The books "Prince of Sparta" and "Go tell the Spartans", by Pournelle and Stirling, are the story of a counter-insurgency war against an opponent who is consciously following the doctrine of twentieth century Maoist revolutionary warfare. It reads perfectly well as adventure MilSF, but the added attraction to me is the speculation on how such wars should be prosecuted. So instead of reviewing the plot, here is my scorecard against current conflicts.

- This is the future history of the CoDominium of the US and the Soviet Union (the CoDominium is breaking up as the background to the stories). There has been no fall of the Soviet Union.

+ This is largely an infantry conflict, with a small number of tanks. Even helicopters are only of limited use, perhaps because of the existence of very effective anti-aircraft missiles. Drones are in limited use for surveillance (- are not used as anti-armour weapons).

+ The insurgents are sustained by consierable outside help

+ The good guys realise that reports of their conduct will be amplified and distorted by the media, leading to political consequences which could affect the war (they do also want to stay the good guys).

? Charismatic and energetic leadership is an important factor on both sides.. If you can remove or drive out the opposing leadership, you can gain a decisive victory.

- The good guys have access to voice stress and biometric analysers capable not only of detecting lies and treason, but often of deducing information from involuntary reactions to questions which the subject does not choose to answer.

- Intelligence is sophisticated, but a cottage industry. We do not see industrial scale intelligence gathering feeding kill chains (the most high tech computer and communications systems of the good guys are severely compromised by cyber attacks).

? The society being attacked is split by real cultural differences, in this case betwen hard working voluntary colonists who are the authors of their own destiny, and involuntary transportees who have grown up the recipients of a welfare culture which has given them no incentive to be anything other than passive consumers of entertainment and drugs.

On 2023-11-19, Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

> The books "Prince of Sparta" and "Go tell the Spartans", by Pournelle and Stirling, are the story of a counter-insurgency war against an opponent who is consciously following the doctrine of twentieth century Maoist revolutionary warfare.

Hey, I've read those. And remember... absolutely nothing.

> + This is largely an infantry conflict, with a small number of tanks. Even helicopters are only of limited use, perhaps because of the existence of very effective anti-aircraft missiles.

That is standard Pournelle. Whether he actually thought this a
plausible development, or simply used it as a sleight of hand so
he could re-use historical infantry battles, I don't know.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 7:30:11 PM UTC, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2023-11-19, Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>
> > The books "Prince of Sparta" and "Go tell the Spartans", by Pournelle and Stirling, are the story of a counter-insurgency war against an opponent who is consciously following the doctrine of twentieth century Maoist revolutionary warfare.
> Hey, I've read those. And remember... absolutely nothing.
> > + This is largely an infantry conflict, with a small number of tanks. Even helicopters are only of limited use, perhaps because of the existence of very effective anti-aircraft missiles.
> That is standard Pournelle. Whether he actually thought this a
> plausible development, or simply used it as a sleight of hand so
> he could re-use historical infantry battles, I don't know.
>
> --
> Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
A suspicious number of these characteristics make for a better story, but they still count when assessing the story for relevance. I reread four related books after a long break (the other two being Prince of Mercenaries and Falkenberg's Legion) and found my memory pretty hazy. For example, the aspect I really wanted to review - the semi-textbook counter-insurgency stuff - was in only two of the four books I had originally chosen to reread, although I don't regret reading the other two as well.

In article <slrnulknda.l73.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>On 2023-11-19, Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>
>> The books "Prince of Sparta" and "Go tell the Spartans", by Pournelle
>and Stirling, are the story of a counter-insurgency war against an
>opponent who is consciously following the doctrine of twentieth century
>Maoist revolutionary warfare.
>
>Hey, I've read those. And remember... absolutely nothing.
>
>> + This is largely an infantry conflict, with a small number of
>tanks. Even helicopters are only of limited use, perhaps because of the
>existence of very effective anti-aircraft missiles.
>
>That is standard Pournelle. Whether he actually thought this a
>plausible development, or simply used it as a sleight of hand so
>he could re-use historical infantry battles, I don't know.

It also facilitates having the protagonists shoot welfare
recipients, probably a plus from JEP's POV.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 11/19/2023 11:10 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2023-11-19, Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>
>> The books "Prince of Sparta" and "Go tell the Spartans", by Pournelle and Stirling, are the story of a counter-insurgency war against an opponent who is consciously following the doctrine of twentieth century Maoist revolutionary warfare.
>
> Hey, I've read those. And remember... absolutely nothing.
>
>> + This is largely an infantry conflict, with a small number of tanks. Even helicopters are only of limited use, perhaps because of the existence of very effective anti-aircraft missiles.
>
> That is standard Pournelle. Whether he actually thought this a
> plausible development, or simply used it as a sleight of hand so
> he could re-use historical infantry battles, I don't know.
>
Some of it does fit in with what we are seeing in Ukraine currently.
And some of it doesn't, like the use of drones.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <ujdop6$6h4$1@reader2.panix.com>,
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> In article <slrnulknda.l73.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> >On 2023-11-19, Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The books "Prince of Sparta" and "Go tell the Spartans", by Pournelle
> >and Stirling, are the story of a counter-insurgency war against an
> >opponent who is consciously following the doctrine of twentieth century
> >Maoist revolutionary warfare.
> >
> >Hey, I've read those. And remember... absolutely nothing.
> >
> >> + This is largely an infantry conflict, with a small number of
> >tanks. Even helicopters are only of limited use, perhaps because of the
> >existence of very effective anti-aircraft missiles.
> >
> >That is standard Pournelle. Whether he actually thought this a
> >plausible development, or simply used it as a sleight of hand so
> >he could re-use historical infantry battles, I don't know.
>
> It also facilitates having the protagonists shoot welfare
> recipients, probably a plus from JEP's POV.

I thought that they were ex-welfare recipients who did not react well
when told that they now had to work for a living.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 5:00:29 PM UTC-5, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 11/19/2023 11:10 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> > On 2023-11-19, Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The books "Prince of Sparta" and "Go tell the Spartans", by Pournelle and Stirling, are the story of a counter-insurgency war against an opponent who is consciously following the doctrine of twentieth century Maoist revolutionary warfare.
> >
> > Hey, I've read those. And remember... absolutely nothing.
> >
> >> + This is largely an infantry conflict, with a small number of tanks. Even helicopters are only of limited use, perhaps because of the existence of very effective anti-aircraft missiles.
> >
> > That is standard Pournelle. Whether he actually thought this a
> > plausible development, or simply used it as a sleight of hand so
> > he could re-use historical infantry battles, I don't know.
> >
> Some of it does fit in with what we are seeing in Ukraine currently.
> And some of it doesn't, like the use of drones.

Massive numbers of cheap drones for warfare are definitely a New
Thing that SF didn't really predict until they were nearly upon us. I'm
particularly impressed with the FPV drones, where an RPG or other
munition is attacked to a drone and flown into a target.

The skies over Ukraine are *very* hostile to aircraft due to the proliferation
of MANPADS and other antiaircraft system. The Russians are mostly using
them as standoff launch platforms, firing missiles from as far as the
Caspian Sea. CAS missions are very hazardous, and helicopters have taken
to lobbying volleys of missiles from several miles away.

pt

On 11/19/2023 9:55 PM, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <ujdop6$6h4$1@reader2.panix.com>,
> jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> In article <slrnulknda.l73.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-19, Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The books "Prince of Sparta" and "Go tell the Spartans", by Pournelle
>>> and Stirling, are the story of a counter-insurgency war against an
>>> opponent who is consciously following the doctrine of twentieth century
>>> Maoist revolutionary warfare.
>>>
>>> Hey, I've read those. And remember... absolutely nothing.
>>>
>>>> + This is largely an infantry conflict, with a small number of
>>> tanks. Even helicopters are only of limited use, perhaps because of the
>>> existence of very effective anti-aircraft missiles.
>>>
>>> That is standard Pournelle. Whether he actually thought this a
>>> plausible development, or simply used it as a sleight of hand so
>>> he could re-use historical infantry battles, I don't know.
>>
>> It also facilitates having the protagonists shoot welfare
>> recipients, probably a plus from JEP's POV.
>
> I thought that they were ex-welfare recipients who did not react well
> when told that they now had to work for a living.
>
Hence giving Pournelle an excuse to shoot them.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <b6e1054a-3bc3-48e8-b9cb-123345cbe1f9n@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 5:00:29 PM UTC-5, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 11/19/2023 11:10 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> > On 2023-11-19, Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> The books "Prince of Sparta" and "Go tell the Spartans", by
>Pournelle and Stirling, are the story of a counter-insurgency war
>against an opponent who is consciously following the doctrine of
>twentieth century Maoist revolutionary warfare.
>> >
>> > Hey, I've read those. And remember... absolutely nothing.
>> >
>> >> + This is largely an infantry conflict, with a small number of
>tanks. Even helicopters are only of limited use, perhaps because of the
>existence of very effective anti-aircraft missiles.
>> >
>> > That is standard Pournelle. Whether he actually thought this a
>> > plausible development, or simply used it as a sleight of hand so
>> > he could re-use historical infantry battles, I don't know.
>> >
>> Some of it does fit in with what we are seeing in Ukraine currently.
>> And some of it doesn't, like the use of drones.
>
>Massive numbers of cheap drones for warfare are definitely a New
>Thing that SF didn't really predict until they were nearly upon us.

Drone turn up in Drake's Forlorn Hope. I was a bit surprised to
encounter them. A drone of sorts puts in an appearance in
Kingsbury's The Moon Goddess and the Son.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 5:55:37 AM UTC, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <ujdop6$6h4$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
> > In article <slrnulknda...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> > Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> > >On 2023-11-19, Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> The books "Prince of Sparta" and "Go tell the Spartans", by Pournelle
> > >and Stirling, are the story of a counter-insurgency war against an
> > >opponent who is consciously following the doctrine of twentieth century
> > >Maoist revolutionary warfare.
> > >
> > >Hey, I've read those. And remember... absolutely nothing.
> > >
> > >> + This is largely an infantry conflict, with a small number of
> > >tanks. Even helicopters are only of limited use, perhaps because of the
> > >existence of very effective anti-aircraft missiles.
> > >
> > >That is standard Pournelle. Whether he actually thought this a
> > >plausible development, or simply used it as a sleight of hand so
> > >he could re-use historical infantry battles, I don't know.
> >
> > It also facilitates having the protagonists shoot welfare
> > recipients, probably a plus from JEP's POV.
> I thought that they were ex-welfare recipients who did not react well
> when told that they now had to work for a living.
>
> --
> "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> ã-----------------------------------------------------
> Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
The motivation of the various revolutionaries is sometimes described and sometimes left open to speculation. Those that could be loosely described as welfare recipients were AFAIK strictly speaking ex-welfare recipients, as they came from the so-called Welfare Islands of Earth, and were probably not receiving Welfare on Sparta. Pournelles has a character say that the planet is so rich and so underpopulated as yet that you could simply walk out to unclaimed land and sustain yourself by rabbit hunting. But an involuntary transportee from a life of urban welfare dependency may not be best suited to this, and there are details of living on Sparta that take time to learn, such as being more careful in the high gravity. My impression is that there are semi-skilled jobs widely available. Certainly nobody starves, so there might be some sort of social safety net, possibly unattractive to its recipients.

The head of the paramilitary wing of the revolutionaries is an involuntary transportee (ex-Welfare) but the head of the political wing is from the Spartan inherited elite. The motivation of both is that they expect to be the sole ruler of Sparta after the revolution.

Many of those in the middle and lower ranks of the revolutionaries come from well to do Spartan families and have had expensive (but not vocational) educations. They hope for jobs managing the country after the revolution. Under the current administration, there is a policy of minimal state intervention, with out-sourcing to private companies where possible, so jobs in the government for people whose main ambition is to tell others what to do are not common.

One of the characters speculates that the male involuntary transportees who join the revolution do so not in for lack of food or living expenses, but in search of social status, which they hope will allow them to get girlfriends.

On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 5:52:56 PM UTC, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 5:55:37 AM UTC, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > In article <ujdop6$6h4$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> > jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <slrnulknda...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> > > Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> > > >On 2023-11-19, Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> The books "Prince of Sparta" and "Go tell the Spartans", by Pournelle
> > > >and Stirling, are the story of a counter-insurgency war against an
> > > >opponent who is consciously following the doctrine of twentieth century
> > > >Maoist revolutionary warfare.
> > > >
> > > >Hey, I've read those. And remember... absolutely nothing.
> > > >
> > > >> + This is largely an infantry conflict, with a small number of
> > > >tanks. Even helicopters are only of limited use, perhaps because of the
> > > >existence of very effective anti-aircraft missiles.
> > > >
> > > >That is standard Pournelle. Whether he actually thought this a
> > > >plausible development, or simply used it as a sleight of hand so
> > > >he could re-use historical infantry battles, I don't know.
> > >
> > > It also facilitates having the protagonists shoot welfare
> > > recipients, probably a plus from JEP's POV.
> > I thought that they were ex-welfare recipients who did not react well
> > when told that they now had to work for a living.
> >
> > --
> > "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> > Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> > ã-----------------------------------------------------
> > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
> The motivation of the various revolutionaries is sometimes described and sometimes left open to speculation. Those that could be loosely described as welfare recipients were AFAIK strictly speaking ex-welfare recipients, as they came from the so-called Welfare Islands of Earth, and were probably not receiving Welfare on Sparta. Pournelles has a character say that the planet is so rich and so underpopulated as yet that you could simply walk out to unclaimed land and sustain yourself by rabbit hunting. But an involuntary transportee from a life of urban welfare dependency may not be best suited to this, and there are details of living on Sparta that take time to learn, such as being more careful in the high gravity. My impression is that there are semi-skilled jobs widely available. Certainly nobody starves, so there might be some sort of social safety net, possibly unattractive to its recipients.
>
> The head of the paramilitary wing of the revolutionaries is an involuntary transportee (ex-Welfare) but the head of the political wing is from the Spartan inherited elite. The motivation of both is that they expect to be the sole ruler of Sparta after the revolution.
>
> Many of those in the middle and lower ranks of the revolutionaries come from well to do Spartan families and have had expensive (but not vocational) educations. They hope for jobs managing the country after the revolution. Under the current administration, there is a policy of minimal state intervention, with out-sourcing to private companies where possible, so jobs in the government for people whose main ambition is to tell others what to do are not common.
>
> One of the characters speculates that the male involuntary transportees who join the revolution do so not in for lack of food or living expenses, but in search of social status, which they hope will allow them to get girlfriends.
Going back to "Go Tell The Spartans" I can reconcile two apparently contradictory statements if there is a minimal sparingly dispensed welfare system. In Chapter Four we hear that the political wing of the revolution campaigns for imported luxuries and _more_ welfare. In Chapter Ten an enlisted man in Falkenberg's legion says it's "work for a living or starve". I got the speculation (by a different speaker) wrong - they do not say that violence is an attempt to gain status; they say it is just a way of working off the anger caused by lack of women.