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devel / comp.infosystems.gopher / Re: Splitting The Web

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Splitting The Webimmibis
+* Re: Splitting The Webcr0c0d1le
|+* Re: Splitting The WebD
||`* Re: Splitting The WebAnton Shepelev
|| +* Re: Splitting The WebHelmut Richter
|| |`* Re: Splitting The WebD
|| | `* Re: Splitting The WebHelmut Richter
|| |  +* Re: Splitting The WebAndy Burns
|| |  |`- Re: Splitting The Webimmibis
|| |  `- Re: Splitting The WebD
|| `* Re: Splitting The WebD
||  `* Re: Splitting The Webcr0c0d1le
||   `- Re: Splitting The WebD
|`- Re: Splitting The WebComputer Nerd Kev
`* Re: Splitting The WebIanJ
 +- Re: Splitting The Weboldernow
 +- Re: Splitting The Webcr0c0d1le
 +- Re: Splitting The Webimmibis
 `* Re: Splitting The WebD
  +* Re: Splitting The WebHelmut Richter
  |`- Re: Splitting The WebD
  +* Re: Splitting The WebIanJ
  |`- Re: Splitting The WebD
  `* Re: Splitting The WebRayner Lucas
   `- Re: Splitting The WebD

1
Re: Splitting The Web

<um6ds8$218nh$6@dont-email.me>

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From: new...@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gemini,comp.infosystems.gopher,comp.infosystems.www.misc,comp.misc
Subject: Re: Splitting The Web
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:47:36 +0100
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 by: immibis - Sat, 23 Dec 2023 10:47 UTC

On 12/22/23 18:47, Ben Collver wrote:
> # Splitting the Web by Ploum on 2023-08-01
>
> There's an increasing chasm dividing the modern web. On one side, the
> commercial, monopolies-riddled, media-adored web. A web which has
> only one objective: making us click. It measures clicks, optimises
> clicks, generates clicks. It gathers as much information as it could
> about us and spams every second of our life with ads, beep,
> notifications, vibrations, blinking LEDs, background music and
> fluorescent titles.
>
> A web which boils down to Idiocracy in a Blade Runner landscape, a
> complete cyberpunk dystopia.
>
> Then there's the tech-savvy web. People who install adblockers or
> alternative browsers. People who try alternative networks such as
> Mastodon or, God forbid, Gemini. People who poke fun at the modern
> web by building true HTML and JavaScript-less pages.
>
> Between those two extremes, the gap is widening. You have to choose
> your camp. When browsing on the "normal web", it is increasingly
> required to disable at least part of your antifeatures-blockers to
> access content.
>
> Most of the time, I don't bother anymore. The link I clicked doesn't
> open or is wrangled? Yep, I'm probably blocking some important
> third-party JavaScript. No, I don't care. I've too much to read on a
> day anyway. More time for something else. I'm currently using
> kagi.com as my main search engine on the web. And kagi.com comes with
> a nice feature, a "non-commercial lens" (which is somewhat ironic
> given the fact that Kagi is, itself, a commercial search engine). It
> means it will try to deprioritize highly commercial contents. I can
> also deprioritize manually some domains. Like facebook.com or
> linkedin.com. If you post there, I'm less likely to read you. I've
> not even talked about the few times I use marginalia.nu.
>
> Something strange is happening: it's not only a part of the web which
> is disappearing for me. As I'm blocking completely google analytics,
> every Facebook domain and any analytics I can, I'm also disappearing
> for them. I don't see them and they don't see me!
>
> Think about it! That whole "MBA, designers and marketers web" is now
> optimised thanks to analytics describing people who don't block
> analytics (and bots pretending to be those people). Each day, I feel
> more disconnected from that part of the web.
>
> When really needed, dealing with those websites is so nerve breaking
> that I often resort to... a phone call or a simple email. I signed my
> mobile phone contract by exchanging emails with a real person because
> the signup was not working. I phone to book hotels when it is not
> straightforward to do it in the web interface or if creating an
> account is required. I hate talking on the phone but it saves me a
> lot of time and stress. I also walk or cycle to stores instead of
> ordering online. Which allows me to get advice and to exchange
> defective items without dealing with the post office.
>
> Despite breaking up with what seems to be "The Web", I've never
> received so many emails commenting my blog posts. I rarely had as
> many interesting online conversations as I have on Mastodon. I've
> tens of really insightful contents to read every day in my RSS feeds,
> on Gemini, on Hacker News, on Mastodon. And, incredibly, a lot of
> them are on very minimalists and usable blogs. The funny thing is
> that when non-tech users see my blog or those I'm reading, they
> spontaneously tell me how beautiful and usable they are. It's a bit
> like all those layers of JavaScript and flashy css have been used
> against usability, against them. Against us. It's a bit like real
> users never cared about "cool designs" and only wanted something
> simple.
>
> It feels like everyone is now choosing its side. You can't stay in
> the middle anymore. You are either dedicating all your CPU cycles to
> run JavaScript tracking you or walking away from the big monopolies.
> You are either being paid to build huge advertising billboards on top
> of yet another framework or you are handcrafting HTML.
>
> Maybe the web is not dying. Maybe the web is only splitting itself in
> two.
>
> You know that famous "dark web" that journalists crave to write
> about? (at my request, one journalist once told me what "dark web"
> meant to him and it was "websites not easily accessible through a
> Google search".) Well, sometimes I feel like I'm part of that "dark
> web". Not to buy drugs or hire hitmen. No! It's only to have a place
> where I can have discussions without being spied and interrupted by
> ads.
>
> But, increasingly, I feel less and less like an outsider.
>
> It's not me. It's people living for and by advertising who are the
> outsiders. They are the one destroying everything they touch,
> including the planet. They are the sick psychos and I don't want them
> in my life anymore. Are we splitting from those
> click-conversion-funnel-obsessed weirdos? Good riddance! Have fun
> with them.
>
> But if you want to jump ship, now is the time to get back to the
> simple web. Welcome back aboard!
>
> From: <https://ploum.net/2023-08-01-splitting-the-web.html>

Cross-posting to specific communities it would interest. Original thread
in comp.misc. (Is this against Usenet etiquette?)

Re: Splitting The Web

<87bkahjbv6.fsf@neptune>

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From: nos...@nospam.org (cr0c0d1le)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gemini,comp.infosystems.gopher,comp.infosystems.www.misc,comp.misc
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 by: cr0c0d1le - Sat, 23 Dec 2023 13:18 UTC

immibis <news@immibis.com> writes:

> On 12/22/23 18:47, Ben Collver wrote:
>> # Splitting the Web by Ploum on 2023-08-01
>> There's an increasing chasm dividing the modern web. On one side,
>> the
>> commercial, monopolies-riddled, media-adored web. A web which has
>> only one objective: making us click. It measures clicks, optimises
>> clicks, generates clicks. It gathers as much information as it could
>> about us and spams every second of our life with ads, beep,
>> notifications, vibrations, blinking LEDs, background music and
>> fluorescent titles.
>> A web which boils down to Idiocracy in a Blade Runner landscape, a
>> complete cyberpunk dystopia.
>> Then there's the tech-savvy web. People who install adblockers or
>> alternative browsers. People who try alternative networks such as
>> Mastodon or, God forbid, Gemini. People who poke fun at the modern
>> web by building true HTML and JavaScript-less pages.
>> Between those two extremes, the gap is widening. You have to choose
>> your camp. When browsing on the "normal web", it is increasingly
>> required to disable at least part of your antifeatures-blockers to
>> access content.
>> Most of the time, I don't bother anymore. The link I clicked doesn't
>> open or is wrangled? Yep, I'm probably blocking some important
>> third-party JavaScript. No, I don't care. I've too much to read on a
>> day anyway. More time for something else. I'm currently using
>> kagi.com as my main search engine on the web. And kagi.com comes with
>> a nice feature, a "non-commercial lens" (which is somewhat ironic
>> given the fact that Kagi is, itself, a commercial search engine). It
>> means it will try to deprioritize highly commercial contents. I can
>> also deprioritize manually some domains. Like facebook.com or
>> linkedin.com. If you post there, I'm less likely to read you. I've
>> not even talked about the few times I use marginalia.nu.
>> Something strange is happening: it's not only a part of the web
>> which
>> is disappearing for me. As I'm blocking completely google analytics,
>> every Facebook domain and any analytics I can, I'm also disappearing
>> for them. I don't see them and they don't see me!
>> Think about it! That whole "MBA, designers and marketers web" is now
>> optimised thanks to analytics describing people who don't block
>> analytics (and bots pretending to be those people). Each day, I feel
>> more disconnected from that part of the web.
>> When really needed, dealing with those websites is so nerve breaking
>> that I often resort to... a phone call or a simple email. I signed my
>> mobile phone contract by exchanging emails with a real person because
>> the signup was not working. I phone to book hotels when it is not
>> straightforward to do it in the web interface or if creating an
>> account is required. I hate talking on the phone but it saves me a
>> lot of time and stress. I also walk or cycle to stores instead of
>> ordering online. Which allows me to get advice and to exchange
>> defective items without dealing with the post office.
>> Despite breaking up with what seems to be "The Web", I've never
>> received so many emails commenting my blog posts. I rarely had as
>> many interesting online conversations as I have on Mastodon. I've
>> tens of really insightful contents to read every day in my RSS feeds,
>> on Gemini, on Hacker News, on Mastodon. And, incredibly, a lot of
>> them are on very minimalists and usable blogs. The funny thing is
>> that when non-tech users see my blog or those I'm reading, they
>> spontaneously tell me how beautiful and usable they are. It's a bit
>> like all those layers of JavaScript and flashy css have been used
>> against usability, against them. Against us. It's a bit like real
>> users never cared about "cool designs" and only wanted something
>> simple.
>> It feels like everyone is now choosing its side. You can't stay in
>> the middle anymore. You are either dedicating all your CPU cycles to
>> run JavaScript tracking you or walking away from the big monopolies.
>> You are either being paid to build huge advertising billboards on top
>> of yet another framework or you are handcrafting HTML.
>> Maybe the web is not dying. Maybe the web is only splitting itself
>> in
>> two.
>> You know that famous "dark web" that journalists crave to write
>> about? (at my request, one journalist once told me what "dark web"
>> meant to him and it was "websites not easily accessible through a
>> Google search".) Well, sometimes I feel like I'm part of that "dark
>> web". Not to buy drugs or hire hitmen. No! It's only to have a place
>> where I can have discussions without being spied and interrupted by
>> ads.
>> But, increasingly, I feel less and less like an outsider.
>> It's not me. It's people living for and by advertising who are the
>> outsiders. They are the one destroying everything they touch,
>> including the planet. They are the sick psychos and I don't want them
>> in my life anymore. Are we splitting from those
>> click-conversion-funnel-obsessed weirdos? Good riddance! Have fun
>> with them.
>> But if you want to jump ship, now is the time to get back to the
>> simple web. Welcome back aboard!
>> From: <https://ploum.net/2023-08-01-splitting-the-web.html>
>
> Cross-posting to specific communities it would interest. Original
> thread in comp.misc. (Is this against Usenet etiquette?)
Interesting. My take on the modern web is like sugar; it's fine in
moderation. This is not a black-and-white issue.

Re: Splitting The Web

<8a84692b-ac5b-3eb4-3e37-0b62a93c4781@example.net>

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Subject: Re: Splitting The Web
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 14:33:26 +0100
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 by: D - Sat, 23 Dec 2023 13:33 UTC

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023, cr0c0d1le wrote:

>> Cross-posting to specific communities it would interest. Original
>> thread in comp.misc. (Is this against Usenet etiquette?)
> Interesting. My take on the modern web is like sugar; it's fine in
> moderation. This is not a black-and-white issue.
>

Agreed. I think it is a false dichotomy. I use the regular web for
banking, booking things, shopping, news, hackernews, blogs, price
comparison etc.

At the same time, I love mailinglists and email where my more high
quality discussion takes place.

Somewhere in the middle is mastodon and usenet.

I do agree though, that there might be a trend towards consolidation
onto Google Chrome and that Google would then run the future of the net.

I also agree that I try to buy more things in person, and that the
booking systems seem to become worse and worse, forcing me to have
multiple web browsers.

In terms of the future, I expect consolidation onto chrome, I expect the
majority to be more tracked and have less choice online, and I do expect
that people will be forced into digital ID:s and will be forced to own
smartphones, which proved to be so convenient for tracking and
controlling people during corona. Those benefits were too good for the
government to let them go.

That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not own a smart
phone and I am paying more for certain things due to my not having one.

Interesting future for sure!

Best regards,
Daniel

Re: Splitting The Web

<6587550e@news.ausics.net>

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From: not...@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Subject: Re: Splitting The Web
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 by: Computer Nerd Kev - Sat, 23 Dec 2023 21:45 UTC

In comp.misc cr0c0d1le <nospam@nospam.org> wrote:
>
> Interesting. My take on the modern web is like sugar; it's fine in
> moderation. This is not a black-and-white issue.

I find the characteristics of the modern web more like trying to
get through life if I disliked the taste of sugar - everyone keeps
putting it in where I don't want it.

The split that the article describes sounds like what the
proponents of modern web technologies describe as Web 2.0. A
website choosing not to adopt the "Web 2.0" technologies might
indcate a split of opinion, but the pracical split was when
websites I've used for many years in lightweight web browsers
without Javascript or CSS support became unusable except in
Firefox/Chrome based browsers.

Frankly blogs and personal websites aren't the problem there in
the first place for me. Some might look very broken without CSS,
but I don't care anyway. It's everything else, even mainstream news
websites which basically have the same task as large blogs, that
have become less usable in my opinion. Even more so if you don't
want 3rd parties like Google keeping tabs on you while you browse
(potentially via their unavoidable, and ever more numerous, captcha
scripts, if not via Google Analytics).

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _# | Note: I won't see posts made from Google Groups |

Re: Splitting The Web

<20231224013056.2334288ca027eefaef5d0f99@gmail.moc>

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 by: Anton Shepelev - Sat, 23 Dec 2023 22:30 UTC

D:

> That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not
> own a smart phone and I am paying more for certain things
> due to my not having one.

Same thing with me in Russia: discrimination against people
without smartphones, or not wishing to clutter their
smartphones with the "apps" of every shop the visit.
Futhermore, I can no longer use many internet shops and do
other things on the web wihout a phone becase of a mandatory
2FA or the abandonment of e-mail in favour of proprietary
messengers and SMS for notifications and communication in
general. Some shops have you registed in a social network
(VK) in order to become their client!

In fact, I hate the so-called loyaty programs, because they
are about anything /but/ loyaty, and make some clients pay
unreasonable high prices in order than other ones may pay
lower prices, whereas the actual cost or servising a client
does not depend on whether he participates in the so-called
loyalty program.

And what nasty a word choice! Loyalty is unselfish
faithfulness and commitment at the sacrifice of one's own
interests and well-being. Getting a discount is the
opposite.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Re: Splitting The Web

<f95d1ce-689e-3f7-98ed-dfcfbf688a2b@email.de>

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From: hr.use...@email.de (Helmut Richter)
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 by: Helmut Richter - Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:38 UTC

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Anton Shepelev wrote:

> D:
>
> > That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not
> > own a smart phone and I am paying more for certain things
> > due to my not having one.
>
> Same thing with me in Russia: discrimination against people
> without smartphones, or not wishing to clutter their
> smartphones with the "apps" of every shop the visit.

The German movement "Digitalcourage" has coined the term "Digitalzwang"
(compulsory digitalisation) for this feature. For instance, some public
funding programmes cannot be used unless you have access to a PC (a
smartphone is not sufficient) hooked up to the internet.

Digitalcourage support responsible digitalisation by offering help in the
usage of secure authorisation and encryption but strictly disapproves of
any form of compulsory digitalisation. People who refuse using public data
networks, whatever their motives, must have equal rights as everybody
else.
--
Helmut Richter

Re: Splitting The Web

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From: SPAMian_...@yahoo.co.uk (IanJ)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gemini,comp.infosystems.gopher,comp.infosystems.www.misc,comp.misc
Subject: Re: Splitting The Web
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 by: IanJ - Sun, 24 Dec 2023 13:19 UTC

In comp.infosystems.gopher immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
> On 12/22/23 18:47, Ben Collver wrote:
>> # Splitting the Web by Ploum on 2023-08-01
>>
>> But, increasingly, I feel less and less like an outsider.
>>
>> It's not me. It's people living for and by advertising who are the
>> outsiders. They are the one destroying everything they touch,
>> including the planet. They are the sick psychos and I don't want them
>> in my life anymore. Are we splitting from those
>> click-conversion-funnel-obsessed weirdos? Good riddance! Have fun
>> with them.
>>
>> But if you want to jump ship, now is the time to get back to the
>> simple web. Welcome back aboard!
>>
>> From: <https://ploum.net/2023-08-01-splitting-the-web.html>
>
> Cross-posting to specific communities it would interest. Original thread
> in comp.misc. (Is this against Usenet etiquette?)

Personally I don't see that it is possible to split the web, the whole
idea behind it is that you can seemlessly navigate between sites, so even
with the best efforts and intentions, you don't really know what kind of
site that next link click will take you to.

The problem is that the technology of the modern web facilitates all of
the problems listed above. Older technologies, like gopher and usenet,
due to their limited nature are unable to be harmful to their users in
the same way.

Add blockers are in a constant arms race with the add marketers, like
youtube is punishing people who are trying to block their adverts
currently. Why fight it?

My own philosophy is to abandon the web, wherever practical to do so.
Where I do have to interact with it (banking, shopping, bookings) I try
to get it done and then close the browser. If I should visit a link that
someone posts then I'll use lynx, if the site requires javascript then I
just close it in defiance.

I make heavy use of RSS for web based information, news and sites that
I'm interested in. Thankfully even if they don't advertise the fact
they often have RSS feeds, the links are hidden in the page if you
search the source. I don't have any social media accounts, unless you
count a linkedin profile page. I never post anything on the web and
don't have a personal website. I have also, in the past year, returned
to Usenet and have been trying to encourage others to do so too. Google
is finally releasing its grip, which hopefully means that the influx of
spam from the web will soon end:
https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/18/google_ends_usenet_links/

For me, I've chosen to invest my energy into irc, gopher and usenet,
where communities can exist and content is created because people want
to share some idea or interest. The technology doesn't lend itself to
abusing its users for financial gain and that is a wonderful thing.

The web is nolonger a community space, it is a coroporate mining
operation and it is people that are being mined.

Merry Christmas!

--

IanJ

gopher://gopher.icu

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: oldernow - Tue, 26 Dec 2023 20:34 UTC

On 2023-12-24, IanJ <SPAMian_jones_01@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> My own philosophy is to abandon the web, wherever practical to
> do so. Where I do have to interact with it (banking, shopping,
> bookings) I try to get it done and then close the browser. If
> I should visit a link that someone posts then I'll use lynx, if
> the site requires javascript then I just close it in defiance.

Same here, practically identically.

> I have also, in the past year, returned to Usenet and have
> been trying to encourage others to do so too.

I mention it here and there in Gemini spaces, which means in
my experience means there's likely nobody reading it. :-)

*But*, I'm going to keep peeking back at a few newsgroups and
see if any take off.

Thanks for the reply!

--
Oldernow
gemlog | gemini://tilde.club/~oldernow | gemini://bbs.geminispace.org/u/oldernow
email | xyz001@nym.hush.com

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: cr0c0d1le - Tue, 26 Dec 2023 23:53 UTC

IanJ <SPAMian_jones_01@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> In comp.infosystems.gopher immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
>> On 12/22/23 18:47, Ben Collver wrote:
>>> # Splitting the Web by Ploum on 2023-08-01
>>>
>>> But, increasingly, I feel less and less like an outsider.
>>>
>>> It's not me. It's people living for and by advertising who are the
>>> outsiders. They are the one destroying everything they touch,
>>> including the planet. They are the sick psychos and I don't want them
>>> in my life anymore. Are we splitting from those
>>> click-conversion-funnel-obsessed weirdos? Good riddance! Have fun
>>> with them.
>>>
>>> But if you want to jump ship, now is the time to get back to the
>>> simple web. Welcome back aboard!
>>>
>>> From: <https://ploum.net/2023-08-01-splitting-the-web.html>
>>
>> Cross-posting to specific communities it would interest. Original thread
>> in comp.misc. (Is this against Usenet etiquette?)
>
>
> Personally I don't see that it is possible to split the web, the whole
> idea behind it is that you can seemlessly navigate between sites, so even
> with the best efforts and intentions, you don't really know what kind of
> site that next link click will take you to.
>
> The problem is that the technology of the modern web facilitates all of
> the problems listed above. Older technologies, like gopher and usenet,
> due to their limited nature are unable to be harmful to their users in
> the same way.
>
> Add blockers are in a constant arms race with the add marketers, like
> youtube is punishing people who are trying to block their adverts
> currently. Why fight it?
>
> My own philosophy is to abandon the web, wherever practical to do so.
> Where I do have to interact with it (banking, shopping, bookings) I try
> to get it done and then close the browser. If I should visit a link that
> someone posts then I'll use lynx, if the site requires javascript then I
> just close it in defiance.
>
> I make heavy use of RSS for web based information, news and sites that
> I'm interested in. Thankfully even if they don't advertise the fact
> they often have RSS feeds, the links are hidden in the page if you
> search the source. I don't have any social media accounts, unless you
> count a linkedin profile page. I never post anything on the web and
> don't have a personal website. I have also, in the past year, returned
> to Usenet and have been trying to encourage others to do so too. Google
> is finally releasing its grip, which hopefully means that the influx of
> spam from the web will soon end:
> https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/18/google_ends_usenet_links/
I dropped LinkedIn a few years ago. As a web dev, not being on LinkedIn
is a risky move, but data brokers can take a hike. I stand by my decision.
>
>
> For me, I've chosen to invest my energy into irc, gopher and usenet,
> where communities can exist and content is created because people want
> to share some idea or interest. The technology doesn't lend itself to
> abusing its users for financial gain and that is a wonderful thing.
Don't forget BBSes! Some of them are pretty active.
>
> The web is nolonger a community space, it is a coroporate mining
> operation and it is people that are being mined.
>
> Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas as well!

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: immibis - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 18:08 UTC

On 12/24/23 14:19, IanJ wrote:
> Personally I don't see that it is possible to split the web, the whole
> idea behind it is that you can seemlessly navigate between sites, so even
> with the best efforts and intentions, you don't really know what kind of
> site that next link click will take you to.

Most commercial websites - by which I mean websites whose commerce *is*
the website, not just websites for companies - already block themselves
off from the free web, trying to make you pay to get in.

And people who use the free web probably don't get much value from them,
either.

It won't be a complete split, but a network with two clusters.

The rest of your message describes you as a primarily free web user, who
split himself from the commercial web.

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: D - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 16:11 UTC

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Anton Shepelev wrote:

>> That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not
>> own a smart phone and I am paying more for certain things
>> due to my not having one.
>
> Same thing with me in Russia: discrimination against people
> without smartphones, or not wishing to clutter their
> smartphones with the "apps" of every shop the visit.
> Futhermore, I can no longer use many internet shops and do
> other things on the web wihout a phone becase of a mandatory
> 2FA or the abandonment of e-mail in favour of proprietary
> messengers and SMS for notifications and communication in
> general. Some shops have you registed in a social network
> (VK) in order to become their client!
>

Hello Anton,

Wow! It sounds like russia is even worse than my country in this case.
=( What I do is to have an american express credit card, since that
seems to be the only credit card available to me that sends 2fa through
either email or sms. All my native credit cards require apps + the
government digital ID which in turn requires a modern smart phone (don't
even think about running it on a 6 year old smart phone, won't work).

So my other solution is debit-cards which still work although many of
them are starting to move to the app + government ID.

My last and final solution is to have my wife buy things for me. ;)

> In fact, I hate the so-called loyaty programs, because they
> are about anything /but/ loyaty, and make some clients pay
> unreasonable high prices in order than other ones may pay
> lower prices, whereas the actual cost or servising a client
> does not depend on whether he participates in the so-called
> loyalty program.

Never bothered with them, and I do pay the higher price due to it. I
always wondered if there was room for starting a business that would
aggregate all programs on behalf of other people and thus "garble" the
information. Think of it as an e-commerce proxy where people pay you
cash or through bank transfer and you (and your staff) buy things online
on their behalf. The profile then built up is based on 10, 20...x
persons so won't really be useful. I assume that it is illegal but would
be a nice privacy preserving service. =)

> And what nasty a word choice! Loyalty is unselfish
> faithfulness and commitment at the sacrifice of one's own
> interests and well-being. Getting a discount is the
> opposite.

Agreed!

Best regards,
Daniel

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: D - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 16:18 UTC

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Helmut Richter wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Anton Shepelev wrote:
>
>> D:
>>
>>> That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not
>>> own a smart phone and I am paying more for certain things
>>> due to my not having one.
>>
>> Same thing with me in Russia: discrimination against people
>> without smartphones, or not wishing to clutter their
>> smartphones with the "apps" of every shop the visit.
>
> The German movement "Digitalcourage" has coined the term "Digitalzwang"
> (compulsory digitalisation) for this feature. For instance, some public
> funding programmes cannot be used unless you have access to a PC (a
> smartphone is not sufficient) hooked up to the internet.
>
> Digitalcourage support responsible digitalisation by offering help in the
> usage of secure authorisation and encryption but strictly disapproves of
> any form of compulsory digitalisation. People who refuse using public data
> networks, whatever their motives, must have equal rights as everybody
> else.
>

Interesting! Do you have any links to german organizations working on
this? I would be interested in reaching out and learning what they are
doing and how they are working to see if I might not be able to do
something similar in my home country.

Best regards,
Daniel

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: cr0c0d1le - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 16:19 UTC

D <nospam@example.net> writes:
> My last and final solution is to have my wife buy things for me. ;)
>
I use the Stallman solution: No cash, no sale!

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: D - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 16:21 UTC

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, IanJ wrote:

> For me, I've chosen to invest my energy into irc, gopher and usenet,
> where communities can exist and content is created because people want

A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups? I downloaded a
list of all newsgroups, sorted them based on nr of messages and stumbled
onto a _few_ that seemed to have good conversations, but many were
garbage.

Is there some smart way to find more groups with good, quality
conversations?

Best regards,
Daniel

Re: Splitting The Web

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From: hr.use...@email.de (Helmut Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gemini,comp.infosystems.gopher,comp.infosystems.www.misc,comp.misc
Subject: Re: Splitting The Web
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 17:43:38 +0100
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 by: Helmut Richter - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 16:43 UTC

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, D wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Helmut Richter wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> >
> > > D:
> > >
> > > > That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not
> > > > own a smart phone and I am paying more for certain things
> > > > due to my not having one.
> > >
> > > Same thing with me in Russia: discrimination against people
> > > without smartphones, or not wishing to clutter their
> > > smartphones with the "apps" of every shop the visit.
> >
> > The German movement "Digitalcourage" has coined the term "Digitalzwang"
> > (compulsory digitalisation) for this feature. For instance, some public
> > funding programmes cannot be used unless you have access to a PC (a
> > smartphone is not sufficient) hooked up to the internet.
> >
> > Digitalcourage support responsible digitalisation by offering help in the
> > usage of secure authorisation and encryption but strictly disapproves of
> > any form of compulsory digitalisation. People who refuse using public data
> > networks, whatever their motives, must have equal rights as everybody
> > else.
> >
>
> Interesting! Do you have any links to german organizations working on
> this? I would be interested in reaching out and learning what they are
> doing and how they are working to see if I might not be able to do
> something similar in my home country.

Chaos Computer Club (ccc.de)
Digitalcourage (digitalcourage.de)

Both are decsribed in the German as well as in the English Wikipedia. CCC
focuses more on software techniques aka hacking (in the positive sense),
Digitalcourage on the impact on society and what non-hackers can or should
do, but their interest overlaps and the two work together.

--
Helmut Richter

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: Helmut Richter - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 16:51 UTC

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, D wrote:

> A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups?

Well, as a long term user of usenet, I have the converse problem:
If I have any question (one that cannot be answered by looking up some
information but one that could require a direct answer) on any topic, how
do I find a good quality blog or whatever, if not in usenet?

I do not mean to say that all of usenet is high quality, but there is at
least a more or less unique point where to start looking for something.
The WWW is too world-wide, and Google's preferences need not be mine.

--
Helmut Richter

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 16:56 UTC

Helmut Richter wrote:

> Chaos Computer Club (ccc.de)

It's the time of year they are releasing interesting videos from their
latest conference ... the polish trains one is good!

unfortunately many seem to not have English versions this time ...

Re: Splitting The Web

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Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gemini,comp.infosystems.gopher,comp.infosystems.www.misc,comp.misc
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 by: IanJ - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 17:38 UTC

In comp.infosystems.gopher D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
> A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups? I downloaded a
> list of all newsgroups, sorted them based on nr of messages and stumbled
> onto a _few_ that seemed to have good conversations, but many were
> garbage.
>
> Is there some smart way to find more groups with good, quality
> conversations?

I used Usenet back in the mid to late 90's so there were a few I already
knew of that I re-subscribed to. For new ones I generally list all and
then use the search to look for regional/international groups with topics
I'm interested in, then take a look, before subscribing, to see if they
are active and what kind of conversation is going on.

With the amount of spam on some of the groups I think looking at them by
the quantity of posts may throw you a curve ball...

The other thing is that some groups may appear dead but they're just
waiting for someone to restart the conversation. People will still be
subscribed to them in my experience...

--

IanJ

gopher://gopher.icu

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: D - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 22:02 UTC

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, cr0c0d1le wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> writes:
>> My last and final solution is to have my wife buy things for me. ;)
>>
> I use the Stallman solution: No cash, no sale!
>

That is an interesting solution. If I were to adopt that solution I would
have to relinquish my phone, electricity, internet. I could buy food, I
could pay my rent. No car or plane travel. Train would work.

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: D - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 22:03 UTC

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, Helmut Richter wrote:

>> Interesting! Do you have any links to german organizations working on
>> this? I would be interested in reaching out and learning what they are
>> doing and how they are working to see if I might not be able to do
>> something similar in my home country.
>
> Chaos Computer Club (ccc.de)
> Digitalcourage (digitalcourage.de)
>
> Both are decsribed in the German as well as in the English Wikipedia. CCC
> focuses more on software techniques aka hacking (in the positive sense),
> Digitalcourage on the impact on society and what non-hackers can or should
> do, but their interest overlaps and the two work together.
>

Great! Thank you very much for the pointer in the right direction. =)

Best regards,
Daniel

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: D - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 22:05 UTC

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, Helmut Richter wrote:

>> A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups?
>
> Well, as a long term user of usenet, I have the converse problem:
> If I have any question (one that cannot be answered by looking up some
> information but one that could require a direct answer) on any topic, how
> do I find a good quality blog or whatever, if not in usenet?
>
> I do not mean to say that all of usenet is high quality, but there is at
> least a more or less unique point where to start looking for something.
> The WWW is too world-wide, and Google's preferences need not be mine.

Interesting perspective! Coming from the web, what I do is ask someone I
know (but that only pushes the same problem onto another person) use
ddg.gg, hackernews, stackoverflow or the main web site of the open
source project or technology I'm researching.

Best regards,
Daniel

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 by: D - Wed, 3 Jan 2024 22:07 UTC

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, IanJ wrote:

> With the amount of spam on some of the groups I think looking at them by
> the quantity of posts may throw you a curve ball...

Thank you IanJ, that's a good point.

> The other thing is that some groups may appear dead but they're just
> waiting for someone to restart the conversation. People will still be
> subscribed to them in my experience...

Never tried that, but sounds like a good trick as well!

Best regards,
Daniel

Re: Splitting The Web

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 by: Rayner Lucas - Thu, 4 Jan 2024 22:51 UTC

In article <d48066ec-5e78-08b2-8842-cc024b70086a@example.net>,
nospam@example.net says...
>
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, IanJ wrote:
>
> > For me, I've chosen to invest my energy into irc, gopher and usenet,
> > where communities can exist and content is created because people want
>
> A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups? I downloaded a
> list of all newsgroups, sorted them based on nr of messages and stumbled
> onto a _few_ that seemed to have good conversations, but many were
> garbage.
>
> Is there some smart way to find more groups with good, quality
> conversations?
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel

There's a recent thread titled "Which groups are active?" over on
alt.usenet.newbies that might have some good leads.

Hopefully one upside of Google leaving Usenet will be that there'll be
less spam, and the number of messages in a group will become a better
reflection of how active the group really is.

Rayner

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 by: D - Fri, 5 Jan 2024 11:55 UTC

> There's a recent thread titled "Which groups are active?" over on
> alt.usenet.newbies that might have some good leads.
>
> Hopefully one upside of Google leaving Usenet will be that there'll be
> less spam, and the number of messages in a group will become a better
> reflection of how active the group really is.

Great suggestion, thank you very much Rayner!

Best regards,
Daniel

Re: Splitting The Web

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From: new...@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gemini,comp.infosystems.gopher,comp.infosystems.www.misc,comp.misc
Subject: Re: Splitting The Web
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 21:25:10 +0100
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 by: immibis - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 20:25 UTC

On 1/3/24 17:56, Andy Burns wrote:
> Helmut Richter wrote:
>
>> Chaos Computer Club (ccc.de)
>
> It's the time of year they are releasing interesting videos from their
> latest conference ... the polish trains one is good!
>
> unfortunately many seem to not have English versions this time ...
>

As far as I know they have never published translations, even when they
have amateur live translations during the event.

If you're watching on YouTube, the auto-generated and auto-translated
subtitles are mostly okay.


devel / comp.infosystems.gopher / Re: Splitting The Web

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