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computers / alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt / Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

SubjectAuthor
* Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0David Samuel Barr
+* Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Bill
|`- Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0David Samuel Barr
+* Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Paul
|+* Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Bill
||`* Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Paul
|| `* Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Bill
||  +* Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0marty
||  |`* Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Bill
||  | `* Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Paul
||  |  `- Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Bill
||  `- Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Paul
|`* Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0David Samuel Barr
| +- Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Bill
| `- Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Bob F
+- Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Mr. Man-wai Chang
+- Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Paul
`- Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0Paul

1
Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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From: dsb...@mindspring.com (David Samuel Barr)
Subject: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 21:27:52 -0400
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 by: David Samuel Barr - Thu, 20 Oct 2022 01:27 UTC

Hard to believe, but this is a followup to posts
I made here about this time 16 years ago, when
the folks here (especially the venerable Paul)
helped me spec out the PC I wanted to build at
that time (while I've been building since 1985
it's usually several years between full builds
[as opposed to incremental changes] and I'm not
always as current on developments as more regular
builders are). That system is still running
(I'm typing this on it) and so far I've only
needed to replace the hard drive (after ten
years) and the power supply (after fifteen).
However, while I've been determinedly running on
Windows XP this whole time (as we all know Windows
has gone downhill ever since) I'm starting to run
into too many situations where, for example, some
websites won't run on the last version of Firefox
that works in XP (sometimes because they think
it's IE and tell me as much), while some programs
or updates thereof now won't run on anything
lower than Windows 7, 8 or even 10, and if I were
to decide to finally bite the bullet and update
to 11 my current hardware likely wouldn't meet
all of its installation requirements.

So it seems I'm finally looking at having to do
a new build in the near future. I've done some
research and tried to spec out what I think
probably would work best but once again I want
to throw it out to the gang here for evaluation,
especially since last time when I did so the
valuable comments led me to my current v2.0 build
which is worlds away from and much better than
the initial v1.0 spec I presented. I'm hoping
to retain my existing hardware where possible,
although I suspect most of those components
won't fit or run on a modern MB or have just
become obsolete, so I've mapped this out to show
[what I have now] and what I think >>> I'd have
to replace it with or what I think I could keep,
and why.

First, though, a recap of what I expect to use
the new build for (which hasn't really changed
much since I first typed this in 2006):

1) Word processing (WordPerfect and Word 2003)
2) Multiple large complex spreadsheets (QuattroPro
and Excel 2003)
3) Filling in and printing PDF forms (Adobe Reader)
4) Internet use
a) e-mail and Usenet (Thunderbird)
b) Web research & browsing (Firefox)
c) Modifying PDF documents (ILovePDF)
d) Occasional file transfers
5) a) Creating & editing MIDI files and printed
scores (Finale or Sibelius), sometimes
with input from an outboard digital piano;
b) Transferring vinyl records to CD-R(W) or
MP3; maybe some editing thereof
c) Capturing various audio/video sources and
editing sound bites
6) a) Some DVR use with some possible edits/
transfers to DVD
b) Some VHS-to-DVD conversion and some editing
thereof
c) Some editing of clips from DVR/DVD sources
NO GAMING (except FreeCell), NO OVERCLOCKING but
a LOT of multitasking of the above processes

[I still want to be able to do 5) and 6) even
though I frustratingly have never had time to
do any of it on this system after all these
years; I even specifically bought Windows XP MCE
for this purpose and yet have never even had a
chance to set up much less use MCE. Still, hope
springs eternal. I mostly use Corel WordPerfect
and QuattroPro for my own work but one of my
main jobs requires daily MS Excel and Word use
(and I'm sticking with 2003 for both, which I
prefer over the later "ribbon" versions and
which actually lets me do some things they
can't), which is why you see both suites
incongruously listed here.]

Given that, here's the hardware I've picked so far:

CPU: [Intel Core 2 Duo E6400] >>> Intel Core i5 12600
The i5 12600 seems to be the best balance of specs
and price in the 12th Gen line for my needs. I
don't need its integrated graphics processor since
I plan to have a video card, which might speak to
going for the 12600KF which doesn't have it.
However, unlike in 11th Gen, the KF isn't just
missing the GPU while inexplicably running at twice
the wattage but has completely different architecture,
so the question is whether the apparent modestly
higher benchmarks on the KF are significant enough
to justify all the impact of its higher power draw
(and its higher price).

CPU cooling: Not previously addressed in v2.0--I
just used the fan Intel supplied with the CPU--
but with the above CPUs it's become a factor.
While the 12600 comes with a fan I've read some
reviews which say that it's inadequate, and the
KF doesn't come with any cooler, so either way
I'd need to explore options here and while I have
a sense that liquid might be better than air
(though mostly seems to be used by gamers running
rigs that would set their houses on fire if left
to stock fans) I really don't have a good grip on
this and would welcome guidance.

Motherboard: [Asus P5B-E] >>> Asus Prime Z690-P WiFi
Given my P5B-E's trouble-free performance to
date I'm still something of an Asus loyalist
although I know some folks around here tend to
favour some other brands. The Z690-P seems to
be the best of Asus's LGA1700 MBs for my needs;
I've never needed WiFi where I am so far but I
figure for the few extra bucks over the other
Asus Prime Z690s without it it couldn't hurt to
get it now just in case of future need.

Memory: [Crucial 2x1Gb Kit, DDR2-533, PC2-4200]
>>> Crucial 2x16GB Kit, DDR5-4800 UDIMM CT2K16G48C40U5
For me Crucial has always been the single
no-brainer in builds. If I'm reading the specs
and guidelines for the above CPUs and MB properly
I think this is the most compatible set; anyone
know differently? (I'm also assuming 2x16Gb is
adequate; if not, I could bump up to 2x32Gb Kit
or two 2x16GB Kits.)

{Note: I originally specced this as an 11th Gen
build with Intel i5 11600KF, Asus Prime Z590-P
Wifi and Crucial DDR4-3200 memory since I was
seeing some negative writeups of 12th Gen CPUs
& sockets (e.g. buckling of the LGA1700 sockets
which compromised CPU cooling) and CPU/MB prices
but further reading suggested I still should go
ahead and jump to 12th Gen; if there's any
reason you think I'm better off with 11th Gen
than 12th Gen please so advise.}

Storage: [Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD] >>>
Samsung 980PRO nvME M.2 PCIe4.0 SSD w/Heatsink
While I'm old-skool enough to want to stick with
a WD HDD as I have since the 1980s it's obvious
that SSD is now the current standard and the
Samsung 980PRO seems to be getting the best
reviews I've found. If it fits I might also
hook up my current WD Blue 1TB HDD (five years
old; it replaced the 10-year-old WD 320Gb
WD3200KS) and use it for data storage but given
that I've never filled any more than 75Gb on it
with both programs and data (50Gb on its
predecessor) even a 250Gb SSD likely would be
far more than ever needed (though I'd probably
spring for a 500Gb one just in case) so unless
I keep the current system intact I'm more
likely to get an enclosure for that HDD and
turn it into an external backup drive.

Optical Drive: [Samsung SH-S182D DVD/CD writer]
>>> Asus BW-16D1HT Blu-Ray/DVD/CD writer
I initially assumed I'd just transfer the
existing drive over to the new build but I've
just recently started to rethink this. At the
time of my current build Blu-Ray was fairly
new and people were saying it wouldn't catch on,
especially for computers, so I didn't get a
Blu-Ray drive, just a DVD one, and I've never
acquired any Blu-Ray discs (except a few that
came as part of CD music album packages), even
as they've apparently largely been relegated to
the clearance bins at the Best Buys of the
world. However, just this year I've found that
the label which acquired the back catalogue of
certain longtime noted musician friends of mine
has been reissuing their albums with Blu-Ray
discs of remixes thereof (which also have some
video content), and those can't be played on
my TV's standalone HDD/DVD recorder any more
than the DVD-Audio discs I have can be, so I'd
need some kind of Blu-Ray reader and all the PC
internal drives I'm finding are writers though
all seem to have some kind of limitation of
what discs of any kind they can handle. The
top reviewed ones seem to be LG, Asus and (less
so) Pioneer, and the Asus has a power-saving
feature which the others don't which gives it
a bit of an edge when not in use.

Video Card: [BFG GeForce 7600GT OC]
This is a PCIe card that should run in one of
the X16 slots on the Z690-P board so apparently
no reason not to carry it over. If, as it may
turn out, this is the only piece that can be
carried over I'd more likely keep the current
system intact with it and then need to find a
suitable card for the new system (BFG went out
of business in 2010 so I can't just get another
one of these); suggestions?


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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 by: Bill - Thu, 20 Oct 2022 05:28 UTC

On 10/19/2022 9:27 PM, David Samuel Barr wrote:

> Given that, here's the hardware I've picked so far:
>
> CPU: [Intel Core 2 Duo E6400] >>> Intel Core i5 12600
> The i5 12600 seems to be the best balance of specs
> and price in the 12th Gen line for my needs.  I
> don't need its integrated graphics processor since
> I plan to have a video card, which might speak to
> going for the 12600KF which doesn't have it.
Given the small incremental price for built-in graphics,
I think it's a silly mistake not to get it. It would be very
convenient if your graphics card dies (like mine did after 7 years).
Last week I installed a defective graphics card that I purchased from
Ebay, and my built in graphics was of immeasurable value in establishing
the "defectiveness" (is that a word??? : ) ) of the "new" graphics
card. I'm using it right now. Intel HD 4600. The best $20 I ever spent.

Concerning a CPU cooler. I really like my AIO cooler. I have
a Corsair H115 (it runs quietly, to the point of turning its fans off if
not needed), and you don't even have to blow the dust out of it (which I
appreciate too!) You'll save money if you can get the one without RGB.
But last time I checked, Corsair still wasn't packaging it with the
hardware to fit the Intel 12 (and 13th) generation CPUs. They have a
workaround you can read more about, or you can look for an alternative.
But at least now you are aware of this detail.

Hope that helps. I am not a hardware expert, so I'll stop there. Good
luck with your new system!

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 05:42:41 -0400
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 by: Paul - Thu, 20 Oct 2022 09:42 UTC

On 10/19/2022 9:27 PM, David Samuel Barr wrote:
> Hard to believe, but this is a followup to posts
> I made here about this time 16 years ago, when
> the folks here (especially the venerable Paul)
> helped me spec out the PC I wanted to build at
> that time (while I've been building since 1985
> it's usually several years between full builds
> [as opposed to incremental changes] and I'm not
> always as current on developments as more regular
> builders are).  That system is still running
> (I'm typing this on it) and so far I've only
> needed to replace the hard drive (after ten
> years) and the power supply (after fifteen).
> However, while I've been determinedly running on
> Windows XP this whole time (as we all know Windows
> has gone downhill ever since) I'm starting to run
> into too many situations where, for example, some
> websites won't run on the last version of Firefox
> that works in XP (sometimes because they think
> it's IE and tell me as much), while some programs
> or updates thereof now won't run on anything
> lower than Windows 7, 8 or even 10, and if I were
> to decide to finally bite the bullet and update
> to 11 my current hardware likely wouldn't meet
> all of its installation requirements.
>
> So it seems I'm finally looking at having to do
> a new build in the near future.  I've done some
> research and tried to spec out what I think
> probably would work best but once again I want
> to throw it out to the gang here for evaluation,
> especially since last time when I did so the
> valuable comments led me to my current v2.0 build
> which is worlds away from and much better than
> the initial v1.0 spec I presented.  I'm hoping
> to retain my existing hardware where possible,
> although I suspect most of those components
> won't fit or run on a modern MB or have just
> become obsolete, so I've mapped this out to show
> [what I have now] and what I think >>> I'd have
> to replace it with or what I think I could keep,
> and why.
>
> First, though, a recap of what I expect to use
> the new build for (which hasn't really changed
> much since I first typed this in 2006):
>
> 1) Word processing (WordPerfect and Word 2003)
> 2) Multiple large complex spreadsheets (QuattroPro
>    and Excel 2003)
> 3) Filling in and printing PDF forms (Adobe Reader)
> 4) Internet use
>    a) e-mail and Usenet (Thunderbird)
>    b) Web research & browsing (Firefox)
>    c) Modifying PDF documents (ILovePDF)
>    d) Occasional file transfers
> 5) a) Creating & editing MIDI files and printed
>       scores (Finale or Sibelius), sometimes
>       with input from an outboard digital piano;
>    b) Transferring vinyl records to CD-R(W) or
>       MP3; maybe some editing thereof
>    c) Capturing various audio/video sources and
>       editing sound bites
> 6) a) Some DVR use with some possible edits/
>       transfers to DVD
>    b) Some VHS-to-DVD conversion and some editing
>       thereof
>    c) Some editing of clips from DVR/DVD sources
> NO GAMING (except FreeCell), NO OVERCLOCKING but
> a LOT of multitasking of the above processes
>
> [I still want to be able to do 5) and 6) even
> though I frustratingly have never had time to
> do any of it on this system after all these
> years; I even specifically bought Windows XP MCE
> for this purpose and yet have never even had a
> chance to set up much less use MCE.  Still, hope
> springs eternal.  I mostly use Corel WordPerfect
> and QuattroPro for my own work but one of my
> main jobs requires daily MS Excel and Word use
> (and I'm sticking with 2003 for both, which I
> prefer over the later "ribbon" versions and
> which actually lets me do some things they
> can't), which is why you see both suites
> incongruously listed here.]
>
> Given that, here's the hardware I've picked so far:
>
> CPU: [Intel Core 2 Duo E6400] >>> Intel Core i5 12600
> The i5 12600 seems to be the best balance of specs
> and price in the 12th Gen line for my needs.  I
> don't need its integrated graphics processor since
> I plan to have a video card, which might speak to
> going for the 12600KF which doesn't have it.
> However, unlike in 11th Gen, the KF isn't just
> missing the GPU while inexplicably running at twice
> the wattage but has completely different architecture,
> so the question is whether the apparent modestly
> higher benchmarks on the KF are significant enough
> to justify all the impact of its higher power draw
> (and its higher price).
>
> CPU cooling: Not previously addressed in v2.0--I
> just used the fan Intel supplied with the CPU--
> but with the above CPUs it's become a factor.
> While the 12600 comes with a fan I've read some
> reviews which say that it's inadequate, and the
> KF doesn't come with any cooler, so either way
> I'd need to explore options here and while I have
> a sense that liquid might be better than air
> (though mostly seems to be used by gamers running
> rigs that would set their houses on fire if left
> to stock fans) I really don't have a good grip on
> this and would welcome guidance.
>
> Motherboard: [Asus P5B-E] >>> Asus Prime Z690-P WiFi
> Given my P5B-E's trouble-free performance to
> date I'm still something of an Asus loyalist
> although I know some folks around here tend to
> favour some other brands.  The Z690-P seems to
> be the best of Asus's LGA1700 MBs for my needs;
> I've never needed WiFi where I am so far but I
> figure for the few extra bucks over the other
> Asus Prime Z690s without it it couldn't hurt to
> get it now just in case of future need.
>
> Memory: [Crucial 2x1Gb Kit, DDR2-533, PC2-4200]
> >>> Crucial 2x16GB Kit, DDR5-4800 UDIMM CT2K16G48C40U5
> For me Crucial has always been the single
> no-brainer in builds.  If I'm reading the specs
> and guidelines for the above CPUs and MB properly
> I think this is the most compatible set; anyone
> know differently?  (I'm also assuming 2x16Gb is
> adequate; if not, I could bump up to 2x32Gb Kit
> or two 2x16GB Kits.)
>
> {Note: I originally specced this as an 11th Gen
> build with Intel i5 11600KF, Asus Prime Z590-P
> Wifi and Crucial DDR4-3200 memory since I was
> seeing some negative writeups of 12th Gen CPUs
> & sockets (e.g. buckling of the LGA1700 sockets
> which compromised CPU cooling) and CPU/MB prices
> but further reading suggested I still should go
> ahead and jump to 12th Gen; if there's any
> reason you think I'm better off with 11th Gen
> than 12th Gen please so advise.}
>
> Storage: [Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD] >>>
> Samsung 980PRO nvME M.2 PCIe4.0 SSD w/Heatsink
> While I'm old-skool enough to want to stick with
> a WD HDD as I have since the 1980s it's obvious
> that SSD is now the current standard and the
> Samsung 980PRO seems to be getting the best
> reviews I've found.  If it fits I might also
> hook up my current WD Blue 1TB HDD (five years
> old; it replaced the 10-year-old WD 320Gb
> WD3200KS) and use it for data storage but given
> that I've never filled any more than 75Gb on it
> with both programs and data (50Gb on its
> predecessor) even a 250Gb SSD likely would be
> far more than ever needed (though I'd probably
> spring for a 500Gb one just in case) so unless
> I keep the current system intact I'm more
> likely to get an enclosure for that HDD and
> turn it into an external backup drive.
>
> Optical Drive: [Samsung SH-S182D DVD/CD writer]
> >>> Asus BW-16D1HT Blu-Ray/DVD/CD writer
> I initially assumed I'd just transfer the
> existing drive over to the new build but I've
> just recently started to rethink this.  At the
> time of my current build Blu-Ray was fairly
> new and people were saying it wouldn't catch on,
> especially for computers, so I didn't get a
> Blu-Ray drive, just a DVD one, and I've never
> acquired any Blu-Ray discs (except a few that
> came as part of CD music album packages), even
> as they've apparently largely been relegated to
> the clearance bins at the Best Buys of the
> world.  However, just this year I've found that
> the label which acquired the back catalogue of
> certain longtime noted musician friends of mine
> has been reissuing their albums with Blu-Ray
> discs of remixes thereof (which also have some
> video content), and those can't be played on
> my TV's standalone HDD/DVD recorder any more
> than the DVD-Audio discs I have can be, so I'd
> need some kind of Blu-Ray reader and all the PC
> internal drives I'm finding are writers though
> all seem to have some kind of limitation of
> what discs of any kind they can handle.  The
> top reviewed ones seem to be LG, Asus and (less
> so) Pioneer, and the Asus has a power-saving
> feature which the others don't which gives it
> a bit of an edge when not in use.
>
> Video Card: [BFG GeForce 7600GT OC]
> This is a PCIe card that should run in one of
> the X16 slots on the Z690-P board so apparently
> no reason not to carry it over.  If, as it may
> turn out, this is the only piece that can be
> carried over I'd more likely keep the current
> system intact with it and then need to find a
> suitable card for the new system (BFG went out
> of business in 2010 so I can't just get another
> one of these); suggestions?
>
> Sound Card: [Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Platinum
> SB0460] >>> Creative Sound Blaster Audigy Rx
> Unfortunately I don't think I can use the X-Fi
> PCI card on the Z690-P in one of the other PCIe
> slots, and Creative tells me this Audigy is the
> best they can do for what I want although if
> someone's got a better idea I'm open to it,
> since this is an eight-year-old product with
> mixed reviews.  One of the key reasons for
> originally choosing the X-Fi Platinum was its
> front panel I/O drive box which was the only way
> to connect MIDI devices to the system (ditto RCA
> phone, phono and optical plugs), and Creative
> has not designed its current cards to work with
> this I/O box or otherwise duplicate its functions,
> now using only 3.5mm mini jacks necessitating a
> jungle of adaptor cords and plugs to connect
> anything else to them.  Evidently these days
> MIDI devices are now more often communicating
> via USB rather than 5-pin MIDI plugs, which
> would make the I/O box unnecessary for that
> purpose but I still like it for its facile
> multiplicity of connections and would have
> liked to have been able to keep it.
>
> Floppy Disk Drive: [NEC FD1231H-302]
> Yes, believe it or not I still have an archive
> of 3.5" floppies (even some 5") which I haven't
> had the time to copy onto a USB drive, and I
> have occasionally had people come to me with
> their own floppies they need me to read and/or
> transfer files from.  I see no reason not to
> be prepared if it's not a drain on resources,
> and since I can't reuse the one in my current
> system which seems to have failed I'd likely
> want to look at something which handles these
> and perhaps also assorted memory cards (SD,
> CF, etc) like the Syba SY-CRD50034 or Sabrent
> CRW-FLP2 (not that those seem to be findable
> any more), again just in case.
>
> Modem Card: [Multitech MT5634ZPX-PCI-U]
> Haven't had to send faxes from my computer in
> many years so not planning to try to carry
> this over; also unlikely it would run in a
> PCIe X16 slot even if I put it in.  Not
> using the computer as an answering machine
> either so don't know of any other reason to
> have a phone modem (except perhaps for a
> dialup backup if my broadband went out) but
> if the PCIe x1 slot is open I could always
> toss in a USRobotics USR5638, again (all
> together now) just in case.
>
> Power Supply: [PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750]
> I just got this power supply last year when
> the 15-year-old Silencer 470 gave out, so I
> would expect to transfer it to the new build
> unless I decide to keep the current system
> intact, in which case I'd just buy a new one
> of these for the new build unless a different
> one is called for.
>
> Case: [CoolerMaster Elite 330; added Antec TriCool 120 front fan]
> Currently planning to reuse this unless for
> some reason it's not a good match for the
> above scheme.  If I chose to keep the current
> system intact and so needed to buy a new case
> for the new build I'd want to get another one
> of these; unfortunately it's no longer made,
> nor is its successor, the 330U, which put the
> power supply at the bottom of the case instead
> of the top.  There doesn't seem to be a
> comparable unit in the current CoolerMaster
> line, the closest one being perhaps the N400;
> it would largely depend on how many front
> panel drive bay exposures I'd end up needing
> (and it seems that those have been disappearing
> from the vast majority of all manufacturers'
> cases, not just CM's).  I could be persuaded
> to look at models similar to the 330(U) from
> other brands if anyone has a favourite out
> there I don't know about.
>
> So there we are.  If anyone has bothered to
> read this far and would like to chime in I'd
> welcome the input.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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 by: Bill - Fri, 21 Oct 2022 01:49 UTC

On 10/20/2022 5:42 AM, Paul wrote:

> The M.2 sockets have made a mockery of motherboards. It caused a
> lot of expansion slots to disappear, and makes it impossible
> to reuse very nice PCI based kit. They could have put the M.2 on
> carrier boards. The could have used vertical connectors for the
> M.2 and come up with adapters to hold them in space. If you've ever
> tried to install an M.2 (I own one), they're a pain in the ass
> compared to the simplicity of sliding a SATA tray into a case
> and cabling up. This is why my M.2 has spent 99% of its life,
> in the little cardboard box it lives in.

I've never tried to install M.2 (drive). It appears to be a one screw
install, with no cables needed. No? I don't have one yet, but I thought
they were the new standard. What am I overlooking? I think that
installing my AIO cooler, especially the radiator/fan component, was by
far the most time consuming part of my last build. Corsair has the
impression that you should thread (tap?) the component yourself! Unlike
many reviewers who had similar observations, I figured out on my own
that this was best done outside of the computer case.

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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Subject: Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0
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 by: Paul - Fri, 21 Oct 2022 04:48 UTC

On 10/20/2022 9:49 PM, Bill wrote:
> On 10/20/2022 5:42 AM, Paul wrote:
>
>> The M.2 sockets have made a mockery of motherboards. It caused a
>> lot of expansion slots to disappear, and makes it impossible
>> to reuse very nice PCI based kit. They could have put the M.2 on
>> carrier boards. The could have used vertical connectors for the
>> M.2 and come up with adapters to hold them in space. If you've ever
>> tried to install an M.2 (I own one), they're a pain in the ass
>> compared to the simplicity of sliding a SATA tray into a case
>> and cabling up. This is why my M.2 has spent 99% of its life,
>> in the little cardboard box it lives in.
>
> I've never tried to install M.2 (drive). It appears to be a one screw install, with no cables needed. No?  I don't have one yet, but I thought they were the new standard.  What am I overlooking?   I think that installing my AIO cooler, especially the radiator/fan component, was by far the most time consuming part of my last build. Corsair has the impression that you should thread (tap?) the component yourself!  Unlike many reviewers who had similar observations, I figured out on my own that this was best done outside of the computer case.

The M.2 fits in at an angle, to the springy connector provided for it.
You are expected to hold a screw, in a magnetic screwdriver,
press the screw against the plated half-moon recess for the
screw, then press down the M.2 until it's in the seating plane.

https://www.dell.com/community/image/serverpage/image-id/19664i5DFB3A93C6E0496B/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999

There are *many* ways this could have been done better.

If I'm sitting there designing it, I imagine a technician
holding a flashlight with one hand (while lying on the floor),
and the other hand holding the M.2 and doing all the details
with that one hand. You shouldn't design stuff with fiddly bits
that can fall out. Like, even if the screw was captive with
a circlip on it, that would be a help. As at least it could
not fall out and potentially short something.

Paul

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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 by: Bill - Fri, 21 Oct 2022 07:30 UTC

On 10/21/2022 12:48 AM, Paul wrote:
> On 10/20/2022 9:49 PM, Bill wrote:
>> On 10/20/2022 5:42 AM, Paul wrote:
>>
>>> The M.2 sockets have made a mockery of motherboards. It caused a
>>> lot of expansion slots to disappear, and makes it impossible
>>> to reuse very nice PCI based kit. They could have put the M.2 on
>>> carrier boards. The could have used vertical connectors for the
>>> M.2 and come up with adapters to hold them in space. If you've ever
>>> tried to install an M.2 (I own one), they're a pain in the ass
>>> compared to the simplicity of sliding a SATA tray into a case
>>> and cabling up. This is why my M.2 has spent 99% of its life,
>>> in the little cardboard box it lives in.
>>
>> I've never tried to install M.2 (drive). It appears to be a one screw
>> install, with no cables needed. No?  I don't have one yet, but I
>> thought they were the new standard.  What am I overlooking?   I think
>> that installing my AIO cooler, especially the radiator/fan component,
>> was by far the most time consuming part of my last build. Corsair has
>> the impression that you should thread (tap?) the component yourself!
>> Unlike many reviewers who had similar observations, I figured out on
>> my own that this was best done outside of the computer case.
>
> The M.2 fits in at an angle, to the springy connector provided for it.
> You are expected to hold a screw, in a magnetic screwdriver,
> press the screw against the plated half-moon recess for the
> screw, then press down the M.2 until it's in the seating plane.
>
> https://www.dell.com/community/image/serverpage/image-id/19664i5DFB3A93C6E0496B/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999
>
>
> There are *many* ways this could have been done better.
>
> If I'm sitting there designing it, I imagine a technician
> holding a flashlight with one hand (while lying on the floor),
> and the other hand holding the M.2 and doing all the details
> with that one hand. You shouldn't design stuff with fiddly bits
> that can fall out. Like, even if the screw was captive with
> a circlip on it, that would be a help.

Ah, From what I read about it. I took it for granted that the "half moon
recess" permitted you to install the M.2 device without removing the
screw from the board. I don't even have a magnetic screwdriver. I
have a long "little grabby thing" (with about 6 long arms) that will
usually hold screws. That's how I get screws started into a
motherboard. That think is a life-saver after dropping something into
the engine compartment of my car! Also, I sometimes use Scotch tape to
holds the screw onto the end of a screw driver long enough to help
get it started. I'll have to pick up one of those fancy fan-dangled
magnetic screwdrivers! : )

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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From: mar...@invalid.net (marty)
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 by: marty - Fri, 21 Oct 2022 08:13 UTC

On 21/10/22 18:30, Bill wrote:
> On 10/21/2022 12:48 AM, Paul wrote:
>> On 10/20/2022 9:49 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> On 10/20/2022 5:42 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>> The M.2 sockets have made a mockery of motherboards. It caused a
>>>> lot of expansion slots to disappear, and makes it impossible
>>>> to reuse very nice PCI based kit. They could have put the M.2 on
>>>> carrier boards. The could have used vertical connectors for the
>>>> M.2 and come up with adapters to hold them in space. If you've ever
>>>> tried to install an M.2 (I own one), they're a pain in the ass
>>>> compared to the simplicity of sliding a SATA tray into a case
>>>> and cabling up. This is why my M.2 has spent 99% of its life,
>>>> in the little cardboard box it lives in.
>>>
>>> I've never tried to install M.2 (drive). It appears to be a one screw
>>> install, with no cables needed. No?  I don't have one yet, but I
>>> thought they were the new standard.  What am I overlooking?   I think
>>> that installing my AIO cooler, especially the radiator/fan component,
>>> was by far the most time consuming part of my last build. Corsair has
>>> the impression that you should thread (tap?) the component yourself!
>>> Unlike many reviewers who had similar observations, I figured out on
>>> my own that this was best done outside of the computer case.
>>
>> The M.2 fits in at an angle, to the springy connector provided for it.
>> You are expected to hold a screw, in a magnetic screwdriver,
>> press the screw against the plated half-moon recess for the
>> screw, then press down the M.2 until it's in the seating plane.
>>
>> https://www.dell.com/community/image/serverpage/image-id/19664i5DFB3A93C6E0496B/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999
>>
>> There are *many* ways this could have been done better.
>>
>> If I'm sitting there designing it, I imagine a technician
>> holding a flashlight with one hand (while lying on the floor),
>> and the other hand holding the M.2 and doing all the details
>> with that one hand. You shouldn't design stuff with fiddly bits
>> that can fall out. Like, even if the screw was captive with
>> a circlip on it, that would be a help.
>
> Ah, From what I read about it. I took it for granted that the "half moon
> recess" permitted you to install the M.2 device without removing the
> screw from the board.   I don't even have a magnetic screwdriver.  I
> have a long "little grabby thing" (with about 6 long arms) that will
> usually hold screws.  That's how I get screws started into a
> motherboard. That think is a life-saver after dropping something into
> the engine compartment of my car!  Also, I sometimes use Scotch tape to
> holds the screw onto the end of a screw driver long enough to help
> get it started.   I'll have to pick up one of those fancy fan-dangled
> magnetic screwdrivers!   : )

Just rub a magnet on a normal screwdriver, leave it there a few hours.
The magnetism transfers.

Cheers,

--
Marty

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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From: nonegi...@att.net (Bill)
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 by: Bill - Fri, 21 Oct 2022 08:57 UTC

On 10/21/2022 4:13 AM, marty wrote:
> On 21/10/22 18:30, Bill wrote:
I'll have to pick up one of those fancy fan-dangled
>> magnetic screwdrivers!   : )
>
> Just rub a magnet on a normal screwdriver, leave it there a few hours.
> The magnetism transfers.
>
> Cheers,
>

When I was 13, I built an induction coil (which possesses a lot of
magnetism). It's described on page 195-198 of the book, "The Boy
Electrician". I read about about it in a library book the first time.
I've since found a copy as a free download (on Google Books, I think). I
just looked, out of curiosity, and the first copyright was in the year
1913, the twelfth printing in 1966. Did you realize how easy it is to
make your own magnets, almost from scratch? : ) Based on my
experience, almost no 18 year olds can describe how a flashlight works.
They lack the the concept of "circuit". I know Paul knows! : )

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0
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 by: Paul - Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:29 UTC

On 10/21/2022 3:30 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 10/21/2022 12:48 AM, Paul wrote:
>> On 10/20/2022 9:49 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> On 10/20/2022 5:42 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>> The M.2 sockets have made a mockery of motherboards. It caused a
>>>> lot of expansion slots to disappear, and makes it impossible
>>>> to reuse very nice PCI based kit. They could have put the M.2 on
>>>> carrier boards. The could have used vertical connectors for the
>>>> M.2 and come up with adapters to hold them in space. If you've ever
>>>> tried to install an M.2 (I own one), they're a pain in the ass
>>>> compared to the simplicity of sliding a SATA tray into a case
>>>> and cabling up. This is why my M.2 has spent 99% of its life,
>>>> in the little cardboard box it lives in.
>>>
>>> I've never tried to install M.2 (drive). It appears to be a one screw install, with no cables needed. No?  I don't have one yet, but I thought they were the new standard.  What am I overlooking?   I think that installing my AIO cooler, especially the radiator/fan component, was by far the most time consuming part of my last build. Corsair has the impression that you should thread (tap?) the component yourself! Unlike many reviewers who had similar observations, I figured out on my own that this was best done outside of the computer case.
>>
>> The M.2 fits in at an angle, to the springy connector provided for it.
>> You are expected to hold a screw, in a magnetic screwdriver,
>> press the screw against the plated half-moon recess for the
>> screw, then press down the M.2 until it's in the seating plane.
>>
>> https://www.dell.com/community/image/serverpage/image-id/19664i5DFB3A93C6E0496B/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999
>>
>> There are *many* ways this could have been done better.
>>
>> If I'm sitting there designing it, I imagine a technician
>> holding a flashlight with one hand (while lying on the floor),
>> and the other hand holding the M.2 and doing all the details
>> with that one hand. You shouldn't design stuff with fiddly bits
>> that can fall out. Like, even if the screw was captive with
>> a circlip on it, that would be a help.
>
> Ah, From what I read about it. I took it for granted that the "half moon
> recess" permitted you to install the M.2 device without removing the screw from the board.   I don't even have a magnetic screwdriver.  I have a long "little grabby thing" (with about 6 long arms) that will usually hold screws.  That's how I get screws started into a motherboard. That think is a life-saver after dropping something into the engine compartment of my car!  Also, I sometimes use Scotch tape to holds the screw onto the end of a screw driver long enough to help
> get it started.   I'll have to pick up one of those fancy fan-dangled magnetic screwdrivers!   : )

The screw is kinda small. My magnetic screwdriver barely has
enough field, to sorta hold the screw. (You want the Philips
point to stay embedded in the tiny Philips screw head, while
you attempt to screw it in. A jewelers screwdriver philips version,
might be closer to the correct diameter, but then that's also
more of a nuisance to handle as a tool. The shaft and handle
separated on one of my jewelers screwdrivers, an apparent
interference fit.)

You can also get screwdrivers with a springy thing for holding
screws, but then, that's going to depend on some details
of the screw design. The magnet in mine, is in the shaft of the
screwdriver, and you put in a Philips bit in the socket, and the
mag field travels through the steel bit, and sorta holds the screw.
The magnet mainly secures the plugin bit and prevents it from falling out.

You can stroke an ordinary chrome-vanadium screwdriver on the
back of a speaker magnet, and that will induce a pretty good field.
Magnets out of former hard drives, may work for this as well.
I no longer do this to screwdrivers, because I have the socket
one to use for the purpose. Not all screws are ferrous, so
the magnet trick is not always available.

*******

You can degauss a screwdriver as well. But that's more of a
science experiment. Magnetizing them is easier than the degauss
step.

Paul

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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Subject: Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0
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 by: Paul - Fri, 21 Oct 2022 12:04 UTC

On 10/21/2022 4:57 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 10/21/2022 4:13 AM, marty wrote:
>> On 21/10/22 18:30, Bill wrote:
>  I'll have to pick up one of those fancy fan-dangled
>>> magnetic screwdrivers!   : )
>>
>> Just rub a magnet on a normal screwdriver, leave it there a few hours. The magnetism transfers.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>
> When I was 13, I built an induction coil (which possesses a lot of magnetism). It's described on page 195-198 of the book, "The Boy Electrician".  I read about about it in a library book the first time. I've since found a copy as a free download (on Google Books, I think). I just looked, out of curiosity, and the first copyright was in the year 1913, the twelfth printing in 1966. Did you realize how easy it is to make your own magnets, almost from scratch?  : )   Based on my experience, almost no 18 year olds can describe how a flashlight works.
> They lack the the concept of "circuit".  I know Paul knows!   : )

Yes, I was "that boy".

That's because I started with batteries and wires and
light bulbs and such, in the basement. I was self taught when
it came to digital logic. In 1972, a kind person at Fairchild
sent me a copy of the Fairchild databook, when I sent them a letter
asking if I could have a copy. Normally, a letter from a student
would be ignored, for such a thing as a databook, but someone
helped me out, and a fat package arrived in the mail with my databook.

And graduated to this. I built a working computer on a breadboard
in the basement, and it worked, and it was stable. Considering the
construction technique, that's a minor miracle. It was the slow
risetime of NMOS, that made it possible for me to get that project
to work. But I didn't know that at the time. The signals would have
looked a bit trapezoidal, but I had no oscilloscope, so it was
all "done by guess". You can see the date code on the chip is '78.
It took around a thousand pieces of insulated solid wire, stripped
on both ends and plugged into the protoboard, to wire it up.
Yes, I designed that on paper first, using the datasheets.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/wMcdLML8/home-computer-16bit.gif

When I first fired that up, the clockgen burned out. Somewhere
(no Google back then!), I found a reference to the
"need to buffer the clockgen output", and once I added a handful
of transistors to the stupid circuit, the clockgen ran cool enough
to survive. And then all I had to do, was hand code assembler to
make it run the calculator display. (75491/75492 muxed drive).
Like most computers, you hold it in RESET, until you get the
program store loaded, then... let'er rip. My program would display
the contents of memory, in hex digits on the calculator red LED display.
8 digits, gave 4 digits hex address, 4 digits of hex data.

This is the clockgen. Way too expensive, for a stupid thing like this.
Especially consider the power dissipation was too high for the plastic package.
I was not happy, not happy at all, when the first one burned out. And
I was more than a bit worried I'd burn out a second one. You only buy these
one at a time. I was one of those, what you call, "poor students",
and it was a stretch paying for this stuff.

https://archive.org/details/TIM9904Datasheet/TIM9904%20application%20note/page/n5/mode/2up

But getting that experience, that helped me get my first job. No, they
didn't ask me to build one of those when I got there :-)

Another thing I found in the junk drawer, was the CRT5027.
That was my "video card". What's neat about that, is it's
a frame buffer, and it doesn't even do BITBLT. But it had
a bank of exactly nine registers, and the nine registers take
the same "modeline parameters" a modern video card takes.
(That means the same interface has been in usage for 44 years.)
You define a lengthy front and back porch, to make the video
signal work with your interleaved TV set. Chip date code was '78.
it would do 640x480 with black&white pixels. No gray scale. No color.
I got that working with a 12" CRT black and white TV set.

Paul

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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 by: Bill - Sat, 22 Oct 2022 03:10 UTC

On 10/21/2022 8:04 AM, Paul wrote:
> On 10/21/2022 4:57 AM, Bill wrote:
>> On 10/21/2022 4:13 AM, marty wrote:
>>> On 21/10/22 18:30, Bill wrote:
>>   I'll have to pick up one of those fancy fan-dangled
>>>> magnetic screwdrivers!   : )
>>>
>>> Just rub a magnet on a normal screwdriver, leave it there a few
>>> hours. The magnetism transfers.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>
>> When I was 13, I built an induction coil (which possesses a lot of
>> magnetism). It's described on page 195-198 of the book, "The Boy
>> Electrician".  I read about about it in a library book the first time.
>> I've since found a copy as a free download (on Google Books, I think).
>> I just looked, out of curiosity, and the first copyright was in the
>> year 1913, the twelfth printing in 1966. Did you realize how easy it
>> is to make your own magnets, almost from scratch?  : )   Based on my
>> experience, almost no 18 year olds can describe how a flashlight works.
>> They lack the the concept of "circuit".  I know Paul knows!   : )
>
> Yes, I was "that boy".
>
> That's because I started with batteries and wires and
> light bulbs and such, in the basement. I was self taught when
> it came to digital logic. In 1972, a kind person at Fairchild
> sent me a copy of the Fairchild databook, when I sent them a letter
> asking if I could have a copy. Normally, a letter from a student
> would be ignored, for such a thing as a databook, but someone
> helped me out, and a fat package arrived in the mail with my databook.
>
> And graduated to this. I built a working computer on a breadboard
> in the basement, and it worked, and it was stable. Considering the
> construction technique, that's a minor miracle.

Yours project was much more sophisticated than mine, but I too
considered it a "minor miracle" that my project worked (and on the first
try!) I still remember going to my local hardware store and asking for
some "ferric" wire (which the design called for, for both for the core
and the coils about the core). Apparently that was an unusual request. I
bought and used what looked like the closest thing (which looked like
wire one would hang pictures with). ; ) I read all of the issues of
the now defunct magazine "Popular Electronics" in the 1970s from the
time that the first computer kits one could build were available. The
kits were not cheap either (hundreds of dollars in 197X dollars). My
wallet could never justify the price, but what I learned provided a
foundation for what lied ahead. Maybe it helped to introduce me to "how
to" think and/or how to read carefully---two skills that I am still
striving to improve and apply. -- Bill

It was the slow
> risetime of NMOS, that made it possible for me to get that project
> to work. But I didn't know that at the time. The signals would have
> looked a bit trapezoidal, but I had no oscilloscope, so it was
> all "done by guess". You can see the date code on the chip is '78.
> It took around a thousand pieces of insulated solid wire, stripped
> on both ends and plugged into the protoboard, to wire it up.
> Yes, I designed that on paper first, using the datasheets.
>
>    [Picture]
>
>    https://i.postimg.cc/wMcdLML8/home-computer-16bit.gif
>
> When I first fired that up, the clockgen burned out. Somewhere
> (no Google back then!), I found a reference to the
> "need to buffer the clockgen output", and once I added a handful
> of transistors to the stupid circuit, the clockgen ran cool enough
> to survive. And then all I had to do, was hand code assembler to
> make it run the calculator display. (75491/75492 muxed drive).
> Like most computers, you hold it in RESET, until you get the
> program store loaded, then... let'er rip. My program would display
> the contents of memory, in hex digits on the calculator red LED display.
> 8 digits, gave 4 digits hex address, 4 digits of hex data.
>
> This is the clockgen. Way too expensive, for a stupid thing like this.
> Especially consider the power dissipation was too high for the plastic
> package.
> I was not happy, not happy at all, when the first one burned out. And
> I was more than a bit worried I'd burn out a second one. You only buy these
> one at a time. I was one of those, what you call, "poor students",
> and it was a stretch paying for this stuff.
>
> https://archive.org/details/TIM9904Datasheet/TIM9904%20application%20note/page/n5/mode/2up
>
>
> But getting that experience, that helped me get my first job. No, they
> didn't ask me to build one of those when I got there :-)
>
> Another thing I found in the junk drawer, was the CRT5027.
> That was my "video card". What's neat about that, is it's
> a frame buffer, and it doesn't even do BITBLT. But it had
> a bank of exactly nine registers, and the nine registers take
> the same "modeline parameters" a modern video card takes.
> (That means the same interface has been in usage for 44 years.)
> You define a lengthy front and back porch, to make the video
> signal work with your interleaved TV set. Chip date code was '78.
> it would do 640x480 with black&white pixels. No gray scale. No color.
> I got that working with a 12" CRT black and white TV set.
>
>    Paul

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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 by: David Samuel Barr - Sun, 23 Oct 2022 03:37 UTC

Thanks, Paul. Once again, as in 2006, you've
provided insights which are causing me to
completely rethink my initial build plans.
(See further below:)

On 10/20/2022 5:42 AM, Paul wrote:
> On 10/19/2022 9:27 PM, David Samuel Barr wrote:
[lengthy original post snipped for space]
>> So there we are.  If anyone has bothered to
>> read this far and would like to chime in I'd
>> welcome the input.
>
> It's a shame in a way, that the motherboard industry has lost
> sight of the customer base.
>
> It's pretty hard to find a PCI slot on a motherboard. A
> Tenth Gen board seems to have one. These are provided by
> a bridge chip, rather than coming off the Southbridge directly.
> (My older system uses one of those bridge chips and it is
> seamless and fine stuff.)
>
> The PCi slot would be for the reuse of your sound card. There is not
> a lot of brand new tenth gen boards available (I see some refurbs).
>
> BluRay movie playback, at HD 1920 likely doesn't have
> as much in the way of playback requirements. At 4K resolution,
> you need an Intel security processor, and that's on the
> tenth generation, but not on later processors. Intel had
> to pin that off, because there was an exploit for it. SGX.
> I have to be really careful about what I say about a topic
> like this, because there are so many ways to pin it off,
> it could happen at any time.
>
> https://www.pcworld.com/article/606310/the-newest-intel-cpus-give-4k-blu-rays-a-1080p-downgrade.html

I'm not concerned with 4K Blu-Ray movies. As Imentioned, my need for
Blu-Ray is driven mostlyby audio files on Blu-Ray discs, and I expect
that most of the limited amount of Blu-Ray video
I'd be viewing is scans of 50-year-old film of
low original quality, so 1080p thereof is
probably more than adequate for it.
> AVX512 has been pinned off on some newer Intel processors,
> after they left the factory. You can pin them off in microcode
> (multiple delivery vehicles, including the OS). Chips leaving
> the factory have that lasered off now. To work in the first
> place, the CPU core had to be downclocked, while the AVX512 block
> was being used (part of avoiding thermal and power issues).
> AVX512 doesn't have a lot of uses, except when it's used on
> some of the benchmarking charts to "win a prize". Note that
> AMD is making AVX512 appear for the first time, on their Zen4,
> but the instruction set may not be absolutely identical. And
> there's a chance it won't have the same issues as the Intel one.
>
> Summary: I see your situation this way
>
> 1) Keep existing system, complete with potential software/hardware
>    for doing MIDI and the like. Keep the 7600GT in the existing system.
>    The 7600GT is unlikely to have a Windows 11 quality of driver,
>    like a WDDM 3.0 driver. I think I had Windows 10 running on my
>    BFG 7900GT that I got for $65 when BFG closed up, so you could
>    likely go as far as Windows 10.
>
> 2) Buy new system as "fancy 5GHz calculator". It will be fast as
>    blazes. With the fetish for M.2 flash storage, you cannot but help
>    to win benchmark races and so on. Buy a K rather than a KF processor,
>    as the KF does not have an internal GPU. You can save money by using
>    a processor that on ark.intel.com, lists a GPU as being present. Do
>    not waste your money on overpriced video cards. You can use the HDMI
>    or DP video connectors on a number of motherboards on their I/O plate,
>    to be able to use the internal GPU on the Intel processor. I keep a
>    handful of DP to VGA and HDMI to VGA adapters so the motherboard GPU
>    can talk to a VGA monitor.
>
> Because of the I/O starvation on modern motherboards, they're no longer
> a good match for "doing stuff". You can't have a hobby with one. but
> you can likely "browse like stink", and when the browser goes into
> a loop and slows down, you can take comfort in the knowledge it is
> burning up 228W while spinning in 5GHz circles :-) You can turn off
> turbo, if you don't want the fans to spin up with the Intel trickery.

This does seem to make sense. I've always had
a single system with which I did everything, but
given that current MBs and components really
don't support music or media usage the way older
equipment does (and which equipment can't be used
on newer MBs), and also that for the foreseeable
future I'm going to be shuttling between two
residences (this year I've started to live with
and care for my elderly father at his house most
of the time but still have my own apartment as my
base), having two systems, one mostly for work
and online activity in one location and the other
mostly for music/media/online in the other, seems
a more practical solution. I would still have
the issue of the XP system not being able to run
some websites or programs and likely be forced
to move up the Windows chain on it as far as the
hardware will allow. At the same time, the new
system wouldn't (at least for the time being)
need to start out with all the sound/video cards
I'd here specced and if it turned out the onboard
solutions aren't in fact adequate I can always
add them later. (I will, though, obviously have
to come up with another monitor for one of the
systems but that's a whole other issue.)

> Did I mention this is not my favorite time line ? Could you tell ?
> The M.2 sockets have made a mockery of motherboards. It caused a
> lot of expansion slots to disappear, and makes it impossible
> to reuse very nice PCI based kit. They could have put the M.2 on
> carrier boards. The could have used vertical connectors for the
> M.2 and come up with adapters to hold them in space. If you've ever
> tried to install an M.2 (I own one), they're a pain in the ass
> compared to the simplicity of sliding a SATA tray into a case
> and cabling up. This is why my M.2 has spent 99% of its life,
> in the little cardboard box it lives in.
>
>    Paul

As I mentioned, I'm inclined to stick with
trusty Western Digital HDDs, but it does seem
the M.2 SSDs are taking over, and I get the
sense that current MBs are being built to
favour M.2 performance over SATA though I'd
need to research that further. The installation
difficulties described in the followups to
this thread might give one pause but I do
have a set of small (though nonmagnetic)
screwdrivers and would do this step on a
table outside of the case to reduce the
chance of losing the screw, so I may give an
M.2 SSD a shot and if it doesn't work can fall
back on an SATA HDD.

In any event, as before, it looks like I'll
be coming back with a revised v4.0 spec once
I follow up on your and the other comments
here with additional research.

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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Subject: Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0
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From: dsb...@mindspring.com (David Samuel Barr)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 23:37:35 -0400
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 by: David Samuel Barr - Sun, 23 Oct 2022 03:37 UTC

Thanks, Bill; please see below:

On 10/20/2022 1:28 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 10/19/2022 9:27 PM, David Samuel Barr wrote:
>
>> Given that, here's the hardware I've picked so far:
>>
>> CPU: [Intel Core 2 Duo E6400] >>> Intel Core i5 12600
>> The i5 12600 seems to be the best balance of specs
>> and price in the 12th Gen line for my needs.  I
>> don't need its integrated graphics processor since
>> I plan to have a video card, which might speak to
>> going for the 12600KF which doesn't have it.
> Given the small incremental price for built-in graphics,
> I think it's a silly mistake not to get it. It would be very
> convenient if your graphics card dies (like mine did after 7 years).
> Last week I installed a defective graphics card that I purchased from
> Ebay, and my built in graphics was of immeasurable value in establishing
> the "defectiveness" (is that a word???  : ) ) of the "new" graphics
> card.  I'm using it right now. Intel HD 4600.  The best $20 I ever spent.

Actually, as I noted, for some odd reason
the 12600 chip with the GPU is actually
cheaper and runs at lower wattage than the
KF version without it, so the price isn't
the main concern, but your point about it
covering for a failed graphics card is
well taken (although my current video card
is still running after over 15 years).

> Concerning a CPU cooler. I really like my AIO cooler. I have
> a Corsair H115 (it runs quietly, to the point of turning its fans off if
> not needed), and you don't even have to blow the dust out of it (which I
> appreciate too!)  You'll save money if you can get the one without RGB.
>  But last time I checked, Corsair still wasn't packaging it with the
> hardware to fit the Intel 12 (and 13th) generation CPUs. They have a
> workaround you can read more about, or you can look for an alternative.
> But at least now you are aware of this detail.

Thanks; I'm researching AIOs and I'll check
out the Corsair.

> Hope that helps.  I am not a hardware expert, so I'll stop there.  Good
> luck with your new system!

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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 by: Bill - Sun, 23 Oct 2022 03:47 UTC

On 10/22/2022 11:37 PM, David Samuel Barr wrote:

> As I mentioned, I'm inclined to stick with
> trusty Western Digital HDDs,

IMO, This would be a very poor choice. SSD's (or M.2) offer a Very
Significant improvement over HDDs. If you were not already aware of
this, you may soon see!

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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From: bobnos...@gmail.com (Bob F)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 22:30:20 -0700
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 by: Bob F - Sun, 23 Oct 2022 05:30 UTC

On 10/22/2022 8:37 PM, David Samuel Barr wrote:
> Thanks, Paul.  Once again, as in 2006, you've
> provided insights which are causing me to
> completely rethink my initial build plans.
> (See further below:)
>
> On 10/20/2022 5:42 AM, Paul wrote:
>> On 10/19/2022 9:27 PM, David Samuel Barr wrote:
> [lengthy original post snipped for space]
>>> So there we are.  If anyone has bothered to
>>> read this far and would like to chime in I'd
>>> welcome the input.
>>
>> It's a shame in a way, that the motherboard industry has lost
>> sight of the customer base.
>>
>> It's pretty hard to find a PCI slot on a motherboard. A
>> Tenth Gen board seems to have one. These are provided by
>> a bridge chip, rather than coming off the Southbridge directly.
>> (My older system uses one of those bridge chips and it is
>> seamless and fine stuff.)
>>
>> The PCi slot would be for the reuse of your sound card. There is not
>> a lot of brand new tenth gen boards available (I see some refurbs).
>>
>> BluRay movie playback, at HD 1920 likely doesn't have
>> as much in the way of playback requirements. At 4K resolution,
>> you need an Intel security processor, and that's on the
>> tenth generation, but not on later processors. Intel had
>> to pin that off, because there was an exploit for it. SGX.
>> I have to be really careful about what I say about a topic
>> like this, because there are so many ways to pin it off,
>> it could happen at any time.
>>
>> https://www.pcworld.com/article/606310/the-newest-intel-cpus-give-4k-blu-rays-a-1080p-downgrade.html
>
>
> I'm not concerned with 4K Blu-Ray movies.  As Imentioned, my need for
> Blu-Ray is driven mostlyby audio files on Blu-Ray discs, and I expect
> that most of the limited amount of Blu-Ray video
> I'd be viewing is scans of 50-year-old film of
> low original quality, so 1080p thereof is
> probably more than adequate for it.
>> AVX512 has been pinned off on some newer Intel processors,
>> after they left the factory. You can pin them off in microcode
>> (multiple delivery vehicles, including the OS). Chips leaving
>> the factory have that lasered off now. To work in the first
>> place, the CPU core had to be downclocked, while the AVX512 block
>> was being used (part of avoiding thermal and power issues).
>> AVX512 doesn't have a lot of uses, except when it's used on
>> some of the benchmarking charts to "win a prize". Note that
>> AMD is making AVX512 appear for the first time, on their Zen4,
>> but the instruction set may not be absolutely identical. And
>> there's a chance it won't have the same issues as the Intel one.
>>
>> Summary: I see your situation this way
>>
>> 1) Keep existing system, complete with potential software/hardware
>>     for doing MIDI and the like. Keep the 7600GT in the existing system.
>>     The 7600GT is unlikely to have a Windows 11 quality of driver,
>>     like a WDDM 3.0 driver. I think I had Windows 10 running on my
>>     BFG 7900GT that I got for $65 when BFG closed up, so you could
>>     likely go as far as Windows 10.
>>
>> 2) Buy new system as "fancy 5GHz calculator". It will be fast as
>>     blazes. With the fetish for M.2 flash storage, you cannot but help
>>     to win benchmark races and so on. Buy a K rather than a KF processor,
>>     as the KF does not have an internal GPU. You can save money by using
>>     a processor that on ark.intel.com, lists a GPU as being present. Do
>>     not waste your money on overpriced video cards. You can use the HDMI
>>     or DP video connectors on a number of motherboards on their I/O
>> plate,
>>     to be able to use the internal GPU on the Intel processor. I keep a
>>     handful of DP to VGA and HDMI to VGA adapters so the motherboard GPU
>>     can talk to a VGA monitor.
>>
>> Because of the I/O starvation on modern motherboards, they're no longer
>> a good match for "doing stuff". You can't have a hobby with one. but
>> you can likely "browse like stink", and when the browser goes into
>> a loop and slows down, you can take comfort in the knowledge it is
>> burning up 228W while spinning in 5GHz circles :-) You can turn off
>> turbo, if you don't want the fans to spin up with the Intel trickery.
>
> This does seem to make sense.  I've always had
> a single system with which I did everything, but
> given that current MBs and components really
> don't support music or media usage the way older
> equipment does (and which equipment can't be used
> on newer MBs), and also that for the foreseeable
> future I'm going to be shuttling between two
> residences (this year I've started to live with
> and care for my elderly father at his house most
> of the time but still have my own apartment as my
> base), having two systems, one mostly for work
> and online activity in one location and the other
> mostly for music/media/online in the other, seems
> a more practical solution.  I would still have
> the issue of the XP system not being able to run
> some websites or programs and likely be forced
> to move up the Windows chain on it as far as the
> hardware will allow.  At the same time, the new
> system wouldn't (at least for the time being)
> need to start out with all the sound/video cards
> I'd here specced and if it turned out the onboard
> solutions aren't in fact adequate I can always
> add them later.  (I will, though, obviously have
> to come up with another monitor for one of the
> systems but that's a whole other issue.)
>
>> Did I mention this is not my favorite time line ? Could you tell ?
>> The M.2 sockets have made a mockery of motherboards. It caused a
>> lot of expansion slots to disappear, and makes it impossible
>> to reuse very nice PCI based kit. They could have put the M.2 on
>> carrier boards. The could have used vertical connectors for the
>> M.2 and come up with adapters to hold them in space. If you've ever
>> tried to install an M.2 (I own one), they're a pain in the ass
>> compared to the simplicity of sliding a SATA tray into a case
>> and cabling up. This is why my M.2 has spent 99% of its life,
>> in the little cardboard box it lives in.
>>
>>     Paul
>
> As I mentioned, I'm inclined to stick with
> trusty Western Digital HDDs, but it does seem
> the M.2 SSDs are taking over, and I get the
> sense that current MBs are being built to
> favour M.2 performance over SATA though I'd
> need to research that further.  The installation
> difficulties described in the followups to
> this thread might give one pause but I do
> have a set of small (though nonmagnetic)
> screwdrivers and would do this step on a
> table outside of the case to reduce the
> chance of losing the screw, so I may give an
> M.2 SSD a shot and if it doesn't work can fall
> back on an SATA HDD.
>
> In any event, as before, it looks like I'll
> be coming back with a revised v4.0 spec once
> I follow up on your and the other comments
> here with additional research.

Once you try the M.2, you will not be sorry you bought it. I have a 1TB
M.2 for the OS, and a 4TB HD for bulk storage, which works great for my
needs. The boot speed is way faster than even the SATA SSD's.

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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From: toylet.t...@gmail.com (Mr. Man-wai Chang)
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 by: Mr. Man-wai Chang - Fri, 28 Oct 2022 17:05 UTC

On 28/10/2022 9:17 pm, Skybuck Flying wrote:
>
> If it's 32 bit windows xp it could be somewhat fine. If it's 64 bit bit windows xp then ouch, it was very buggy.
>
> Windows 7 is much more stable.

There is a newsgroup alt.windows7.general

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2022 19:56:39 -0400
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 by: Paul - Fri, 28 Oct 2022 23:56 UTC

On 10/28/2022 12:08 PM, Skybuck Flying wrote:
> Wow this is brand new, a competitor for the Apple M1 and Apple M2 except now it's for desktop usage:
>
> Project Volterra from Microsoft ! =D
>
> https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2022/10/24/available-today-windows-dev-kit-2023-aka-project-volterra/
>
> Funny stuff !
>
> Bye,
> Skybuck.
>

The Apple processors have a higher IPC (instructions per clock).

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16226/Firestorm.png

The Snapdragon would be "pretty ordinary" by comparison.

They're not really in the same class.

And the Apple processor is useless, without a good compiler.
Both have to be ready at the day of release, to put on
a good show for the folks. If an "ordinary" compiler generates
code for the Apple processor, then 30% potential performance
could be unrealized.

*******

In the past, when humans hand-optimize the GCC toolchain,
it takes around *ten years* to make excellent object code
perfectly suited to a new processor architecture.

GCC only uses about 1/3rd of the Intel instruction set.
Many of the instructions, the GCC developers can see no
purpose for the instruction, and no way to gain extra
performance from usage of the instruction. It would be
interesting to see what percentage of the instruction
set that the Apple compiler covers. And whether there
are quite as many "junk" instructions.

Intel probably had good reason to make some of those instructions,
but has been unsuccessful in telling third parties why the
instructions exist. If you look at an Intel instruction
set document, it is "machine generated" and all humanity
is erased from the PDF. When I look at that PDF, I get
a good chuckle at what I'm seeing. We used to do shit
like that at work, but not to the extent Intel did it.

Agner Fog has written some good web pages about the
work of Intel. And asking Intel to "please stop making
new instructions", because all it does is make
unnecessary work for compiler people.

https://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/read.php?i=25

Paul

Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0

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Subject: Re: Seeking advice on planned new build -- v3.0
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 by: Paul - Sat, 29 Oct 2022 00:42 UTC

On 10/28/2022 12:12 PM, Skybuck Flying wrote:
> Another competitor for the Apple M1/M2:
>
> Surface Pro 9, intel and arm versions available
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpABlcB4gZI
>
> Hmmm...
>
> Bye,
> Skybuck.
>

"Geekbench scores have appeared for a Surface device with a Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3.
The results are mixed, ranging from
867 to 1,005 on single-core, and
4,748 to 5,574 on multi-core."

And this is just a ballpark for an M1.

Single-Core Score 1720
Multi-Core Score 7557

The single core value is what gives a
computer it's "snap".

The Surface computers, are not top end like
an Alienware. That's not the intention.

Microsoft likes to pretend they have "style".
Not substance. They're not afraid to put
older processors into their products.

But there is plenty of room in the market for them.
People do buy those things.

Paul

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