The Spanish Flu ended without vaccines!!
Spanish flu: History
2.1 Timeline
2.1.1 First wave of early 1918
2.1.2 Deadly second wave of late 1918
2.1.3 Third wave of 1919
2.1.4 Fourth wave of 1920
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

On 8/30/21 6:30 PM, Dave P. wrote:
> The Spanish Flu ended without vaccines!!
> Spanish flu: History
> 2.1 Timeline
> 2.1.1 First wave of early 1918
> 2.1.2 Deadly second wave of late 1918
> 2.1.3 Third wave of 1919
> 2.1.4 Fourth wave of 1920
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu
>

This has got to be the stupidest post I've seen in while.

Yeah all previous pandemics ended without vaccines when there weren't
any vaccines. Try counting the dead jerk.

DUH.

Bernard T. Higonnet wrote:
> Dave P. wrote:
> > The Spanish Flu ended without vaccines!!
> > Spanish flu: History
> > 2.1 Timeline
> > 2.1.1 First wave of early 1918
> > 2.1.2 Deadly second wave of late 1918
> > 2.1.3 Third wave of 1919
> > 2.1.4 Fourth wave of 1920
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu
> >
> This has got to be the stupidest post I've seen in while.
>
> Yeah all previous pandemics ended without vaccines when there weren't
> any vaccines. Try counting the dead jerk.
-----------
Why did the scientists call for Zero Population Growth
50 years ago? For Kicks? No, they were looking at out
eco-footprint & extrapolating into the future, & nobody
else was! Nothing was debunked; it was ignored!
.....
.....
....

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 3:21:14 AM UTC-5, Dave P. wrote:
> Bernard T. Higonnet wrote:
> > Dave P. wrote:
> > > The Spanish Flu ended without vaccines!!
> > > Spanish flu: History
> > > 2.1 Timeline
> > > 2.1.1 First wave of early 1918
> > > 2.1.2 Deadly second wave of late 1918
> > > 2.1.3 Third wave of 1919
> > > 2.1.4 Fourth wave of 1920
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu
> > >
> > This has got to be the stupidest post I've seen in while.
> >
> > Yeah all previous pandemics ended without vaccines when there weren't
> > any vaccines. Try counting the dead jerk.
> -----------
> Why did the scientists call for Zero Population Growth
> 50 years ago? For Kicks? No, they were looking at out
> eco-footprint & extrapolating into the future, & nobody
> else was! Nothing was debunked; it was ignored!
> ....
> ....
> ...

"The 1918 influenza pandemic was the most severe pandemic in recent history.. It was caused by an H1N1 virus with genes of avian origin. Although there is not universal consensus regarding where the virus originated, it spread worldwide during 1918-1919. In the United States, it was first identified in military personnel in spring 1918. It is estimated that about 500 million people or one-third of the world’s population became infected with this virus. The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States."
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1918-pandemic-h1n1.html

At an estimated 50 million deaths worldwide, it's far more severe than what we are going through now, however, without a vaccine now we might have seen worse. My uncle, as a newborn, died from this.

In <b392a9a0-f806-4fa9-ae11-2fb6dba2e31bn@googlegroups.com> Enrjyzr B <enrjyzr@gmail.com> writes:

[snip]

>"The 1918 influenza pandemic was the most severe pandemic in recent history=
>. It was caused by an H1N1 virus with genes of avian origin. Although there=
> is not universal consensus regarding where the virus originated, it spread=
> worldwide during 1918-1919. In the United States, it was first identified=
> in military personnel in spring 1918. It is estimated that about 500 milli=
>on people or one-third of the world=E2=80=99s population became infected wi=
>th this virus. The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million=
> worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States."
>https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1918-pandemic-h1n1.html

>At an estimated 50 million deaths worldwide, it's far more severe than what=
> we are going through now, however, without a vaccine now we might have see=
>n worse. My uncle, as a newborn, died from this.

a _hefty_ chunk of those deaths in 1918/1920 were
courtesy of _dehydration_ from the flu. This is
something that is now readily treated in any
properly equipped/staffed medical facility.

That intervention, just by itself, probably
reduces the death rate by half (wild
assed guess...)

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

If we ever get through this pandemic, nothing will be learned. No
precautions will be put in place, no procedures will be created. And the
Chinese scientists who created the virus will face no punishment, nor
will the government of People's Republic of China who funded it.

On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 14:51:06 -0700, Travoltron
<travoltron@defender.uni> wrote:

>If we ever get through this pandemic, nothing will be learned. No
>precautions will be put in place, no procedures will be created. And the
>Chinese scientists who created the virus will face no punishment, nor
>will the government of People's Republic of China who funded it.

It almost doesn't matter who created it. I mean, sure, *morally* it
does, but as a *practical* matter after almost two fucking years of a
gleeful cycle of spreading and denying and denying and spreading the
current death toll is largely on our own ignorant, stupid,
overbreeding heads.

We could have dealt with this up-front like adults, shut down to the
greatest extent possible early on and gotten over it, but we're The
United Motherfucking Shits of AmeriKKKrap, where the only thing nearly
as important as "the economy" is gleefully committing mass suicide.

It's gonna be over a million dead in this country by the time it
(hopefully) ends and the majority of those deaths will have been
entirely preventable. If, that is, enough people had given enough of a
fucking shit to prevent them and had been given actual leaders who
cared about something other than jacking off to the carnage.

All birth is abuse.

, Enrjyzr B wrote:
> Dave P. wrote:
> > Bernard T. Higonnet wrote:
> > > Dave P. wrote:
> > > > The Spanish Flu ended without vaccines!!
> > > > Spanish flu: History
> > > > 2.1 Timeline
> > > > 2.1.1 First wave of early 1918
> > > > 2.1.2 Deadly second wave of late 1918
> > > > 2.1.3 Third wave of 1919
> > > > 2.1.4 Fourth wave of 1920
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu
> > > >
> > > This has got to be the stupidest post I've seen in while.
> > >
> > > Yeah all previous pandemics ended without vaccines when there weren't
> > > any vaccines. Try counting the dead jerk.
> > -----------
> > Why did the scientists call for Zero Population Growth
> > 50 years ago? For Kicks? No, they were looking at out
> > eco-footprint & extrapolating into the future, & nobody
> > else was! Nothing was debunked; it was ignored! .
> > ...
> "The 1918 influenza pandemic.....The number of deaths was estimated
> to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the US."
> https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1918-pandemic-h1n1.html
>
> At an estimated 50 million deaths worldwide, it's far more severe than what
> we are going thru now, however, without a vaccine now we might have
> seen worse. My uncle, as a newborn, died from this.
---------------
If we had globally taken proper steps to control
population, 50 years ago, when the scientists called for
ZPG, we could have decreased the possibility of climate
change, the refugee crisis, environmental degradation,
decimation of wildlife, and novel zoonotic diseases!
----
-----

"Dave P." <imbibe@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8cee4238-d0d4-4be1-9209-1ad3584bb5f5n@googlegroups.com...
>, Enrjyzr B wrote:
>> Dave P. wrote:
>> > Bernard T. Higonnet wrote:
>> > > Dave P. wrote:
>> > > > The Spanish Flu ended without vaccines!!
>> > > > Spanish flu: History
>> > > > 2.1 Timeline
>> > > > 2.1.1 First wave of early 1918
>> > > > 2.1.2 Deadly second wave of late 1918
>> > > > 2.1.3 Third wave of 1919
>> > > > 2.1.4 Fourth wave of 1920
>> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu
>> > > >
>> > > This has got to be the stupidest post I've seen in while.
>> > >
>> > > Yeah all previous pandemics ended without vaccines when there weren't
>> > > any vaccines. Try counting the dead jerk.
>> > -----------
>> > Why did the scientists call for Zero Population Growth
>> > 50 years ago? For Kicks? No, they were looking at out
>> > eco-footprint & extrapolating into the future, & nobody
>> > else was! Nothing was debunked; it was ignored! .
>> > ...
>> "The 1918 influenza pandemic.....The number of deaths was estimated
>> to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the US."
>> https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1918-pandemic-h1n1.html
>>
>> At an estimated 50 million deaths worldwide, it's far more severe than what
>> we are going thru now, however, without a vaccine now we might have
>> seen worse. My uncle, as a newborn, died from this.
> ---------------
> If we had globally taken proper steps to control
> population, 50 years ago, when the scientists called for
> ZPG, we could have decreased the possibility of climate
> change, the refugee crisis, environmental degradation,
> decimation of wildlife, and novel zoonotic diseases!
> ----
> -----

Fuck me. This conversation is getting even more stupid.

On 9/4/2021 3:09 AM, Dave P. wrote:
> If we had globally taken proper steps to control
> population, 50 years ago, when the scientists called for
> ZPG, we could have decreased the possibility of climate
> change, the refugee crisis, environmental degradation,
> decimation of wildlife, and novel zoonotic diseases!

Hey we tried population control in 30's and 40's. It
was expensive and people didn't like it.

--
**The AnsaMan**
Stupor Mundi!

On Saturday, 4 September 2021 at 19:23:09 UTC+9:30, ansaman wrote:
> On 9/4/2021 3:09 AM, Dave P. wrote:
> > If we had globally taken proper steps to control
> > population, 50 years ago, when the scientists called for
> > ZPG, we could have decreased the possibility of climate
> > change, the refugee crisis, environmental degradation,
> > decimation of wildlife, and novel zoonotic diseases!
> Hey we tried population control in 30's and 40's. It
> was expensive and people didn't like it.
>
> --
> **The AnsaMan**
> Stupor Mundi!

I don't remember there being population control in the 30s and 40s. I do remember from school WWII which was not about population control.

In article <1e0f0d68-c9a2-4b5e-a247-71a477328871n@googlegroups.com>,
Meteorite Debris <peter.gregory.kelly@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, 4 September 2021 at 19:23:09 UTC+9:30, ansaman wrote:
>> On 9/4/2021 3:09 AM, Dave P. wrote:
>> > If we had globally taken proper steps to control
>> > population, 50 years ago, when the scientists called for
>> > ZPG, we could have decreased the possibility of climate
>> > change, the refugee crisis, environmental degradation,
>> > decimation of wildlife, and novel zoonotic diseases!
>> Hey we tried population control in 30's and 40's. It
>> was expensive and people didn't like it.
>>
>> --
>> **The AnsaMan**
>> Stupor Mundi!
>
>I don't remember there being population control in the 30s and 40s. I do
>remember from school WWII which was not about population control.

I assume that that (WW2) was what he was referring to.

--
Note that Oprah actually is all the things that The Donald only wishes he were.
For one thing, she actually *is* a billionaire. She's also actually self-made,
came from nothing, knows how to run businesses, never went bankrupt, is smart
and is mentally stable.

ansaman wrote:
> Dave P. wrote:
> > If we had globally taken proper steps to control
> > population, 50 years ago, when the scientists called for
> > ZPG, we could have decreased the possibility of climate
> > change, the refugee crisis, environmental degradation,
> > decimation of wildlife, and novel zoonotic diseases!
> Hey we tried population control in 30's and 40's. It
> was expensive and people didn't like it.
----------
Birth Control will never be enough; gotta have Death Control, too!
Stop making flu, MMR, & Covid shots, to shorten the average
life span by a few years! Extending life spans more & more
is a selfish decision at the expense of other critters, future
generations, & the environment! Nowhere else in Nature does
a population increase indefinitely without a crash!
----
----

On Sat, 4 Sep 2021 12:27:28 -0700 (PDT), "Dave P."
<imbibe@mindspring.com> wrote:

> ansaman wrote:
>> Dave P. wrote:
>> > If we had globally taken proper steps to control
>> > population, 50 years ago, when the scientists called for
>> > ZPG, we could have decreased the possibility of climate
>> > change, the refugee crisis, environmental degradation,
>> > decimation of wildlife, and novel zoonotic diseases!
>> Hey we tried population control in 30's and 40's. It
>> was expensive and people didn't like it.
>----------
>Birth Control will never be enough; gotta have Death Control, too!
>Stop making flu, MMR, & Covid shots, to shorten the average
>life span by a few years! Extending life spans more & more
>is a selfish decision at the expense of other critters, future
>generations, & the environment! Nowhere else in Nature does
>a population increase indefinitely without a crash!
>----
>----

Be patient. A crash is on the way but who knows when.

On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 3:27:30 PM UTC-4, Dave P. wrote:
> ansaman wrote:
> >
> Birth Control will never be enough; gotta have Death Control, too!
> Stop making flu, MMR, & Covid shots, to shorten the average
> life span by a few years! Extending life spans more & more
> is a selfish decision at the expense of other critters, future
> generations, & the environment! Nowhere else in Nature does
> a population increase indefinitely without a crash!

Reminds me of something I said years ago. To the pro-natalists who argue that "God will provide," I say: "maybe God WAS providing by keeping the death rate so high, for thousands of years, until the 1890s, since it wasn't until then that all the world's DOCTORS had learned the importance of washing their hands?! Maybe God didn't WANT us to discover germs in the first place?"

But anyway, let's not forget that more (?) than half the world's women does not have easy access to a wide range of contraceptives. (Lots of women cannot safely use hormones or IUDs without harm.) On top of that, many would agree that poverty is a huge cause of teen pregnancy, because even when the parents don't WANT their children to marry early (and millions do), the teens may see parenthood as the only thing they can accomplish in life. So until both facts change drastically, we can't say that "birth control will never be enough."

Lenona wrote:
> Dave P. wrote:
> > ansaman wrote:
> > >
> > Birth Control will never be enough; gotta have Death Control, too!
> > Stop making flu, MMR, & Covid shots, to shorten the average
> > life span by a few years! Extending life spans more & more
> > is a selfish decision at the expense of other critters, future
> > generations, & the environment! Nowhere else in Nature does
> > a population increase indefinitely without a crash!
> To the pro-natalists who argue that "God will provide," I say: "maybe God WAS
> providing by keeping the death rate so high, for thousands of years, until the
> 1890s, since it wasn't until then that all the world's DOCTORS had learned the
> importance of washing their hands?! Maybe God didn't WANT us to discover
> germs in the first place?"
>
> let's not forget that more (?) than half the world's women does not have
> easy access to a wide range of contraceptives. (Lots of women cannot
> safely use hormones or IUDs without harm.) On top of that, many would
> agree that poverty is a huge cause of teen pregnancy, because even when
> the parents don't WANT their children to marry early (and millions do), the
> teens may see parenthood as the only thing they can accomplish in life.
> So until both facts change drastically, we can't say that "birth control will
> never be enough."
-----------------
We're adding 80 million per year, that's one billion every 12 years, just like
we've been doing for decades!
1804: 1 billion, 1926: 2 billion, 1963: 3 billion,
1974: 4 billion, 1986: 5 billion, 2000: 6 billion.
2012: 7 billion, 2023: 8 billion....
----
----

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 5:26:20 PM UTC-4, Dave P. wrote:

> We're adding 80 million per year, that's one billion every 12 years, just like
> we've been doing for decades!
> 1804: 1 billion, 1926: 2 billion, 1963: 3 billion,
> 1974: 4 billion, 1986: 5 billion, 2000: 6 billion.
> 2012: 7 billion, 2023: 8 billion....
>

Funny, the dates I'd always heard were: 1960, 1974, 1987, 1999, 2011, and 2023. Those would have a more likely consistency, anyway.

And, oddly, the Worldometers website doesn't seem to have noticed the sharp drop in the birth rate in the last 12 months or so of the pandemic (assuming the drop happened in most of the world's nations). That is, in my experience, that site has claimed for years that we've had 9,300 births every hour, which is how I calculated that that site, at least, will display 8 billion in early January, 2023 - whether that's close to accurate or not.

But, according to this...

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-projections/

....we won't reach 9 billion till 2037, 14 years after 2023. So by 2030, we should know whether that prediction of a slowdown for the rest of this century was correct or not - from other sources, maybe.

And I don't know just how the death rate in 2020 compared to the death rate in 2019, but it's likely that deaths caused by pre-pandemic activities weren't quite as common during the pandemic. (Though I certainly heard reports, sadly, of people getting killed in car crashes because the roads were less crowded and they were driving faster than usual - at least one state governor had to go on the news to tell drivers to slow down.)

"in the last 12 months"

Now that I think about it, I should only have said "since December."

After all, the lockdowns didn't really get going until March of 2020.

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 8:02:54 PM UTC-4, Lenona wrote:
> And I don't know just how the death rate in 2020 compared to the death rate in 2019, but it's likely that deaths caused by pre-pandemic activities weren't quite as common during the pandemic. (Though I certainly heard reports, sadly, of people getting killed in car crashes because the roads were less crowded and they were driving faster than usual - at least one state governor had to go on the news to tell drivers to slow down.)

Well, in the U.S. at least, the deaths apparently increased by almost 18%! (But in Indonesia, I heard, the pandemic meant that people couldn't access family planning services as easily, so there's been a baby boom there that the U.S. didn't have. Likely, many Third World countries are going through the same thing.)

https://www.dw.com/en/indonesia-coronavirus-baby-boom/av-56991249

https://www.advisory.com/en/daily-briefing/2021/04/01/coronavirus

"Overall, the researchers found an estimated 3,358,814 deaths occurred in the United States in 2020—up by 17.7% from 2,854,838 deaths in 2019. The researchers also found the estimated age-adjusted death rate increased by 15.9% from 715.2 per 100,000 population in 2019 to 828.7 deaths per 100,000 population in 2020."

Lenona wrote:
> Dave P. wrote:
>
> > We're adding 80 million per year, that's one billion every 12 years, just like
> > we've been doing for decades!
> > 1804: 1 billion, 1926: 2 billion, 1963: 3 billion,
> > 1974: 4 billion, 1986: 5 billion, 2000: 6 billion.
> > 2012: 7 billion, 2023: 8 billion....
> >
> I'd always heard were: 1960, 1974, 1987, 1999, 2011, and 2023. Those would have a more likely consistency, anyway.
>
> And, oddly, the Worldometers website doesn't seem to have noticed the sharp drop in the birth rate in the last 12 months or so of the pandemic (assuming the drop happened in most of the world's nations). That is, in my experience, that site has claimed for years that we've had 9,300 births every hour, which is how I calculated that that site, at least, will display 8 billion in early January, 2023 - whether that's close to accurate or not.
>
> But, according to this...
> https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-projections/
> ...we won't reach 9 billion till 2037, 14 years after 2023. So by 2030, we should know whether that prediction of a slowdown for the rest of this century was correct or not - from other sources, maybe.
-------
There's nothing "normal" about adding one billion every 12 years!
...
...