On 2024-04-11 11:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>>
> I'll try and post mine somewhere. Finished it last night,. It's working
> well with two SSDS and a chip temp of around 65°C-75°C dependent on load.
>
> $ vcgencmd measure_temp
> temp=68.1'C

I have a pi4 2Gb RAM in a closet, running 24/7.
The load on it I'd say is low to medium (whatever that means)
It polls betfair for odds during horse races as fast as it can when a
'suitable' race is on. That is 1-5 minutes say up to 30 times per day.
It inserts that data into a PostgreSQL database and makes graphs ans stats
a couple of times per day.
It never exceed 50 C so far. I've got historical 'vcgencmd measure_temp'
for some years now - once per minute

It is in a flirc case - no fan.

--
/Björn

In message <uv8be3$1k8fn$2@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
>I'll try and post mine somewhere. Finished it last night,. It's working
>well with two SSDS and a chip temp of around 65°C-75°C dependent on
>load.
>

Thanks

I found a suitable candidate on printables.com :

<https://www.printables.com/model/48006-prusa-mini-raspberry-pi-case-for-
the-pi4-b/files>

which I've modified. I've made the base 4mm thicker, which gives me
enough depth to put two countersunk holes in it so I can screw the base
down.

>Can you tweak STLs?
>

Not easily. However, in this case (!), there is the option to download
the f3d file which can be uploaded into Fusion360 and then worked on in
there.

Pi4, power supply and HDMI lead on order. I was hoping that they would
arrive today, but DHL seem to think that they would prefer to spend
their day at their local depot.

Adrian
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In message <BgBGXbDiy9FmFwYk@ku.gro.lloiff>, Adrian
<bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> writes
>Pi4, power supply and HDMI lead on order. I was hoping that they would
>arrive today, but DHL seem to think that they would prefer to spend
>their day at their local depot.
>

After spending a day at the depot, it was sent out for delivery today.
According to the 07:58 email, it should have been with me between 10:19
and 11:19. According to the tracking site, at 10:30 I was the next
drop. At 14:20 I gave up waiting and went out. Parcel arrived at 14:40,
and was left next to the front door, fortunately not obvious from the
road.

Work is now underway to install the software etc. on the new Pi.

Thanks again for all the help.

Adrian
--
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On 10/04/2024 10:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
>> 40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
>> month.
>>
>> I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use
>> of the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
>> temperature is.  I suppose I could design one of my own
>
> Seriously, you don't need a fan.
>
> Just a *ventilated* case.
>
> I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille in
> one end wall.
>
> Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
> air, all will be well

The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is
anything other than sitting idle all the time.
I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
will keep it at full speed under any load.
---druck

On 2024-04-14, druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
> On 10/04/2024 10:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
>>> 40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
>>> month.
>>>
>>> I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use
>>> of the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
>>> temperature is.?? I suppose I could design one of my own
>>
>> Seriously, you don't need a fan.
>>
>> Just a *ventilated* case.
>>
>> I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille in
>> one end wall.
>>
>> Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
>> air, all will be well
>
>
> The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is
> anything other than sitting idle all the time.
>
> I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
> will keep it at full speed under any load.

I use this passive heatsink on my pi4s

https://thepihut.com/products/aluminium-armour-heatsink-case-for-raspberry-pi-4

But it there are not in cases otherwise.
Did some tests ages ago and it never throttled.

p.s. disclaimer - no relationship to pihut except as a satisfied customer.

On 14/04/2024 19:51, druck wrote:
> On 10/04/2024 10:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
>>> 40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
>>> month.
>>>
>>> I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use
>>> of the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
>>> temperature is.  I suppose I could design one of my own
>>
>> Seriously, you don't need a fan.
>>
>> Just a *ventilated* case.
>>
>> I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille
>> in one end wall.
>>
>> Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
>> air, all will be well
>
>
> The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is
> anything other than sitting idle all the time.
>
I am not interested in proof by assertion
I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C

> I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
> will keep it at full speed under any load.
>
I question that it will in fact throttle.

Like so much 'everybody knows' when you look at it it is in fact
'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.

The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
cooling

> ---druck
>

--
Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.
– Will Durant

On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:51:33 +0100, druck <news@druck.org.uk>
wrote:

[...]
> The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is
> anything other than sitting idle all the time.
>
> I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
> will keep it at full speed under any load.

I sometimes use a small 12V fan on Pi3 or Pi4, running at 5V.
It does not "blow", but it "moves air" well h to prevent
throttling.

No all 12V fans will work, but if it does, it is silent and with
less wear than high RPM fans.
--
Kees Nuyt

On 14/04/2024 20:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 14/04/2024 19:51, druck wrote:
>> The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it
>> is anything other than sitting idle all the time.
>>
> I am not interested in proof by assertion
> I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C
So you were only using 1 and a bit cores, hardly taxing it.
>> I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
>> will keep it at full speed under any load.
>>
> I question that it will in fact throttle.
If you do something which uses multiple cores it will.
> Like so much 'everybody knows'  when you look at it it is in fact
> 'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.
I'm telling you so, and I'm not selling you a fan, although I do have a
bridge going spare if you don't believe that.
> The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
> cooling
That might have been the case for a Pi 1 or 2, 3 and 3+s would throttle
if pushed hard enough, 4s and 5s will easily.
---druck

druck wrote:

>The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is
>anything other than sitting idle all the time.
>
>I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
>will keep it at full speed under any load.

I use the Flirc full body aluminium case for my two Rpi4s, it does not
have a ventilator but nicely transports the energy away from the CPU and
you can feel that the case gets slightly warm when the Pi is in use. I
like it this way because there is one part less that can break in the
setup.

-jw-
--
And now for something completely different...

In message <Q1Um1HLk7VGmFwj8@ku.gro.lloiff>, Adrian
<bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> writes
>In message <BgBGXbDiy9FmFwYk@ku.gro.lloiff>, Adrian
><bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> writes
>>Pi4, power supply and HDMI lead on order. I was hoping that they
>>would arrive today, but DHL seem to think that they would prefer to
>>spend their day at their local depot.
>>
>
>After spending a day at the depot, it was sent out for delivery today.
>According to the 07:58 email, it should have been with me between 10:19
>and 11:19. According to the tracking site, at 10:30 I was the next
>drop. At 14:20 I gave up waiting and went out. Parcel arrived at
>14:40, and was left next to the front door, fortunately not obvious
>from the road.
>
>Work is now underway to install the software etc. on the new Pi.
>
>Thanks again for all the help.
>
>Adrian

Noting the discussions elsewhere on the thread, I though the following
might be useful. I take various readings every minute including the CPU
temperature, the ambient temperature and the CPU loading. Having now
had the Pi4 installed in its new home, the following is from the first
full 24 hour period (min max mean) :

CPU Temp 36.5 51.1 41.1
Ambient temp 12.7 18.5 15.6
CPU load % 0.00 1.31 0.09

It will be interesting to see how that works out over a longer period.

Performance wise, it is a vast improvement. Prior to the upgrade on
matplotlib, I had one job running every 10 minutes, taking 5-6 minutes
(11-12 minutes post software upgrade). That now runs in under 1 minute.

Adrian
--
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replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
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On 15/04/2024 15:13, druck wrote:
> On 14/04/2024 20:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 14/04/2024 19:51, druck wrote:
>>> The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it
>>> is anything other than sitting idle all the time.
>>>
>> I am not interested in proof by assertion
>> I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C
>
> So you were only using 1 and a bit cores, hardly taxing it.
>
>>> I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive
>>> fan will keep it at full speed under any load.
>>>
>> I question that it will in fact throttle.
>
> If you do something which uses multiple cores it will.
>
>> Like so much 'everybody knows'  when you look at it it is in fact
>> 'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.
>
> I'm telling you so, and I'm not selling you a fan, although I do have a
> bridge going spare if you don't believe that.
>

I don't know what case you are using, but I have tested my geekworm
aluminium passive case. It does not throttle using:

stress-ng --cpu 4

Calcs suggest it might throttle on the hottest day of the year, but not
normally.

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is
> > anything other than sitting idle all the time.
> >
> I am not interested in proof by assertion
> I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C

You do know that 'top' won't show throttling? Throttling means the CPU is
clocked lower than the maximum frequency to reduce heat generation - top
will still show '100%' of CPU (for one core) but that will be 100% of a
lower clock speed.

cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_cur_freq

shows you the current clock of CPU core 0 and:

sudo vcgencmd get_throttled

will tell you the throttling status:

#### get_throttled

Returns the throttled state of the system. This is a bit pattern.

| Bit | Meaning |
|:---:|---------|
| 0 | Under-voltage detected |
| 1 | Arm frequency capped |
| 2 | Currently throttled |
| 3 | Soft temperature limit active |
| 16 | Under-voltage has occurred |
| 17 | Arm frequency capped has occurred |
| 18 | Throttling has occurred |
| 19 | Soft temperature limit has occurred

For example if I run 'stress -c 4' then get_throttled gives me:
throttled=0xe0008

so the temperature limit is in operation and throttling has occurred in the
past. (this Pi4 has cooling, I can't remember but I think there's a
heatsink and fan in there)

$ sudo vcgencmd measure_temp
temp=84.7'C

so it's up near its thermal limit.

> > I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
> > will keep it at full speed under any load.
> >
> I question that it will in fact throttle.
>
> Like so much 'everybody knows' when you look at it it is in fact
> 'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.

'Everybody knows' because they have evidence, not assertions.

> The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
> cooling

Everyone's been thermally limited for maybe 15 years, it's just that Arm
cores have traditionally targeted a lower thermal envelope in devices where
forced air cooling isn't an option. The way this works is that CPUs work
until they hit their thermal envelope and then throttle. No popular
application processor for maybe a couple of decades has been able to power
all the silicon at once to max performance and stay within the thermal
budget.

Theo

On 16/04/2024 10:59, Theo wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is
>>> anything other than sitting idle all the time.
>>>
>> I am not interested in proof by assertion
>> I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C
>
> You do know that 'top' won't show throttling? Throttling means the CPU is
> clocked lower than the maximum frequency to reduce heat generation - top
> will still show '100%' of CPU (for one core) but that will be 100% of a
> lower clock speed.
>
> cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_cur_freq
>
> shows you the current clock of CPU core 0 and:
>
> sudo vcgencmd get_throttled
>
> will tell you the throttling status:
>
>
> #### get_throttled
>
> Returns the throttled state of the system. This is a bit pattern.
>
> | Bit | Meaning |
> |:---:|---------|
> | 0 | Under-voltage detected |
> | 1 | Arm frequency capped |
> | 2 | Currently throttled |
> | 3 | Soft temperature limit active |
> | 16 | Under-voltage has occurred |
> | 17 | Arm frequency capped has occurred |
> | 18 | Throttling has occurred |
> | 19 | Soft temperature limit has occurred
>
>
> For example if I run 'stress -c 4' then get_throttled gives me:
> throttled=0xe0008
>
> so the temperature limit is in operation and throttling has occurred in the
> past. (this Pi4 has cooling, I can't remember but I think there's a
> heatsink and fan in there)
>
> $ sudo vcgencmd measure_temp
> temp=84.7'C
>
> so it's up near its thermal limit.
>
>>> I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
>>> will keep it at full speed under any load.
>>>
>> I question that it will in fact throttle.
>>
>> Like so much 'everybody knows' when you look at it it is in fact
>> 'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.
>
> 'Everybody knows' because they have evidence, not assertions.
>
>> The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
>> cooling
>
> Everyone's been thermally limited for maybe 15 years, it's just that Arm
> cores have traditionally targeted a lower thermal envelope in devices where
> forced air cooling isn't an option. The way this works is that CPUs work
> until they hit their thermal envelope and then throttle. No popular
> application processor for maybe a couple of decades has been able to power
> all the silicon at once to max performance and stay within the thermal
> budget.
>

I think this thread is lacking precise, clear language, and people are
making false comparisons. Talking about ventilated cases is confusing, I
don't know what a thermal budget is.

There are four points:

1) Passive cases, where the case is a heat sink, are enough to keep a
rPi4 below throttle temperatures, under any load, assuming ambient less
than 35C.

2) With no heatsink at all the rPi4 will throttle under compute
intensive workloads.

3) The rPi4 can perform useful day-to-day tasks without any heatsync,
passive or forced, without throttling. I ran Motioneye, cctv, on mine
for a couple of years before buying a case.

4) Most of us don't use the rPi4 for continuous compute intensive tasks.

There, that should make everyone happy :-)

On 16/04/2024 17:36, Pancho wrote:
> On 16/04/2024 10:59, Theo wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is
>>>> anything other than sitting idle all the time.
>>>>
>>> I am not interested in proof by assertion
>>> I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C
>>
>> You do know that 'top' won't show throttling?  Throttling means the
>> CPU is
>> clocked lower than the maximum frequency to reduce heat generation - top
>> will still show '100%' of CPU (for one core) but that will be 100% of a
>> lower clock speed.
>>
>> cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_cur_freq
>>
>> shows you the current clock of CPU core 0 and:
>>
>> sudo vcgencmd get_throttled
>>
>> will tell you the throttling status:
>>
>>
>> #### get_throttled
>>
>> Returns the throttled state of the system. This is a bit pattern.
>>
>> | Bit | Meaning |
>> |:---:|---------|
>> | 0 | Under-voltage detected |
>> | 1 | Arm frequency capped |
>> | 2 | Currently throttled |
>> | 3 | Soft temperature limit active |
>> | 16 | Under-voltage has occurred |
>> | 17 | Arm frequency capped has occurred |
>> | 18 | Throttling has occurred |
>> | 19 | Soft temperature limit has occurred
>>
>>
>> For example if I run 'stress -c 4' then get_throttled gives me:
>> throttled=0xe0008
>>
>> so the temperature limit is in operation and throttling has occurred
>> in the
>> past.  (this Pi4 has cooling, I can't remember but I think there's a
>> heatsink and fan in there)
>>
>> $ sudo vcgencmd measure_temp
>> temp=84.7'C
>>
>> so it's up near its thermal limit.
>>
>>>> I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
>>>> will keep it at full speed under any load.
>>>>
>>> I question that it will in fact throttle.
>>>
>>> Like so much 'everybody knows'  when you look at it it is in fact
>>> 'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.
>>
>> 'Everybody knows' because they have evidence, not assertions.
>>
>>> The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
>>> cooling
>>
>> Everyone's been thermally limited for maybe 15 years, it's just that Arm
>> cores have traditionally targeted a lower thermal envelope in devices
>> where
>> forced air cooling isn't an option.  The way this works is that CPUs work
>> until they hit their thermal envelope and then throttle.  No popular
>> application processor for maybe a couple of decades has been able to
>> power
>> all the silicon at once to max performance and stay within the thermal
>> budget.
>>
>
> I think this thread is lacking precise, clear language, and people are
> making false comparisons. Talking about ventilated cases is confusing, I
> don't know what a thermal budget is.
>
> There are four  points:
>
> 1) Passive cases, where the case is a heat sink,  are enough to keep a
> rPi4 below throttle temperatures, under any load, assuming ambient less
> than 35C.
>
> 2) With no heatsink at all the rPi4 will throttle under compute
> intensive workloads.
>
> 3) The rPi4 can perform useful day-to-day tasks without any heatsync,
> passive or forced, without throttling. I ran Motioneye, cctv, on mine
> for a couple of years before buying a case.
>
> 4) Most of us don't use the rPi4 for continuous compute intensive tasks.
>
> There, that should make everyone happy :-)
>
>

Mine runs hot because there is a TV hat bolted on top. And a SSD drive
bolted underneath

that pushes up the case internals way more than the Pi does
But it is still happy and unthrottled

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"