A decade ago I set up a machine with MSDOS in the root sector, WinXP then
Quantian (knoppix/debian). I actually moved XP over by 650MB despite warnings
an it works still, a decade late. (But I am unable to access that machine for
a few months)

I want to replicate it on an old Dell Vostro laptop but there is a 24MB/100MB
NTFS "System" partition at zero sector.

Can I still set up an MSDOS partition? Would it be preferable to use WinXP
because this is a Win7 feature?

--
Vasos Panagiotopoulos panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---

On 1/15/23 2:37 PM, vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
> A decade ago I set up a machine with MSDOS in the root sector, WinXP then
> Quantian (knoppix/debian). I actually moved XP over by 650MB despite warnings
> an it works still, a decade late. (But I am unable to access that machine for
> a few months)
>
> I want to replicate it on an old Dell Vostro laptop but there is a 24MB/100MB
> NTFS "System" partition at zero sector.
>
> Can I still set up an MSDOS partition? Would it be preferable to use WinXP
> because this is a Win7 feature?

Your question is badly stated - non-English speaker ?

I *think* you're referring to the common "UEFI"/GPT
disk layout. UEFI is kinda "BIOS-On-Disk" ... a
theoretical way to shift boot info out of EEPROM
and onto the disk itself. They SAY it's more better,
more secure, more extensible ... but, really, very
little of use seems to BE in the UEFI partition
(which is always FAT-32 and the first allocated
disk partition). Frankly it just doesn't take all
that much info to boot yer PC - but then this was
a MicroSoft idea ......

You can replicate any disk using -IX "dd" ... but
be careful, 'dd' is sometimes called 'Disk Destroyer',
gotta be SURE of your parameters :-) 'dd' is also
very SLOW.

IF you're using Winders, consider commercial utilities
like the variants of Acronis (tends to come with brand-
name disks, gotta HAVE one of those brand-names in yer
system for it to work) or Macrium Reflect Free ... will
clone any disk. EaseUS or Amoei or Uranium can do about
the same things. Acronis and Macrium are 'smart' and
can adapt to different-sized disks whereas 'dd' is best
where source/dest are exactly the same size.

AFTER you have cloned yer disk THEN you can use utilities
like gparted to adjust sizes/orders and such ... preferably
first using something like an external USB hard-disk
box/fixture. I've been thru this sort of shit many times
before - you CAN usually beat it with a stick and get it
all to work.

On 1/16/23 1:11 AM, 26C.Z968 wrote:
> On 1/15/23 2:37 PM, vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
>> A decade ago I set up a machine with MSDOS in the root sector, WinXP then
>> Quantian (knoppix/debian). I actually moved XP over by 650MB despite
>> warnings
>> an it works still, a decade late. (But I am unable to access that
>> machine for
>> a few months)
>>
>> I want to replicate it on an old Dell Vostro laptop but there is a
>> 24MB/100MB
>> NTFS "System" partition at zero sector.
>>
>> Can I still set up an MSDOS partition? Would it be preferable to use
>> WinXP
>> because this is a Win7 feature?
>
>   Your question is badly stated - non-English speaker ?
>
>   I *think* you're referring to the common "UEFI"/GPT
>   disk layout. UEFI is kinda "BIOS-On-Disk" ... a
>   theoretical way to shift boot info out of EEPROM
>   and onto the disk itself. They SAY it's more better,
>   more secure, more extensible ... but, really, very
>   little of use seems to BE in the UEFI partition
>   (which is always FAT-32 and the first allocated
>   disk partition). Frankly it just doesn't take all
>   that much info to boot yer PC - but then this was
>   a MicroSoft idea ......
>
>   You can replicate any disk using -IX "dd" ... but
>   be careful, 'dd' is sometimes called 'Disk Destroyer',
>   gotta be SURE of your parameters  :-) 'dd' is also
>   very SLOW.
>
>   IF you're using Winders, consider commercial utilities
>   like the variants of Acronis (tends to come with brand-
>   name disks, gotta HAVE one of those brand-names in yer
>   system for it to work) or Macrium Reflect Free ... will
>   clone any disk. EaseUS or Amoei or Uranium can do about
>   the same things. Acronis and Macrium are 'smart' and
>   can adapt to different-sized disks whereas 'dd' is best
>   where source/dest are exactly the same size.
>
>   AFTER you have cloned yer disk THEN you can use utilities
>   like gparted to adjust sizes/orders and such ... preferably
>   first using something like an external USB hard-disk
>   box/fixture. I've been thru this sort of shit many times
>   before - you CAN usually beat it with a stick and get it
>   all to work.

Oh, followup ....

Modern disks have TWO EXTRA SECTORS beyond the theoretical
last sectors. One contains disk info - brand name/type/
real-size and such. The other is harder to decode, often
seems to just have gobbledegoop. 'dd' may or may NOT pick
up on those.

Am 16.01.2023 um 01:25:12 Uhr schrieb 26C.Z968:

> Modern disks have TWO EXTRA SECTORS beyond the theoretical
> last sectors. One contains disk info - brand name/type/
> real-size and such. The other is harder to decode, often
> seems to just have gobbledegoop. 'dd' may or may NOT pick
> up on those.

Where is all that specified?
Or is it just arbitrariness of the manufacturers?

On 1/16/23 2:31 AM, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 16.01.2023 um 01:25:12 Uhr schrieb 26C.Z968:
>
>> Modern disks have TWO EXTRA SECTORS beyond the theoretical
>> last sectors. One contains disk info - brand name/type/
>> real-size and such. The other is harder to decode, often
>> seems to just have gobbledegoop. 'dd' may or may NOT pick
>> up on those.
>
> Where is all that specified?

> Or is it just arbitrariness of the manufacturers?

Hang on ... I *have* looked at those sectors before, which
is why I remember what was in them. There IS a linux utility,
hdparm, that'll let you peek - but it's been a few years.
These are not partitions, they seem to be a few data sectors
not part of any partitioning scheme.

They are KNOWN as the "HPA" (Host Protected Area) and "DCO"
(Drive Configuration Overlay) sectors and, theoretically, the
spooky people could maybe fit a little spy program in them.

If "sudo hdparm --dco-identify /dev/sda" returns anything
then you have the DCO sector.

The DCO can be removed and, theoretically, restored.

To see if you HAVE an HPA "sudo hdparm -N /dev/sda" can
be used - but NOTE THAT COMMAND COMES WITH WARNINGS. It's
a case of where just looking can do bad things.

One SSD I checked has DCO, dunno about any and all.

Peruse :

https://niiconsulting.com/checkmate/2006/09/hiding-data-with-hpahost-protected-area-in-linux/

And some 'forensic' (usually commercial) suites can unhide
and read the HPA.

On 1/16/23 7:28 PM, 26C.Z968 wrote:
> On 1/16/23 2:31 AM, Marco Moock wrote:
>> Am 16.01.2023 um 01:25:12 Uhr schrieb 26C.Z968:
>>
>>>     Modern disks have TWO EXTRA SECTORS beyond the theoretical
>>>     last sectors. One contains disk info - brand name/type/
>>>     real-size and such. The other is harder to decode, often
>>>     seems to just have gobbledegoop. 'dd' may or may NOT pick
>>>     up on those.
>>
>> Where is all that specified?
>
>> Or is it just arbitrariness of the manufacturers?
>
>   Hang on ... I *have* looked at those sectors before, which
>   is why I remember what was in them. There IS a linux utility,
>   hdparm, that'll let you peek - but it's been a few years.
>   These are not partitions, they seem to be a few data sectors
>   not part of any partitioning scheme.
>
>   They are KNOWN as the "HPA" (Host Protected Area) and "DCO"
>   (Drive Configuration Overlay) sectors and, theoretically, the
>   spooky people could maybe fit a little spy program in them.
>
>   If "sudo hdparm --dco-identify /dev/sda" returns anything
>   then you have the DCO sector.
>
>   The DCO can be removed and, theoretically, restored.
>
>   To see if you HAVE an HPA "sudo hdparm -N /dev/sda" can
>   be used - but NOTE THAT COMMAND COMES WITH WARNINGS. It's
>   a case of where just looking can do bad things.
>
>   One SSD I checked has DCO, dunno about any and all.
>
>   Peruse :
>
>
> https://niiconsulting.com/checkmate/2006/09/hiding-data-with-hpahost-protected-area-in-linux/
>
>
>   And some 'forensic' (usually commercial) suites can unhide
>   and read the HPA.

Oh, check :

http://killdisk.com/manual/HPA-DCO.html

for even more info. Apparently there exists
some "HPA-Aware" software and some orgs stash
info in there - theft/use related info for
example.

Thanks to all. SO.. where do I put the plain, vanilla MSDOS partition?

--
Vasos Panagiotopoulos panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---

Let me rephrase, Does MSDOS partition go before, in or after MBR?

--
Vasos Panagiotopoulos panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---

SOmething about MSDOS needs to be in the zero sector partition

Here is my 2014 grub.cfg

# menu.lst - See: grub(8), info grub, update-grub(8)
## default num
# Set the default entry to the entry number NUM. Numbering starts from 0, and
# the entry number 0 is the default if the command is not used.
default 1
timeout 177
color cyan/blue white/blue
#Quantian bootable partition config begins
title Quantian on (/dev/sda6)
root (hd0,5)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz root=/dev/sda6 ro ramdisk_size=100000 init=/etc/init lang=us apm=power-off nomce quiet vga=791
initrd /boot/initrd.img
savedefault
boot
# QUANTIAN bootable partition config ends
# XP bootable partition config begins
title XP on (/dev/sda1)
unhide (hd0,0)
hide (hd0,1)
root (hd0,0)
makeactive
chainloader +1
# Win XP bootable partition config ends
# DOS is in front of XP but was installed later so has a higher SDA number
# DOS bootable partition config begins
title DOS on (/dev/sda2)
hide (hd0,0)
unhide (hd0,1)
root (hd0,1)
makeactive
chainloader +1
# DOS bootable partition config ends

--
Vasos Panagiotopoulos panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---

This is what I'm trying to remember (And.. Did I have MBR in 2014?)

Parted User's Manual - MS DOS MS Windows 9x MS Windows ME
https://www.gnu.org/software/parted/manual/html_node/parted_46.html

DOS and Windows require you to re-install the boot loader if you change the FAT type (FAT16 or FAT32) of the boot partition. Parted will warn you before attempting to do this. To re-install the
boot loader, you can either create a boot disk, or use the boot CDROM. The boot disk method does not work with Windows ME.
....
* The boot partition should be selected with the "boot" flag. Only one boot partition can be selected (sometimes called the "active" partition). For example, to set partition 3 to be the boot
partition, do:
(parted) set 3 boot on

* The MS DOS and MS Windows 9x/ME can only boot from the first FAT partition. That is, the FAT partition with the smallest minor number, that isn't hidden. Note that boot loaders like GRUB and
LILO (and some BIOSes) can change this behaviour...
* If you are using CHS addressing (rather than LBA addressing), then the boot partition start must be less than cylinder 1024. You can tell MS DOS to use (or not to use) LBA addressing, by
enabling or disabling the LBA flag on the boot partition. For example, to enable the LBA flag on partition 2, do:
(parted) set 2 lba on

Note: LBA addressing is not supported in MS-DOS 6.22 and lower, as well as all versions of PC-DOS. Warning: some BIOSes won't enable LBA addressing, unless you enable it in the BIOS as well. If
for some reason, Windows doesn't boot after changing this flag, this is probably the problem.
* the "real" MS-DOS (i.e. up to version 6.22) and MS-DOS 7.0 (i.e. Windows 95/95a) don't know about FAT32. It's therefore possible to boot them from the second fat (FAT16 only, of course)
partition, when the first fat partition is FAT32. Both have to be primary partitions, so you'll have to set the one you want to boot from as active partition.

--
Vasos Panagiotopoulos panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---

On 2023-01-17 18:09, vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
> Let me rephrase, Does MSDOS partition go before, in or after MBR?

There is nothing before the MBR, and there is only one MBR on a disk. It
is, by definition, absolute sector zero on the raw disk.

You can put in the MBR either of two things:

- a partition table.

- a non partition "disk" or filesystem directly, using the entire
disk; I have never seen this on hard disks, only on USB sticks. And it
is rare. Warning: some software can be confused by this, handle the disk
improperly and destroy it.

If you define partitions (4 at most, because if you are using an MBR you
are not using GPT), then each of them has a BR (not MBR), which lies at
sector zero of the partition, not of the raw disk.

Of course, any of those partitions (or full disk) can be set as an MsDOS
filesystem.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 1/17/23 2:37 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-01-17 18:09, vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
>> Let me rephrase, Does MSDOS partition go before, in or after MBR?
>
> There is nothing before the MBR, and there is only one MBR on a disk. It
> is, by definition, absolute sector zero on the raw disk.

Correct. MBR first and foremost - everything else afterwards.
UEFI systems want a smallish FAT-32 partition as the very
first 'official' one.

> You can put in the MBR either of two things:
>
>   - a partition table.
>
>   - a non partition "disk" or filesystem directly, using the entire
> disk; I have never seen this on hard disks, only on USB sticks. And it
> is rare. Warning: some software can be confused by this, handle the disk
> improperly and destroy it.

It's true ... and I did something like that a LONG time
ago kinda just for fun. However YOU have to handle what
goes where on the disk as there's no partition table to
provide guidance or organization - the "Fred's File System"
so to speak. Set everything to zero with 'dd' and then go
from there.

> If you define partitions (4 at most, because if you are using an MBR you
> are not using GPT), then each of them has a BR (not MBR), which lies at
> sector zero of the partition, not of the raw disk.

Yep. There are also "extended"/logical partitions even with
the MBR scheme that can hold a bunch of subpartitions within
them. They work quite well - but GPT is "easier".

People these days rarely even THINK about the lower-level
particulars of their storage devices. It's all just "taken
care of". Back in the bad old days you'd buy a whopping
10 or 20 megabyte PC hard disk and it'd come with a little
paper listing bad sectors. You had to use 'debug' to access
the disk controller directly and tediously enter the data
to lock out those physical sectors. THEN you could low-level
format and THEN high-level format - and then it was lunchtime :-)

On 1/17/23 12:10 PM, vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
> SOmething about MSDOS needs to be in the zero sector partition

Sector zero is the MBR. Things get a bit more complicated if
you're using GPT partitioning. Typically the next thing is a
fat-32 partition for UEFI these days (assuming you want a
bootable disk). Sector zero is rather small - which is why
there are such tight specs on how many partitions you can
have if not using GPT.

There IS plenty of material online about disks - SOME of
it is comprehensible. :-)

Try :

https://recoverit.wondershare.com/partition-tips/what-is-mbr.html

for starters.

> Here is my 2014 grub.cfg
>
> # menu.lst - See: grub(8), info grub, update-grub(8)
> ## default num
> # Set the default entry to the entry number NUM. Numbering starts from 0, and
> # the entry number 0 is the default if the command is not used.
> default 1
> timeout 177
> color cyan/blue white/blue
> #Quantian bootable partition config begins
> title Quantian on (/dev/sda6)
> root (hd0,5)
> kernel /boot/vmlinuz root=/dev/sda6 ro ramdisk_size=100000 init=/etc/init lang=us apm=power-off nomce quiet vga=791
> initrd /boot/initrd.img
> savedefault
> boot
> # QUANTIAN bootable partition config ends
> # XP bootable partition config begins
> title XP on (/dev/sda1)
> unhide (hd0,0)
> hide (hd0,1)
> root (hd0,0)
> makeactive
> chainloader +1
> # Win XP bootable partition config ends
> # DOS is in front of XP but was installed later so has a higher SDA number
> # DOS bootable partition config begins
> title DOS on (/dev/sda2)
> hide (hd0,0)
> unhide (hd0,1)
> root (hd0,1)
> makeactive
> chainloader +1
> # DOS bootable partition config ends
>
>

On 2023-01-18 06:04, 26C.Z968 wrote:
> On 1/17/23 2:37 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-01-17 18:09, vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
>>> Let me rephrase, Does MSDOS partition go before, in or after MBR?
>>
>> There is nothing before the MBR, and there is only one MBR on a disk.
>> It is, by definition, absolute sector zero on the raw disk.
>
>   Correct. MBR first and foremost - everything else afterwards.
>   UEFI systems want a smallish FAT-32 partition as the very
>   first 'official' one.
>
>
>> You can put in the MBR either of two things:
>>
>>    - a partition table.
>>
>>    - a non partition "disk" or filesystem directly, using the entire
>> disk; I have never seen this on hard disks, only on USB sticks. And it
>> is rare. Warning: some software can be confused by this, handle the
>> disk improperly and destroy it.
>
>   It's true ... and I did something like that a LONG time
>   ago kinda just for fun. However YOU have to handle what
>   goes where on the disk as there's no partition table to
>   provide guidance or organization - the "Fred's File System"
>   so to speak. Set everything to zero with 'dd' and then go
>   from there.
>
>> If you define partitions (4 at most, because if you are using an MBR
>> you are not using GPT), then each of them has a BR (not MBR), which
>> lies at sector zero of the partition, not of the raw disk.
>
>   Yep. There are also "extended"/logical partitions even with
>   the MBR scheme that can hold a bunch of subpartitions within
>   them. They work quite well - but GPT is "easier".
>
>   People these days rarely even THINK about the lower-level
>   particulars of their storage devices. It's all just "taken
>   care of". Back in the bad old days you'd buy a whopping
>   10 or 20 megabyte PC hard disk and it'd come with a little
>   paper listing bad sectors. You had to use 'debug' to access
>   the disk controller directly and tediously enter the data
>   to lock out those physical sectors. THEN you could low-level
>   format and THEN high-level format - and then it was lunchtime  :-)

And adjust the interleave.

I tested with several interleave number my hard disk, from 1 to 13 or
something; I think the recommended was 3, but in my case the speed
doubled when selecting 10 or so. I no longer remember the actual numbers.

For the younger: ;-)

The computer reads a chunk of data (not saying sector because I don't
remember if it was a sector). If we placed the next chunk contiguously,
the computer was not ready to read it and the disk had to go a full
rotation first. So we placed the chunks "delayed" or interleaved:

1xxxx2xxxx3xxxx4.

15xxx26xxx37xxx4...

--
Cheers, Carlos.