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computers / comp.sys.raspberry-pi / Re: Google Groups

SubjectAuthor
* Google GroupsMike W
+- Re: Google GroupsChris Elvidge
+* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
|`- Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
+* Re: Google Groups68g.1499
|+* Re: Google GroupsKees Nuyt
||`- Re: Google GroupsKyonshi
|`* Re: Google GroupsSalud
| +- Re: Google GroupsBryan
| +* Re: Google GroupsBob Latham
| |`* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| | `* Re: Google GroupsBob Latham
| |  +* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  |`* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  | `- Re: Google GroupsMike Powell
| |  +* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  |`- Re: Google GroupsMike Powell
| |  +* Re: Google GroupsAhem A Rivet's Shot
| |  |+* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  ||+* Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
| |  |||+* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |  ||||`* Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
| |  |||| `* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |  ||||  `* Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
| |  ||||   +- Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |  ||||   `* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  ||||    `* Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
| |  ||||     `* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |  ||||      `* Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
| |  ||||       +* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  ||||       |+* Re: Google GroupsRichard Falken
| |  ||||       ||+- Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |  ||||       ||`- Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  ||||       |+* Re: Google GroupsAhem A Rivet's Shot
| |  ||||       ||`* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  ||||       || +- Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  ||||       || `* Re: Google GroupsAhem A Rivet's Shot
| |  ||||       ||  +* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  ||||       ||  |`* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  ||||       ||  | `* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  ||||       ||  |  `* Re: Google GroupsRichard Falken
| |  ||||       ||  |   `* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  ||||       ||  |    `- Re: Google GroupsComputer Nerd Kev
| |  ||||       ||  `* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  ||||       ||   `- Re: Google GroupsAhem A Rivet's Shot
| |  ||||       |+* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  ||||       ||+- Re: Google GroupsAhem A Rivet's Shot
| |  ||||       ||`* Re: Google GroupsRichard Falken
| |  ||||       || `* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  ||||       ||  `- Re: Google GroupsRichard Falken
| |  ||||       |`* Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
| |  ||||       | `* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  ||||       |  `* Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
| |  ||||       |   +- Re: Google GroupsAhem A Rivet's Shot
| |  ||||       |   `- Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  ||||       +- Re: Google Groupsmm0fmf
| |  ||||       `- Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  |||+* Re: Google GroupsAhem A Rivet's Shot
| |  ||||`* Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
| |  |||| `- Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |  |||`* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  ||| `* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  |||  `* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  |||   +- Re: Google GroupsAhem A Rivet's Shot
| |  |||   +- Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
| |  |||   `* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  |||    +- Re: Google GroupsAhem A Rivet's Shot
| |  |||    `* Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
| |  |||     `- Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  ||`* Re: Google GroupsMike Powell
| |  || `* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |  ||  `* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |  ||   `- Re: Google GroupsSalud
| |  |+- Re: Google GroupsMickey
| |  |`* Re: Google GroupsMike Powell
| |  | `- Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |  `* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |   `* Re: Google GroupsBob Latham
| |    +* Re: Google GroupsJim Jackson
| |    |`* Re: Google GroupsJim Jackson
| |    | `- Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |    `* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |     +* Re: Google GroupsBob Latham
| |     |`* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |     | `* Re: Google GroupsBob Latham
| |     |  +- Re: Google GroupsBob Latham
| |     |  +* Re: Google GroupsAhem A Rivet's Shot
| |     |  |`* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |     |  | `* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |     |  |  +* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |     |  |  |`* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |     |  |  | `* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |     |  |  |  `* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |     |  |  |   `- Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |     |  |  `* Re: Google GroupsBob Latham
| |     |  |   +* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |     |  |   |`- Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |     |  |   +* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |     |  |   |+- Re: Google GroupsAhem A Rivet's Shot
| |     |  |   |+* Re: Google GroupsBob Latham
| |     |  |   ||+- Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |     |  |   ||`* Re: Google GroupsTimS
| |     |  |   |`* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| |     |  |   +- Re: Google GroupsJim Jackson
| |     |  |   +* Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
| |     |  |   `* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |     |  `* Re: Google GroupsLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |     `* Re: Google GroupsThe Natural Philosopher
| `* Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter
`- Re: Google GroupsScott Alfter

Pages:1234567
Re: Google Groups

<l2jktdFkm0cU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: tim...@streater.me.uk (TimS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
Date: 8 Feb 2024 09:23:58 GMT
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 by: TimS - Thu, 8 Feb 2024 09:23 UTC

On 07 Feb 2024 at 23:36:18 GMT, "Scott Alfter" <Scott Alfter> wrote:

> In article <uq0s9j$1jgqa$3@dont-email.me>,
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2024 16:26:23 GMT, Scott Alfter wrote:
>>
>>> In article <upvb9o$1b4u9$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It’s worked really well in Australia. That’s what scares the US gun
>>>> nuts.
>>>
>>> By "worked really well," you meant to say that crime has skyrocketed,
>>> right?
>>
>> I mean that mass shootings have become something of a rarity in Australia
>> now. Whereas they are a weekly occurrence in the USA.
>
> Hardly, at least not in the civilized parts of the country. Somewhere like
> Chicago or DC (to pick a couple)? They're getting what they voted for, good
> and hard, and them doing more of the same isn't going to improve their lot.

I assume you refer to the "defunding of the police"? That this could happen at
all is just another indication that the basic structures of governance are
badly organised where you are. Here, there is complete separation between the
police (paid for by a local tax but organised much more nationally) and local
government. This also applies to traffic enforcement, so that traffic fines
accrue to the state, not local government. I observed this at first hand when
I had a speeding ticket in California. I went to traffic school and at the
close of the session, a little old lady asked whether quotas existed. The
convenor (an off-duty San Francisco cop), eventually said "Yes, but no one
would ever admit that publicly."

What this refers to (I eventually discovered) is that if the city runs low on
funds, the Mayor tells the police chief about it, and the traffic cops get
told to go out and not come back without (say) three sitter and four movers.
Meaning that, as a way for the city to raise some funds, they book people for
trivial infringements that would otherwise have been overlooked. This smells
like legalised banditry to me.

It comes down to structures, and you folk need to realise this.

--
Tim

Re: Google Groups

<uq289f$1tfdb$7@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 09:52:47 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 8 Feb 2024 09:52 UTC

On 07/02/2024 18:03, TimS wrote:

>
> Friend Scott overlooks that with a knife, there is some chance of running away
> from the situation. Rather less so if Chummy can plug you with his handgun
> from a distance.
>
It is extremely difficult to 'plug someone from a distance' with a handgun.

Even I, who have never fired one, know that. That's why we have rifles,
which I have fired.

In fact many fatalities are from handguns rounds that hit entirely the
wrong person altogether, by sheer chance.

There was a story I saw re-enacted on TV, where a friendly barbecue was
having fun shooting at water melons on poles. Then the wife was invited
to 'have a go'. Being short, she had to shoot *upwards*, and the round
travelled several blocks and killed someone in their garden.

She could never have done that by aiming at them.

I think the effective accurate range of a handgun is probably little
more than 5 meters, and in the hands of the average person, not even that.

--
“The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.”

Herbert Spencer

Re: Google Groups

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 09:57:51 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 8 Feb 2024 09:57 UTC

On 07/02/2024 19:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Feb 2024 09:27:44 +0000 (GMT), Bob Latham wrote:
>
>> I know nothing of arstechnica but I am very aware that the Guardian like
>> the BBC is not interested in the truth at all.
>
> Did you hear this from some random loony on Facebook?

No, its an opinion framed by reading/listening to them.

There is an apocryphal statement allegedly made by I think Mark Twain,
more or less along the lines that :

"One can rely on the accuracy of newspapers except in a subject one has
direct and comprehensive knowledge of".

Sadly I found this to be completely true.

Which is why I read the Daily Express, No one believes for an instant
that it is actually telling the truth.

If there is a story that looks interesting I research it elsewhere...

--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

Re: Google Groups

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 8 Feb 2024 10:31 UTC

On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 09:52:47 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 07/02/2024 18:03, TimS wrote:
>
> >
> > Friend Scott overlooks that with a knife, there is some chance of
> > running away from the situation. Rather less so if Chummy can plug you
> > with his handgun from a distance.
> >
> It is extremely difficult to 'plug someone from a distance' with a
> handgun.

No it's just difficult to plug the person you're aiming at. Hitting
a bystander is a matter of probability depending on the density of
bystanders and the distance the bullet flies. Close your eyes and fire
randomly on a busy street and you'll likely hit someone well before the
clip empties. (please do not try this experiment).

> In fact many fatalities are from handguns rounds that hit entirely the
> wrong person altogether, by sheer chance.

Precisely, whereas accidentally knifing the wrong person is
extremely rare. If somebody wants to murder someone else badly enough they
will find a way, I would prefer that the method they find isn't one that
leads to killing the wrong person by accident.

Accidental killing and mass/random shootings are the most
unacceptable aspects of guns[1] and they are far more common in the US than
anywhere else.

[1] No other weapon lends itself to them so well. Bows come a distant
second.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

Re: Google Groups

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Subject: Re: Google Groups
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From: sco...@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter)
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 by: Scott Alfter - Thu, 8 Feb 2024 17:06 UTC

In article <l2jktdFkm0cU1@mid.individual.net>,
TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>On 07 Feb 2024 at 23:36:18 GMT, "Scott Alfter" <Scott Alfter> wrote:
>
>> In article <uq0s9j$1jgqa$3@dont-email.me>,
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2024 16:26:23 GMT, Scott Alfter wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <upvb9o$1b4u9$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It’s worked really well in Australia. That’s what scares the US gun
>>>>> nuts.
>>>>
>>>> By "worked really well," you meant to say that crime has skyrocketed,
>>>> right?
>>>
>>> I mean that mass shootings have become something of a rarity in Australia
>>> now. Whereas they are a weekly occurrence in the USA.
>>
>> Hardly, at least not in the civilized parts of the country. Somewhere like
>> Chicago or DC (to pick a couple)? They're getting what they voted for, good
>> and hard, and them doing more of the same isn't going to improve their lot.
>
>I assume you refer to the "defunding of the police"?

No, though that doesn't help either. Both have blatantly unconstitutional
gun-control regimes in place...the sort of laws that the hoplophobes assert
without evidence would reduce crime. (DC v. Heller rolled back some of this
nonsense.)

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

Re: Google Groups

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
References: <7d12b7c7-1764-40cb-ac2c-a602fc55d5d3n@googlegroups.com> <uq0g73$1hdfc$2@dont-email.me> <l2huv6Fbmt3U1@mid.individual.net> <uq289f$1tfdb$7@dont-email.me>
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From: sco...@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter)
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 by: Scott Alfter - Thu, 8 Feb 2024 17:10 UTC

In article <uq289f$1tfdb$7@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>I think the effective accurate range of a handgun is probably little
>more than 5 meters, and in the hands of the average person, not even that.

I usually set up man-sized silhouette targets 7-10 yards out when shooting
handguns. It's not that difficult to keep most of your hits within the
silhouette, even though I don't practice nearly as much as I should.

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

Re: Google Groups

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
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 by: Scott Alfter - Thu, 8 Feb 2024 17:16 UTC

In article <uq28iv$1tfdb$8@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 07/02/2024 19:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2024 09:27:44 +0000 (GMT), Bob Latham wrote:
>>
>>> I know nothing of arstechnica but I am very aware that the Guardian like
>>> the BBC is not interested in the truth at all.
>>
>> Did you hear this from some random loony on Facebook?
>
>No, its an opinion framed by reading/listening to them.
>
>There is an apocryphal statement allegedly made by I think Mark Twain,
>more or less along the lines that :
>
>"One can rely on the accuracy of newspapers except in a subject one has
>direct and comprehensive knowledge of".

A bit more pessimistic opinion of the press is put forth by Michael
Crichton:

Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the
newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case,
physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the
journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the
issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story
backward--reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause
rain" stories. Paper's full of them.

In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors
in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and
read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about
Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget
what you know.

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

Re: Google Groups

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 17:22:11 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 8 Feb 2024 17:22 UTC

On 08/02/2024 17:10, Scott Alfter wrote:
> In article <uq289f$1tfdb$7@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I think the effective accurate range of a handgun is probably little
>> more than 5 meters, and in the hands of the average person, not even that.
>
> I usually set up man-sized silhouette targets 7-10 yards out when shooting
> handguns. It's not that difficult to keep most of your hits within the
> silhouette, even though I don't practice nearly as much as I should.

YOU practice. How many street gang members bother to do that? They just
wave them 'in the general direction' and loose off a penis-enlarging
series of shots..

YOU are interested in guns for sporting use, YOU take care of your guns,
YOU practice to know how to use them.

YOU are not the person who is going to do a drive by shooting from a
moving car...

--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

Re: Google Groups

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From: ldo...@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 23:51:43 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Lawrence D'Oliv - Thu, 8 Feb 2024 23:51 UTC

On Thu, 08 Feb 2024 08:55:22 +0000 (GMT), Bob Latham wrote:

> In article <uq0miv$1iire$1@dont-email.me>,
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2024 09:27:44 +0000 (GMT), Bob Latham wrote:
>
>>> I know nothing of arstechnica but I am very aware that the Guardian
>>> like the BBC is not interested in the truth at all.
>
>> Did you hear this from some random loony on Facebook?
>
> I don't have a Facebook account.
>
> My opinion was formed by own experiences and observations.

Does that mean you have actually researched Elon Musk? Or are you relying
on other second-hand accounts of him, that you, for some reason, deem more
reliable than these?

Re: Google Groups

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From: ldo...@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
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 by: Lawrence D'Oliv - Fri, 9 Feb 2024 04:51 UTC

On Thu, 08 Feb 2024 17:06:21 GMT, Scott Alfter wrote:

> Both have blatantly unconstitutional gun-control regimes in place...the
> sort of laws that the hoplophobes assert without evidence would reduce
> crime.

It worked in Australia. The secret is, it’s not enough to outlaw the
assault-style weapons, you also need to have a buyback scheme to force
them out of circulation.

The result is the mass killings dropped away from one a year to less than
one a decade. That’s a pretty good improvement, don’t you think?

Re: Google Groups

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 09:45:56 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Bob Latham - Fri, 9 Feb 2024 09:45 UTC

In article <uq3pef$26ubh$6@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Feb 2024 08:55:22 +0000 (GMT), Bob Latham wrote:

> > In article <uq0miv$1iire$1@dont-email.me>,
> > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 07 Feb 2024 09:27:44 +0000 (GMT), Bob Latham wrote:
> >
> >>> I know nothing of arstechnica but I am very aware that the
> >>> Guardian like the BBC is not interested in the truth at all.
> >
> >> Did you hear this from some random loony on Facebook?
> >
> > I don't have a Facebook account.
> >
> > My opinion was formed by own experiences and observations.

> Does that mean you have actually researched Elon Musk?

No of course not, I'm not obsessed.

> Or are you relying on other second-hand accounts of him,

No again. I read what he posts and see what he blocks and what he
doesn't. He's not perfect but seems to be far more free speech than
any of the other major platforms. That's a big plus for me.

People who wish to stop others speaking are afraid of what they may
say. If you have truth on your side, why would someone else's words
bother you? Liars like to crush free speech and will be on the wrong
side of history, never been a good sensor, they're evil. A few
exceptions, incitement, porn etc.

If you want truth, read the silenced !!

> that you, for some reason, deem more reliable than these?

Not connected to musk but you learn who to trust and who not trust. I
see the same people on a whole range of topics who view things
similar to myself and the same people who IMHO say and do obviously
ridiculous things. So yes, I expect what I see as madness from one
group and old fashioned reason, logic etc. from another. There is not
much variation in the two groups, they are predictable and static.

Bob.

Re: Google Groups

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
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 by: Bob Latham - Fri, 9 Feb 2024 10:44 UTC

In article <5b2fecdaffbob@sick-of-spam.invalid>,
Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> I read what he posts and see what he blocks and what he doesn't.
> He's not perfect but seems to be far more free speech than any of
> the other major platforms. That's a big plus for me.

I should have added that I strongly disagree with him on CO2.

Bob.

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 11:51:34 +0000
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Fri, 9 Feb 2024 11:51 UTC

On Fri, 09 Feb 2024 09:45:56 +0000 (GMT)
Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> People who wish to stop others speaking are afraid of what they may
> say. If you have truth on your side, why would someone else's words
> bother you? Liars like to crush free speech and will be on the wrong
> side of history, never been a good sensor, they're evil. A few
> exceptions, incitement, porn etc.

There you have it. Either there are no exceptions to free speech or
the only argument is about where to draw the line. Wherever the line
happens to be drawn those who want to make it more restrictive are accused
of "crushing free speech" while those who want to make it less restrictive
are accused of "facilitating evil" - whatever the real reasons for wanting
change may be.

How much disinformation should we tolerate in the interests of free
speech? None would silence pretty much everybody including elected
politicians and major news outlets - Unlimited well maybe but perhaps after
a generation has grown up with critical thinking on the school syllabus.
Also who decides what is disinformation and what is suppressed facts being
leaked? When everyone is accused of lying what can you believe?

The desire to be able to point to (at least) one good trustworthy
source where no lies are told is very understandable (I'd love to see one),
the belief that one can exist is perhaps optimistic, the belief that one
does is naive. We all make the best guesses we can at filtering the lies
from the facts.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

Re: Google Groups

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 9 Feb 2024 13:51 UTC

On 09/02/2024 11:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> How much disinformation should we tolerate in the interests of free
> speech?

There is an old Latin quote. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"?

It means "Who will guard the guardians?".

And it turns any argument about limiting disinformation into a cat
belling exercise.
To put it simply, who do we trust to decide what is disinformation and
what is not? Politicians? Doan make me larf. They are the biggest liars
along with lawyers and media stars that exist.

The problem is that in many cases people sincerely believe they are
telling the truth, in other cases people say they sincerely believe that
they are telling the truth, while other people claim they are lying or
sincerely *believe* they are lying or in fact can prove it.

This buggers muddle is the core of today's information wars, in which
nothing is fact, everything is opinion and commercial propaganda, and
what you believe is down to who you believe, and the art is to carefully
craft the bullshit and use someone who you respect to spoonfeed it to you.

So sports starts and hollywood icons become 'experts' in sociology and
meteorology and climatology.

Jane Fonda had nice tits, but what the fuck did she know about
*anything* beyond making soft porn movies.

Is there a solution? Yes, but its a very hard one. I for example know
for a *fact*, because it is entirely within my skill and knowledge set,
that renewable energy will never ever be a satisfactory replacement for
fossil fuels, but that nuclear power could be. I know that because of a
three year university course in electrical engineering. Plus several
years as financial director of two IT businesses. I can do accounting
sums and I can do engineering. The two together damn renewables to oblivion.

But to anyone who hasn't had that background, all that amounts to in
their eyes is just my *opinion* - that *could* be wrong. They lack the
intelligence and the concentration to follow the complex logical chains.
They are simply too lazy and not too bright, so its far EASIER to simply
'believe in someone else'.

In short controlling disinformation isn't even a matter of knowing you
are right, its a matter of convincing other people, and I haven't got
big enough tits .

People need to learn to distinguish obvious crap from less obvious crap,
and research the less obvious crap and learn about it enough to make -
not an informed decision - anyone can be 'informed' by a liar or a
propagandist - but a *reasoned* decision.

People who can't shouldn't be allowed to vote BUT

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"?

Who decides that? Just another fallible and corruptible human being?

Ultimately we shouldn't even *try* to limit what people say. We should
provide an education that doesn't brainwash and teach people *what* to
think but teaches people *how* to think.

Logic, philosophy, metaphysics...these are the hand tools you need to
disentangle facts from bullshit, and reasoned arguments from emotional
bullshit.

Teach them at age 5. They are not hard.

--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

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 by: Scott Alfter - Mon, 12 Feb 2024 18:50 UTC

In article <uq4b07$2fjnu$6@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Thu, 08 Feb 2024 17:06:21 GMT, Scott Alfter wrote:
>
>> Both have blatantly unconstitutional gun-control regimes in place...the
>> sort of laws that the hoplophobes assert without evidence would reduce
>> crime.
>
>It worked in Australia. The secret is, it’s not enough to outlaw the
>assault-style weapons, you also need to have a buyback scheme to force
>them out of circulation.

"Buybacks" are nothing of the sort. The government can't "buy back" that
which it never owned. Be honest and call it what it is: confiscation,
usually at nowhere near what the firearms involved are worth.

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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Subject: Re: Google Groups
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 by: TimS - Mon, 12 Feb 2024 19:10 UTC

On 12 Feb 2024 at 18:50:58 GMT, "Scott Alfter" <Scott Alfter> wrote:

> In article <uq4b07$2fjnu$6@dont-email.me>,
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Thu, 08 Feb 2024 17:06:21 GMT, Scott Alfter wrote:
>>
>>> Both have blatantly unconstitutional gun-control regimes in place...the
>>> sort of laws that the hoplophobes assert without evidence would reduce
>>> crime.
>>
>> It worked in Australia. The secret is, it’s not enough to outlaw the
>> assault-style weapons, you also need to have a buyback scheme to force
>> them out of circulation.
>
> "Buybacks" are nothing of the sort. The government can't "buy back" that
> which it never owned. Be honest and call it what it is: confiscation,
> usually at nowhere near what the firearms involved are worth.

We don't actually give a flying fuck about that. There was never any
justification for these weapons to be in private hands anyway.

--
Tim

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 by: mm0fmf - Mon, 12 Feb 2024 19:14 UTC

On 12/02/2024 18:50, Scott Alfter wrote:
> nowhere near what the firearms involved are worth.

As you can't own them any more and you can't export them, their value is
only a fraction of what they cost originally. Basic market supply economics.

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 by: Richard Falken - Mon, 12 Feb 2024 00:37 UTC

Re: Re: Google Groups
By: TimS to All on Mon Feb 12 2024 07:10 pm

> We don't actually give a flying fuck about that. There was never any
> justification for these weapons to be in private hands anyway.
>

The cool thing about having to justify having things is that, fundamentally,
people does not need much.

You could keep a guy trapped in a hole and feed him with a nasograstric tube,
and if he asked for anything we could deny it to him based on the assumption he
already has everything he needs in the hole you provided to him.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Mon, 12 Feb 2024 20:23 UTC

On 12 Feb 2024 19:10:53 GMT
TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:

> We don't actually give a flying fuck about that. There was never any
> justification for these weapons to be in private hands anyway.

Questionable justification for them to be in any hands IMHO.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

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 by: Lawrence D'Oliv - Tue, 13 Feb 2024 07:07 UTC

On Mon, 12 Feb 2024 13:37:46 +1300, Richard Falken wrote:

> The cool thing about having to justify having things is that,
> fundamentally, people does not need much.

They need the freedom to not have to worry about buying bulletproof
backpacks for their kids to try to ensure they survive their school years.

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 by: Lawrence D'Oliv - Tue, 13 Feb 2024 07:07 UTC

On Fri, 09 Feb 2024 09:45:56 +0000 (GMT), Bob Latham wrote:

> I read what he posts and see what he blocks and what he
> doesn't.

And yet when I give you information about that, you somehow disbelieve it.

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 by: Lawrence D'Oliv - Tue, 13 Feb 2024 07:09 UTC

On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 13:51:29 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> There is an old Latin quote. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"?
>
> It means "Who will guard the guardians?".

This is why we have things like “checks and balances” and “rule of law”,
to govern how we live together with others who may disagree with us, in
peace.

Online misinformation is a whole new can of worms.

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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 13 Feb 2024 09:17 UTC

On 12/02/2024 18:50, Scott Alfter wrote:

>
> "Buybacks" are nothing of the sort. The government can't "buy back" that
> which it never owned. Be honest and call it what it is: confiscation,
> usually at nowhere near what the firearms involved are worth.
>
Well no, confiscation is generally free of any cash reward.

'Compulsory Purchase' is the more commonly used euphemism.

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

Re: Google Groups

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Google Groups
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 09:25:29 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 13 Feb 2024 09:25 UTC

On 12/02/2024 19:10, TimS wrote:
> On 12 Feb 2024 at 18:50:58 GMT, "Scott Alfter" <Scott Alfter> wrote:
>
>> In article <uq4b07$2fjnu$6@dont-email.me>,
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 08 Feb 2024 17:06:21 GMT, Scott Alfter wrote:
>>>
>>>> Both have blatantly unconstitutional gun-control regimes in place...the
>>>> sort of laws that the hoplophobes assert without evidence would reduce
>>>> crime.
>>>
>>> It worked in Australia. The secret is, it’s not enough to outlaw the
>>> assault-style weapons, you also need to have a buyback scheme to force
>>> them out of circulation.
>>
>> "Buybacks" are nothing of the sort. The government can't "buy back" that
>> which it never owned. Be honest and call it what it is: confiscation,
>> usually at nowhere near what the firearms involved are worth.
>
> We don't actually give a flying fuck about that. There was never any
> justification for these weapons to be in private hands anyway.
>

The problem with that, is where do you draw the line?

In the UK a handgun *of any sort* is illegal outside of competition use,
the police, or the military, it having been deemed that their *only*
valid use is killing people.

The same goes for pump action shotguns, all machine or automatic
weapons, and large calibre rifles.

About all you *can* get a licence for, is a bolt action rifle up to
around .303 calibre (I think: I've never seen larger than that in a
hunters hands) and a single or twin barrelled shotgun.

Or air rifles. Which can be extremely powerful and accurate.

Is this a sensible place to draw the line?

And whilst gangland shootings may be scarce, our middle eastern friends
have brought with them a culture of knives, the larger and more vicious
the better.

--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

― Confucius

Re: Google Groups

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
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Subject: Re: Google Groups
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 13 Feb 2024 09:26 UTC

On 12/02/2024 00:37, Richard Falken wrote:
> The cool thing about having to justify having things is that, fundamentally,
> people does not need much.
>
> You could keep a guy trapped in a hole and feed him with a nasograstric tube,
> and if he asked for anything we could deny it to him based on the assumption he
> already has everything he needs in the hole you provided to him.

I think this is a suitable modus vivendi to be imposed on all
politicians, for the duration of their tenure.

--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

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