On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
(in article <op.1gvulhdemvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):

> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:52:26 -0000, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>
> > On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
> > (in article <op.1gvn32zkmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
> >
> > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 02:35:41 -0000, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 2022 Jan 30, Commander Kinsey wrote
> > > > (in article <op.1gt7q7ovmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 01:49:00 -0000, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 2022 Jan 30, Commander Kinsey wrote
> > > > > > (in article <op.1gt5zbmtmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, I only found this out from a pirate website, Microsoft don't bother
> > > > > > > telling you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your computer will not get a Windows 11 upgrade unless you have enabled
> > > > > > > TPM
> > > > > > > (trusted platform module) in your computer's BIOS. Most computers have
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > switched off.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you’re very late to the party.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. MS _does_ tell people. The requirement for a TPM was clear from the
> > > > > > first
> > > > > > announcements. MS went so far as to set up a page on their site.
> > > > > > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/windows-11-requiremen
> > > > > > ts
> > > > > > and this page was the very first hit in a search for ‘hardware
> > > > > > requirements
> > > > > > win 11”. Note the date on the page: 30 Nov 2021. Oh. Wait.
> > > > > > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-system-requiremen
> > > > > > ts
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > the 3rd hit in that search. That page dates from August... The second
> > > > > > hit
> > > > > > also cites the requirement for a TPM, but is undated. All three of the
> > > > > > first
> > > > > > 3 hits are from MS. Did you actually do a search?
> > > > >
> > > > > Why would I do that?
> > > >
> > > > so that you could find out information about the OS prior to doing an
> > > > update.
> > >
> > > Uh, I just press "install" when one appears. I don't research them.
> >
> > that’s a bad idea. In the past MS OS updates have broken hardware,
> > including but not limited to printers, scanners, assorted USB devices
> > including cell data network cards, 802.11 wireless cards, and Ethernet cards
> > (you may be detecting a theme...) and video cards. And, in one memorable
> > instance, sound cards. Just installing runs the risk of hardware not
> > working.
> > MS OS updates have also broken software, including software from Adobe,
> > Quark, and even MS themselves. This especially applies to installers;
> > notoriously MS Office 2003 worked on Win 8 and up, but its installer had
> > problems.
>
> I've owned about 20 machines, made about 100 machines, and been responsible
> for repair/upgrade/installation of about 5000 machines. Not once has any of
> the above happened. Perhaps it's something stupid you're doing?

nope. I had, for example, a HP inkjet printer which worked with Win XP and
Mac Tiger. When Vista and Leopard arrived, it didn’t work. I contacted HP.
They said that that printer wasn’t supported on XP and Leopard, that both
MS and Apple had changed their printing setups (lie; MS had, Apple hadn’t)
and recommended buying a new printer. I did. A Brother laser. Which still
works. And works with XP, as well.

Also, I had an Epson scanner which shipped with OCR software. The OCR
software broke on Win 7; Epson said that I needed to contact the people they
got the software from; they had a non-OEM version, which would work... but
they wanted money. I paid for OCR software from a different source. Still
works.

The sound card broke with Win XP SP3. Apparantly the drivers had a problem.
it took the vendors six months to kick compatible drivers out the door.
>
>
> BTW, hardware doesn't break with software.

It does if the drivers don’t work.
>
>
> > > > > I was waiting for it to appear in Windows Update. I have
> > > > > 7 PCs. I've only seen it mentioned on the 2 oldest ones, which said "not
> > > > > compatible" - not sure if that's the TPM or because they're old.
> > > >
> > > > probably part of the other hardware requirements, which you’d know about
> > > > if
> > > > you looked. Odds are that they have CPUs older than 8th gen. Machines with
> > > > CPUs older than 8th gen won’t install Win 11... unless you pull a trick.
> > > > All of my WinBoxes have CPUs which are too old. I could force the install,
> > > > but I won’t be installing an OS onto unsupported hardware.
> > >
> > > No idea what "8th gen" refers to. I have a Ryzen 9 3900XT, an i5 8600K,
> > > and 5
> > > very old things.
> >
> > 8th gen is the year that CPU was introduced. The i5 8600K is 8th gen, you
> > can
> > tell because its name starts with 8. A 8600K will probably be able to run
> > Win
> > 11, if the other hardware requirements (TPM 2, enough RAM, enough disk/SSD,
> > good enough video) are met. AMD doesn’t make things quite as easy to tell;
> > I think that a Ryzen 3900XT is 3rd gen, but Win 11 wants 4th gen so that one
> > may not work.
>
> I bought it one year ago brand new FFS. So M$ made an OS that needs an AMD
> newer than 1 year old?!
>
> Oh wait, you're entirely wrong.
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/win
> dows-11-supported-amd-processors

Cool. So you can use the Ryzen. You did notice the phrase ‘I think’ and
the phrase ‘may not work’, didn’t you?
>
>
> > > > > > 2. It’s not the TPM that’s the problem; my main WinBox has a TPM,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > won’t run Win 11 because it has TPM 1.2 and Win 11 requires TPM 2.0 or
> > > > > > later. (Yes, I know, there’s a way around that requirement. I don’t
> > > > > > feel
> > > > > > like forcing installation of an OS, of all things, onto unsupported
> > > > > > hardware.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Does the way around involve buying a TPM chip?
> > > >
> > > > that’s one way.
> > >
> > > Not spending money just to get 11.
> >
> > me either.
>
> Neither.
>
> > > > There’s also a way to play with the BIOS. And a way to
> > > > edit the installer script so that it doesn’t look for TPM 2.0. And
> > > > probably
> > > > other methods. There are a _lot_ of idiots who absolutely, positively,
> > > > MUST
> > > > run Win 11 and will go to considerable lengths to get past any roadblocks
> > > > MS
> > > > puts in the way. Me, I say that my WinBoxes will stay with 10, or earlier,
> > > > until they stop working. Unless I just reformat them and slap Ubuntu on
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > I would like 11 as long as it doesn't fuck something up. If it's just a
> > > matter of stopping it checking, and the OS will run ok with no TPM, then
> > > I'll
> > > do that.
> >
> > it’ll install. it’s not supported, so it might not get updates, and it
> > might stop working for any reason or no reason at all, with or without
> > warning. And if you complain to MS, they’ll point out that you installed
> > on
> > unsupported hardware.
> >
> > I’m not going to install an OS onto unsupported hardware.
>
> No updates wouldn't bother me. Stopping working would. But if all I've
> bypassed is security, that shouldn't stop it working surely?

don’t know. not going to find out the hard way.
>
>
> > > In fact the older machines only run one program with no important data
> > > (it's
> > > all held on servers), so I can break something without much headache.
> >
> > i’d be careful.
>
> Why? They only have Windows, AVG, Boinc, and the last 6 hours of data
> crunched.

if you want to chance it, go for it. I’ll watch.

>
>
> > > > > If not, let me know what I can
> > > > > do. One of my PCs is old enough to use DDR2.
> > > > >
> > > > > > 3. Having the TPM turned on is very common in the corporate world. And
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > those who want to run BitLocker encryption. If you don’t have TPM 1.2
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > later, running BitLocker becomes... annoying.
> > > > >
> > > > > But most people have home machines
> > > >
> > > > lots of gamers use systems which need TPMs.
> > >
> > > Games don't need TPM!
> >
> > the DRM for some of them does.
>
> Not if you "buy" it in the right place.

no comment.
>
>
> > > > And there are a _lot_ of corp
> > > > machines. An awful lot of ‘education’ systems have TPMs, as well. Odds
> > > > are excellent that the majority of WinBoxes have TPMs on.
> > >
> > > Why would you get TPM for education?
> >
> > When you’re the network admin for a school with a few hundred or a few
> > thousand machines, you want all the leverage you can get. Your typical urban
> > high school will have hundreds of computers; your typical community college
> > will have thousands. (Miami-Dade College is the largest higher-ed school in
> > the US; prior to the pandemic it had over 174,000, that’s One Hundred and
> > Seventy Four Thousand, students, and a Whole Lot of staff.) MS sells an
> > Education edition of Windows; it’s basically Enterprise, slightly cheaper,
> > for schools. And like Enterprise, it likes TPMs. Machines intended for the
> > ‘education’ market are aimed at the same basic spec as machines aimed
> > for
> > the ‘corporate’ market; high-school and earlier being at the low end.
>
> I worked in a school with 1100 pupils and 100 staff. There were about 400
> computers. I never saw "education" on the Windows I installed, but I assume
> they used the cheapest. The council bought them (if I remembered to tell them
> I needed more licenses....), I just installed them. But that was back in 2011.

They may have just used Home or Pro, not Education. Home’s cheaper. Pro at
least allows Active Directory. Which assumes that they shelled out for AD. I
have WinServer 2008 R2 and 2012, Education editions, free courtesy of MS
Dreamspark/Imagine (MS changed the name from Dreamspark to Imagine. MS loves
to change names while doing SFA else). Sooner or later I’ll get around to
moving to WinServer 2019 Education, also free from Imagine. Or I’ll just
junk AD at home and go Linux server, probably Ubuntu.