fiction?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 7/11/23 03:15, James Nicoll wrote:
> Young People Read Old Hugo Finalists: The Mountains of Mourning by
> Lois McMaster Bujold
>
> The final story in this phase of Young People Read Old SFF is the
> 1st Bujold I read.
>
> https://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/the-mountains-of-mourning

The quality of the young people's comments compensated for the lack of
numbers.

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 7:32:15 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> “How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof

If residents heard the explosion, it clearly did not take place in space (cue Alien promo).

If, as suggested below, this took place at an altitude of at most 30 km, then it was in the lower
middle atmosphere.

We'll have to wait a while before we can sing the space war blues.

William Hyde

On 11/6/2023 8:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Young People Read Old Hugo Finalists: The Mountains of Mourning by
> Lois McMaster Bujold
>
> The final story in this phase of Young People Read Old SFF is the
> 1st Bujold I read.
>
> https://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/the-mountains-of-mourning

It is definitely an amazing story, maybe the third highest rated in the
series for me. The second being "A Civil Campaign". The first is tied
between "Shards Of Honor" and "Barrayar".

Lynn

On 11/6/2023 1:29 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 7:32:15 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> “How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
>>
>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof
>
> If residents heard the explosion, it clearly did not take place in space (cue Alien promo).
>
> If, as suggested below, this took place at an altitude of at most 30 km, then it was in the lower
> middle atmosphere.
>
> We'll have to wait a while before we can sing the space war blues.
>
> William Hyde

If, we are all here to sing.

Lynn

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 2:13:12 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
> On 7/11/23 03:15, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Young People Read Old Hugo Finalists: The Mountains of Mourning by
> > Lois McMaster Bujold
> >
> > The final story in this phase of Young People Read Old SFF is the
> > 1st Bujold I read.
> >
> > https://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/the-mountains-of-mourning
> The quality of the young people's comments compensated for the lack of
> numbers.

I do miss the reviewer who hated just about everything, though.

William Hyde

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 12:26:23 PM UTC-5, Torbjorn Lindgren wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >“How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
> >
> >https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof
> >
> >“Israel this week used its Arrow missile-defence system to shoot down a
> >ballistic missile outside of Earth’s atmosphere, in what is believed to
> >be the first combat ever to take place in space.”
> >
> >“The ballistic missile was launched from Yemen by the Iran-backed
> >Houthis, and flew almost 1,000 miles over the Arabian peninsula on the
> >way to its target, the Israeli port city of Eilat.”
> >
> >“While the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) has released few details about
> >the interception, the Air Force is known to operate several batteries of
> >the Arrow 2 system, which uses a hypersonic interceptor to take out
> >incoming missiles in space.”
> Except the article proceed to identify it as a Quader (Ghader) missile
> which is an anti-ship cruise missile. So they intercepted a low flying
> (3-5m) turbojet driven missile in space?! Wow :-)
>
> It's then identified as a derivate of the Iranian Shahab-3 which makes
> much more sense, this is a theather ballistic missile (MRBM, less than
> 3000 km range) rather than an IRBM (3000-5500km range) or ICBM (global
> range).
>
> It has more than enough range for this and makes FAR more sense than
> this being an ICBM or even IRBM. And it's clearly not a cruise missile
> either.
>
> With the much shorter range comes both much lower peak speeds and way
> lower apogee, as I understand it MRBM like this tends to peak at
> around Mach 7-9 @ 20-30km which is very different compared to trying
> to intercept an ICBM which would come in at Mach 20-25 and can have an
> apogee as high as 4500km.
>
> My understanding is that the Shahab-3 (even newer version) has long
> been considered to fall within the capability of Arrow-2 or Patriot to
> intercept.
>
> If it was a MRBM it also explains why they intercepted it using the
> "middle height" Arrow-2 instead of the bigger and much more capable
> Arrow-3 missile which is intended for space intercepts of IRBM and
> ICBM.
>
> Also, the article says residents reported a large explosion - another
> suggestion that it was likely not a "space intercept" (no one can hear
> you scream in space).
>
> Iran likely HAS ICBM's (Shahab-6) but those would be far larger and
> besides way too sensitive for them to be gallivanting around to Yemen
> with. And FAR less deniable.
> >First, who knew that Yemen had joined the ICBM Club ?
> Ballistic Missile != ICBM.
>
> My guess - Iran pulled a obsolete Shahab-3A (original model, end of
> production 2008) and sent it to Yemen, with full crew. Possibly the
> oldest functional one they had. Someone else might have been allowed
> to formally push the launch button but that was probably all.
>
> Similar to the "pro-Russian separatist" who used a Russian Buk
> surface-to-air missile system to shoot down MH17.

There are two missiles with confusing similar names.

Ghader Antiship cruise missile:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghader_(missile)
200 km range.

Ghadr-110 MRBM, surface to surface
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghadr-110
2000 km range

pt

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 7:43:09 AM UTC+11, William Hyde wrote:
> On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 2:13:12 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
> > On 7/11/23 03:15, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > Young People Read Old Hugo Finalists: The Mountains of Mourning by
> > > Lois McMaster Bujold
> > >
> > > The final story in this phase of Young People Read Old SFF is the
> > > 1st Bujold I read.
> > >
> > > https://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/the-mountains-of-mourning
> > The quality of the young people's comments compensated for the lack of
> > numbers.
> I do miss the reviewer who hated just about everything, though.

Mikayla? It was a secret hope of mine that James would give her something truly objectionable to read. By Piers Anthony or John Norman maybe?

-Moriarty

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:02:42 PM UTC-5, Moriarty wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 7:43:09 AM UTC+11, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 2:13:12 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
> > > On 7/11/23 03:15, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > > Young People Read Old Hugo Finalists: The Mountains of Mourning by
> > > > Lois McMaster Bujold
> > > >
> > > > The final story in this phase of Young People Read Old SFF is the
> > > > 1st Bujold I read.
> > > >
> > > > https://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/the-mountains-of-mourning
> > > The quality of the young people's comments compensated for the lack of
> > > numbers.
> > I do miss the reviewer who hated just about everything, though.
> Mikayla? It was a secret hope of mine that James would give her something truly objectionable to read. By Piers Anthony or John Norman maybe?

James is not a cruel man.

William Hyde

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 2:46:59 AM UTC+11, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 2:14:14 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> > In article <5a02badf-e2d5-4e80...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Hamish Laws <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 11:32:15 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >> “How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
> > >>
> > >>
> > >https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof
> > >>
> > >> “Israel this week used its Arrow missile-defence system to shoot down a
> > >> ballistic missile outside of Earth’s atmosphere, in what is believed to
> > >> be the first combat ever to take place in space.”
> > >>
> > >> “The ballistic missile was launched from Yemen by the Iran-backed
> > >> Houthis, and flew almost 1,000 miles over the Arabian peninsula on the
> > >> way to its target, the Israeli port city of Eilat.”
> > >>
> > >> “While the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) has released few details about
> > >> the interception, the Air Force is known to operate several batteries of
> > >> the Arrow 2 system, which uses a hypersonic interceptor to take out
> > >> incoming missiles in space.”
> > >>
> > >> First, who knew that Yemen had joined the ICBM Club ?
> > >>
> > >> Second, who is not in the ICBM Club now ? Obviously the ICBM Club is
> > >> much larger than I thought it was.
> > >>
> > >> Third, we will see many firsts in the near future. And seconds. Like
> > >> maybe the second country to use a nuclear bomb or two on another country.
> > >>
> > >Not sure anything in the story backs the claims of shooting down a
> > >ballistic missile in space, Israel claims that it's used an F-35 to
> > >shoot down a cruise missile but it doesn't look like it happened in
> > >space, nor am I sure it's an ICBM,
> > It's a huge timesaver if you assume anything Lynn claims is a lie or
> > an egregious misunderstanding or an egregious misunderstanding of a
> > lie. Also, in two weeks he won't remember his current apocalyptic
> > prediction because he will be on to the next.
>>
> I tried to search for a politcally acceptable source for you, but what I thought was a politically correct site actually dares to forward the Daily Telegraph. Regardless, see https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof "Israel this week used its Arrow missile-defence system to shoot down a ballistic missile outside of Earth’s atmosphere, in what is believed to be the first combat ever to take place in space." OTOH a simple web search can also check the story, and finds multiple reports very quickly - certainly much more quickly than it has taken me to compose this.

I searched for Israel shooting down an ICBM and got nothing, might have been too early for much coverage
That article seems heavily confused, it both claims that the missile was shot down in space and that residents heard the explosion...

It also identifies the missile as a Qader missile which is an anti-ship cruise missile with a 300km range

It might have been a Ghadr-110 or Qadr-110 (the wikipedia article on the missile references the shoot down)

pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 12:26:23 PM UTC-5, Torbjorn Lindgren wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >“How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time”
>> >
>>
>>https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof
>> >
>> >“Israel this week used its Arrow missile-defence system to shoot down a
>> >ballistic missile outside of Earth’s atmosphere, in what is believed to
>> >be the first combat ever to take place in space.”
>> >
>> >“The ballistic missile was launched from Yemen by the Iran-backed
>> >Houthis, and flew almost 1,000 miles over the Arabian peninsula on the
>> >way to its target, the Israeli port city of Eilat.”
>> >
>> >“While the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) has released few details about
>> >the interception, the Air Force is known to operate several batteries of
>> >the Arrow 2 system, which uses a hypersonic interceptor to take out
>> >incoming missiles in space.”
>> Except the article proceed to identify it as a Quader (Ghader) missile
>> which is an anti-ship cruise missile. So they intercepted a low flying
>> (3-5m) turbojet driven missile in space?! Wow :-)
>>
>> It's then identified as a derivate of the Iranian Shahab-3 which makes
>> much more sense, this is a theather ballistic missile (MRBM, less than
>> 3000 km range) rather than an IRBM (3000-5500km range) or ICBM (global
>> range).
>>
>> It has more than enough range for this and makes FAR more sense than
>> this being an ICBM or even IRBM. And it's clearly not a cruise missile
>> either.
>>
>> With the much shorter range comes both much lower peak speeds and way
>> lower apogee, as I understand it MRBM like this tends to peak at
>> around Mach 7-9 @ 20-30km which is very different compared to trying
>> to intercept an ICBM which would come in at Mach 20-25 and can have an
>> apogee as high as 4500km.
>>
>> My understanding is that the Shahab-3 (even newer version) has long
>> been considered to fall within the capability of Arrow-2 or Patriot to
>> intercept.
>>
>> If it was a MRBM it also explains why they intercepted it using the
>> "middle height" Arrow-2 instead of the bigger and much more capable
>> Arrow-3 missile which is intended for space intercepts of IRBM and
>> ICBM.
>>
>> Also, the article says residents reported a large explosion - another
>> suggestion that it was likely not a "space intercept" (no one can hear
>> you scream in space).
>>
>> Iran likely HAS ICBM's (Shahab-6) but those would be far larger and
>> besides way too sensitive for them to be gallivanting around to Yemen
>> with. And FAR less deniable.
>> >First, who knew that Yemen had joined the ICBM Club ?
>> Ballistic Missile != ICBM.
>>
>> My guess - Iran pulled a obsolete Shahab-3A (original model, end of
>> production 2008) and sent it to Yemen, with full crew. Possibly the
>> oldest functional one they had. Someone else might have been allowed
>> to formally push the launch button but that was probably all.
>>
>> Similar to the "pro-Russian separatist" who used a Russian Buk
>> surface-to-air missile system to shoot down MH17.
>
>There are two missiles with confusing similar names.
>
>Ghader Antiship cruise missile:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghader_(missile)
>200 km range.
>
>Ghadr-110 MRBM, surface to surface
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghadr-110
>2000 km range

Thanks, the original article specifically said Qader, not Qadr-110,
which I made fun off (especially since I missed the soundalike one),
but I guess that's probably just an "multiple translations" issue
somewhere along the line. And the Wikipedia article lists
Qadr-110/Ghadr-110 as a derivative of Shahab 3 so that checks out.

I guess the much quicker deployment time of the new missile could lead
to Iran using the newer Ghadr-110, it might well have made logistics
much easier. Or perhaps they have disposed of the really old ones
already.

As far as I can tell the "outside atmosphere" appears to be only in
the The Telegraph coverage and articles using THEM as the source, not
in any of the other articles I find.

Nor is there any reference to altitude or space in the IDF information
I can find (english and translated via Google). They do clarify that
it was intercepted using an Arrow-2 Block 4 so we got confirmation of
the exact model - Block 5 is supposedly "coming soon" so this is their
current medium height interceptor.

It's of course possible The Telegraph had a source on their own for
their space intercept claim but given, well, UK Tabloid! I think it's
far more likely they just assumed things based statements at other
times saying things like "the defense system is designed to intercept
ballistic missiles outside the Earth's atmosphere".

Which references the entire Iron Dome system which is known to have
in-space IRBM/ICBM intercept capabilities using the larger and more
capable Arrow-3 missile which they didn't use here.

The known Arrow-2 tests have been at significantly lower altitudes
(25-60km) but there's no sources for altitudes for the Block 4 tests
and we don't know how hard they pushed in the tests.

So, it's definitely POSSIBLE it could have been a space intercept if
the Qadr-110 did go that high in this launch. Which we also don't know.

But before claiming that it definitely DID intercept in space I think
we need a much better source than an UK Tabloid. Any of them!

James Nicoll wrote:

>Young People Read Old Hugo Finalists: The Mountains of Mourning by
>Lois McMaster Bujold
>
>The final story in this phase of Young People Read Old SFF is the
>1st Bujold I read.

One comment, "testing their meddle in a hostile environment" made me
think of the Mary Worth comic strip. She's currently meddling in a case
of an ex-Marine and ex-cop who just found out that he has an adult
daughter by an old girlfriend. Both mother and daughter hate him. He's
distraught, prime meddling opportunity!

Brian

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 13:59:07 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 11/6/2023 8:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Young People Read Old Hugo Finalists: The Mountains of Mourning by
>> Lois McMaster Bujold
>>
>> The final story in this phase of Young People Read Old SFF is the
>> 1st Bujold I read.
>>
>> https://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/the-mountains-of-mourning
>
>It is definitely an amazing story, maybe the third highest rated in the
>series for me. The second being "A Civil Campaign". The first is tied
>between "Shards Of Honor" and "Barrayar".

Count me as another Miles super-fan - I especially enjoyed how he got
out of seemingly impossible + implausible situations. Though I must
confess that for several books he would have to marry and I was hoping
for Elena Bothari (daughter of his adjutant and an interesting
character in her own right).