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interests / rec.games.chess.misc / Re: The psychology of chess?

SubjectAuthor
* The psychology of chess?D
+* Re: The psychology of chess?Chimbis
|+- Re: The psychology of chess?D
|`- Re: The psychology of chess?The Horny Goat
`* Re: The psychology of chess?William Hyde
 +* Re: The psychology of chess?D
 |`* Re: The psychology of chess?William Hyde
 | `* Re: The psychology of chess?D
 |  `* Re: The psychology of chess?William Hyde
 |   +- Re: The psychology of chess?D
 |   `* Re: The psychology of chess?The Horny Goat
 |    +- Re: The psychology of chess?D
 |    `* Re: The psychology of chess?William Hyde
 |     `* Re: The psychology of chess?The Horny Goat
 |      `* Re: The psychology of chess?William Hyde
 |       `* Re: The psychology of chess?The Horny Goat
 |        `* Re: The psychology of chess?William Hyde
 |         +* Re: The psychology of chess?The Horny Goat
 |         |`* Re: The psychology of chess?William Hyde
 |         | +- Re: The psychology of chess?D
 |         | +* Re: The psychology of chess?The Horny Goat
 |         | |`* Re: The psychology of chess?William Hyde
 |         | | `- Re: The psychology of chess?The Horny Goat
 |         | +- Re: The psychology of chess?The Horny Goat
 |         | `- Re: The psychology of chess?The Horny Goat
 |         `* OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)D
 |          `* Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)William Hyde
 |           +- Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)D
 |           `* Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)The Horny Goat
 |            +- Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)D
 |            `* Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)William Hyde
 |             `* Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)The Horny Goat
 |              `- Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)D
 `* Re: The psychology of chess?The Horny Goat
  `- Re: The psychology of chess?D

Pages:12
Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)

<t7ivvitmfe4l8hj9ha4vv3h8st9c887rob@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.misc
Subject: Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)
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Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2024 23:51:52 -0700
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sun, 24 Mar 2024 06:51 UTC

On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 14:31:26 -0400, William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024, William Hyde wrote:
>>
>>> I can drop by on the appropriate day and spectate both chess and bridge.
>>>
>>> William Hyde
>>
>> Pease excuse me for going a bit off topic, but since I see you
>> mentioning bridge, and since the card games group is kind of dead, I
>> wonder if you could tell me if it is possible to play bridge with
>> complete strangers?
>>
>> I'm fascinated by the game, but the team-aspect
>
>
>Specifically partnership-aspect. In bridge teams are of four.

Teams of 4 are common in competitive bridge play where the same hand
is played on two different tables with 1/2 of one team playing N-S,
the other playing E-W and the scores of both tables in each round are
summed. There are various scoring methods with raw score on each, raw
score team of 4, Intenational Match point scoring where a raw score is
converted to IMP score designed to moderate the effect of big swings
such as when one side gets a slam, the other stops in game.

Then there's pure duplicate where a pair is a team and many others.

Finally let me share with you a hand I showed Dr Nathan Divinsky who
was both my vector calculus professor at the University of BC as well
as being long time Secretary of the Chess Federation of Canada (my
current job) and a well regarded bridge player.

I asked him "what is the worst hand in bridge?" He said he didn't know
and asked me to show him. I wrote on the napkin:

S: AKQJ
H: AKQJ
D: AKQJ
C: AK

After looking at it and not getting it he asked me how that could
possibly be the worst hand. I said "Dr Divinsky count the cards!" A
moment later he had a huge grin on his face and called me a nasty name

I had the honor of representing the Chess Federation of Canada at his
funeral in 2012 telling the family "I am one of the ten thousand" (the
eulogist had mentioned his 10000+ students at UBC) "and in addition I
am the secretary of the Chess Federation of Canada" then turned to
each of the family and said "on behalf of the Chess Federation thank
you for giving him to us for awhile"

[After his death his widow invited me and several other chess players
to their house and was each gifted several of his books. One of mine I
got that day was a first edition of Fine's Basic Chess Endings - I
already had a copy of the much enlarged third edition but the first
edition was quite special]
> of it makes it kind of
>> annoying since I like the fact that with chess, poker or other games,
>> you can just sit down and play, and there would be no need to form a
>> team where you know the other guy.

For tournament play that's true though for casual play if you're
willing to play "pick up" you can easily play though obviously you
have to stick to the same bidding conventions everyone knows

>Others are wise and accommodating (and generally
>get better results with weaker partners).

Victor Mollo covered that point in detail in his books featuring The
Hideous Hog who was a master level player who was totally ungifted
when playing with weaker partners and simply could not adjust his play
to them some of which led to magnificent disasters. Any of these books
is tremendously entertaining though I can't imagine it would improve
your bridge much!

>You will do better in bridge if you are always respectful of your
>partner, no matter what idiotic action partner has made. Remember
>that you yourself make the occasional idiotic play.

Mollo did finish all these books with a chapter on how not to be the
"Hideous Hog" and actually play good bridge with any partner (which
may not be your best with your regular partner but nonetheless
satisfying)

Re: The psychology of chess?

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.misc
Subject: Re: The psychology of chess?
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sun, 24 Mar 2024 07:02 UTC

On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 14:41:28 -0400, William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>That's always our problem in Canada. Nine out of ten times the event
>you want to see or play in is over a thousand kilometers away.
>
>I've never actually been able to play in the Canadian Open when it
>has been held in Toronto. But I had the time and money to play in
>Ottawa and Quebec city (and almost, almost, Vancouver, but alas not
>quite).
>
I haven't played in a Canadian Open since 1971 when in round one I was
clearly winning against a player rating 150 above me. I snatched an h
pawn with my bishop which was immediately trapped, put my head in my
hands and looked up. (Our game was on the main aisle to the top
boards)

I looked up and saw none other than Boris Spasky watching my board and
I saw him shake his head sadly and turn away. 50 years later I still
wonder if he remembered that sad looking kid in Vancouver when Fischer
snatched the h-pawn in round one of his match with Spassky in
Reykjavik.He's now 87 and very much still alive but I will always
remember that day.

(I also remember being in the skittles room where a distinguished
older man chastised us for making too much noise and that our noise
was making it back to the main tournament hall. Afterwards one of the
kids said "OMG was that who I think it was?" "Uh huh - THAT was Max
Euwe" who was then FIDE president. (The FIDE Congress was not far away
from the hall where the Canadian Open was being played and he knew
Spassky was there so dropped in to take a look. This was about 3
months after Fischer-Taimanov which was played elsewhere on the same
campus and which my parents wouldn't let me make a 90 minute bus trip
to the university to see the GMs play. This was of course his first
match to the world championship which went through Taimanov, Larsen,
Petrosian and finally Spassky in Reykjavik the following year)

So that's how I came to meet two world champins in the same event -
one was playing the other not.

Re: The psychology of chess?

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.misc
Subject: Re: The psychology of chess?
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sun, 24 Mar 2024 07:11 UTC

On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 14:41:28 -0400, William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>One year Billy Oxygen shared first place at a tournament in Bellville,
>Ont. He had traveled by taxi from his home in Kitchener, for $160.
>Which was probably more than his prize.

That's not all that short a distance - Kitchener is about 45 minutes
to an hour W of Toronto while Belville is the town on the eastern end
of Lake Ontario - typically about a 2-3 hour drive away. (My late aunt
lived there)

[I remember my father telling me that when I went to McMaster
(Hamilton ON) he told my grandmother that Hamilton was on the W end of
Lake Ontario and she remembered her daughter lived in Belville which
she knew to be "at the end of Lake Ontario" and said "Oh good - Lyle
will be able to see his aunt often!" My father knew the geography and
had to gently tell her "Actually Mom Hamilton and Belleville are at
opposite ends of Lake Ontario" (slightly under 200 miles apart) and
told her how long Lake Ontario is though to be fair 3 years later I
met my future wife at McMaster and married her 8 months after
graduation and my aunt and her husband _did_ come to our wedding.]

Re: The psychology of chess?

<7jkvvi9p6cilm7ml6ei7ocu6dukjg2f47k@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.misc
Subject: Re: The psychology of chess?
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sun, 24 Mar 2024 07:12 UTC

On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 14:41:28 -0400, William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>Dave Ross, an Ottawa master, saved money by hitchhiking to a Detroit
>tournament. He showed up for round one not having slept at all,
>but somehow won the event anyway.

OK one more master we've both met...

Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)

<7ab66dee-c220-391a-6b3e-c0f0d9ff738c@example.net>

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From: nos...@example.net (D)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.misc
Subject: Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 11:58:48 +0100
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 by: D - Sun, 24 Mar 2024 10:58 UTC

Thank you very much! =)

Best regards,
Daniel

On Sat, 23 Mar 2024, The Horny Goat wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 14:31:26 -0400, William Hyde
> <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024, William Hyde wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can drop by on the appropriate day and spectate both chess and bridge.
>>>>
>>>> William Hyde
>>>
>>> Pease excuse me for going a bit off topic, but since I see you
>>> mentioning bridge, and since the card games group is kind of dead, I
>>> wonder if you could tell me if it is possible to play bridge with
>>> complete strangers?
>>>
>>> I'm fascinated by the game, but the team-aspect
>>
>>
>> Specifically partnership-aspect. In bridge teams are of four.
>
> Teams of 4 are common in competitive bridge play where the same hand
> is played on two different tables with 1/2 of one team playing N-S,
> the other playing E-W and the scores of both tables in each round are
> summed. There are various scoring methods with raw score on each, raw
> score team of 4, Intenational Match point scoring where a raw score is
> converted to IMP score designed to moderate the effect of big swings
> such as when one side gets a slam, the other stops in game.
>
> Then there's pure duplicate where a pair is a team and many others.
>
> Finally let me share with you a hand I showed Dr Nathan Divinsky who
> was both my vector calculus professor at the University of BC as well
> as being long time Secretary of the Chess Federation of Canada (my
> current job) and a well regarded bridge player.
>
> I asked him "what is the worst hand in bridge?" He said he didn't know
> and asked me to show him. I wrote on the napkin:
>
> S: AKQJ
> H: AKQJ
> D: AKQJ
> C: AK
>
> After looking at it and not getting it he asked me how that could
> possibly be the worst hand. I said "Dr Divinsky count the cards!" A
> moment later he had a huge grin on his face and called me a nasty name
>
> I had the honor of representing the Chess Federation of Canada at his
> funeral in 2012 telling the family "I am one of the ten thousand" (the
> eulogist had mentioned his 10000+ students at UBC) "and in addition I
> am the secretary of the Chess Federation of Canada" then turned to
> each of the family and said "on behalf of the Chess Federation thank
> you for giving him to us for awhile"
>
> [After his death his widow invited me and several other chess players
> to their house and was each gifted several of his books. One of mine I
> got that day was a first edition of Fine's Basic Chess Endings - I
> already had a copy of the much enlarged third edition but the first
> edition was quite special]
>
>> of it makes it kind of
>>> annoying since I like the fact that with chess, poker or other games,
>>> you can just sit down and play, and there would be no need to form a
>>> team where you know the other guy.
>
> For tournament play that's true though for casual play if you're
> willing to play "pick up" you can easily play though obviously you
> have to stick to the same bidding conventions everyone knows
>
>> Others are wise and accommodating (and generally
>> get better results with weaker partners).
>
> Victor Mollo covered that point in detail in his books featuring The
> Hideous Hog who was a master level player who was totally ungifted
> when playing with weaker partners and simply could not adjust his play
> to them some of which led to magnificent disasters. Any of these books
> is tremendously entertaining though I can't imagine it would improve
> your bridge much!
>
>> You will do better in bridge if you are always respectful of your
>> partner, no matter what idiotic action partner has made. Remember
>> that you yourself make the occasional idiotic play.
>
> Mollo did finish all these books with a chapter on how not to be the
> "Hideous Hog" and actually play good bridge with any partner (which
> may not be your best with your regular partner but nonetheless
> satisfying)
>
>

Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)

<utpsf0$h9vt$1@dont-email.me>

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From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.misc
Subject: Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 14:46:54 -0400
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 by: William Hyde - Sun, 24 Mar 2024 18:46 UTC

The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 14:31:26 -0400, William Hyde
> <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024, William Hyde wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can drop by on the appropriate day and spectate both chess and bridge.
>>>>
>>>> William Hyde
>>>
>>> Pease excuse me for going a bit off topic, but since I see you
>>> mentioning bridge, and since the card games group is kind of dead, I
>>> wonder if you could tell me if it is possible to play bridge with
>>> complete strangers?
>>>
>>> I'm fascinated by the game, but the team-aspect
>>
>>
>> Specifically partnership-aspect. In bridge teams are of four.
>
> Teams of 4 are common in competitive bridge play where the same hand
> is played on two different tables with 1/2 of one team playing N-S,
> the other playing E-W and the scores of both tables in each round are
> summed. There are various scoring methods with raw score on each, raw
> score team of 4, Intenational Match point scoring where a raw score is
> converted to IMP score designed to moderate the effect of big swings
> such as when one side gets a slam, the other stops in game.
>
> Then there's pure duplicate where a pair is a team and many others.
>
> Finally let me share with you a hand I showed Dr Nathan Divinsky who
> was both my vector calculus professor at the University of BC as well
> as being long time Secretary of the Chess Federation of Canada (my
> current job) and a well regarded bridge player.
>
> I asked him "what is the worst hand in bridge?" He said he didn't know
> and asked me to show him. I wrote on the napkin:
>
> S: AKQJ
> H: AKQJ
> D: AKQJ
> C: AK
>
> After looking at it and not getting it he asked me how that could
> possibly be the worst hand. I said "Dr Divinsky count the cards!" A
> moment later he had a huge grin on his face and called me a nasty name
>
> I had the honor of representing the Chess Federation of Canada at his
> funeral in 2012 telling the family "I am one of the ten thousand" (the
> eulogist had mentioned his 10000+ students at UBC) "and in addition I
> am the secretary of the Chess Federation of Canada" then turned to
> each of the family and said "on behalf of the Chess Federation thank
> you for giving him to us for awhile"
>
> [After his death his widow invited me and several other chess players
> to their house and was each gifted several of his books. One of mine I
> got that day was a first edition of Fine's Basic Chess Endings - I
> already had a copy of the much enlarged third edition but the first
> edition was quite special]
>
>> of it makes it kind of
>>> annoying since I like the fact that with chess, poker or other games,
>>> you can just sit down and play, and there would be no need to form a
>>> team where you know the other guy.
>
> For tournament play that's true though for casual play if you're
> willing to play "pick up" you can easily play though obviously you
> have to stick to the same bidding conventions everyone knows
>
>> Others are wise and accommodating (and generally
>> get better results with weaker partners).
>
> Victor Mollo covered that point in detail in his books featuring The
> Hideous Hog who was a master level player who was totally ungifted
> when playing with weaker partners and simply could not adjust his play
> to them some of which led to magnificent disasters.

As I recall it the Hog usually succeeds, even with a terrible partner
like the Rabbit, Toucan, or Walrus. Indeed, almost half his hands
as given are with the Rabbit.

But the point is he succeeds the wrong way. By doing things one
shouldn't do. He comments several times that he does not try to
get the best out of his partners, on the grounds that their best
is worse than random chance. If they don't think they might play
the right card, if they do they will not.

He always arranges his bids so as to be declarer. Better that he
declare in a hopeless 3NT which he will probably make than that
the Toucan declare in an ice cold 4S which he will probably not
make. Or so he will say.

The Hog is, as well as a Hog, a brilliant player who can virtually
do no wrong. IIRC his Nemesis, Papa (a fine player himself) only
gets the better of him once.

But the Rabbit does so many times as luck is on his side. Part of
the fun of looking at his hands is trying to see how he will think
he is making the hand, as opposed to how it is actually made (he
plays for an impossible squeeze but winds up playing the Devil's
coup, for example).

Any of these books
> is tremendously entertaining though I can't imagine it would improve
> your bridge much!

I picked up five from amazon a few years ago. I wish there were more.

>
>> You will do better in bridge if you are always respectful of your
>> partner, no matter what idiotic action partner has made. Remember
>> that you yourself make the occasional idiotic play.
>
> Mollo did finish all these books with a chapter on how not to be the
> "Hideous Hog"

This was left out of my editions.

William Hyde

Re: The psychology of chess?

<utptt8$hm8i$1@dont-email.me>

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From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.misc
Subject: Re: The psychology of chess?
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 15:11:34 -0400
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 by: William Hyde - Sun, 24 Mar 2024 19:11 UTC

The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 14:41:28 -0400, William Hyde
> <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> That's always our problem in Canada. Nine out of ten times the event
>> you want to see or play in is over a thousand kilometers away.
>>
>> I've never actually been able to play in the Canadian Open when it
>> has been held in Toronto. But I had the time and money to play in
>> Ottawa and Quebec city (and almost, almost, Vancouver, but alas not
>> quite).
>>
> I haven't played in a Canadian Open since 1971 when in round one I was
> clearly winning against a player rating 150 above me. I snatched an h
> pawn with my bishop which was immediately trapped, put my head in my
> hands and looked up. (Our game was on the main aisle to the top
> boards)
>
> I looked up and saw none other than Boris Spasky watching my board and
> I saw him shake his head sadly and turn away. 50 years later I still
> wonder if he remembered that sad looking kid in Vancouver when Fischer
> snatched the h-pawn in round one of his match with Spassky in
> Reykjavik.He's now 87 and very much still alive but I will always
> remember that day.

My guess would be that he recalled it very well.

In September of that year Spassky played at the CNE open in Toronto.
Had I won my first four games I might have been paired with him, but
I fell just three games short of that target.

Most unusually for the time, the event featured six GMs, with
Benko and Byrne winning at 6-0. Canadian players scored some
upsets, with Day drawing with Spassky, Lipnowski beating Browne,
and Delva beating Bisguier.

Toronto was cursed for Browne. In my second weekend Swiss Browne
finished 3.5/6. As he insisted he was winning the adjourned
round 5 position he was paired up for the last round. But he was
meeting Ivan Theodorovic who was 5-0. What he didn't know was
that Theodorovic always won his last round game if he went 5-0.
A mere GM couldn't break that streak.

I only attended one round of the 76 open in Toronto, just in time to see
Browne storm off after losing to Amos (the game is here:
https://kevinspraggettonchess.wordpress.com/2011/08/11/the-1976-canadian-open-in-toronto/).

William Hyde

Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.misc
Subject: Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)
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 by: The Horny Goat - Tue, 26 Mar 2024 22:09 UTC

On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 14:46:54 -0400, William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> You will do better in bridge if you are always respectful of your
>>> partner, no matter what idiotic action partner has made. Remember
>>> that you yourself make the occasional idiotic play.
>>
>> Mollo did finish all these books with a chapter on how not to be the
>> "Hideous Hog"
>
That's true of most any partnership game where you intend to play more
than one round of play. (Or 'hand' if you prefer)

I'm NOT a good bridge player - the kind of memory you have to have to
be a good Bridge player is entirely different from what you need to
excel at Chess.

Re: The psychology of chess?

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.misc
Subject: Re: The psychology of chess?
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 by: The Horny Goat - Tue, 26 Mar 2024 22:18 UTC

On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 15:11:34 -0400, William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>My guess would be that he recalled it very well.
>
>In September of that year Spassky played at the CNE open in Toronto.
>Had I won my first four games I might have been paired with him, but
>I fell just three games short of that target.
>
>Most unusually for the time, the event featured six GMs, with
>Benko and Byrne winning at 6-0. Canadian players scored some
>upsets, with Day drawing with Spassky, Lipnowski beating Browne,
>and Delva beating Bisguier.
>
>Toronto was cursed for Browne. In my second weekend Swiss Browne
>finished 3.5/6. As he insisted he was winning the adjourned
>round 5 position he was paired up for the last round. But he was
>meeting Ivan Theodorovic who was 5-0. What he didn't know was
>that Theodorovic always won his last round game if he went 5-0.
>A mere GM couldn't break that streak.
>
>I only attended one round of the 76 open in Toronto, just in time to see
>Browne storm off after losing to Amos (the game is here:
>https://kevinspraggettonchess.wordpress.com/2011/08/11/the-1976-canadian-open-in-toronto/).

Great stories - and while I didn't know Delva I knew the rest of the
Canadian players you name. Which is not surprising for an
international arbiter (guilty) who has lived in Vancouver, southern
Ontario and Winnipeg.

(I was the one primarily responsible for getting Abe Yanofsky off the
international arbiter list two years after his death - it seems
everybody at FIDE knew he was a GM but had forgotten the other title.

I also had the dubious "honor" of being one of two BC international
arbiters who FIDE got our gender wrong. Hint: I'm not female and the
late Lynn Stringer wasn't male! That got fixed in near record time
with an e-mail to Canada's FIDE rep...)

Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)

<d1b348b8-bbd2-e69c-d564-e9a5315016a0@example.net>

 copy mid

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From: nos...@example.net (D)
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Subject: Re: OT: Re: The psychology of chess? (Bridge?)
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 10:13:00 +0100
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 by: D - Wed, 27 Mar 2024 09:13 UTC

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024, The Horny Goat wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 14:46:54 -0400, William Hyde
> <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> You will do better in bridge if you are always respectful of your
>>>> partner, no matter what idiotic action partner has made. Remember
>>>> that you yourself make the occasional idiotic play.
>>>
>>> Mollo did finish all these books with a chapter on how not to be the
>>> "Hideous Hog"
>>
> That's true of most any partnership game where you intend to play more
> than one round of play. (Or 'hand' if you prefer)
>
> I'm NOT a good bridge player - the kind of memory you have to have to
> be a good Bridge player is entirely different from what you need to
> excel at Chess.
>

What's the difference? I remember seeing a documentary a year ago about
Judith Polgar and that the memory of chess players seems to be the same
memory that is engaged when memorizing faces. But in chess players it's
chess positions instead of faces.

What type of memory is valuable in bridge?

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