Is the French defense now unplayable, since Alphazero clobbered it?

--
Rich

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 3:32:53 PM UTC-4, Rich D wrote:
> Is the French defense now unplayable, since Alphazero clobbered it?
>
> --
> Rich

Openings are frequently declared dead, but major systems always come back.

The King's Indian has been declared unsound twice that I know of, the Alekhine
at least as often, and even the Sicilian was described by Tarrasch as unsound.

Tarrasch's own defense to the QG is often out of favour, declared to be refuted,
but eventually comes back, sometimes even in WC play.

Or as Tartakower put it:

"Any opening is good enough to play, if its reputation is bad enough".

William Hyde

Il giorno giovedì 29 giugno 2023 alle 23:14:38 UTC+2 William Hyde ha scritto:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 3:32:53 PM UTC-4, Rich D wrote:
> > Is the French defense now unplayable, since Alphazero clobbered it?
> >
> > --
> > Rich
> Openings are frequently declared dead, but major systems always come back..
>
> The King's Indian has been declared unsound twice that I know of, the Alekhine
> at least as often, and even the Sicilian was described by Tarrasch as unsound.
>
> Tarrasch's own defense to the QG is often out of favour, declared to be refuted,
> but eventually comes back, sometimes even in WC play.
>
> Or as Tartakower put it:
>
> "Any opening is good enough to play, if its reputation is bad enough".
>
> William Hyde
https://www.endoacustica.com/encrypted-phone.php
encrypted phone

On June 29, William Hyde wrote:
>> Is the French defense now unplayable, since Alphazero clobbered it?
>
> Openings are frequently declared dead, but major systems always come back.
>
> The King's Indian has been declared unsound twice that I know of, the Alekhine
> at least as often, and even the Sicilian was described by Tarrasch as unsound.

Karpov slayed Korchnoi's Dragon Sicilian in a championship match,
the Dragon looked dead. Did anyone find an improvement,
a way to save that line?

--
Rich

On June 29, William Hyde wrote:
> Openings are frequently declared dead, but major systems always come back.
> The King's Indian has been declared unsound twice that I know of, the Alekhine
> at least as often,
There's a Alphazero game on Youtube, it sacrifices a knight
in the Alekhine, on move 3! 1... Nf6, 2... Ne4, 3... Nxf2

And wins! Unbelievable.

--
Rich

On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 5:03:51 PM UTC-4, Rich D wrote:
> On June 29, William Hyde wrote:
> >> Is the French defense now unplayable, since Alphazero clobbered it?
> >
> > Openings are frequently declared dead, but major systems always come back.
> >
> > The King's Indian has been declared unsound twice that I know of, the Alekhine
> > at least as often, and even the Sicilian was described by Tarrasch as unsound.
> Karpov slayed Korchnoi's Dragon Sicilian in a championship match,
> the Dragon looked dead.

It always does to people who take one particular game as definitive.

Did anyone find an improvement,
> a way to save that line?

The Yugoslav attack is not considered a refutation of the dragon. After this game
the Soltis variation (black does not allow h5) became popular.

The dragon continued to be played at top levels after this game.

If I were a professional chess player I would keep an eye out for these "variation x is dead"
pronouncements. Playing x against selected opponents could yield some easy wins.

William Hyde

In addition to his 'this parrot is not dead' post by Bill Hyde, there is also the difficulty of actually performing over the board to deliver the denouement in real time [not from any timeless theoretical space] — but how many people can do that against a live opponent while the clock is ticking? Is that a deviation from his supposed best move, and if I continue my plan, will that make difficulties for me? Is that a trap? This takes the game beyond memorization and into an investigation of the dynamics of the position, meanwhile tick tick tick ...

I even play the KG in correspondence chess — you know, 1.e4 e5, 2. f4 and the joke is white is almost equal! It is interesting howsomever to note a reluctance to play normal black lines even though they can be equalizing, since who knows them as well as the player who volunteers the gambit initially? Best book line is probably to get in Bc5 as black but white doesn't have to move the Ng1, and can continue other development and if Bxg1 the result after Q-side castling is to throw the kitchen sink at the black K-side, and if you like being aggressive you can have 30 moves initiative.

World Champ candidate Adorjan told me he couldn't remember the refutation of the Traxler, so he would have to work it out OTB :(

That would be the way Black likes it.

Phil Innes

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 2:52:48 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
> On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 5:03:51 PM UTC-4, Rich D wrote:
> > On June 29, William Hyde wrote:
> > >> Is the French defense now unplayable, since Alphazero clobbered it?
> > >
> > > Openings are frequently declared dead, but major systems always come back.
> > >
> > > The King's Indian has been declared unsound twice that I know of, the Alekhine
> > > at least as often, and even the Sicilian was described by Tarrasch as unsound.
> > Karpov slayed Korchnoi's Dragon Sicilian in a championship match,
> > the Dragon looked dead.
> It always does to people who take one particular game as definitive.
> Did anyone find an improvement,
> > a way to save that line?
> The Yugoslav attack is not considered a refutation of the dragon. After this game
> the Soltis variation (black does not allow h5) became popular.
>
> The dragon continued to be played at top levels after this game.
>
> If I were a professional chess player I would keep an eye out for these "variation x is dead"
> pronouncements. Playing x against selected opponents could yield some easy wins.
>
> William Hyde

On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 1:23:28 PM UTC-4, Phil Innes wrote:
> In addition to his 'this parrot is not dead' post by Bill Hyde, there is also the difficulty of actually performing over the board to deliver the denouement in real time [not from any timeless theoretical space] — but how many people can do that against a live opponent while the clock is ticking? Is that a deviation from his supposed best move, and if I continue my plan, will that make difficulties for me? Is that a trap? This takes the game beyond memorization and into an investigation of the dynamics of the position, meanwhile tick tick tick ...
>
> I even play the KG in correspondence chess — you know, 1.e4 e5, 2.. f4 and the joke is white is almost equal! It is interesting howsomever to note a reluctance to play normal black lines even though they can be equalizing, since who knows them as well as the player who volunteers the gambit initially? Best book line is probably to get in Bc5 as black but white doesn't have to move the Ng1, and can continue other development and if Bxg1 the result after Q-side castling is to throw the kitchen sink at the black K-side, and if you like being aggressive you can have 30 moves initiative.
>
> World Champ candidate Adorjan told me he couldn't remember the refutation of the Traxler, so he would have to work it out OTB :(
>
> That would be the way Black likes it.

Adorjan might be able to do it. I'd lose without further ado.

While I like playing the From, I didn't risk it against Mike Oliva, a 1900 player I knew in Texas. A specialist in the Bird, he'd
learned the various From lines to move 20, and had studied the resulting endgames as well. But seeing that he was committed
with f4, I was able to transpose to the Guegenidze system, which neither of us knew.
>

Before I began to play like a Real Canadian (TM) I played as black either the French or the Nimzowitsch
in response to 1e4. The French is utterly sound, while the Nimzo was frowned upon at the time. After an
easy win with the French against a far stronger player (I did not then know what a hangover was, or that
even 2000+ rated players get them) I went mostly with the French, but eventually I noticed that I
scored better with the Nimzo.

William Hyde

<snippage>
> > That would be the way Black likes it.
> Adorjan might be able to do it. I'd lose without further ado.
>
> While I like playing the From, I didn't risk it against Mike Oliva, a 1900 player I knew in Texas. A specialist in the Bird, he'd
> learned the various From lines to move 20, and had studied the resulting endgames as well. But seeing that he was committed
> with f4, I was able to transpose to the Guegenidze system, which neither of us knew.

I can't say I know the geology of the Guegenidze, and in the first historic RGCM corres tourney here organized by Rob Mitchell [second was against the USCF board where I got to play their 2000-rated lawyer <grin>] someone from Seattle[?] played the From. So I stuck out e5 in response and then d6 and after Bxd6, then g5 [the extent of my 'book'] in a few more moves was winging it. My opponent said that he checked my subsequent moves on computer which hated them [all] though I enjoyed the romp to the end having the initiative the entire game [which means that if you screw up pursuing it you are toast, says Adorjan]

> Before I began to play like a Real Canadian (TM)

RC{™} ? RCMP at least gets a uniform, a heated truck and a decent hat.

>I played as black either the French or the Nimzowitsch
> in response to 1e4. The French is utterly sound,

I desist from any froggy puns, largely from an absense of wit caused by you people up there seeming to be having a regional barbecue, meanwhile we got the bad-air alert again, and also in Portugal they can smell you. Nothing personal.

Cordially, Phil

>:while the Nimzo was frowned upon at the time. After an
> easy win with the French against a far stronger player (I did not then know what a hangover was, or that
> even 2000+ rated players get them) I went mostly with the French, but eventually I noticed that I
> scored better with the Nimzo.
>
> William Hyde

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 1:08:04 PM UTC-4, Phil Innes wrote:
> <snippage>
> > > That would be the way Black likes it.
> > Adorjan might be able to do it. I'd lose without further ado.
> >
> > While I like playing the From, I didn't risk it against Mike Oliva, a 1900 player I knew in Texas. A specialist in the Bird, he'd
> > learned the various From lines to move 20, and had studied the resulting endgames as well. But seeing that he was committed
> > with f4, I was able to transpose to the Guegenidze system, which neither of us knew.
> I can't say I know the geology of the Guegenidze, and in the first historic RGCM corres tourney here organized by Rob Mitchell [second was against the USCF board where I got to play their 2000-rated lawyer <grin>] someone from Seattle[?] played the From. So I stuck out e5 in response and then d6 and after Bxd6, then g5 [the extent of my 'book'] in a few more moves was winging it. My opponent said that he checked my subsequent moves on computer which hated them [all] though I enjoyed the romp to the end having the initiative the entire game [which means that if you screw up pursuing it you are toast, says Adorjan]

I played the Falkbeer in a similar situation. Didn't know it beyond move three, but I had hints from games that I had played over years before. I was worried
for a while, though.

> > Before I began to play like a Real Canadian (TM)
> RC{™} ? RCMP at least gets a uniform, a heated truck and a decent hat.

Real Canadians play the rat.

> >I played as black either the French or the Nimzowitsch
> > in response to 1e4. The French is utterly sound,
> I desist from any froggy puns, largely from an absense of wit caused by you people up there seeming to be having a regional barbecue, meanwhile we got the bad-air alert again, and also in Portugal they can smell you. Nothing personal.

I fear you are going to have to get used to it. The forests that were the top ecosystem in much of North America are top no more. Absent our
interference, and even with it but more slowly, everything in a wide area of the continent will burn, to be replaced by scrub or possibly more
fire resistant trees as the top ecosystem.

But as chess players we are trained for this. However smoke-filled the air has been this summer, it is as clear as an alpine breeze compared
to the old Toronto chess club, where on a seriously smoky day White might have trouble seeing a8.

William Hyde