Erholt Rhein <erholtr@pobox.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Oct 2022 21:36:42 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> https://play.google.com/store/search?q=cellular-z
>>
>> The app's author is Zhengzhou CengSan Information Technology Co., LTD.
>> Distressing the readme.cmd file at their Github project site doesn't
>> list anything about their product other than hyperlinks to the Github
>> pages; i.e., no info about their product.
>
> If you want to pay money for open source apps, then that's up to you.
> If you want to reward thievery of open source code, then that's up to you.
> Rather than each of us work alone, why not each of us work together.

Well, you're back to your lie refusing to acknowlege that CZ didn't even
exist when NCI came out. You want to push your agenda regarding
reputation, and I'm not going to participate anymore. Perhaps you
spewed your insult before getting down to where I mention the history of
both app authors, and didn't bother to edit this out before submit.

> You refuse to work together so that we can compare the two apps.
> All you had to do was describe what you paid for that you needed.

I already provided the web page with the feature comparison between the
free and paid versions.

As for why I purchased, that was over 2 years ago, so I don't remember.
Could've been I had been using other apps in their freeware versions,
decided to pay similar to how I use shareware enough to know if I'm
keeping it, and went through the apps list to see what others I want to
buy. If you think $1.99 is costly, you should look at the ParKing
(https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=il.talent.parking.premium)
that costs $6.99, and I paid for it after a year or two of use. As I
recall, I paid to get support for more than 1 car, and perhaps automatic
parking recording using a Bluetooth disconnect from my car (so I didn't
have to manually add a new way point for parking). Yep, I tried some
other parking recorders, but in trialing them found they sucked. Free
doesn't always mean better. Is LibreOffice better than MS 365. No
fucking way, but it's free, and I use it, but periodically run into
limitations, especially in Calc (MS Excel equivalent), that makes be
consider going back to Excel, like the stupidity in LO's workaround for
dynamically sized tables linked to charts that is easy with a drag
handle in Excel. I tried other office suites, but found them lacking.
LO was lacking, but not enough to yet prod me to dole out for MS 365.

By the way, you can still get Windows 10 for free. Just don't register
it, and ignore the watermarking on the desktop (there are workarounds).
The trial of Windows 10 never expires. Did I do that? Nope. My new
build cost around $2600, so the OS cost was trivial. Can I get clothes
for super cheap at Goodwill? Sure, and I did back when I was destitute,
but not now when I can afford the retail stores. Do I like deals? Sure
I do, but not if I'm going to waste more of time in research and
trialing than the cost to buy. Amazing how so many users consider their
time as valueless.

> To do that, all you had to do was install both apps which is what I
> did. Unfortunately, your copycat app crashed on my Pixel.

Oh, here we go again with the deliberately bogus reputation berating.
If anyone copied another, it had to be CZ which wasn't around when NCI
came out. Duh!

I have no interest in the CZ app. NCI does what I need, and a hell of
lot more that I don't yet understand. I'm not writing a review to post
at Youtube, or some other site for the socially needy (Facebook,
Twitter, etc). Unlike you, my time has worth. I don't consider my time
as valueless, especially when I'm not interested in an app that relies
on OpenStreets for its map data source.

>> - Cellular-Z (CZ) has a panel for Wi-Fi stats. Not there for me in
>> Network Cellular Info (NCI).
>
> The open source app has both Wifi and Cellular debugging information.
> Based on what you said, the NCI app does not have both.

Actually I just found wifi data in the NCI app. I find it worthless, so
I accuse NCI of also having feature bloat, just not as much as CZ. An
app to provide information on cellular communications that wastes code
and screen space on wifi connectivity, uh huh. For wifi info, I'd
rather use an app that is specifically designed for that connection
method, like WiFi Analyzer from VREM (open source, free) although I'd
have to research to check if it was best of breed, but I'd only spend
time on research if I actually had a need for that info instead of just
idle curiousity to waste my time. However, if I had wifi problems that
required digging into the technology, I might was a wifi surveying app,
like NetSpot from Etwok.

>> - CZ shows a GPS map of satellites relative to my current location. NCI
>> shows a Google map for the cellular tower to which I'm current
>> connected.
>
> We can work together to double check but I think the open source app
> shows what it thinks is the location based on signal strength.

That would be of dubious value. Signal strength is affected by more
than straight-line unobstructed distance. Just walking down to my
basement is going to raise attenuation of the cell signal. I could see
it showing, and perhaps even recording (as in a log), how signal
strength varies as you move around. The NCI app does that.

> I know this because the open source app doesn't use the Internet (for
> privacy reasons).

From where does it get its map data?

Cellular-Z PRIVACY POLICY
https://hzx0910.github.io/cellular-z/

How do they get that info without an Internet connection? Could be a
problem with Engrisch. "We need" could mean they collect that data, or
perhaps they meant "Our app needs".

> I think the NCI app might be using an Internet lookup.

Not for the GPS data in the signal from the tower, or data obtained from
the phone, like signal strength. Yes, for the Google Maps API they use
to show maps. NCI doesn't use a cell tower database lookup where it has
to download the database from somewhere. You get the GPS coordinates
from the tower, and the coordinates are used in Google Maps. This is
all dynamic, not from stagnant database downloads.

Oh, and the NCI app, if you choose, can monitor signal strength as you
move around for whatever tower it is currently connected. This is
provide a more accurate coverage map than you'll find from any of the
cell carriers. OpenSignal has the same community-driven data update
feature. The logs get uploaded to them, so they can analyze and report
to other users.

Obviously the speed test in both apps require an Internet connection to
use servers for the testing.

> Internet cellular tower lookups are well known to be always wrong.

With NCI, the Google Maps API is used when it draws a map for where is
the tower. I think CZ uses OsmAnd aka OpenStreets. Do they have a
dynamic API to which an app can issue map requests, or do they require
downloading of map data?

OsmAnd (freeware)
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand

OsmAnd+ (payware)
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus

Uffdah! $25, and you thought $2 was pricey for NCI. Obviously the CZ
app is using the free version. I didn't find a free vs paid comparison
web page at http://osmand.net/ to see just what the hell $25 buys more
than in the free version. OsmAnd and OpenStreets are separate entities,
but OsmAnd looks to be the biggest consumer of OpenStreet data. I'm
just guessing CZ uses OpenStreet, but you'd have to check on that to see
if the app declares whose mapping database it uses. I couldn't find out
at the CZ Github site (the Chinese stopped me from investigating
further).

> Since the NCI app crashed on my Pixel, you'll have to work with me to
> say how the NCI app mapped the tower location. Did it use an
> Ineternet lookup?

Yep. It gets the GPS data in the signal from the tower, and sends the
GPS coordinates to the Google Maps API to show a map. It does NOT go
downloading map databases which due to publishing limitations means that
data is always stale.

Oops, I may be wrong on how CZ gets mapping data. From:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API

looks like CZ, if it is using OpenStreet, can use an API to request
mapping data from OpenStreet. That would eliminate lag in updating a
mapping database, but it is still compiled from "contributors" to
OpenStreet who walk around with the app running in the background to
record what the app discovers wherever the user's phone travels. If CZ
uses OpenStreets, I would think it would have an option to do the
environ logging of cell towers and their specs. Maybe CZ didn't go that
way, as the logging has to get uploaded. Again, I cannot perform a
whitepaper comparison of the apps (and they have far too much for me to
waste time learning both in detail) since all docs at CZ's Github site
are in Chinese. I don't want to learn Chinese, either, or keep pasting
into Google Translate (which results in bad translations since
grammatical translation is not the same a linguistic translation to
convert from one language to another).

> If so, that's a strike against it.

Perhaps since maps in NCI are got from Google Maps API. Where does CZ
get its mapping data? Can't be some huge database bundled with the app
to make it huge as it wouldn't fit on most smartphones, and would get
stagnant the moment it got bundled with the app before you even got to
download the app. It has to get the mapping data from somewhere, and
that means an Internet connection for CZ, too.

I use the Here[WeGo]! map app as an alternative to Google Maps. There
have been times when I'm out of range of any cell tower. Google Maps
has its offline maps feature, but it has limitation in size, and you
pick the areas you want saved which means downloads of large files.
Here! can also use offline map databases. Instead of having to draw a
region to snare map data to store offline as in in Google Maps, you
select which regions you want to capture: country, state, city.
Currently I have North America selected. I configured Here! to download
map data only over a wifi connection. Over a cellular data connection
would eat up my quota damn quick. A pisser about Here!'s app GUI is
trying to figure out to get to settings. At one time, I dragged from
the left side of the window to bring in the menu pane. Either they
removed it, or my armor case is blocking my finger from using the last
couple pixels on the left side. Some apps are very tiny for the grab
area of a drag-in pane. I finally got into settings, verified North and
Central America (no just North America) was getting downloaded, and it
eats up 14GB of my 120GB SD card. If I selected all of Africa, Asia,
Australia/Oceania, Europe, North and Central America, and South America,
I'd eat up 53 GB of my SD card. Well, I've got the room, but then I
don't take photos or videos with my phone, and if I did they would stay
on my phone (I'd move them elsewhere). I don't know how long it took
last time to just download the North and Central America database which
was over a wifi connection at home, but it was MANY hours. Not because
of wifi speed, but because they throttle their connections as do many
web sites so all connections get some response. You could let it
connect as you go to get map updates, but you're not always near a cell
tower. The Here! download maps cover a much more huge area than offline
maps you can define in Google Maps, but they lack many of the extras,
like roadside cafes or other POIs (Points Of Interest).

Looks like both CZ and NCI apps use APIs to issue online requests for
map data. Looks like saving huge map databases is not doable for them.
I'm talking about mapping data, not about some cell tower database which
I've never needed to use in NCI. Don't see the point of downloading
cell tower database(s) for stagnant data that is already available in
the signal from the tower, and can be found using online map APIs.

>> If I needed to know which GPS satellites were used for my
>> location (not of the tower's which provides that data in its signal),
>> I use the GPS Status app. However, that's all about GPS location and
>> the satellites used for YOUR position, and nothing to do with cellular
>> communication itself.
>
> The open source app tells you the satellite information in real time.
> Based on what you're saying, I'm assuming the NCI app does not.

I don't need my phone telling me where I am (well, where is the phone).
That would only be of use when trying to find your lost phone. Any map
app will tell you where you are.

If I want to see which satellites were involved in the GPS calculation
for my phone, I use the GPS Status app
(https://play.google.com/store/search?q=gps+status). Neither the CZ nor
NCI app needs to find the GPS coordinates of the tower as that data is
sent by the tower to my phone in the cellular connection. The GPS
coordinates for the cell tower are static, so why would anything
locating its GPS coordinates have to use satellites?

If I need to give someone my latitude and longitude, I use a compass
app. Dump those into Google Maps to see where is that location. The
NCI app will also show latitude and longitude, but only in the map.
Alas, I cannot tap and hold to paste the lat/long data to paste
elsewhere, like into the Google Maps app. Does the CZ app show latitude
and longitude for your phone's location, or just GPS coordinates?

>> NCI tells you the GPS data for the tower that
>> the tower is reporting to the phone.
>
> This is actually impossible. So it's not doing what you think it's
> doing. You were led astray.

You asked about the tower's identifiers. The NCI apps reports MCC, MNC,
TAC. Those don't encode into their computed value the tower's location?

For GSM, the unique IDs are: MCC:MNC and (L/T)AC:CID (for CDMA, they are
SID:NID:BID). Obviously the app is getting that data from the cell
tower, not from some drone you flew over the area. There is a lookup,
but a database is not downloaded to your phone. Coordinates of base
stations are in the Google and Yandex databases. For Google Maps, their
geolocation API does the lookup, and its on-demand, not a database you
retrieve to your phone.

https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geolocation/overview

So, indirectly the tower is sending you its GPS coordinates by sending
you its IDs that are used to locate the tower. I can tell you that I'm
the 4th house on the north side of the street from some intersection,
and that's the same as if I gave you my house number, and visa versa. I
didn't bother looking into how Yandex's geolocation API works. For the
Google geolocation API, the response is latitude and longitude.

You could look at the API as a conversion service, or a database lookup,
whichever floats your boat. With MS 365, you can consider the
subscription price is for MS 365 and you get 1TB of OneDrive quota for
free, or you can consider you bought 1TB of online storage quota and got
MS 365 for free. Either viewpoint gives the same result. Online
conversion service, or online on-demand database lookup. You say
po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to.

> It's well known that no GPS lookup for cell towers exists in the USA that
> is available to the public.
>
> Anything you think is a lookup is based on an amalgamation of user data.
> Which means your app is using the Internet.

So is your CZ app. Again, what mapping data source does CZ use? If
OpenStreets, it should be using their API to request mapping data, not
some huge stagnant database file that gets uploaded to your phone. If
CZ works the latter method to do the GPS to lat/long conversion, yeah,
that would suck.

> You did install the app, didn't you?

Nope. I don't install apps willy nilly just to waste my time in
trialing them, especially with highly technical apps with a very narrow
market for limited need. I just assume CZ is internationalized to use
the charset selected in the OS. However, charset mapping doesn't mean
intelligible words get formed, or the linguistics of one language
(Chinese) are properly transformed to the linguistics of a different
language (English). If you're using English with the CZ app, do you see
recognizable words without biasing by Engrish translation?

> When you installed the free app, why would you have a system language
> set up in Chinese? Please don't blame the tool for your own mistakes.

I don't install apps blindfolded. I research them first. If the app
developer provides little or no documentation, I have to rely on 3rd
party reviews most of which are useless unless they go into the nitty
gritty details of all the features of an app. It can help if reviews
provide comparisons between apps, but I found none for CZ compared to
NCI.

>> NCI shows it is using Google Maps. CZ doesn't identify its map data
>> source.
>
> The open source app map display can show the decibels for each
> historical connection and it can save the tower locations to a csv
> file or a jpeg.

Huh? What does that have to do with where is the source of mapping
data?

As for saving tower locations, is that as the tower IDs, or as them
converted to latitude/longitude?

The comparison page (free vs paid) for NCI mentions exporting as a
feature for both free and paid ("Database export measurements in KML
2.2, MLS Geosubmit v.2, CLF v.3, OpenCellID csv, CMWF database types"),
and the comparison table says free and paid have "Export measurements",
but I've never used it, so I'm not sure where it is. I found in its
settings where I can select the export database type, but not where in
the app I initiate the export.

Okay, a bit more digging and I found:

https://www.m2catalyst.com/manual

which mentions exporting is initiated when viewing the Maps panel, and
tapping on the checkmark button. Not exactly what I would consider a
instinctive icon for an export function. I tapped it, and a downloads
list appeared of which there was an entry of exportable data with a Save
button next to it.

> I don't use the map feature as I don't need to know where my phone thinks
> the tower is since all those net lookups are well known to be inaccurate.
>
> Mine doesn't show any map anyway.
> But the many screenshots on Google Play show what may be an OSM map.

Hmm, the Play Store page for CZ shows a map panel. CZ's maps look like
they're grouped by Slot 1 and Slot 2 (probably to support a dual-SIM
phone), but how to get there isn't clear from their screenshots. Maybe
you select Slot 1 or 2 as the panel (tab) you want to view, and maybe
those "eye" icons get you to the map. In the top navbar of CZ, there
are a padlock, location, speed, and settings icons in order from left to
right. I'd try the 2nd icon that looks like a position tag, like you
see in Google Map when you tap somewhere in a map, with a flat doc
underneath, like it's a pointer to a position on a map.

> Anyway, the best way to find a tower is to call the carrier 611 and
> ask them what you're currently connected to or at least what towers
> are nearby.

I use MVNOs, like Tracfone. You don't get that level of service from
other than a primary cellular carrier. Never used 611 to call my
carrier (Tracfone which doled me out to AT&T, but Tracfone got acquired
by Verizon, so already they're trying to push me to get a new SIM card
for Verizon).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_virtual_network_operator

Tracfone buys in bulk from the major carriers, and resells for less.
You get less service and features with an MVNO, but you also get a
cheaper price. They said the acquisition would not immediately force
all Tracfone users to connect to Verizon, but "not immediately" is
indefinite, and means it will happen someday.

I've never called the 611 number. They do mention sending texts to
611611, like for quota balance info. Supposedly you can text "help" to
611611 to get a list of keywords you can send for other info. Their
short URL took me to https://www.tracfonewirelessinc.com/en/brands/
which has nothing about 611 keywords. Alas, my Internet connection just
went down, so a search on "tracfone 611611 keywords" was un-doable at
the moment. Yep, my cable modem has all its lights out. Got an outage
in my area. I'll have to wait 20 minutes, or more, for the cable model
to get reset and reprovisioned. My phone switched from wi-fi to 4G, so
I'll see if their app lists an outage, or I have to report one via app.
.... Okay, modem reset, and Internet is back. I hate when they do
unscheduled maintanence.

I found https://dsweb.tracfone.com/611611/help/ using a Google search.
Didn't find any keyword sent to Tracfone that would access AT&T's
cellular tower mapping data. I texted "coverage", and got "there was
problem processing your request." So, maybe I do have to call 611, but
I don't know if that connects me to Tracfone (who won't know anything
about AT&T cell tower locations) or to AT&T (who will push me off
because I'm not their customer).

Calling the actual carrier is useless. I'm using an MVNO (Tracfone) who
assigned me to AT&T as the carrier. If I call AT&T tech support, they
won't help because I am not their customers. Tracfone will avert
responsibility by saying they're not the carrier, and cannot get that
information.

>> - CZ present other wi-fi data, like device names, IP address, dBm, DNS
>> server, etc, but again what has that to do with *cellular*
>> communication? That's just feature bloat.
>
> You paid for less features and then you complain about getting many more
> features for free? That is not a sensible position for you to be taking.

I also don't need a cellular information app telling me what is the room
temperature, or the compass direction my phone is pointing. Note: I did
mention NCI also has this feature bloat after I re-reviewed the app
(there's a lot of it I don't use).

I didn't pay for fewer features. I paid to get more, but it's been
since Jan 2020 when I bought the app. I didn't add an entry to my diary
as to why a purchased. I don't keep a diary as half my life would be
recording the other half of my life. I'm not going to concern myself
with the "strife" of paying $2 for a paid version of an app.

>> - I don't see CZ offers a signal tracking feature to report in which
>> areas coverage is low or zero, like OpenSignal's signal tracking
>> feature. For both NCI and OpenSignal, you need to leave the apps
>> running in the background, so they can record signal strength and
>> upload the data to their servers to have them track actual coverage
>> rather than what the carriers claim.
>
> The open source app has an "auto save" feature which can save in json
> or csv at user settable time intervals of 1 minute, 2 minutes, and 5
> minutes.

Guess that might be important to you if you were maintaining a database
of locations, signal strength, and so on regarding cellular coverage.
I'm not interested in building my own coverage map. In fact, I don't
even participate in M2Catalyst's, OpenSignal's, or other services
services to build a collective of user reports to view actual coverage.
If I were to log coverage and tower locations, I'd push it upstream to
their server, and let them figure out all the statistics. So, while NCI
(and OpenStreetsMap) have the logging function, it's superfluous to me.
I only mentioned it when comparing some features between CZ and NCI.

>> Also remember that I said I had used NCI for a couple years before
>> deciding to pay for it.
>
> You wasted your money.
> You paid for less when you could have obtained more for free.
> It's your money.

Sorry, buy despite your viewpoint, I don't see that paid for less.
Where were you when I was trying to find a cellular info app? What is
my time worth to go beyond the research that I already did?

Also, I bought the NCI app in Jan 2020. I also mentioned that I had
been using their free version for a couple years earlier. I'm not sure
when I chose an app that CZ was even a choice back then.

> Just don't try to justify paying for less as being a logical decision.
> It's a dumb decision if you ask me.
>
>> If $2 if so extreme a cost to you,
>> keep using the freeware stuff.
>
> Every time some asshole like you seem to be justifies their dumb decisions
> by claiming everyone else is too cheap to waste their money on garbage,
> they use that stupid argument you just made.

And everytime I hear someone proslytizing about FOSS, or just freeware,
and a better choice is a deaf orator on their soapbox spewing free is
better.

> You made a stupid decision.
> And that's OK.

Same could be argued about your choice. Your berating retorts really
make you sound like your qualifying your decision. You decided one way,
and feel the need to defend it. Back when I made my decision, I never
heard of CZ, and obviously didn't find it as an alternative to trial
back then.

Hindsight is wonderful. It make you the perfect wizard regarding
expertise.

> Live with it.
> Don't call me cheap because I don't make stupid decisions like you do.

Hmm, I don't recall calling you a cheapskate. I use freeware, too, but
sometimes even after using it I decide to later go with payware.

> Own your own stupidity and misplaced hubris.
> Apologize or this conversation is over.

Sorry, this conversation ended when you falsely accuse M2Catalyst (and
formerly Wilysis) of stealing code from CZ before CZ even existed. Own
your own stupidity!