On 01/02/2022 19:44, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:28:29 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>
>> Let me highlight it for you:
>
> The CDC definition does _NOT_ describe injection of "something" which then
> causes your body to create the antigen. It just doesn't.

How else does it "induce immunity" then? It may not be explicit but it
is clear to all but the narrowest of interpretations.

However, this is all moot as definitions can and do change to *reflect
reality* not the other way around.

>>>>> b. This "shot" is _clearly_ not needed by most people (more than 60%).
>>>>
>>>> No different to any other vaccine.
>>>
>>> Chris... the fact you can claim that means you have absolutely zero
>>> comprehension whatsoever of _how_ this shot works once inside your body.
>>>
>>> What "other vaccine", for example, causes your cells to explode
>>
>> The COVID vaccines don't cause cells to explode.
>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8418359/
>>
>> Cells produce the spike protein and then via an MHC-mediated process
>> *present* the antigens on the surface which then raises an immune response.
>> No explosion reqiured.
>
> Chris... I'm not going to call you an idiot because you have likely never
> taken a class in immunology or biochemistry or genetics. As you know, I
> don't bullshit. I have. The cell _always_ dies from being taken over.

Vaccines don't "take over" cells. Do you think they're the Borg or
soemthing...?

Also cells don't explode when they die. They have a very well defined
pathway called apoptosis or "programmed cell death".

The exceptions - there are always exceptions in biology - are cancer and
some viruses (not SARS-CoV-2).

>
> It just does. Here are some of my iPads (look at the date) next to just
> _some_ of my immunology text, OK?
> <https://i.postimg.cc/cJD2dPnY/books03.jpg> Immunology, Biochem, Microbio

Christ! How old are those books? They must be 40 years old, which is
massively out of date. They pre-date the human genome, epigenetics,
modern molecular genetics, transgenetics, PCR, both types of Sanger
sequencing, 2nd and 3rd generation DNA sequencing, cloning, pluripotent
stem cell reprogramming,etc, etc.

Plus all the viral molecular biology that is routine these days.

> Note that I previously showed nospam my basic television books, so my
> education spans the gamut from the biological sciences to engineering.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Dzzkq69w/books02.jpg>

Reading a text book is not an education. Certainly not one that is
closer in age to the discovery of the double helix in 1953 than to today.

> When you have decades of education, Chris - you learn how things work.

I know. I got my PhD 20 years ago...

> Now, do you think that cell lives after its nucleus has been taken over?
> You do?
> Really?

If you'd read the Italian review of COVID vaccines I posted above you'd
know that there's no "take over" of the nucleus.

> Do you think the nucleus isn't an important component of prokaryotic cells?
> Do you think working the ribosomes to death makes the cell live thereafter?

If they get tips, they'll be fine.

> And, when "presenting" the foreign substances, what do you think the humoral
> and innate immunologic recognition of "not self" is going to do to that cell
> which appears foreign to your immune system.

Read the paper above. They raise an antibody response, plus T- and
B-cell mediated immunity. Likely it'll raise macrophages against the
presenting cells and phagocytosis.

>> COVID has killed over 5 million people FFS.
>
> 5 million is too low. 5 million is only 0.06% of the world population.

Do you want more people to die?

> I realize your belief system isn't based on facts, so I ask one question.
> What's 0.2% of the world population, Chris?

Why do you cling so hard to that single number? Where did you even get
it from? The current CDC data has 873,957 deaths from 72,874,041 which
gives a case fatality rate of 1.2%
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

If you daft enough to calculate a crude fatality rate against the whole
population (334m) when it's known not everyone has had COVID then you
get 0.26%. So where is your "fact" from?

As you well know these numbers are not fixed and are dependent on the
stage of the pandemic. They will continue to drop as more and more
people are vaccinated or get immunity via exposure or die from COVID.
At its worst the CFR was >6% in the US and >14% in Italy.
https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

>> See the reference I gave you below.
>
> I read that paper. And more to the point, I _understood_ what it said.
> It _was_ interesting and it implies the infection rate is pretty poor.
> But it had limitations also (as do all papers).
> Note: I have published papers so I know all about how they're done.

Cite? What's your h-index?

>>> The article concluded with the normal list of inaccuracies and further
>>> studies where their goal was to bolster support for contact tracing.
>>
>> Disappointing that you reject evidence so glibly.
>
> I summarized _accurately_ what the paper said.
> You _thought_ it said something else.

You claimed there were inaccuracies when in fact the authors listed
limitations. Not the same thing.

> Your problem is you _hate_ the facts from the CDC so you're trying to
> explain them away using your fear-based belief system. Stop that.

That's not my problem.

>>> To be sure, the shot causes our cells to explode creating one protein, which
>>> itself has been shown in studies to cause appreciable vascular damage in and
>>> of itself, but most people seem to weather that vascular damage quite well.
>>
>> Still wrong.
>
> How many of these textbooks were you trained on in cellular mechanics?
> <https://i.postimg.cc/SN3cbGv0/books08.jpg> Micro, parasitology, immuno

None, thankfully.

>> Who cares about the USA!? Get your blinkers off. This is a global pandemic
>> and requires a global response.
>
> The reason I care about the USA is you get _good_ statistics from the CDC.
> I've already explained why I think the WHO statistics are, um, unreliable.
> And certainly those from China and North Korea and other areas are also.

There are plenty of other sources good quality data. UK, eCDC,
Singapore, South Korea, etc.

>> There are many other vaccines:
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccine
>
> Chris,
> Don't play kindergarten games with me.
>
> There are only two _types_ that are approved...

....in the US. There you are again with your blinkers.

There are eight others approved in at least one country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_COVID-19_vaccine_authorizations

> If you don't know that, then you know even _less_ than most people do.

We have three in the UK.

>>>>> n. That causes your cells to explode after making tons of one spike protein.
>>>>
>>>> Nope. That's what the virus does.
>>>
>>> Chris,
>>> What do you _think_ happens
>>
>> I don't need to think at all. The research has *shown* how the vaccines
>> work and it's not via cytotoxicity.
>
> While I never said that the risk of dying from the shot is high enough to
> worry about, I have read the papers that you apparently have not read.

Such as...?

> The fact is that the spike protein, in and of itself, is toxic to cells.
> You don't _like_ that fact; but it's _still_ a fact nonetheless.

You're at it again. Spouting "facts" with no evidence whatsoever.

> The second fact is that the cells die which I know from _lots_ of education
> in this where I've almost never seen a cell _not_ die once you take over its
> machinery (and yes, I grew tissue cells in my day).

Tissues aren't cells. And for the third time there is no "take over".

> My degrees span the biological and electrical engineering sciences, Chris.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/s2SGzC8H/books07.jpg> Biomedical instrument design

A book is not a degree.

> The cell dies.
> If you can find an article that claims the cell does _not_ die, let me know
> as it's not something people know who aren't trained in tissue cultures.

Cultured cells can die for all sorts of reasons, none of it has anything
to do with vaccines.

>> See my reference above.
>>
>> The virus on the other hand does self-replicate causing the targetted
>> (lung) cells to lyse. This is what causes the viral symptoms of the
>> disease.
>
> WTF?
> What virus?
> No virus known to man can "self replicate" Chris.

Poor choice of words. A virus can replicate itself massively within
targetted cells - via the host cell's normal translation processes -
which causes the symptoms of the disease.

> Half that huge heavy microbiology book in this photo is virology, Chris.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/cJD2dPnY/books03.jpg> Immunology, Biochem, Microbio
>
> However, you don't need a thousand pages of virology textbook, Chris.
> It's on the _first_ page of any virology textbook.
>
>> You're confusing disease with vaccine. Of course they have very different
>> modalities.
>
> You _wish_ I was confusing disease with the shot (it's not a vaccine).
> I'm not.
>
> I know exactly what it is.
> You don't.
>
> Learn to learn from someone who has forgotten in the past fifty years more
> than you'll ever know in your lifetime, Chris.

Unfortunately for you, biological research has advanced far beyond what
you read 50 years ago. I can't even fathom how basic biological research
was like in those days.

>>> And that's _before_ we talk about the B-cells and T-cells which begin to
>>> recognize the "infected" cells as "no longer self" and attack them too.
>>
>> Correct, but you need to get the basics right.
>
> You think I don't have the basics of immunology Chris?
> Seriously?

I'm stating what I see based on the evidence presented to me.

> Now you're just making up excuses for why your belief system is wrong.
>
>>>>> o. That spike protein itself is toxic to your body but it's in low amounts.
>>>>
>>>> Not on its own it isn't.
>>>
>>> Now it's _your_ turn to read a paper, Chris.
>>> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=spike+protein+causes+vascular+damage>
>>> Pick one.
>>
>> Again you're confusing disease with vaccine. The *viral and complete* Spike
>> protein is the primary vector for disease. The vaccines only have an
>> incomplete version of the Spike protein which has none of the effects.
>> Obviously, as we don't want to cause harm with the vaccine.
>
> First off, it's a trimeric spike protein, Chris, but for me to explain to
> you why 3 isn't 1 is too much work given you think the protein is the
> "vector", which is utterly ridiculous.

You might prefer a pretty picture from Nature.
https://media.nature.com/original/magazine-assets/d41586-020-01221-y/d41586-020-01221-y.pdf

>
> The protein is not the vector.
> That's idiotic of you to claim it.

The Spike protein recognises and binds to the ACE2 receptor which then
induces endocytosis of the virus particle. This is the first step or
vector of viral pathogenesis.

> I _know_ you wrote that because nobody on the planet would cut and paste
> that because it doesn't exist since it's an idiotic statement, Chris.
>
> Chris, you are brining a pebble to a knife fight.
> You can't learn from me because you're too stupid.

Your ad hominems are giving yourself away.

<snip incoherent ramblings and more ridiculous pictures of ancient books>