In message <a543aipck8br5nvm2livqj7h126iqvdjv4@4ax.com> at Sun, 2 Jul
2023 08:01:15, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>From: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>Subject: Re: YouTube downloads fail all the time
>Newsgroups:
>alt.comp.software.firefox,alt.windows7.general;alt.comp.os.Windows-11
>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
>
>>I've added alt.comp.os.Windows-11 to the newsgroups cross-posted to.
>
>I screwed up doing that, so I'm reposting
>
I assume the nasty person came from there )-:. We're nicer in 7 (-:
[]
>>>backup drives that are being backed up by Bart and instead use it to
>>>backup an image (or clone? Is one a better choice than the other?) of
>>
>>Each has its advantages. If it's a clone, assuming it's been made
>>correctly and whatever takes out your C: drive doesn't also take out the
>>drive you're cloning to (that of course is a concern for imaging too!),
>>then in the event, you can just switch the drivers over and be back up
>>in minutes
>
>Yes, but only if you've cloned to an internal drive.
>
>However that wouldn't be the case for me, since my drive is an M2 SSD
>and I would clone it to a spinner. I'd want to keep C: on the M2. The
>M2 and spinners are also two different sizes.
>
>So if I cloned it and C: died, I would need/want to copy the clone

In that case, I can see no point in cloning rather than imaging; if you
need something to copy it back, rather than just physically swapping
drives, then I can't see any advantage in cloning.

>back to the M2. How would I do that? Does the free Macrium come with a
>bootable utility that can do that? How about the part-of-the-OS
>utility? Can it do that?
>
Can't speak for the latter (someone said don't use it anyway), but
Macrium free does - sort of. The first time you run it (and the option
remains on subsequent runs), it offers you the option to make bootable
medium - I think it can make a bootable USB stick, but I make a CD. Up
to Macrium 6 at least, it will fit on a mini-CD, so I use one of those -
I like mini-CDs.
>
>
>
>> - the mechanical work of opening the case and fiddling with
>>the connectors and screws probably taking longer than anything else. If
>>imaging, you need to have/obtain the replacement drive, _and_ have
>>something to boot from (CD or USB) that has the necessary software on it
>>(Macrium, Bart?,
>
>No, Bart doesn't do that. It does nothing but just copy files; that's
>fine for D:'s data files, but not for C:. I like Bart because it
>starts with the previous backup, adds any new files, replaces any
>changed files, and deletes any files no longer on the drive being
>backed up. The result is that it's very fast.

Ah. Sounds identical to what SyncToy claims to do (in one of its three
modes).
>
>>the Windows one) to restore from the image. Conversely,
>>you can probably have a lot more images on most drives these days,
>
>
>But not clones, since they would be the full size of the drive, not
>the size of just the used space?
>
Sort of. Another has said good cloning software only copies the used
parts, so the actual process might be quicker, but the main difference
is that a true clone is a drive you can just physically swap in and go,
so it can't really have other things on it.
>
>>especially if you keep your C: partition small
>
>It's a 1TB partition with about 100GB used.
>
>I've never imaged or cloned before, so I'm a beginner when it comes to
>this. Am I right that an image would take up 100GB, but a clone would
>take up 1TB? If so, I think, an image would be the better choice for
>me (see below where I talk about keeping multiple generations).

I think so. Macrium free - and probably most other similar - offers
compression (choosable - I know there's at least "none" and "medium", I
think there are others), for images at least, so they could be less than
the 100GB.
>
>I would image it to a 2TB spinner.
>
>
>>you could even have
>>images for the C: partition of several different machines on it; whereas
>>if cloning, it's obviously just one drive.
>
>
>There's just one machine I'd want to image or clone--my desktop. My
>wife is no longer able to use her desktop, and I have no laptop.
>
>I'd want to have it done with a batch file that would delete the
>current image or clone, and make a new one. Or better, maybe delete
>the one that's two generations old, rename the one that's one
>generation old, and create a new one.

Macrium free has the option of deleting the oldest if there's less than
(I think) 5% free. IIRR, that's the default way it operates.
>
>Or considering that the spinner is so much larger than the 100GB used
>for C:, perhaps I could have the batch file keep the three or four
>most recent backups.

See above.
>
>And I'd like to have that bat file scheduled to run automatically at
>night once every week or so.

Ah, that'd mean using the version (of Macrium) that runs from within
Windows; I know nothing of that. That version may even have automatic
scheduling options - why not get it and have a play? (It isn't two
different downloads: what you download is the version that runs within
Windows; there's a menu option within that to make the bootable medium
that has the run-from-CD version on it.)
>
>So given my situation, what do you (or anyone else here) think would
>be the better choice for me--image or clone?
>
Definitely image. If you're never going to physically put the drive
you've been saving to in and boot from it, there's no advantage (that I
can see, anyway) in cloning to it.
[]
>>easier - plus, I feel a slight greater ease in having something other
>>than the OS do it.
>
>Just curious, why?

Just a feeling - I like having something completely separate from the
OS, back up the OS. (Not _quite_ a mistrust of Microsoft, since what
boots - from the CD in my case - and then runs Macrium from the CD, _is_
I think a version of Windows.)
>
>> Although I always do my imaging (I image rather than
>>clone)
>
>Just curious, why?
>
As discussed already - I'm imaging to an external drive, which I would
restore to a new internal one if the internal one broke - and, I can
keep more than one image.
>
>>by booting from the Macrium CD, Macrium _can_ run (at least the
>>imaging/cloning part; obviously not the restoring!) from within Windows.
>>(I don't, as I feel uneasy backing up a running system.)
>
>Just curious, why? Is there a risk in doing that that I'm not aware
>of?

I'm pretty sure Macrium (and the other similar utilities) have got past
the problems. I just don't feel secure asking, in effect, a running
system to back itself up while actually running. (There probably are
_tiny_ risks, probably not a worry in practice: I expect Paul could
elucidate.)
>
>> I'm pretty sure
>>the part-of-the-OS utility can be run from within Windows too.
>
>Can some who knows "the part-of-the-OS utility" for Windows 11 jump in
>here and provide some more information? What's its name? Can it be run
>from within Windows? How does it compare to Macrium Reflect? Can it do
>either an image or a clone? Given my situation described about, which
>would be a better choice for me--Macrium Reflect or the part-of-the-OS
>utility.

If the person who said don't use it is wrong, then obviously it would
avoid the extra step of downloading Macrium, and making the boot CD (or
USB). Although to be usable in the case of disaster, you'd _still_ need
a bootable something: I believe the Windows 7 install DVD can be used as
a "rescue disc" of this sort, but do you actually have such a DVD? (If
not, I _think_ there's a means of making a "rescue disc" in the OS,
though not sure. I looked into the built-in mechanism and found it more
complicated to understand, but that might just be a matter of lack of
familiarity.
>
>Again, I'm a newbie when it comes to imaging and cloning, so I would
>greatly appreciate any additional help from you, John, or anyone else
>here who knows more about this than I do,

All I know is Macrium, and only using that - both for imaging and
restoring-from-image - by booting from its CD. FWIW, Macrium 5 (so I
presume 6) worked up to some version of Windows 10, but after some point
(of W10's self-updating) it wouldn't, and you had to use Macrium 7.
Which wouldn't fit on a mini-CD - I can't remember if it needed a DVD,
or just a full-sized CD. Certainly, when booting from it, 7 takes a LONG
time - many minutes - to load the OS (cut-down Windows), to the extent
that I thought it had crashed the two times I used it: the system seems
to freeze. 5 and 6 are slowish (compared to a normal Windows boot from
HD or SSD), but at least there's a progress bar and they don't take
_that_ long.
>
>>>
>>>Yes, an internal drive for backup isn't as safe as an eternal drive,
>>>but as far as I'm concerned, that's much more important for data files
>>>than for C: If I lost all my data files on D, that would be a
>>>catastrophe, but if I lost everything on C: without a backup, it would
>>>be a pain in the ass (arse), but I'd survive.
>>
>>I often hear US folk talking about their tax affairs in this respect,
>>and I understand. (The _majority_ of UK folk - certainly those employed
>>by an employer - don't _do_ tax returns most years.)
>
>My taxes have become much more complicated in recent years. I used to
>do it myself with TurboTax, but I now have an accountant do it for me.
>But I do need my Quicken files to supply data for the accountant,
>
I haven't done a tax return since my employer was taken over and the
employee share option scheme had to be terminated early, or something
like that, thus complicating matters; I _think_ that was about 2000.
(Well, I did it for a year or two after that - once they've got you onto
their system as doing returns, they expect you to continue to; I
eventually wrote to them saying basically "I'm back to being an ordinary
Joe with an employer and just a few share dividends below the threshold
- can I go back to being a normal taxpayer", and they agreed. [I suspect
not just for my benefit: obviously if I continued doing them, someone at
the tax office had to process them.])
[]
>Yes, of course. I understand that. I was simply pointing out why I
>wouldn't find it a hobby of any interest. I don't want to start
>finding third cousins and introducing myself to them.

Maybe you have another data-intensive hobby? Or just your tax details.
>
>My paternal grandparents must have seen me when I was an infant, but I
>have no memory of ever meeting them; my parents were divorced when I
>was two. I didn't even know their names until a friend who was an
>expert in genealogy found them for me .I didn't even know how to spell
>"genealogy" before then.

Yes, it's an anomaly - -alogy rather than the more usual -ology. (-:
[]
(There is a _minor_ benefit to at least knowing your biological ancestry
to maybe two or three generations, at least for some people: genetic
diseases. Including ones that aren't known about yet.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A man is not contemptible because he thinks science explains everything, and a
man is not contemptible because he doesn't. - Howard Jacobson, in Radio Times
2010/1/23-29.