On 4/16/22 1:04 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 11:55 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:36:53 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/16/2022 11:32 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:10:44 UTC+1, richar...@gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/16/22 11:48 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying
>>>>>>>>>>> at an
>>>>>>>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if
>>>>>>>>>>> it will
>>>>>>>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>>>>>>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is
>>>>>>>>>>> dying of
>>>>>>>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and
>>>>>>>>>>> support. It
>>>>>>>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a
>>>>>>>>>> rule, why is
>>>>>>>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate
>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>> threads
>>>>>>>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you
>>>>>>>>>> would prefer
>>>>>>>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
>>>>>>>>>> regardless
>>>>>>>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't
>>>>>>>>>> up to
>>>>>>>>>> me, it is
>>>>>>>>>> your choice.
>>>>>>>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably
>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>>>>>>>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
>>>>>>>>> sometimes he
>>>>>>>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying
>>>>>>>>> that a
>>>>>>>>> Turing
>>>>>>>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes
>>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>>> trollish psychology.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move
>>>>>>>> the tape
>>>>>>>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
>>>>>>>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An
>>>>>>> "even/odd"
>>>>>>> decider
>>>>>>> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself
>>>>>>> as an
>>>>>>> expert on
>>>>>>> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the
>>>>>> meaning of
>>>>>> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this
>>>>>> too is
>>>>>> dishonesty on their part.
>>>>> Nope. You like to use the wrong meaning to words as a way to LIE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15
>>>>>> pages
>>>>>> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified
>>>>>> its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until
>>>>>> space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.
>>>>> Nope, until you actually show it, we assume that you can't because you
>>>>> have shown yourself to be incapable of understanding even these simple
>>>>> things.
>>>>>
>>>>> Welcome to be proved wrong by you actually posting an answer.
>>>>>
>>>> PO's description of the principle on which an even/odd decider could be
>>>> built was corrrect. So he's halfway there and should be capable of
>>>> doing
>>>> the other half, which is actually specifying a machine in some
>>>> language,
>>>> I've suggested a free online simulator.
>>>>
>>>> Now is his big opportunity to triumph over his detractors. For once,
>>>> you will not be able to conclude a post with the word "FAIL".
>>>>
>>>> Let's see if he takes it.
>>> That is like not believing that a brain surgeon can change a bed pan
>>> until you actually see the brain surgeon change the bed pan.
>>>
>> I think you are capable of writing an even/odd decider.  But others
>> maybe don't.
>> I do think you would struggle to extend to more complicated machines,
>> but writing the even/odd decider would be a start. Then you could try
>> something a bit more difficult. It's always the way. No one is let loose
>> as a brain surgeon on his first day at medical school, or even on his
>> first
>> day after medical school, though he might have a good idea of the
>> principles
>> on which brain surgery operates. You start with simple tasks, and, after
>> achieving them successfully, that gives you the basis on which to advance
>> a step.
>
> THIS IS THE ONLY POINT THAT I AM WILLING TO DISCUSS:
> The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
> H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.
>
> EVERY OTHER POINT IS A DISHONEST DODGE.
>

Only if you think it is easy to verify a fact that is false.

Remember this trace that shows the correct simulation of the input that
is given to H(P,P) halting?

On 4/27/21 12:55 AM, olcott wrote:
Message-ID: <Teudndbu59GVBBr9nZ2dnUU7-V2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
> void H_Hat(u32 P)
> {
> u32 Input_Halts = Halts(P, P);
> if (Input_Halts)
> HERE: goto HERE;
> }
>
>
> int main()
> {
> H_Hat((u32)H_Hat);
> }
>
>
> _H_Hat()
> [00000b98](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000b99](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>
[00000b9b](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000b9c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000b9f](01) 50 push eax
> [00000ba0](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000ba3](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000ba4](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> [00000ba9](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> [00000bac](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00000baf](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [00000bb3](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> [00000bb5](02) ebfe jmp 00000bb5
> [00000bb7](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> [00000bb9](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bba](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0035) [00000bba]
>
> _main()
> [00000bc8](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000bc9](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> [00000bcb](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> [00000bd0](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> [00000bd5](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> [00000bd8](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> [00000bda](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bdb](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0020) [00000bdb]
>
> ===============================
> ...[00000bc8][001015d4][00000000](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000bc9][001015d4][00000000](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000bcb][001015d0][00000b98](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> ...[00000bd0][001015cc][00000bd5](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> ...[00000b98][001015c8][001015d4](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][001015c4][00000000](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][001015c4][00000000](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][001015c0][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][001015c0][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][001015bc][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][001015b8][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:b98
> ...[00000b98][00211674][00211678](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][00211674][00211678](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][00211670][00201644](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][00211670][00201644](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0021166c][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0021166c][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][00211668][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][00211664][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> ...[00000b98][0025c09c][0025c0a0](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][0025c09c][0025c0a0](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][0025c098][0024c06c](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][0025c098][0024c06c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0025c094][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0025c094][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][0025c090][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][0025c08c][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

Above decision was from the call the Halts inside H_Hat, deciding that
H_Hat(H_Hat) seems to be non-halting, it then returns that answer and is
processed below:

> ...[00000ba9][001015c4][00000000](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> ...[00000bac][001015c4][00000000](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> ...[00000baf][001015c4][00000000](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> ...[00000bb3][001015c4][00000000](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> ...[00000bb7][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> ...[00000bb9][001015cc][00000bd5](01) 5d pop ebp
> ...[00000bba][001015d0][00000b98](01) c3 ret
> ...[00000bd5][001015d4][00000000](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> ...[00000bd8][001015d4][00000000](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> ...[00000bda][001015d8][00100000](01) 5d pop ebp
> ...[00000bdb][001015dc][00000098](01) c3 ret

SEE IT HALTED!

> Number_of_User_Instructions(39)
> Number of Instructions Executed(26567)