On 8/17/2022 11:57 AM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 12:55:38 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/17/2022 11:25 AM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 12:19:51 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/17/2022 11:06 AM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:55:36 AM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/17/2022 10:35 AM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:24:34 AM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/17/2022 9:51 AM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 10:23:17 AM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/17/2022 6:40 AM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 12:28:52 AM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2022 11:02 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 11:57:51 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2022 10:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 11:39:32 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2022 10:23 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 11:18:46 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2022 9:52 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 10:47:57 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2022 9:34 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 10:12:55 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2022 8:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/22 9:20 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2022 8:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/22 10:27 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2022 9:07 AM, Skep Dick wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 16 August 2022 at 15:55:30 UTC+2, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The correct and complete x86 emulation of the input to H(P,P) by H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WOULD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never stop running.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like you are stuck in a loop.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe your Decider/Maker should terminate you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been trying to get an honest person to acknowledge the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct software engineering of my system so that we can move on to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next point for a year now. (bot many honest people here, mostly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trolls).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem is that what you say ISN'T CORRECT software engineering.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You use the wrong definition of things and incorrect assumptions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about thing, so it just isn't true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P) does correctly predict that its correct and complete x86
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation of its input would never stop running, thus does correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reject this input as non-halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. And in fact, you even acknoldge it doesn't but just don't see it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the correct and complete x86 emulation by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P) of its input WOULD STOP RUNNING?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I am saying that you H doesn't do a correct and complete emulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of its input, and thus to say it did is just a LIE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I said that H correctly predicts what the behavior of its correct and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete x86 emulation of H(P,P) would be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fixed source code of H (and everything it calls) that aborts is Ha. Ha *always* aborts Pa, so "the correct and complete simulation of Ha(Pa,Pa)" does not exist, just like the shoes that Napoleon wore on Mars do not exist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you are another brain dead moron the believes it is utterly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible for H to correctly predict that its correct and complete x86
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation of its input would never stop running unless H actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> performed a correct and complete emulation of its input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The correct and complete emulation of Ha(Pa,Pa) doesn't exist,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neither does the correct and complete emulation of Infinite_Loop()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes it does. If you simulate Infinite_Loop(), it won't halt. But if you run Ha(Pa,Pa), it won't do a correct and complete simulation because it aborts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you run H0((u32)Infinite_Loop)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "it won't do a correct and complete simulation because it aborts"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How long are you going to keep the head game up?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That you don't understand what I'm saying doesn't make it a head game.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You reject Ha(Pa,Pa) on this basis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run Ha(Pa,Pa), it won't do a correct and complete simulation because it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aborts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet accept P0(Infinite_Loop), on the same basis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it won't do a correct and complete simulation because it aborts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∴ You are playing head games.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does P0 do? Does it abort? If so, then yes P0(Infinite_Loop) doesn't do a correct and complete simulation because it aborts, so it's invalid to predict what the correct and complete simulation of P0(Infinite_Loop) would do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, UTM(Infinite_Loop) does do a correct and complete simulation, so it *is* valid to predict what it will do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words you are not bright enough to see that it is very easy for
>>>>>>>>>>>> H0 to recognize an infinite loop would never halt in a finite number of
>>>>>>>>>>>> steps of simulation?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm saying that H0 can see that the correct and complete simulation performed by UTM(Infinite_Loop) does not halt. It does not and cannot see that the correct and complete simulation performed by H0(Infinite_Loop) (i.e. your basis for correctness) does not halt because H0 does not perform a correct and complete simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is what I mean by H evaluating what its correct and complete
>>>>>>>>>> simulation of its input would be:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> void P(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>> int Halt_Status = Simulate(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>> if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>> HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>> return;
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Although H itself does not perform a correct and complete simulation of
>>>>>>>>>> non-halting inputs H does correctly predict that such a simulation would
>>>>>>>>>> never halt.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You changed the input from Pa to Pn.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So you're again saying that Ha(Pa,Pa) reports the halt status of the non-input Pn(Pn) instead of Pa(Pa) as it is required to:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> H0(Infinite_Loop)
>>>>>>>> reports on Simulate(Infinite_Loop)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> H(Infinite_Recursion, 0x777)
>>>>>>>> reports on Simulate((Infinite_Recursion, 0x777)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In every case a simulating halt decider reports on what the behavior of
>>>>>>>> its simulated input would be if this SHD was swapped for a simulator.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And in the case of Ha(Pa,Pa) you change the input in doing so which is not allowed. Remember, what is being decided on is the FIXED source code of Pa and everything it calls, which includes the FIXED source code of Ha and everything it calls.
>>>>>> THIS JUST SEEMS OVER YOUR HEAD.
>>>>>> H correctly determines that its input would never halt by correctly
>>>>>> predicting that its input would never halt if H never aborted its
>>>>>> simulation of this input.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is not what it is required to do if it claims to be a halt decider:
>>>>>
>>>>> For *any* algorithm X and input Y:
>>>>> H(X,Y)==1 if and only if X(Y) halts, and
>>>>> H(X,Y)==0 if and only if X(Y) does not halt
>>>>>
>>>> This is based on the false assumption that the actual behavior of the
>>>> actual input is the same behavior as X(Y).
>>>
>>> FALSE, because it is the behavior of the direct execution that is being asked about.
>> So you disagree that every decider must base its decision on a semantic
>> or syntactic property of its input?
>>
>> In other words you are asserting that a decider must base its decision
>> on a semantic or syntactic property of a non-input?
>
> You're the one asserting that, as you think that Ha(Pa,Pa) should be reporting the halt status of Pn(Pn):
>

H is reporting on the behavior that these machine language bytes
specify:
558bec518b4508508b4d0851e8bffeffff83c4088945fc837dfc007402ebfe8be55dc3

_P()
[00000fc2](01) 55 push ebp
[00000fc3](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00000fc5](01) 51 push ecx
[00000fc6](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00000fc9](01) 50 push eax
[00000fca](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000fcd](01) 51 push ecx
[00000fce](05) e8bffeffff call 00000e92
[00000fd3](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00000fd6](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
[00000fd9](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
[00000fdd](02) 7402 jz 00000fe1
[00000fdf](02) ebfe jmp 00000fdf
[00000fe1](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
[00000fe3](01) 5d pop ebp
[00000fe4](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0035) [00000fe4]

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer