On 9/4/2021 5:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 9/4/21 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 9/4/2021 3:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 9/4/21 2:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 9/4/2021 1:15 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 9/4/21 1:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/4/2021 12:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/4/21 1:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/4/2021 12:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He says:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If M enters an infinite loop, then no matter how long we wait,
>>>>>>>>> we can
>>>>>>>>> never be sure that M is in fact in a loop. It may simply be a case
>>>>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>>> very long computation. What we need is an algorithm that can
>>>>>>>>> determine
>>>>>>>>> the correct answer for any M and w by performing some analysis
>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>> machine's description and the input. But as we now show, no such
>>>>>>>>> algorithm exists.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thus he recognized that the issue with a simulating decider would
>>>>>>>>> be it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No he recognized the very obvious issue of using a simulator
>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>> a decider. No one besides me has ever considered a simulating halt
>>>>>>>> decider that examines the simulated execution trace for non halting
>>>>>>>> patterns of behavior.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope, He understood the issues involved. Maybe if you had studied
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> of the field you would know that the limitation of Halt Deciding by
>>>>>>> Simulating are WELL known, and have been shown to be impossible in
>>>>>>> general.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the text that you referenced he was only referring to using a
>>>>>> simulator as a decider. He was not referring to using a simulating
>>>>>> decider that examines the execution trace of the simulation to look
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> non halting behavior patterns.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope, maybe he doesn't explicitly call it that, but his words
>>>>> definitely
>>>>> reference the well known and studied limitation of simulation for halt
>>>>> deciding.
>>>>
>>>> Of course. If you want to tell if an infinite loops halts you sure as
>>>> Hell can't simply wait and see what happens.
>>>>
>>>> It is getting to the point where I am convinced that you are simply
>>>> lying. If you are aware of any source besides me that proposes a
>>>> simulating halt decider that specifically examines the execution trace
>>>> of its simulation to match non-halting behavior patterns of its input
>>>> then PUT UP OR SHUT UP !!!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Most of the stuff I know was pre-internet, so not easy to find.
>>>
>>> Here is one example of a reference to this from a decade ago:
>>> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/27606/detecting-cycles-in-off-line-turing-machines
>>>
>>>
>>> This mentions one of the techniques used for detecting SOME forms of
>>> infinite loops.
>>>
>>> Here is another person needing to solve the halting problem for a
>>> limited case, and was given a few examples of classical methods (like
>>> detecting repeating state) to detect an infinite loop.
>>>
>>> https://try2explore.com/questions/10671161
>>>
>>> And then there is this article on detecting the non-termination of
>>> Turing Machines, to look for solutions to things like the Busy-Beaver
>>> problem:
>>>
>>> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/1273694.1273703
>>>
>>> While not specifically a 'simulating Halt Decider' it is trying to solve
>>> the same basic problem.
>>>
>>>>> Maybe the fact that you refuse to study the field means you
>>>>> don't recognize that, and are dooming yourself to repeating all the
>>>>> mistakes that have been worked through over the century,
>>>>
>>>> PUT UP OR SHUT UP !!!
>>>> PUT UP OR SHUT UP !!!
>>>> PUT UP OR SHUT UP !!!
>>>> PUT UP OR SHUT UP !!!
>>>
>>> Will you now SHUT UP that NO ONE has looked at this before?
>>
>> My original words included to the same extent that I have.
>>
>> None-the-less is seems clear that you now do understand that when Linz
>> referred to a UTM he was only referring to using a UTM as a halt
>> decider, not using a hybrid UTM halt decider that examines the execution
>> trace of its input.
>>
>
> Nope, because I remember when I was in school, it was already
> established that Simulating Halt Deciding did not show much promise as
> there were serious limits as to what you could detect. Linz knew that
> and knew that mentiones in passing that it couldn't know enough to make
> the decision.
>
> Also, since he proved it for ALL Halt deciders, he proved it for
> Simulating Halt Deciders, as those are within the class of Halt
> Deciders, and can't do anything that a 'generic' Halt Decider can't do.
>

None-the-less int main() { H1(P,P); } does correctly report that its
input halts on the basis that H(P,P) does correctly report that its
input never halts.

If you knew the x86 language and software engineering well enough you
would know that the following execution trace of the simulation of P(P)
matches the infinite recursion behavior pattern and you would know that
the infinite recursion behavior pattern is correct.

THAT YOU SIMPLY DON'T KNOW THESE THINGS WELL ENOUGH IS PROVEN BY THE
FACT THAT YOU ALWAYS CHANGE THE SUBJECT INSTEAD OF DIRECT POINTING OUT
ANY ERROR

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:c36
[00000c36][002117ca][002117ce] 55 push ebp
[00000c37][002117ca][002117ce] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00000c39][002117ca][002117ce] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00000c3c][002117c6][00000c36] 50 push eax // push P
[00000c3d][002117c6][00000c36] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000c40][002117c2][00000c36] 51 push ecx // push P
[00000c41][002117be][00000c46] e820fdffff call 00000966 // call H(P,P)

[00000c36][0025c1f2][0025c1f6] 55 push ebp
[00000c37][0025c1f2][0025c1f6] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00000c39][0025c1f2][0025c1f6] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00000c3c][0025c1ee][00000c36] 50 push eax // push P
[00000c3d][0025c1ee][00000c36] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000c40][0025c1ea][00000c36] 51 push ecx // push P
[00000c41][0025c1e6][00000c46] e820fdffff call 00000966 // call H(P,P)
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

This infinite recursion detection criteria are met by the above
execution trace:
(a) P calls H twice in sequence from the same machine address.
(b) With the same parameters: (P,P) to H.
(c) With no conditional branch or indexed jump instructions in the
execution trace of P.
(d) We know that there are no return instructions in H because we know
that H is in pure simulation mode.

>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They can answer some SPECIFIC forms of infinite behavior, but can
>>>>>>> not in
>>>>>>> general.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think part of your problem is that YOU don't understand some of the
>>>>>>> forms that are proven impossible, as shown by your claim that
>>>>>>> 'ALL' of
>>>>>>> the proofs of the Halting Problem are based on this one method,
>>>>>>> which is
>>>>>>> a demonstratably false statement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may be the only one you understand, but it isn't the only one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein