I have been re-reading E.E.Smith's Lensman series, with an eye to two recurring motifs. Smith's heroes are intensely competitive, driven, men. Their tools and weapons are kept in perfect working order, but not polished for display; they bear the scars and signs of repeated hard use. The two are linked; the drive for competitive success (within the rules) focusses attention on all and only those activities necessary for success. "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from mistakes).

Is this emphasis on competition out of date? I grew up at the start of a period when the educational establishment was working hard to stamp out competition, most notably from school sports. In the UK, parents disliked this to the point of ridiculing it. Our current government (perhaps soon to be replaced) has tried to support competition, but it is difficult for me to see how competition is consistent with an academic crusade against inequality, so I expect the struggle against competition to resume.

If there has been an effort to erase competition from education, the result does not seem to have been an improvement in the mental resilience of those currently leaving education and entering work. Could E.E.Smith's enthusiasm for competition have been justified?

On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:18:40 AM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> [snip] "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth
> occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are
> necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from
> mistakes).
>
> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? [snip]

I wouldn't say that "stress" and "competition" are always the same thing.
Competition can lead to stress, but other situations can result in stress
as well. For example, "Your ship/plane/spaceship has to outrun that
storm or else we all perish" is a stressful situation, but there is no
competition involved. Similarly, when your boss tells you that you
must fix a tricky engineering problem or you lose your job, it is likely to
lead to stress, but there is no competition per se.

On 11/12/2023 9:52 AM, Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:18:40 AM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>> [snip] "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth
>> occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are
>> necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from
>> mistakes).
>>
>> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? [snip]
>
> I wouldn't say that "stress" and "competition" are always the same thing.
> Competition can lead to stress, but other situations can result in stress
> as well. For example, "Your ship/plane/spaceship has to outrun that
> storm or else we all perish" is a stressful situation, but there is no
> competition involved. Similarly, when your boss tells you that you
> must fix a tricky engineering problem or you lose your job, it is likely to
> lead to stress, but there is no competition per se.

That's "Man versus Nature" competition (in the storm instance) and
absolutely competition with your boss in the second.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 12 Nov 2023 at 21:45:04 GMT, "Dimensional Traveler"
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

> On 11/12/2023 9:52 AM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:18:40 AM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>>> [snip] "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth
>>> occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are
>>> necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from
>>> mistakes).
>>>
>>> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? [snip]
>>
>> I wouldn't say that "stress" and "competition" are always the same thing.
>> Competition can lead to stress, but other situations can result in stress
>> as well. For example, "Your ship/plane/spaceship has to outrun that
>> storm or else we all perish" is a stressful situation, but there is no
>> competition involved. Similarly, when your boss tells you that you
>> must fix a tricky engineering problem or you lose your job, it is likely to
>> lead to stress, but there is no competition per se.
>
> That's "Man versus Nature" competition (in the storm instance) and
> absolutely competition with your boss in the second.

What sort of crazy whip-toting overseer bosses have you had?

Mine have largely been the collaborative co-op partner types.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo
- H G Wells

On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 4:29:01 PM UTC-5, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> On 12 Nov 2023 at 21:45:04 GMT, "Dimensional Traveler"
> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > On 11/12/2023 9:52 AM, Ahasuerus wrote:
> >> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:18:40 AM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> >>> [snip] "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth
> >>> occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are
> >>> necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from
> >>> mistakes).
> >>>
> >>> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? [snip]
> >>
> >> I wouldn't say that "stress" and "competition" are always the same thing.
> >> Competition can lead to stress, but other situations can result in stress
> >> as well. For example, "Your ship/plane/spaceship has to outrun that
> >> storm or else we all perish" is a stressful situation, but there is no
> >> competition involved. Similarly, when your boss tells you that you
> >> must fix a tricky engineering problem or you lose your job, it is likely to
> >> lead to stress, but there is no competition per se.
> >
> > That's "Man versus Nature" competition (in the storm instance) and
> > absolutely competition with your boss in the second.
> What sort of crazy whip-toting overseer bosses have you had?
>
> Mine have largely been the collaborative co-op partner types.

One thing I've seen in the US is a growing disdain for high stakes
tests for students.

The top 4 rated educational systems in the world, Finland,
Japan, South Korea, and Denmark, all have high stakes tests
to graduate high school.

I was educated in such an environment (UK, 1970s: O and A levels).

1. Yes, its stressful AF.
2. It works.

pt

On 11/21/2023 1:28 PM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> On 12 Nov 2023 at 21:45:04 GMT, "Dimensional Traveler"
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/12/2023 9:52 AM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>>> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:18:40 AM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>>>> [snip] "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth
>>>> occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are
>>>> necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from
>>>> mistakes).
>>>>
>>>> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? [snip]
>>>
>>> I wouldn't say that "stress" and "competition" are always the same thing.
>>> Competition can lead to stress, but other situations can result in stress
>>> as well. For example, "Your ship/plane/spaceship has to outrun that
>>> storm or else we all perish" is a stressful situation, but there is no
>>> competition involved. Similarly, when your boss tells you that you
>>> must fix a tricky engineering problem or you lose your job, it is likely to
>>> lead to stress, but there is no competition per se.
>>
>> That's "Man versus Nature" competition (in the storm instance) and
>> absolutely competition with your boss in the second.
>
> What sort of crazy whip-toting overseer bosses have you had?
>
A Kirby Vacuum franchise owner. Among others.

> Mine have largely been the collaborative co-op partner types.
>

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 4:29:01 PM UTC-5, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> On 12 Nov 2023 at 21:45:04 GMT, "Dimensional Traveler"
> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > On 11/12/2023 9:52 AM, Ahasuerus wrote:
> >> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:18:40 AM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> >>> [snip] "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth
> >>> occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are
> >>> necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from
> >>> mistakes).
> >>>
> >>> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? [snip]
> >>
> >> I wouldn't say that "stress" and "competition" are always the same thing.
> >> Competition can lead to stress, but other situations can result in stress
> >> as well. For example, "Your ship/plane/spaceship has to outrun that
> >> storm or else we all perish" is a stressful situation, but there is no
> >> competition involved. Similarly, when your boss tells you that you
> >> must fix a tricky engineering problem or you lose your job, it is likely to
> >> lead to stress, but there is no competition per se.
> >
> > That's "Man versus Nature" competition (in the storm instance) and
> > absolutely competition with your boss in the second.
> What sort of crazy whip-toting overseer bosses have you had?
>
> Mine have largely been the collaborative co-op partner types.

The scenario outlined above, i.e. "your boss tells you that you must
fix a tricky engineering problem or you lose your job" need not
involve a "crazy whip-toting overseer boss". It could be something as
simple as "If you can't fix this problem, we will lose the contract and
then we will both be out of a job".

Even if the boss is a "crazy whip-toting overseer", you are not competing
with the boss. At most you are competing with other current or potential
employees who may need to be brought on board to fix the issue that
you are not able to fix. In that sense everyone who is working for a living,
whether one is an employee or a contractor/business owner, is
competing with other members of the workforce working in the same
field.

That said, I am not sure how well scenarios pitting students against each
other prepare them for real life competition in the workplace. There *are*
certain situations involving teams competing against each other, e.g. a
potential contractor submitting a proposal to a potential client. However,
I would estimate that in most cases the competition is indirect, e.g. when
you are looking for a job.

A more accurate way to model real life pressures may involve having
students' performance measured based on a test that represents the
performance of the workforce as a whole, e.g. the ACT or the SAT.

ObSF: Asimov's "Profession" (1957).

On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 7:18:40 AM UTC-7, Andrew McDowell wrote:

> Is this emphasis on competition out of date?

To me, it seems obvious what the political issue is that is involved in the issues
you discuss.

On the one hand, it is entirely right and proper that educators should work to
ensure that the educational system helps those who are disadvantaged,
without neglecting them.

On the other hand, while peace and prosperity may reduce the apparent
urgency of doing so, clearly the prime duty of the educational system is to
produce competent individuals - including as many as possible of those who
will produce new inventions and discoveries.

A lot of things have happened to cause the educational system to mishandle
both of these valid goals.

It used to be that the mentally retarded went to special schools, and this was
also true of the deaf, the blind, and so on. Children with special needs... have
_special_ needs, which can obviously be most economically met in a classrom
where everyone has the _same_ need. As the regular school system is funded
through local property taxes, obviously it can't afford to provide anything but
a basic standardized program for healthy, normal children without any special
needs.

That went out the window. A cause of that was that many black children were
being misdiagnosed as mentally subnormal due to their social and economic
disadvantages. Or put in other special schools due to genuine behavior problems.

Laudable social goals... were addressed without apparently thinking of how the
schools were going to continue to function with new demands placed on them.

And, speaking of politics - both sides of the political spectrum had a hand in this.
The left was concerned with the laudable social goals, and would brook no delay.
The right was happy to see education become less functional, because they got
less votes from people with a college education.

John Savard

On 11/21/2023 3:28 PM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> On 12 Nov 2023 at 21:45:04 GMT, "Dimensional Traveler"
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/12/2023 9:52 AM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>>> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:18:40 AM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>>>> [snip] "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth
>>>> occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are
>>>> necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from
>>>> mistakes).
>>>>
>>>> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? [snip]
>>>
>>> I wouldn't say that "stress" and "competition" are always the same thing.
>>> Competition can lead to stress, but other situations can result in stress
>>> as well. For example, "Your ship/plane/spaceship has to outrun that
>>> storm or else we all perish" is a stressful situation, but there is no
>>> competition involved. Similarly, when your boss tells you that you
>>> must fix a tricky engineering problem or you lose your job, it is likely to
>>> lead to stress, but there is no competition per se.
>>
>> That's "Man versus Nature" competition (in the storm instance) and
>> absolutely competition with your boss in the second.
>
> What sort of crazy whip-toting overseer bosses have you had?
>
> Mine have largely been the collaborative co-op partner types.

The worse? Just two examples. Back in the days when desk phones had push
buttons for each line, we five peons each had a line but he answered
each of them so he'd know who we were talking to. After he bumped up and
I became team lead I rearranged the office so everyone was in two rows
with the openings facing across the rows so we could collaborate easily.
He came in one evening and moved some tall bookshelves between the rows
so they wouldn't waste time talking.

On 21/11/2023 16.19, Ahasuerus wrote:

> That said, I am not sure how well scenarios pitting students against each
> other prepare them for real life competition in the workplace. There *are*
> certain situations involving teams competing against each other, e.g. a
> potential contractor submitting a proposal to a potential client. However,

Speaking of putting students in competion with each other:

At the University of Wisconsin, my alma mater, all Electrical Engineering
students were required to take EE 350 in their (intended) last semester.

The course title was "Engineering Communications". It had nothing to do
with Shannon or Nyquist. Rather, it was preparation for the workplace.

Content included:
- Writing your resume
- Writing a job description for your preferred job
- Writing and presenting a technical presentation oriented to other
engineers
- Writing and presenting a technical presentation oriented to management,
on the same topic

These were all individual projects. The culmination of the semester was
a group project, which involved responding to an RFP (request for
proposal). Each section of the class (there were four sections, each
with about a dozen students) had to prepare a written proposal, resonsive
to the RFP, addressing things such as technical details, logistics,
project schedule, and pricing.

On a specified date, all four sections presented our proposals to a
jury of four EE professors, which did not include the EE 350 professor.
The jury would award the "contract" to one section, just like in real
life.

All members of the section that received the "contract award" would
get an "A" for that portion of the class grade. All members of the
other three sections, again just like in the real world, got an "F"
for that portion of their grade.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Always use apostrophe's and "quotation marks" properly.

On Tuesday, 21 November 2023 at 21:52:20 UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 4:29:01 PM UTC-5, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> > On 12 Nov 2023 at 21:45:04 GMT, "Dimensional Traveler"
> > <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On 11/12/2023 9:52 AM, Ahasuerus wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:18:40 AM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> > >>> [snip] "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth
> > >>> occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are
> > >>> necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from
> > >>> mistakes).
> > >>>
> > >>> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? [snip]
> > >>
> > >> I wouldn't say that "stress" and "competition" are always the same thing.
> > >> Competition can lead to stress, but other situations can result in stress
> > >> as well. For example, "Your ship/plane/spaceship has to outrun that
> > >> storm or else we all perish" is a stressful situation, but there is no
> > >> competition involved. Similarly, when your boss tells you that you
> > >> must fix a tricky engineering problem or you lose your job, it is likely to
> > >> lead to stress, but there is no competition per se.
> > >
> > > That's "Man versus Nature" competition (in the storm instance) and
> > > absolutely competition with your boss in the second.
> > What sort of crazy whip-toting overseer bosses have you had?
> >
> > Mine have largely been the collaborative co-op partner types.
> One thing I've seen in the US is a growing disdain for high stakes
> tests for students.
>
> The top 4 rated educational systems in the world, Finland,
> Japan, South Korea, and Denmark, all have high stakes tests
> to graduate high school.
>
> I was educated in such an environment (UK, 1970s: O and A levels).
>
> 1. Yes, its stressful AF.
> 2. It works.

It works for candidates who survive. Not all do.

And I say so, having found most school
end-of-year exams fun. Call me Hermione.
....Don't call me Hermione.

(University was a shock. Oh, well.)

Statistics probably are improved by removing
"poor" students from education early, not even
entering the "final" year. To some extent, by
removing anxious students from being alive.

Many students who do pass those high stakes
tests have spent a lot of money on being prepared
to do so. I think that extra home tuition, and extra
school lessons running while the regular schools
are on holiday, are things that happen more in
Japan and in South Korea then in most of the other
countries you mentioned, including the UK, but still,
the success you're claiming is success of an education
that is expensive.

England did stream students into grammar schools,
which were expensive public provision and quite good,
and "Secondary Modern", which was cheap and bad.
Students in the expensive schools did well under the
Sorting Hat's favour. I think this programme of
segregation was eventually ended, against much
resistance by... adults who had attended grammar
schools, I suppose, and who thought that they
themselves were the elite. They weren't, of course.

On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 8:45:59 PM UTC, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 November 2023 at 21:52:20 UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 4:29:01 PM UTC-5, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> > > On 12 Nov 2023 at 21:45:04 GMT, "Dimensional Traveler"
> > > <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 11/12/2023 9:52 AM, Ahasuerus wrote:
> > > >> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:18:40 AM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> > > >>> [snip] "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth
> > > >>> occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are
> > > >>> necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from
> > > >>> mistakes).
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? [snip]
> > > >>
> > > >> I wouldn't say that "stress" and "competition" are always the same thing.
> > > >> Competition can lead to stress, but other situations can result in stress
> > > >> as well. For example, "Your ship/plane/spaceship has to outrun that
> > > >> storm or else we all perish" is a stressful situation, but there is no
> > > >> competition involved. Similarly, when your boss tells you that you
> > > >> must fix a tricky engineering problem or you lose your job, it is likely to
> > > >> lead to stress, but there is no competition per se.
> > > >
> > > > That's "Man versus Nature" competition (in the storm instance) and
> > > > absolutely competition with your boss in the second.
> > > What sort of crazy whip-toting overseer bosses have you had?
> > >
> > > Mine have largely been the collaborative co-op partner types.
> > One thing I've seen in the US is a growing disdain for high stakes
> > tests for students.
> >
> > The top 4 rated educational systems in the world, Finland,
> > Japan, South Korea, and Denmark, all have high stakes tests
> > to graduate high school.
> >
> > I was educated in such an environment (UK, 1970s: O and A levels).
> >
> > 1. Yes, its stressful AF.
> > 2. It works.
> It works for candidates who survive. Not all do.
>
> And I say so, having found most school
> end-of-year exams fun. Call me Hermione.
> ...Don't call me Hermione.
>
> (University was a shock. Oh, well.)
>
> Statistics probably are improved by removing
> "poor" students from education early, not even
> entering the "final" year. To some extent, by
> removing anxious students from being alive.
>
> Many students who do pass those high stakes
> tests have spent a lot of money on being prepared
> to do so. I think that extra home tuition, and extra
> school lessons running while the regular schools
> are on holiday, are things that happen more in
> Japan and in South Korea then in most of the other
> countries you mentioned, including the UK, but still,
> the success you're claiming is success of an education
> that is expensive.
>
> England did stream students into grammar schools,
> which were expensive public provision and quite good,
> and "Secondary Modern", which was cheap and bad.
> Students in the expensive schools did well under the
> Sorting Hat's favour. I think this programme of
> segregation was eventually ended, against much
> resistance by... adults who had attended grammar
> schools, I suppose, and who thought that they
> themselves were the elite. They weren't, of course.
I went to a N.Ireland Grammar school, with which I was very pleased at the time and in retrospect. We were driven to schoolwork by teachers, not by competition between children. School sports were competitive to UK standards - so not as I hear is the case in some parts of the US where apparently there is interest beyond the children and their families, but not infected by the "there must be no losers" idea. My Father and a few of his close friends were teachers, all keen on Comprehensive (non-selective) education. One thing did strike me - our Grammar school aimed to prepare its pupils to take the exams they needed to get into University, and it did a pretty good job of that - but it is not obvious that the Secondary school had any idea what it was supposed to be teaching its students, or why. A few secondary school pupils could go on to the local Technical College, and some could even work their way through from there to legal or accountancy qualifications, but many secondary school pupils left with almost no qualifications, and the secondary school seemed to have no liason with local employers that would tell it how to prepare people to work (my Father would probably have known if it did, as he worked there for a few years).

In article <ujl3p1$1c4vf$1@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 21/11/2023 16.19, Ahasuerus wrote:
>
>> That said, I am not sure how well scenarios pitting students against each
>> other prepare them for real life competition in the workplace. There *are*
>> certain situations involving teams competing against each other, e.g. a
>> potential contractor submitting a proposal to a potential client. However,
>
>
>Speaking of putting students in competion with each other:
>
[snip]

60 years ago, my father was involved in a contentious squabble over
a UWaterloo program called Phyics for Engineers. The issue was that
only elite engineering students could get in. This was deemed by
some to suggest that maybe not all engineers were equally elite.
Some might be less elite. In the end, the program was quashed.

I suspect on little basis that PfE may have played a role in
my father's brief deportation for folk music, that one of the
anties dropped a dime on him letting the RCMP know Bill owned
a banjo.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 9:38:30 AM UTC-5, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 21/11/2023 16.19, Ahasuerus wrote:
>
> > That said, I am not sure how well scenarios pitting students against each
> > other prepare them for real life competition in the workplace. There *are*
> > certain situations involving teams competing against each other, e.g. a
> > potential contractor submitting a proposal to a potential client. However,
> Speaking of putting students in competion with each other:
>
> At the University of Wisconsin, my alma mater, all Electrical Engineering
> students were required to take EE 350 in their (intended) last semester.
>
> The course title was "Engineering Communications". It had nothing to do
> with Shannon or Nyquist. Rather, it was preparation for the workplace.
>
> Content included:
> - Writing your resume
> - Writing a job description for your preferred job
> - Writing and presenting a technical presentation oriented to other
> engineers
> - Writing and presenting a technical presentation oriented to management,
> on the same topic
>
> These were all individual projects. The culmination of the semester was
> a group project, which involved responding to an RFP (request for
> proposal). Each section of the class (there were four sections, each
> with about a dozen students) had to prepare a written proposal, resonsive
> to the RFP, addressing things such as technical details, logistics,
> project schedule, and pricing.
>
> On a specified date, all four sections presented our proposals to a
> jury of four EE professors, which did not include the EE 350 professor.
> The jury would award the "contract" to one section, just like in real
> life.
>
> All members of the section that received the "contract award" would
> get an "A" for that portion of the class grade. All members of the
> other three sections, again just like in the real world, got an "F"
> for that portion of their grade.

This is a reasonable representation of how certain types of proposals work.
However, in certain other cases rejected proposals generate marginal
reputational gains for its authors and/or for the company that submits it.

In some fields it's often the only way to advance. For example, audition
rejections are a fact of life for most actors, but it all adds up.

ObSF: _Double Star_, perhaps?

On 2023-11-12, Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
> I have been re-reading E.E.Smith's Lensman series, with an eye to two recurring motifs. Smith's heroes are intensely competitive, driven, men. Their tools and weapons are kept in perfect working order, but not polished for display; they bear the scars and signs of repeated hard use. The two are linked; the drive for competitive success (within the rules) focusses attention on all and only those activities necessary for success. "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from mistakes).
>
> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? I grew up at the start of a period when the educational establishment was working hard to stamp out competition, most notably from school sports. In the UK, parents disliked this to the point of ridiculing it. Our current government (perhaps soon to be replaced) has tried to support competition, but it is difficult for me to see how competition is consistent with an academic crusade against inequality, so I expect the struggle against competition to resume.
>
> If there has been an effort to erase competition from education, the result does not seem to have been an improvement in the mental resilience of those currently leaving education and entering work. Could E.E.Smith's enthusiasm for competition have been justified?

Nice topic. I'm going to break my response into several messages/aspects to
(somewhat) avoid a wall of text (addressing mental aspects later).

For the TL;DR folks: Different cultures treat stress and competition
differently, even the very academically competitive ones.

I agree with Ahasuerus's comment that stress and competition are worth
separating out a bit. Competition engenders stress certainly, but
both have other components. So is it stress or competition that is
important?

Chinese fantasy webnovels, in general, agree with E.E.Smith's belief
that stress is essential to growth. Stress is voluntarily either
imposed or sought out in order for the MC (main character) to
grow. Clan elders or gods choose to impose stress on the young
ones. The MC's choose to search out stressful situations, even
life-death battles, just to grow. Academic competitions are also very
common.

Korean and Japanese fantasy webnovels do not emphasize choice of
stress. There is still growth from stress, but it is external
unavoidable problems. In Korea it is often invasion of country by
monsters. In Japan it is often MC gets involuntarily transported to a
new world and has to learn to prosper. Academic competitions are still
common, but less than in China.

In the real world all three cultures equally intensely value
academic competition, much more than US and Europe. There's a
lot of stress on the kids (at least the ones in the academic tracks.)

I've watched a fair number of Chinese American kids grow from age 6 to
16. My exercise sport is table tennis, and my club has a large,
excellent kids program which is probably 2/3 Chinese American. Some
of the kids felt large stress/pressure at times. But it was almost all
self-imposed (though perhaps indirectly imposed by parents). It was the kids
saying "if I'm going to do this, I'm going to try my best and I know I
can do better than this."

This was very different from what I saw in my son's 8 years of youth
baseball. There were equal numbers of crying breakdowns, but in baseball
they were predominantly directly caused by the parents. "Why did you make
that mistake; I practiced it so much with you?" My son later became an
umpire for several years, but gave it up because of the parents.

Evaluation and thus inevitably competition is needed for kids - that's
how they learn that their own efforts and hard work can improve
themselves. But managing the type and amount of stress they feel
is difficult.

Chris

On 11/22/2023 7:01 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2023-11-12, Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>> I have been re-reading E.E.Smith's Lensman series, with an eye to two recurring motifs. Smith's heroes are intensely competitive, driven, men. Their tools and weapons are kept in perfect working order, but not polished for display; they bear the scars and signs of repeated hard use. The two are linked; the drive for competitive success (within the rules) focusses attention on all and only those activities necessary for success. "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from mistakes).
>>
>> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? I grew up at the start of a period when the educational establishment was working hard to stamp out competition, most notably from school sports. In the UK, parents disliked this to the point of ridiculing it. Our current government (perhaps soon to be replaced) has tried to support competition, but it is difficult for me to see how competition is consistent with an academic crusade against inequality, so I expect the struggle against competition to resume.
>>
>> If there has been an effort to erase competition from education, the result does not seem to have been an improvement in the mental resilience of those currently leaving education and entering work. Could E.E.Smith's enthusiasm for competition have been justified?
>
> Nice topic. I'm going to break my response into several messages/aspects to
> (somewhat) avoid a wall of text (addressing mental aspects later).
>
> For the TL;DR folks: Different cultures treat stress and competition
> differently, even the very academically competitive ones.
>
> I agree with Ahasuerus's comment that stress and competition are worth
> separating out a bit. Competition engenders stress certainly, but
> both have other components. So is it stress or competition that is
> important?
>
> Chinese fantasy webnovels, in general, agree with E.E.Smith's belief
> that stress is essential to growth.

From personal experience stress is NOT essential to growth. Enough
stress will actually retard growth in the real world and cause real harm
both mentally and physically.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 2023-11-23, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 11/22/2023 7:01 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>> On 2023-11-12, Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>>> I have been re-reading E.E.Smith's Lensman series, with an eye to two recurring motifs. Smith's heroes are intensely competitive, driven, men. Their tools and weapons are kept in perfect working order, but not polished for display; they bear the scars and signs of repeated hard use. The two are linked; the drive for competitive success (within the rules) focusses attention on all and only those activities necessary for success. "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from mistakes).
>>>
>>> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? I grew up at the start of a period when the educational establishment was working hard to stamp out competition, most notably from school sports. In the UK, parents disliked this to the point of ridiculing it. Our current government (perhaps soon to be replaced) has tried to support competition, but it is difficult for me to see how competition is consistent with an academic crusade against inequality, so I expect the struggle against competition to resume.
>>>
>>> If there has been an effort to erase competition from education, the result does not seem to have been an improvement in the mental resilience of those currently leaving education and entering work. Could E.E.Smith's enthusiasm for competition have been justified?
>>
>> Nice topic. I'm going to break my response into several messages/aspects to
>> (somewhat) avoid a wall of text (addressing mental aspects later).
>>
>> For the TL;DR folks: Different cultures treat stress and competition
>> differently, even the very academically competitive ones.
>>
>> I agree with Ahasuerus's comment that stress and competition are worth
>> separating out a bit. Competition engenders stress certainly, but
>> both have other components. So is it stress or competition that is
>> important?
>>
>> Chinese fantasy webnovels, in general, agree with E.E.Smith's belief
>> that stress is essential to growth.
>
> From personal experience stress is NOT essential to growth. Enough
> stress will actually retard growth in the real world and cause real harm
> both mentally and physically.

I would agree that enough stress will do that in real life. The Chinese
answer in these webnovels seems to be:
1. The ability to manage stress can and must be trained.
2. If you can't manage the stress, you're not the main character or a
MC friend. The fatality rate for non-MCs is very high!

The overall view of in these Chinese webnovels is that there are
always more untrained citizens to winnow out - the main thing of
importance is the power of those that survive and the MC must strive
to be one of them.

Given China's population, you can see how that attitude can develop.

Herbert's _The Dosadi Experiment_ would be a non-Chinese high-population
induces immense competitive stress promoting growth.

Chris

On 11/22/2023 8:09 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2023-11-23, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 11/22/2023 7:01 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-12, Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>>>> I have been re-reading E.E.Smith's Lensman series, with an eye to two recurring motifs. Smith's heroes are intensely competitive, driven, men. Their tools and weapons are kept in perfect working order, but not polished for display; they bear the scars and signs of repeated hard use. The two are linked; the drive for competitive success (within the rules) focusses attention on all and only those activities necessary for success. "Children of the Lens" emphasises a third element - personal growth occurs only in response to stress; the situations necessary for growth are necessarily unpleasant (and may involve admitting to and learning from mistakes).
>>>>
>>>> Is this emphasis on competition out of date? I grew up at the start of a period when the educational establishment was working hard to stamp out competition, most notably from school sports. In the UK, parents disliked this to the point of ridiculing it. Our current government (perhaps soon to be replaced) has tried to support competition, but it is difficult for me to see how competition is consistent with an academic crusade against inequality, so I expect the struggle against competition to resume.
>>>>
>>>> If there has been an effort to erase competition from education, the result does not seem to have been an improvement in the mental resilience of those currently leaving education and entering work. Could E.E.Smith's enthusiasm for competition have been justified?
>>>
>>> Nice topic. I'm going to break my response into several messages/aspects to
>>> (somewhat) avoid a wall of text (addressing mental aspects later).
>>>
>>> For the TL;DR folks: Different cultures treat stress and competition
>>> differently, even the very academically competitive ones.
>>>
>>> I agree with Ahasuerus's comment that stress and competition are worth
>>> separating out a bit. Competition engenders stress certainly, but
>>> both have other components. So is it stress or competition that is
>>> important?
>>>
>>> Chinese fantasy webnovels, in general, agree with E.E.Smith's belief
>>> that stress is essential to growth.
>>
>> From personal experience stress is NOT essential to growth. Enough
>> stress will actually retard growth in the real world and cause real harm
>> both mentally and physically.
>
> I would agree that enough stress will do that in real life. The Chinese
> answer in these webnovels seems to be:
> 1. The ability to manage stress can and must be trained.
> 2. If you can't manage the stress, you're not the main character or a
> MC friend. The fatality rate for non-MCs is very high!
>
> The overall view of in these Chinese webnovels is that there are
> always more untrained citizens to winnow out - the main thing of
> importance is the power of those that survive and the MC must strive
> to be one of them.
>
> Given China's population, you can see how that attitude can develop.
>
And it has been a significant factor in the fact that China is facing a
population _implosion_.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 2023-11-23, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 11/22/2023 8:09 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>> On 2023-11-23, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 11/22/2023 7:01 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:

....

>>>> Chinese fantasy webnovels, in general, agree with E.E.Smith's belief
>>>> that stress is essential to growth.
>>>
>>> From personal experience stress is NOT essential to growth. Enough
>>> stress will actually retard growth in the real world and cause real harm
>>> both mentally and physically.
>>
>> I would agree that enough stress will do that in real life. The Chinese
>> answer in these webnovels seems to be:
>> 1. The ability to manage stress can and must be trained.
>> 2. If you can't manage the stress, you're not the main character or a
>> MC friend. The fatality rate for non-MCs is very high!
>>
>> The overall view of in these Chinese webnovels is that there are
>> always more untrained citizens to winnow out - the main thing of
>> importance is the power of those that survive and the MC must strive
>> to be one of them.
>>
>> Given China's population, you can see how that attitude can develop.
>>
> And it has been a significant factor in the fact that China is facing a
> population _implosion_.

I would agree. China's one-child program was both needed and tremendously
successful, but their culture hasn't caught up to that success yet. It
takes time to change culture.

Chris

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 21:11:30 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <ujl3p1$1c4vf$1@dont-email.me>,
>Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 21/11/2023 16.19, Ahasuerus wrote:
>>
>>> That said, I am not sure how well scenarios pitting students against each
>>> other prepare them for real life competition in the workplace. There *are*
>>> certain situations involving teams competing against each other, e.g. a
>>> potential contractor submitting a proposal to a potential client. However,
>>
>>
>>Speaking of putting students in competion with each other:
>>
>[snip]
>
>60 years ago, my father was involved in a contentious squabble over
>a UWaterloo program called Phyics for Engineers. The issue was that
>only elite engineering students could get in. This was deemed by
>some to suggest that maybe not all engineers were equally elite.
>Some might be less elite. In the end, the program was quashed.

Well, yes, making it available only to the "elite" does suggest
something about those not admitted. And, sadly, the "something" might
have more to do with social class or skin color or gender than with
actual ability.

OTOH, if it /must/ be selective, selecting based on GPA in Engineering
courses might fly. Or not, depending.

>I suspect on little basis that PfE may have played a role in
>my father's brief deportation for folk music, that one of the
>anties dropped a dime on him letting the RCMP know Bill owned
>a banjo.

I wasn't aware that banjos were outlawed in Canada, even in the 60s.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 23 Nov 2023 04:09:54 GMT, Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:

>On 2023-11-23, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 11/22/2023 7:01 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
<snippo>
>>> Chinese fantasy webnovels, in general, agree with E.E.Smith's belief
>>> that stress is essential to growth.
>>
>> From personal experience stress is NOT essential to growth. Enough
>> stress will actually retard growth in the real world and cause real harm
>> both mentally and physically.
>
>I would agree that enough stress will do that in real life. The Chinese
>answer in these webnovels seems to be:
>1. The ability to manage stress can and must be trained.
>2. If you can't manage the stress, you're not the main character or a
> MC friend. The fatality rate for non-MCs is very high!

Point 1 is not unreasonable. To not learn to manage stress is to not
learn a very useful life skill.

But there is the saying

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

which implies that an alternative exists to remaining under stress.
This would probably be in contrast with the attitude in your point 2.

As to the topic:
I don't like sports, but, really, how can team sports not be
competitive, at least when more than one school is putting up a team?

Even Chess is competitive, when found in tournement form.

OTOH, when my workgroup ("team") won second place in a
decorate-the-workplace contest, I was not thrilled at their idea of
marching around loudly proclaiming "We're No. 2". This is something to
be proud of?
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 23 Nov 2023 03:01:13 GMT, Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:

>I've watched a fair number of Chinese American kids grow from age 6 to
>16. My exercise sport is table tennis, and my club has a large,
>excellent kids program which is probably 2/3 Chinese American. Some
>of the kids felt large stress/pressure at times. But it was almost all
>self-imposed (though perhaps indirectly imposed by parents). It was the kids
>saying "if I'm going to do this, I'm going to try my best and I know I
>can do better than this."
>

As someone involved in organization of chess events I see very much of
the same. Now we DO have strict conduct rules during tournaments but
overwhelmingly the problem people are the parents not the kids (other
than that kids tend to be rambunctuous and can be noisy which is not a
problem except when they're downto the last 10 players to finish in
the round)

On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 08:50:54 -0800, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On 23 Nov 2023 04:09:54 GMT, Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2023-11-23, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 11/22/2023 7:01 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
><snippo>
>>>> Chinese fantasy webnovels, in general, agree with E.E.Smith's belief
>>>> that stress is essential to growth.
>>>
>>> From personal experience stress is NOT essential to growth. Enough
>>> stress will actually retard growth in the real world and cause real harm
>>> both mentally and physically.
>>
>>I would agree that enough stress will do that in real life. The Chinese
>>answer in these webnovels seems to be:
>>1. The ability to manage stress can and must be trained.
>>2. If you can't manage the stress, you're not the main character or a
>> MC friend. The fatality rate for non-MCs is very high!
>
>Point 1 is not unreasonable. To not learn to manage stress is to not
>learn a very useful life skill.
>
>But there is the saying
>
>If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
>
>which implies that an alternative exists to remaining under stress.
>This would probably be in contrast with the attitude in your point 2.
>
>As to the topic:
>I don't like sports, but, really, how can team sports not be
>competitive, at least when more than one school is putting up a team?
>
>Even Chess is competitive, when found in tournement form.
>

What do you mean EVEN - it is common in chess for a 4-5 hour game to
be determined on the basis of an error made by one player within
seconds - as opposed to baseball or basketball where you can always
make back the score the other team has made in the later part of the
game.

In chess it is common for defeat to come almost entirely due to errors
made 2-3 hours previous.

>OTOH, when my workgroup ("team") won second place in a
>decorate-the-workplace contest, I was not thrilled at their idea of
>marching around loudly proclaiming "We're No. 2". This is something to
>be proud of?

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>
>In chess it is common for defeat to come almost entirely due to errors
>made 2-3 hours previous.
>

It's a dangerous game, too. Those marble boards can hurt your head badly.
I had a friend who had to have a pawn surgically removed from his ear.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 11:05:23 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 08:50:54 -0800, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 23 Nov 2023 04:09:54 GMT, Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2023-11-23, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 11/22/2023 7:01 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>><snippo>
>>>>> Chinese fantasy webnovels, in general, agree with E.E.Smith's belief
>>>>> that stress is essential to growth.
>>>>
>>>> From personal experience stress is NOT essential to growth. Enough
>>>> stress will actually retard growth in the real world and cause real harm
>>>> both mentally and physically.
>>>
>>>I would agree that enough stress will do that in real life. The Chinese
>>>answer in these webnovels seems to be:
>>>1. The ability to manage stress can and must be trained.
>>>2. If you can't manage the stress, you're not the main character or a
>>> MC friend. The fatality rate for non-MCs is very high!
>>
>>Point 1 is not unreasonable. To not learn to manage stress is to not
>>learn a very useful life skill.
>>
>>But there is the saying
>>
>>If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
>>
>>which implies that an alternative exists to remaining under stress.
>>This would probably be in contrast with the attitude in your point 2.
>>
>>As to the topic:
>>I don't like sports, but, really, how can team sports not be
>>competitive, at least when more than one school is putting up a team?
>>
>>Even Chess is competitive, when found in tournement form.
>>
>
>What do you mean EVEN - it is common in chess for a 4-5 hour game to
>be determined on the basis of an error made by one player within
>seconds - as opposed to baseball or basketball where you can always
>make back the score the other team has made in the later part of the
>game.
>
>In chess it is common for defeat to come almost entirely due to errors
>made 2-3 hours previous.

I suppose I should clarify: when I played chess, I played it with
friends for enjoyment, not with rivals for prizes.

So I think of chess, as such, as not competitive. Although you are
correct, in more organized contexts it certainly is.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"