Having lashed out at ahClem the other day, I was curious
about what I, he and other people had said about AI bots
in the past. I did some keyword searches in RGB and have
discovered/rediscovered quite a few interesting medley of
items that I will share as of possible interest to you all also.

I have been on Usenet since 1996 but my oldest posts in
RGB seem to be from early 1998. Still, that's over 24 years
of uninterrupted posting here. I wonder if anyone else has
more seniority than mine or even near it? Let's hear you...

As I write, I may give some links to old articles, which you
may find ineresting to read if you can spare the time. Here
is one of the earliest threads where I started talking about
purposefully making "inferior moves against a bot" Jellyfish.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.backgammon/c/eAj4GPf-Z2M/m/0Lrsk5JW8CIJ

My reason was different back then, which was to preempt
cheating moves by the bot that I thought I could predict. I
had to explain my being able to beat the bot somehow. In
fact, I thought FIBS was rigged for the same reason. Being
just a nobody in the BG circles, how else could I be beating
not just bots but "virtual human" players with higher ELO's?

It's ineteresting how I have evolved from that. Yet, I've been
consistent, to this day, that my beating the bots and "virtual
humans" didn't mean that I could beat the strongest human
players in real life because thay can adjust their plays to me.

Already after only a couple of months in RGB, in that article
I was talking about predictability of bots being a weakness
that could be exploited by humans. I was talking about bots
being capable of only a "sterile", "one-track" strategy while
humans could use "flexible" strategies by making "tactical
lesser moves" as part of an overall strategy, etc.

Look how long that thread is, with me having engaged all the
heavy cannons of RGB, in debating against me and against
one another, through detailed lengthy arguments. Dang! Was
I already smart back then. ;) And so polite... :)

By 2008, I was talking about "continuity in the game" for bots
and humans, and "luck" within that context. Probably that was
the first time I argued that the player who gains an advantage
will never lose it until the end of the game, after 4 billion trials,
which later evolved into my calling jackoffski formula based
"cube skill theory" a bullshit.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.backgammon/c/Qrtuz8QKhIE/m/BCelkyXiYHMJ

Unfortunately, by the same time, I had enough of being talked
down and insulted that I had started to swear back at people,
including calling "90% of you dumb shits". (When Paul recently
called the entire RGB newsgroup "bozos", I wonder why I tried
to spare anyone except myself, instead of agreeing with him?)

While reading several older threads or numerous articles each,
I noticed that I didn't see many or even any from ahClem who
was formerly posting simply as "Walt" since 2005 (if not earlier).
He had responded to other people who had commented on my
articles but never directly to me. Wow! If my observation is true,
which he is welcome to negate with examples if wishes, I'll say
that I have never seen nor thought possible such a spite... :(

On the positive side, I ran into a couple of threads from 2010,
which I will post about separately, as hey deserve it.

MK

On 11/8/2022 5:04 PM, MK wrote:
> I have been on Usenet since 1996 but my oldest posts in
> RGB seem to be from early 1998. Still, that's over 24 years
> of uninterrupted posting here. I wonder if anyone else has
> more seniority than mine or even near it? Let's hear you...

I've been on USENET since 1987 or 1988, but didn't get
interested in backgammon until 2005 or so.

---
Tim Chow

On November 8, 2022 at 8:07:35 PM UTC-7, Tim Chow wrote:

> On 11/8/2022 5:04 PM, MK wrote:

>> I have been on Usenet since 1996 but my oldest posts in
>> RGB seem to be from early 1998. Still, that's over 24 years
>> of uninterrupted posting here. I wonder if anyone else has
>> more seniority than mine or even near it? Let's hear you...

> I've been on USENET since 1987 or 1988, but didn't get
> interested in backgammon until 2005 or so.

I wondered when rec.games.backgammon was created
but it may be impossible to find out. The first post that I
can find in Google archive is from July 29, 1991.

Then, I looked at the names of people who posted until
the end of 1991 and was totally surprised to recognize
these two who are still posting:

Bradley Sherman since Aug 5, 1991.
Simon Woodhead since Aug 6, 1991.

Wow! They've been posting here for 31 years, which beats
me by 7 years.

Of course, there may be others who posted for longer than
my 24 years, between 1992 and 2016 or later. I can't spend
the time to look for more familiar names but perhaps they
can identify themselves if they are still here or others can
name some of the ones who had stopped posting.

What may be interesting to do is to read some of those very
early articles to what they were talking about back then...?

MK

On 9/11/2022 2:55 pm, MK wrote:

> Bradley Sherman since Aug 5, 1991.
> Simon Woodhead since Aug 6, 1991.

I remember voting for the creation of RGB (100 votes were required)
but I have no idea exactly when that was. My guess would be late 80s,
based on where I was working at the time.

On 11/8/2022 11:55 PM, MK wrote:
> I wondered when rec.games.backgammon was created
> but it may be impossible to find out. The first post that I
> can find in Google archive is from July 29, 1991.

It was indeed created in late July, 1991.

https://groups.google.com/g/news.announce.newgroups/c/5yxvCXpf3d4/m/6ZVphx8wmfMJ

---
Tim Chow

Timothy Chow <tchow12000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 11/8/2022 11:55 PM, MK wrote:
>> I wondered when rec.games.backgammon was created
>> but it may be impossible to find out. The first post that I
>> can find in Google archive is from July 29, 1991.
>
>It was indeed created in late July, 1991.
>
>https://groups.google.com/g/news.announce.newgroups/c/5yxvCXpf3d4/m/6ZVphx8wmfMJ

That's me at my desk at Cal (alfa.berkely.edu). By that time
it had been a decade since I had played a serious game of BG.

--bks

On November 8, 2022 at 11:00:50 PM UTC-7, Simon Woodhead wrote:

> On 9/11/2022 2:55 pm, MK wrote:

>> Bradley Sherman since Aug 5, 1991.
>> Simon Woodhead since Aug 6, 1991.

> I remember voting for the creation of RGB
> (100 votes were required)

Also at least 2/3 of votes had to be "yes".
I voted "no" for many "moderated" groups.

> but I have no idea exactly when that was.
> My guess would be late 80s, based on
> where I was working at the time.

Tim's link indicates that it was in 1991 and
that there were 35 "no" votes. I wonder who
had what reasons to vote against RGB..??

BTW: 31 years of posting in a Usenet group
deserves some respect. I'll keep it in mind
next time I call you names... ;)

MK

On November 9, 2022 at 8:11:52 AM UTC-7, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:

> Timothy Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> On 11/8/2022 11:55 PM, MK wrote:

>>> The first post that I can find in Google archive
>>> is from July 29, 1991.

>> It was indeed created in late July, 1991.

> That's me at my desk at Cal (alfa.berkely.edu).
> By that time it had been a decade since I had
> played a serious game of BG.

Since there weren't any/many commercial ISP's
until later in 1990's, it seems that most earlier
groups had been created by college students,
often with many people voting as a favor to a
friend, without any real interest in the group.

BTW: Same to you as Simon: 31 years of posting
in a Usenet group deserves some respect. I'll keep
it in mind next time I call you names... ;)

MK

On November 9, 2022 at 7:56:54 AM UTC-7, Tim Chow wrote:

> On 11/8/2022 11:55 PM, MK wrote:

>> The first post that I can find in Google
>> archive is from July 29, 1991.

> It was indeed created in late July, 1991.
> https://groups.google.com/g/news.announce.newgroups/c/5yxvCXpf3d4/m/6ZVphx8wmfMJ

Thanks for digging this up. I see only few
familiar names among the voters, which
may be due to my lack of knowing people.
Or perhaps friends/relatives used to vote
in helping to create new groups(?).

MK

On 11/11/2022 7:02 AM, MK wrote:
> On November 8, 2022 at 11:00:50 PM UTC-7, Simon Woodhead wrote:
>
>> On 9/11/2022 2:55 pm, MK wrote:
>
>>> Bradley Sherman since Aug 5, 1991.
>>> Simon Woodhead since Aug 6, 1991.
>
>> I remember voting for the creation of RGB
>> (100 votes were required)
>
> Also at least 2/3 of votes had to be "yes".
> I voted "no" for many "moderated" groups.

There was also apparently a requirement that the number of "yes"
votes had to exceed the number of "no" votes by at least 100.
Rec.games.backgammon barely satisfied that requirement.

> Tim's link indicates that it was in 1991 and
> that there were 35 "no" votes. I wonder who
> had what reasons to vote against RGB..??

Back then, it was perceived that creating a new group would
generate a non-trivial amount of overhead, and so a new group
had to be "worth it." I'm guessing that the "no" votes were from
people who thought it wasn't "worth it," rather than from people
who had something against r.g.b. Searching around, I found a few
comments suggesting that rec.games.board already existed and that
backgammon posts could live there, until the amount of traffic got
high enough to justify a separate newsgroup.

---
Tim Chow

On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 1:55:34 AM UTC-3, MK wrote:
>
> > On 11/8/2022 5:04 PM, MK wrote:
>
> >> I have been on Usenet since 1996 but my oldest posts in
> >> RGB seem to be from early 1998. Still, that's over 24 years
> >> of uninterrupted posting here. I wonder if anyone else has
> >> more seniority than mine or even near it? Let's hear you...
>
> Then, I looked at the names of people who posted until
> the end of 1991 and was totally surprised to recognize
> these two who are still posting:
>
> Bradley Sherman since Aug 5, 1991.
> Simon Woodhead since Aug 6, 1991.
>
> Wow! They've been posting here for 31 years, which beats
> me by 7 years.
>
> MK

Respect to you guys, MK included.
Now's about time to make arrangements:
https://www.digitaldeath.com

On 11/8/2022 10:07 PM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> On 11/8/2022 5:04 PM, MK wrote:
>> I have been on Usenet since 1996 but my oldest posts in
>> RGB seem to be from early 1998. Still, that's over 24 years
>> of uninterrupted posting here. I wonder if anyone else has
>> more seniority than mine or even near it? Let's hear you...
>
> I've been on USENET since 1987 or 1988, but didn't get
> interested in backgammon until 2005 or so.
>

I'm not sure what this thread is supposed to be about, but now that
someone has brought it up, allow me to offer this little piece of career
advice:

If you're in a job interview, and they ask "What motivates you?"

Don't say "Spite".

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 6:44:48 PM UTC, ah...Clem wrote:
> On 11/8/2022 10:07 PM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > On 11/8/2022 5:04 PM, MK wrote:
> >> I have been on Usenet since 1996 but my oldest posts in
> >> RGB seem to be from early 1998. Still, that's over 24 years
> >> of uninterrupted posting here. I wonder if anyone else has
> >> more seniority than mine or even near it? Let's hear you...
> >
> > I've been on USENET since 1987 or 1988, but didn't get
> > interested in backgammon until 2005 or so.
> >
> I'm not sure what this thread is supposed to be about, but now that
> someone has brought it up, allow me to offer this little piece of career
> advice:
>
> If you're in a job interview, and they ask "What motivates you?"
>
>
> Don't say "Spite".

I would never use the phrase "Walt's spite."
Ah..Clem/Walt/Paul Townsend or whatever else he calls himself is a lovely poster,
in my opinion.
I remember when Monty posted a problem, and, on that thread, there was a lot of
anti-Monty mockery, even though Monty's problem on that particular thread was fine.
So Walt (and I) said (something like) "It's not fair to mock him every time he writes."

Paul

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 5:01:51 PM UTC-3, Paul wrote:
> Ah..Clem/Walt/Paul Townsend or whatever else he calls himself is a lovely poster,
> in my opinion.
> I remember when Monty posted a problem, and, on that thread, there was a lot of
> anti-Monty mockery, even though Monty's problem on that particular thread was fine.
> So Walt (and I) said (something like) "It's not fair to mock him every time he writes."
>
> Paul

Monty vs. "the rubber room boys."
I'd like to have the kind of resiliency Monty used to show back then.

I also gave him due credit in my article "Playing Doublets." One of the positions I used to illustrate the method was a snake-eyes posted by Monty here.

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:00:40 PM UTC, Grunty wrote:
> On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 5:01:51 PM UTC-3, Paul wrote:
> > Ah..Clem/Walt/Paul Townsend or whatever else he calls himself is a lovely poster,
> > in my opinion.
> > I remember when Monty posted a problem, and, on that thread, there was a lot of
> > anti-Monty mockery, even though Monty's problem on that particular thread was fine.
> > So Walt (and I) said (something like) "It's not fair to mock him every time he writes."
> >
> > Paul
> Monty vs. "the rubber room boys."
> I'd like to have the kind of resiliency Monty used to show back then.
>
> I also gave him due credit in my article "Playing Doublets." One of the positions I used to illustrate the method was a snake-eyes posted by Monty here.

Doesn't this chat make you miss Raccoon?
I remember when someone posted a play-double-aces problem.
Then Monty posted his own double-aces problem, saying his problem was similar.
Then Raccoon said "The only way in which it's similar is that the roll is 11"
Raccoon, Monty, Stick. You've just got to love them all!

Paul

On November 11, 2022 at 11:44:48 AM UTC-7, ah...Clem wrote:

> On 11/8/2022 10:07 PM, Timothy Chow wrote:

>> On 11/8/2022 5:04 PM, MK wrote:

>>> I wonder if anyone else has more seniority
>>> than mine or even near it? Let's hear you...

>> I've been on USENET since 1987 or 1988,
>> but didn't get interested in backgammon
>> until 2005 or so.

> I'm not sure what this thread is supposed to
> be about,

About a few things including "your spite for me".

You are a sick coward who can't ignore me but
can't reply to my posts directly either. You do it
indirectly, from behind someone else's reply to
me, like by hiding behind Tim inn this case... :(

> but now that someone has brought it up, allow
> me to offer this little piece of career advice:
> If you're in a job interview, and they ask "What
> motivates you?"
> Don't say "Spite".

Ha ha ha! "Career advice" from a bozo who now
knows better. :) How many times have you been
there already? Ha ha ha!

MK

On November 11, 2022 at 1:01:51 PM UTC-7, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

> On November 11, 2022 at 6:44:48 PM UTC, ah...Clem wrote:

>> If you're in a job interview, and they ask "What motivates you?"
>> Don't say "Spite".

> I would never use the phrase "Walt's spite."

Apparently he has been posting in RGB for about 20
years and I had never used the phrase "Walt's spite"
during all that time either, except now.

But why are you writing these in reply to his post..?

> Ah..Clem/Walt/Paul Townsend or whatever else
> he calls himself is a lovely poster, in my opinion.

Whatever your opinion of him is based on doesn't
apply to me and may or may not apply to others.

> .... there was a lot of anti-Monty mockery .... Walt
> (and I) said (something like) "It's not fair to mock
> him every time he writes."

Oh, wow! That sure makes you both "lovely people".

Now let me tell you my story. "Ah..Clem/Walt/Paul
Townsend" wasn't even on my radar until last week
probably because he never directly conversed with
me and I never noticed that he existed in RGB at all.

Recently, while I was reading old articles here and
there, I noticed that an "Ah..Clem" guy had replied to
others who had commented on my posts but never
replied to mine directly. It wasn't a big deal since
he seemed new in RGB, until I saw (coincidentally;)
in one of your posts that he was previously "Walt".

While doing all sort of other searches among old
RGB posts, I saw Walt's posts as back as in 2000's
but I couldn't remember anything about him. Then
I got curious to see if Walt had ever replied to me
directly. I can't tell the exact numbers but it looked
like he had posted possibly several thousands of
articles, had replied to others who had commented
on my posts several dozens, (if not hundreds?), of
times but had not replied to me directly except only
2 times that I ran accross.

In all his posts about me, he had never said anything
good but always made demeaning, insulting remarks
and also urging others to do the same in some ways.

Here are the 2 times that he had replied to me directly:

Once as Ah..Clem not too long ago.
============================================
On 10/31/2020 8:01 PM, MK wrote:

[crap snipped]

Didn't you hear? All "X bot cheats with the dice"
threads have been moved over to Bill Robertie's site.

Please post at https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/
138/backgammon-forum-hosted-bill-robertie/merge-
eliminate-rigtard-threads-1780302/

Thanks.
============================================

And once a much meaner one as Walt ten years earlier.
============================================
On 4/3/2012 12:15 AM, muratk wrote:

> On Apr 2, 4:01 pm, Michael Petch <mpe...@capp-sysware.com> wrote

>> On 01/04/2012 2:24 AM, muratk wrote:

>> Boot up your favorite Linux Live CD, and at a
>> command prompt do:
>> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=10M

> Aaw maan, do I have to type all that manually...? :(

Not at all. Simply run

rm -rf

Much cleaner, simpler, and guaranteed to remove everything.

--//Walt
============================================

Lovely, eh? In all my 24 years in RGB, I swore and insulted
so many people, so many times and so many people have
swore and insulted me so many times, but we all kept on
conversing without holding an everlasting grudge, not even
Tim and I. :) I have never seen a "spite" like Walt's. :(

Hard to believe but hardly a big deal for me since I hadn't
even noticed he existed. I wonder what such a long spite
can do to one but I won't even pretend to feel bad for him.

MK