Stick's BGOnline website is moribund, but there's some very
interesting content buried inside there. I decided to try to
extract some interesting posts that I knew were in there, and
copy them to my own website for ease of reference:

http://timothychow.net/fun.html#sticksforum

Obviously there is a bias toward my own posts, but others may
find this list of articles interesting, too. For example,
Paul might enjoy the "Firing squad" quiz in light of his
newfound skill in deciding whether to step out to the 18pt.

As other old posts come to mind, I may grow this list, but I
don't intend for it to get too much longer. If Stick is reading
this, I'd encourage him to think about ways to archive the BGO
forums more permanently (i.e., so that it will continue to exist
even after he stops maintaining it). I checked the Wayback
Machine, and it has archived some of the posts, but only a tiny
fraction (so far, anyway). The Wayback Machine is probably
willing to archive the entire BGO forums, but the obstacle may
be finding a good way to automate the process.

---
Tim Chow

On Sunday, 9 October 2022 at 03:00:41 UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> Stick's BGOnline website is moribund, but there's some very
> interesting content buried inside there. I decided to try to
> extract some interesting posts that I knew were in there, and
> copy them to my own website for ease of reference:
>
> http://timothychow.net/fun.html#sticksforum
>
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

My browser is obviously having a bad day, nowhere on your website could I see a link to "hawking fast cars around the US for YouTube views".

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 3:00:41 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> Stick's BGOnline website is moribund, but there's some very
> interesting content buried inside there. I decided to try to
> extract some interesting posts that I knew were in there, and
> copy them to my own website for ease of reference:
>
> http://timothychow.net/fun.html#sticksforum
>
> Obviously there is a bias toward my own posts, but others may
> find this list of articles interesting, too. For example,
> Paul might enjoy the "Firing squad" quiz in light of his
> newfound skill in deciding whether to step out to the 18pt.
>
> As other old posts come to mind, I may grow this list, but I
> don't intend for it to get too much longer. If Stick is reading
> this, I'd encourage him to think about ways to archive the BGO
> forums more permanently (i.e., so that it will continue to exist
> even after he stops maintaining it). I checked the Wayback
> Machine, and it has archived some of the posts, but only a tiny
> fraction (so far, anyway). The Wayback Machine is probably
> willing to archive the entire BGO forums, but the obstacle may
> be finding a good way to automate the process.

Thank you for this.
I looked at each firing squad quiz position.
I can't give you an exact score because I didn't have a pen at hand,
and I wasn't disciplined about making a careful note about what my plays would be.

But, as I read through the solutions, I had a very strong feeling of "Yes! That's what I thought"
the great majority of the time. I'm sure I would have done excellently in the quiz and I
feel that my self-promotion as a major move-to-the-18-or-not expert is vindicated.

Paul

On Sunday, 9 October 2022 at 17:26:31 UTC+1, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> But, as I read through the solutions, I had a very strong feeling of "Yes! That's what I thought"
> the great majority of the time. I'm sure I would have done excellently in the quiz and I
> feel that my self-promotion as a major move-to-the-18-or-not expert is vindicated.
>
> Paul

Tim is playing with you.

If you're using an exhaust header with a four-cylinder engine, how many exhaust pipes will you have?

During the exhaust stroke, many engines lose power through?

Nitrous oxide improves engine performance by providing more what?

Basic stuff for Tim (aka Alex) but go for it.

Timothy Chow <tchow12000@yahoo.com> writes:

> Stick's BGOnline website is moribund, but there's some very
> interesting content buried inside there.

Indeed, it was a valuable forum. At some point it somehow stopped rather
abruptly, but because I was only an infrequent reader and even more
infrequent poster, it seem I missed the reason for this. Can someone
please briefly explain? And where are the discussions between Nack, Neil
and all the others taking place now?

Best regards

Axel

On 10/9/2022 10:09 AM, Nasti Chestikov wrote:
> My browser is obviously having a bad day, nowhere on your website could I see a link to "hawking fast cars around the US for YouTube views".

Shhh...that's supposed to be a secret.

---
Tim Chow

On 10/9/2022 12:57 PM, Brenda Robinson wrote:
> On Sunday, 9 October 2022 at 17:26:31 UTC+1, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> But, as I read through the solutions, I had a very strong feeling of "Yes! That's what I thought"
>> the great majority of the time. I'm sure I would have done excellently in the quiz and I
>> feel that my self-promotion as a major move-to-the-18-or-not expert is vindicated.
>>
>> Paul
>
> Tim is playing with you.
>
> If you're using an exhaust header with a four-cylinder engine, how many exhaust pipes will you have?
>
> During the exhaust stroke, many engines lose power through?
>
> Nitrous oxide improves engine performance by providing more what?
>
> Basic stuff for Tim (aka Alex) but go for it.

Hey, another Murat alter ego! Welcome to r.g.b.

---
Tim Chow

On 10/9/2022 4:17 PM, Axel Reichert wrote:
> Timothy Chow <tchow12000@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Stick's BGOnline website is moribund, but there's some very
>> interesting content buried inside there.
>
> Indeed, it was a valuable forum. At some point it somehow stopped rather
> abruptly, but because I was only an infrequent reader and even more
> infrequent poster, it seem I missed the reason for this. Can someone
> please briefly explain? And where are the discussions between Nack, Neil
> and all the others taking place now?

IMO, the biggest reason was that there were major server problems,
which meant that the site was down for a long period of time. So
people got out of the habit of visiting the site, and once that
happened, it was hard to reboot it. Even now, there are server
problems---pages take forever to load.

A secondary reason is that the discussion migrated elsewhere---to
Facebook, I think, but I can't personally confirm that because I'm
not on Facebook. BGO was already declining in popularity when the
server problems kicked in, so it might have fizzled out anyway, but
I'm sure it would have lasted longer than it did if there weren't
any server problems.

---
Tim Chow

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 6:56:36 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 10/9/2022 4:17 PM, Axel Reichert wrote:
> > Timothy Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> >> Stick's BGOnline website is moribund, but there's some very
> >> interesting content buried inside there.
> >
> > Indeed, it was a valuable forum. At some point it somehow stopped rather
> > abruptly, but because I was only an infrequent reader and even more
> > infrequent poster, it seem I missed the reason for this. Can someone
> > please briefly explain? And where are the discussions between Nack, Neil
> > and all the others taking place now?
> IMO, the biggest reason was that there were major server problems,
> which meant that the site was down for a long period of time. So
> people got out of the habit of visiting the site, and once that
> happened, it was hard to reboot it. Even now, there are server
> problems---pages take forever to load.
>
> A secondary reason is that the discussion migrated elsewhere---to
> Facebook, I think, but I can't personally confirm that because I'm
> not on Facebook. BGO was already declining in popularity when the
> server problems kicked in, so it might have fizzled out anyway, but
> I'm sure it would have lasted longer than it did if there weren't
> any server problems.
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

Not really the reasons at all. I'll reply later when I have time.

Stick

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 8:14:20 PM UTC+1, Stick Rice wrote:
> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 6:56:36 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> > On 10/9/2022 4:17 PM, Axel Reichert wrote:
> > > Timothy Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > >
> > >> Stick's BGOnline website is moribund, but there's some very
> > >> interesting content buried inside there.
> > >
> > > Indeed, it was a valuable forum. At some point it somehow stopped rather
> > > abruptly, but because I was only an infrequent reader and even more
> > > infrequent poster, it seem I missed the reason for this. Can someone
> > > please briefly explain? And where are the discussions between Nack, Neil
> > > and all the others taking place now?
> > IMO, the biggest reason was that there were major server problems,
> > which meant that the site was down for a long period of time. So
> > people got out of the habit of visiting the site, and once that
> > happened, it was hard to reboot it. Even now, there are server
> > problems---pages take forever to load.
> >
> > A secondary reason is that the discussion migrated elsewhere---to
> > Facebook, I think, but I can't personally confirm that because I'm
> > not on Facebook. BGO was already declining in popularity when the
> > server problems kicked in, so it might have fizzled out anyway, but
> > I'm sure it would have lasted longer than it did if there weren't
> > any server problems.
> >
> > ---
> > Tim Chow
> Not really the reasons at all. I'll reply later when I have time.
>
> Stick

In reality, everyone stopped using it because it was just too expensive.
It cost $0 USD dollars for one year's membership with a
special lifetime subscription cost of $0, and a onetime guest fee of $0.
This could easily add up to as much as $0 for people who used the website
frequently.

Paul

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 6:56:36 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 10/9/2022 4:17 PM, Axel Reichert wrote:
> > Timothy Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> >> Stick's BGOnline website is moribund, but there's some very
> >> interesting content buried inside there.
> >
> > Indeed, it was a valuable forum. At some point it somehow stopped rather
> > abruptly, but because I was only an infrequent reader and even more
> > infrequent poster, it seem I missed the reason for this. Can someone
> > please briefly explain? And where are the discussions between Nack, Neil
> > and all the others taking place now?
> IMO, the biggest reason was that there were major server problems,
> which meant that the site was down for a long period of time. So
> people got out of the habit of visiting the site, and once that
> happened, it was hard to reboot it. Even now, there are server
> problems---pages take forever to load.
>
> A secondary reason is that the discussion migrated elsewhere---to
> Facebook, I think, but I can't personally confirm that because I'm
> not on Facebook. BGO was already declining in popularity when the
> server problems kicked in, so it might have fizzled out anyway, but
> I'm sure it would have lasted longer than it did if there weren't
> any server problems.
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

The site wasn't down, it (the forums) wasn't showing posts properly. I don't know what changed to make it not display properly. To this day it doesn't display properly because I've never taken the time to look into it/find someone who can fix it. If it did display properly I (we) would have already 'restarted' it. The truth is at the time it started having issues I was (and still am obv to an extent) over backgammon. I was the major postwhore on the forums and without me pushing them in several ways they would get somewhat stale. Unfortunately they are needed nowadays. I've had many people contact me about getting them working again because the Facebook discussions that have basically taken their place are unsatisfactory.

I could make the site load faster for you whenever you like. For that all I have to do is reboot the server once in a while. I never do bc I'm never there and never care but give me a heads up and I will for whoever wants to go searching. I just rebooted it now fwiw.

Stick

On 10/13/2022 7:05 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> The site wasn't down, it (the forums) wasn't showing posts properly.
You're right that it wasn't showing posts properly, and that probably
did play some role. But I can testify that the site was inaccessible
to many users for long periods of time. Maybe it wasn't technically
"down," but around that time, I was visiting the site daily, and I
definitely remember not being able to get through for long stretches
at a time (days, even weeks). It might not have been everyone who had
the problem, but it wasn't just me, because other people were
complaining about it, and the traffic dropped precipitously.

If it had been just the display problem, I suspect that the site would
not have died so suddenly. I was okay with using the "Simple List"
format, even though it was obviously inferior to the threaded list
format, and I suspect that others might have soldiered on as well,
enough to keep the site going for at least a little while longer. But
trying for days on end to get through, and not being able to get
through, and finding that nobody has posted in the interim because
they have not been able to get through either, is definitely a downer.
It means that the habit of visiting daily gets broken, and if that
happens to everyone at the same time, then it's hard to restart.

But, I do agree that the lack of your pushing it was also a big factor.
My general impression was that there were three major sources of
traffic.

1. Gossiping about live events.
2. The online match. (OLM)
3. A few postwhores. Stick and I were the main ones initiating new
threads about positions.

I think that the OLM basically stopped happening after mid-2016 because
Jason Lee didn't have time for it anymore, and nobody else took up the
mantle. Gossiping can easily migrate elsewhere. It's the discussion of
positions and the commentary by "name" players that gave BGO its
distinctive "brand." After Stick and I both stopped investing in the
site that way, the handwriting was on the wall.

Regarding the speed of the pages loading, I tried just now and it still
sucks. It takes at least 5 seconds to load a page. If I click on
"Return to Index" it takes more than 10 seconds. This by itself may
not be a complete dealbreaker, but it's definitely a drag, especially
for people who are posting and may want to view several drafts before
committing to a post.

---
Tim Chow

On 10/14/2022 12:47 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> On 10/13/2022 7:05 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> > The site wasn't down, it (the forums) wasn't showing posts properly.
>
> You're right that it wasn't showing posts properly, and that probably
> did play some role.  But I can testify that the site was inaccessible
> to many users for long periods of time.  Maybe it wasn't technically
> "down," but around that time, I was visiting the site daily, and I
> definitely remember not being able to get through for long stretches
> at a time (days, even weeks).  It might not have been everyone who had
> the problem, but it wasn't just me, because other people were
> complaining about it, and the traffic dropped precipitously.

Just to give some evidence for what I said above---here's a link to a
post I made on June 17, 2019.

http://www.bgonline.org/forums/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=210269

I couldn't get to BGO using the normal method and had to use a
workaround. If you read some of the replies, you'll see that, strictly
speaking, the site probably wasn't completely "down," but other people
were having similar problems, and the traffic dropped rather suddenly.

Things seemed to get only worse from then on. Here's a post from Terje
Pedersen from January 24, 2020. He was one of the last holdouts, but he
remarked that "The forum has been a bit unstable recently with a lot of
downtime?"

http://www.bgonline.org/forums/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=210533

---
Tim Chow

On Sunday, October 16, 2022 at 6:55:36 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 10/14/2022 12:47 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > On 10/13/2022 7:05 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> > > The site wasn't down, it (the forums) wasn't showing posts properly.
> >
> > You're right that it wasn't showing posts properly, and that probably
> > did play some role. But I can testify that the site was inaccessible
> > to many users for long periods of time. Maybe it wasn't technically
> > "down," but around that time, I was visiting the site daily, and I
> > definitely remember not being able to get through for long stretches
> > at a time (days, even weeks). It might not have been everyone who had
> > the problem, but it wasn't just me, because other people were
> > complaining about it, and the traffic dropped precipitously.
> Just to give some evidence for what I said above---here's a link to a
> post I made on June 17, 2019.
>
> http://www.bgonline.org/forums/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=210269
>
> I couldn't get to BGO using the normal method and had to use a
> workaround. If you read some of the replies, you'll see that, strictly
> speaking, the site probably wasn't completely "down," but other people
> were having similar problems, and the traffic dropped rather suddenly.
>
> Things seemed to get only worse from then on. Here's a post from Terje
> Pedersen from January 24, 2020. He was one of the last holdouts, but he
> remarked that "The forum has been a bit unstable recently with a lot of
> downtime?"
>
> http://www.bgonline.org/forums/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=210533
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

When you say 'site' you mean 'forums' and again, it was what I said. I don't even care to argue about it though.

Stick

On 10/17/2022 11:00 PM, Stick Rice wrote:

> When you say 'site' you mean 'forums' and again, it was what I said. I don't even care to argue about it though.

The main thing you said that was highly confusing was that the main
problem was that the forums were not "displaying properly." This makes
it sound like you were referring to the way the threaded list feature
was broken and how the default display would not actually display all
the posts it was supposed to. These were annoying but I for one did
not regard them as being dealbreakers.

In my opinion, a much bigger contributor to the death of BGO was that
users attempting to view the posts either could not get through at all,
or could get through only via a weird workaround, or (even now) that the
pages take too long to load. If the inability to get through at all, or
the extremely long load times, are what you meant by "not displaying
properly," then I have no argument.

---
Tim Chow

On October 9, 2022 at 2:17:31 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:

> At some point it somehow stopped rather abruptly.....
> Can someone please briefly explain? And where are
> the discussions between Nack, Neil and all the others
> taking place now?

I have similar questions, if anyone cares to answer.

Why was BGOnline created in the first place? What
was the need for it? And why by Stick of all people?

At some point, RGB had stopped being "the mother
of all BG forums". Many people had started creating
personal blogs with some requiring paid membership.

Apparently many people had left RGB to participate
in those, including Stick's forum. Do they still exist?

Also, what is the size of current BG "community"? It
seems the have dwindled in general. Looking at the
USBGF membership revenues/fees, it seems like it's
less than 1,000. Are there more accurate estimates?

What about in other countries and world-wide?

MK

On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 5:30:15 PM UTC-4, MK wrote:
> On October 9, 2022 at 2:17:31 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
>
> > At some point it somehow stopped rather abruptly.....
> > Can someone please briefly explain? And where are
> > the discussions between Nack, Neil and all the others
> > taking place now?
> I have similar questions, if anyone cares to answer.
>
> Why was BGOnline created in the first place? What
> was the need for it? And why by Stick of all people?
>
> At some point, RGB had stopped being "the mother
> of all BG forums". Many people had started creating
> personal blogs with some requiring paid membership.
>
> Apparently many people had left RGB to participate
> in those, including Stick's forum. Do they still exist?
>
> Also, what is the size of current BG "community"? It
> seems the have dwindled in general. Looking at the
> USBGF membership revenues/fees, it seems like it's
> less than 1,000. Are there more accurate estimates?
>
> What about in other countries and world-wide?
>
> MK

BGO was created, by me of all people, because I felt like it. Wasn't necessarily a need for it, it was something I wanted to do so I did it. My forums have always been and will always be free for all. Kit had forums at the time that were the same set up, cost some amount, like $35 for a lifetime membership (or maybe yearly, I forget) or something, but aside from the online match they were rather dead. And again, only allowed those who paid for a membership. Kit eventually sold one of his sites and started another (gammonu?) and I believe the latter is also defunct.

Hardy used to run forums, albeit in German, but still useful for positions and one can always translate. They are dead now. (http://forum.hardyhuebener.de/backgammon/)

There is still a discussion area that is active at dailygammon.com You need a login to access it I believe (free). (http://dailygammon.com/bg/forum2)

Two plus Two is still alive but Robertie runs it and I'll leave it at that.
(https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/138/backgammon-forum-hosted-bill-robertie/)

The French Federation ran some sort of forums that I used to participate in but I can't find them with a quick search. If they still exist they should be findable via https://www.ffbg.fr/la-federation

If you're a member of the USBGF they at least have a group that has an OLM series with Kazaross running it. They used to have something similar to forums but I'm not sure they still do as my membership is expired and I can't access that part of the site any more. It looks to be changed though and nothing that blatantly jumps out as *forums.

People talk about bg on reddit of course. Rarely is there anything worth reading but it's worth stopping by once a week to check in.

That's all that immediately comes to mind.

Stick

On 10/21/2022 6:48 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> That's all that immediately comes to mind.

What about Facebook? I've never had a Facebook account so I don't
know how it's structured, but people occasionally mention Facebook
(e.g., BlueDice recently alluded to Facebook).

---
Tim Chow

On October 21, 2022 at 4:48:51 PM UTC-6, Stick Rice wrote:

> BGO was created, by me of all people, because I felt like it.

Thanks for your detailed reply. By saying "of all people",
I didn't mean to make less of you in any way, within the
context, and I apologize if it came accross that way.

> Wasn't necessarily a need for it, it was something I
> wanted to do so I did it. My forums have always been
> and will always be free for all.

The reason I asked was that, at some point in the past,
some people had started asking for alternative forums
where people like me could be controlled or kept out.

I have always been against privately owned forums and
have hardly particiapted in them because of censorship
and ownership concerns. However, I don't mind reading
archived posts from such forums or blogs. I often follow
link posted here to read articles from your forum and I
also search it for what was said on certain topics.

> My forums have always been and will always be free for all.

In addition to not trying to make a buck from it, I think
you need to be commended for having ran a forum for
almost 16 years, with over 207K posts from dozens of
people.

> Hardy used to run forums, albeit in German, but still useful

His forum page is not accessible. Other pages do open
but may be mostly obsolete being last updated in 2010.

> There is still a discussion area that is active at dailygammon

That site was also last updated in November 2010.

> Two plus Two is still alive but Robertie runs it and I'll leave
> it at that.

It's not fair to make us curious and not tell us why... ;)

> The French Federation ran some sort of forums.....
> If you're a member of the USBGF they at least have.....

I joined USBGF and GammonSite2000 during the 2020
pandemic but they had not much appealing for me and
I haven't renewed.

> People talk about bg on reddit of course. Rarely is there
> anything worth reading but it's worth stopping by once a
> week to check in.

Other than the Reddit pages that come up as a result of
general web searches, I've never used it for any specific
reason.

Tim mentioned Facebook a few times. I had an account
for a while in the past and had checked some BG pages
there but hadn't found anything very interestin there either.

For me, RGB is it!

MK