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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: Rollout: 4pt or 9pt?

SubjectAuthor
* 4pt or 9pt?Timothy Chow
+- Re: 4pt or 9pt?ah...Clem
`* Rollout: 4pt or 9pt?Timothy Chow
 `* Re: Rollout: 4pt or 9pt?Stick Rice
  `- Re: Rollout: 4pt or 9pt?MK

1
4pt or 9pt?

<tjvg73$1d35e$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: 4pt or 9pt?
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 00:31:31 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Thu, 3 Nov 2022 04:31 UTC

XGID=-a-a-CB-C-C-cD---aabbbb---:0:0:1:41:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O O O O |
| X | | O O O O |
| X | | |
| X | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| O X X | | X |
| O X X | | X X |
| O X X | | X X O O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 133 O: 136 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 41

---
Tim Chow

Re: 4pt or 9pt?

<tk3jpi$1ie4u$2@dont-email.me>

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah...Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: 4pt or 9pt?
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 13:57:07 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: ah...Clem - Fri, 4 Nov 2022 17:57 UTC

On 11/3/2022 12:31 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> XGID=-a-a-CB-C-C-cD---aabbbb---:0:0:1:41:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
>  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>  | X           O  O |   | O  O  O  O       |
>  | X                |   | O  O  O  O       |
>  | X                |   |                  |
>  | X                |   |                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |BAR|                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  | O     X     X    |   |    X             |
>  | O     X     X    |   | X  X             |
>  | O     X     X    |   | X  X     O     O |
>  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count  X: 133  O: 136 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 41

Making the four point strips the 8 and 5 while leaving the midpoint
stacked. Making the nine point looks more flexible and does a better job
at containment. If the game plan is to prime, then the nine looks
superior - we'll never make a prime that includes both the ten and the
four points.

So, I'll make the nine point here.

Rollout: 4pt or 9pt?

<tk5qmh$2fnk7$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Rollout: 4pt or 9pt?
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2022 10:07:13 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Sat, 5 Nov 2022 14:07 UTC

XGID=-a-a-CB-C-C-cD---aabbbb---:0:0:1:41:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O O O O |
| X | | O O O O |
| X | | |
| X | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| O X X | | X |
| O X X | | X X |
| O X X | | X X O O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 133 O: 136 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 41

I'm tempted to claim that all other things being equal, the 4pt
is usually slightly better than the 9pt. The trouble is, all
other things are rarely equal. If you search the BGOnline archives
for "4pt vs 9pt chow" you'll find about a dozen problems of this
type.

In the case at hand, I think ah...Clem analyzed it well, and came
up with XG's play of 13/9 10/9.

1. Rollout¹ 13/9 10/9 eq:+0.756
Player: 70.76% (G:7.53% B:0.18%)
Opponent: 29.24% (G:3.17% B:0.07%)
Confidence: ±0.014 (+0.742..+0.770) - [100.0%]

2. Rollout¹ 8/4 5/4 eq:+0.681 (-0.075)
Player: 69.21% (G:5.34% B:0.15%)
Opponent: 30.79% (G:2.63% B:0.05%)
Confidence: ±0.011 (+0.670..+0.692) - [0.0%]

¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

---
Tim Chow

Re: Rollout: 4pt or 9pt?

<44f2eb74-f61f-4f61-870f-02423b068275n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Rollout: 4pt or 9pt?
From: bananabo...@gmail.com (Stick Rice)
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 by: Stick Rice - Sat, 5 Nov 2022 17:15 UTC

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 10:07:15 AM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> XGID=-a-a-CB-C-C-cD---aabbbb---:0:0:1:41:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O O | | O O O O |
> | X | | O O O O |
> | X | | |
> | X | | |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | O X X | | X |
> | O X X | | X X |
> | O X X | | X X O O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 133 O: 136 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 41
> I'm tempted to claim that all other things being equal, the 4pt
> is usually slightly better than the 9pt. The trouble is, all
> other things are rarely equal. If you search the BGOnline archives
> for "4pt vs 9pt chow" you'll find about a dozen problems of this
> type.
>
> In the case at hand, I think ah...Clem analyzed it well, and came
> up with XG's play of 13/9 10/9.
>
> 1. Rollout¹ 13/9 10/9 eq:+0.756
> Player: 70.76% (G:7.53% B:0.18%)
> Opponent: 29.24% (G:3.17% B:0.07%)
> Confidence: ±0.014 (+0.742..+0.770) - [100.0%]
>
> 2. Rollout¹ 8/4 5/4 eq:+0.681 (-0.075)
> Player: 69.21% (G:5.34% B:0.15%)
> Opponent: 30.79% (G:2.63% B:0.05%)
> Confidence: ±0.011 (+0.670..+0.692) - [0.0%]
>
> ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> Dice Seed: 271828
> Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
>
> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

The short version is "if opponent owns or has a blot on your 3pt then make the 9pt...".

Stick

Re: Rollout: 4pt or 9pt?

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Subject: Re: Rollout: 4pt or 9pt?
From: mur...@compuplus.net (MK)
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 by: MK - Sat, 5 Nov 2022 23:48 UTC

On November 5, 2022 at 11:15:13 AM UTC-6, Stick Rice wrote:

> The short version is "if opponent owns or
> has a blot on your 3pt then make the 9pt...".

I wonder how many times the bot/s would
have followed this "rule of dumb" in Axel's
3,000 games...? :)

Since he won't work for me, he won't count
but if he makes his data public, I will count
and let you all know. :))

MK

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