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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: Rollout: 5pt problems never get old

SubjectAuthor
* 5pt problems never get oldTimothy Chow
+* Re: 5pt problems never get oldah....Clem
|`* Re: 5pt problems never get oldBenjamin Friesen
| `- Re: 5pt problems never get oldah....Clem
+- Re: 5pt problems never get oldBenjamin Friesen
+- Re: 5pt problems never get oldMK
`* Rollout: 5pt problems never get oldTimothy Chow
 `- Re: Rollout: 5pt problems never get oldBenjamin Friesen

1
5pt problems never get old

<tq6bs3$3968r$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: 5pt problems never get old
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 09:37:55 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Tue, 17 Jan 2023 14:37 UTC

For me they don't, anyway. Here's the first of several problems
where making the 5pt is an option.

XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O X |
| X O O | | O X |
| X O | | O |
| X | | O |
| | | O |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| | | X |
| O | | X |
| O X | | X O |
| O X X X | | X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 61

---
Tim Chow

Re: 5pt problems never get old

<tq6f6r$39nrk$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: 5pt problems never get old
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 10:34:51 -0500
Organization: The Future Fair
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 by: ah....Clem - Tue, 17 Jan 2023 15:34 UTC

On 1/17/2023 9:37 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> For me they don't, anyway.  Here's the first of several problems
> where making the 5pt is an option.
>
> XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
>  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>  | X        O  O    |   | O              X |
>  | X        O  O    |   | O              X |
>  | X           O    |   | O                |
>  | X                |   | O                |
>  |                  |   | O                |
>  |                  |BAR|                  |
>  |                  |   | X                |
>  |                  |   | X                |
>  | O                |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X              O |
>  | O  X        X  X |   | X              O |
>  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count  X: 164  O: 159 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 61

Normally when faced with making either the 5 or 7 points, the five point
is the right idea. Since it makes the more valuable point and usually
also unstacks the six it's clearly better.

But here it offers up 17 shots, letting O escape with tempo, so I'll opt
for making the bar point. Then, splitting should be more useful than 11/10.

24/23 13/7.

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Re: 5pt problems never get old

<6ab43cf4-0b57-4bdd-a444-d5317dd92f01n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: 5pt problems never get old
From: melanio...@gmail.com (Benjamin Friesen)
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 by: Benjamin Friesen - Tue, 17 Jan 2023 22:43 UTC

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 9:37:57 AM UTC-5, Tim Chow wrote:
> For me they don't, anyway. Here's the first of several problems
> where making the 5pt is an option.
>
> XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O O | | O X |
> | X O O | | O X |
> | X O | | O |
> | X | | O |
> | | | O |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | X |
> | | | X |
> | O | | X |
> | O X | | X O |
> | O X X X | | X O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 61
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

64S-21H-41P-61?

Stick

Re: 5pt problems never get old

<5b923bd6-dd52-4ecd-9d56-184b85843e23n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: 5pt problems never get old
From: melanio...@gmail.com (Benjamin Friesen)
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 by: Benjamin Friesen - Tue, 17 Jan 2023 22:44 UTC

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 10:34:52 AM UTC-5, ah....Clem wrote:
> On 1/17/2023 9:37 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > For me they don't, anyway. Here's the first of several problems
> > where making the 5pt is an option.
> >
> > XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
> >
> > Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> > +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> > | X O O | | O X |
> > | X O O | | O X |
> > | X O | | O |
> > | X | | O |
> > | | | O |
> > | |BAR| |
> > | | | X |
> > | | | X |
> > | O | | X |
> > | O X | | X O |
> > | O X X X | | X O |
> > +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> > Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
> > Cube: 1
> > X to play 61
> Normally when faced with making either the 5 or 7 points, the five point
> is the right idea. Since it makes the more valuable point and usually
> also unstacks the six it's clearly better.
>
> But here it offers up 17 shots, letting O escape with tempo, so I'll opt
> for making the bar point. Then, splitting should be more useful than 11/10.
>
> 24/23 13/7.
>
> --
> Ah....Clem
> The future is fun, the future is fair.

After making the bar with the six did you consider slotting the five point?

Stick

Re: 5pt problems never get old

<tq9pd6$120gq$2@dont-email.me>

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: 5pt problems never get old
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:47:19 -0500
Organization: The Future Fair
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 by: ah....Clem - Wed, 18 Jan 2023 21:47 UTC

On 1/17/2023 5:44 PM, Benjamin Friesen wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 10:34:52 AM UTC-5, ah....Clem wrote:
>> On 1/17/2023 9:37 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
>>> For me they don't, anyway. Here's the first of several problems
>>> where making the 5pt is an option.
>>>
>>> XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
>>>
>>> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
>>> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>>> | X O O | | O X |
>>> | X O O | | O X |
>>> | X O | | O |
>>> | X | | O |
>>> | | | O |
>>> | |BAR| |
>>> | | | X |
>>> | | | X |
>>> | O | | X |
>>> | O X | | X O |
>>> | O X X X | | X O |
>>> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
>>> Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
>>> Cube: 1
>>> X to play 61
>> Normally when faced with making either the 5 or 7 points, the five point
>> is the right idea. Since it makes the more valuable point and usually
>> also unstacks the six it's clearly better.
>>
>> But here it offers up 17 shots, letting O escape with tempo, so I'll opt
>> for making the bar point. Then, splitting should be more useful than 11/10.
>>
>> 24/23 13/7.
>>
>> --
>
> After making the bar with the six did you consider slotting the five point?

I did not. I should have. Not sure it's better than splitting though.

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Re: 5pt problems never get old

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Subject: Re: 5pt problems never get old
From: mur...@compuplus.net (MK)
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 by: MK - Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:57 UTC

On January 17, 2023 at 7:37:57 AM UTC-7, Tim Chow wrote:

> For me they don't, anyway.

Good clarification. Other bozos can't
get enough of 5pt problems either...

Keep on jacking off your ilks... :)

MK

Rollout: 5pt problems never get old

<tqbl38$1ivkf$3@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Rollout: 5pt problems never get old
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:46:00 -0500
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 by: Timothy Chow - Thu, 19 Jan 2023 14:46 UTC

XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O X |
| X O O | | O X |
| X O | | O |
| X | | O |
| | | O |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| | | X |
| O | | X |
| O X | | X O |
| O X X X | | X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 61

Making the 5pt isn't a huge blunder here, according to XG, but XG
does favor making the bar point (and then slotting the 5pt rather
than splitting, aiming to prime rather than race). I still find
this surprising, but I think the logic is that 13/7 6/5 makes it
easier to extend X's prime (if O misses, of course) than 11/5 6/5.
See the variant below.

1. Rollout¹ 13/7 6/5 eq:+0.073
Player: 52.12% (G:15.21% B:0.71%)
Opponent: 47.88% (G:15.12% B:1.07%)
Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.065..+0.082) - [100.0%]

2. Rollout¹ 11/5 6/5 eq:+0.030 (-0.043)
Player: 50.62% (G:15.90% B:0.79%)
Opponent: 49.38% (G:14.94% B:0.89%)
Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.022..+0.038) - [0.0%]

¹ 5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

-------
Variant
-------

XGID=-b----EAC--AcC--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O X |
| X O O | | O X |
| X O | | O |
| | | O |
| | | O |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X O |
| O X X X | | X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 159 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 61

1. Rollout¹ 11/5 6/5 eq:+0.102
Player: 51.96% (G:17.03% B:0.88%)
Opponent: 48.04% (G:13.95% B:0.84%)
Confidence: ±0.011 (+0.091..+0.113) - [99.8%]

2. Rollout¹ 13/7 6/5 eq:+0.079 (-0.023)
Player: 52.25% (G:16.23% B:0.80%)
Opponent: 47.75% (G:14.94% B:1.06%)
Confidence: ±0.011 (+0.068..+0.090) - [0.2%]

¹ 2650 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

---
Tim Chow

Re: Rollout: 5pt problems never get old

<50c56e0d-5d56-4c83-a97a-ad33d587fa22n@googlegroups.com>

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Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 13:39:08 -0800 (PST)
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Subject: Re: Rollout: 5pt problems never get old
From: melanio...@gmail.com (Benjamin Friesen)
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 by: Benjamin Friesen - Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:39 UTC

On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:46:02 AM UTC-5, Tim Chow wrote:
> XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O O | | O X |
> | X O O | | O X |
> | X O | | O |
> | X | | O |
> | | | O |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | X |
> | | | X |
> | O | | X |
> | O X | | X O |
> | O X X X | | X O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 61
> Making the 5pt isn't a huge blunder here, according to XG, but XG
> does favor making the bar point (and then slotting the 5pt rather
> than splitting, aiming to prime rather than race). I still find
> this surprising, but I think the logic is that 13/7 6/5 makes it
> easier to extend X's prime (if O misses, of course) than 11/5 6/5.
> See the variant below.
>
> 1. Rollout¹ 13/7 6/5 eq:+0.073
> Player: 52.12% (G:15.21% B:0.71%)
> Opponent: 47.88% (G:15.12% B:1.07%)
> Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.065..+0.082) - [100.0%]
>
> 2. Rollout¹ 11/5 6/5 eq:+0.030 (-0.043)
> Player: 50.62% (G:15.90% B:0.79%)
> Opponent: 49.38% (G:14.94% B:0.89%)
> Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.022..+0.038) - [0.0%]
>
> ¹ 5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> Dice Seed: 271828
> Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
>
> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
>
> -------
> Variant
> -------
>
> XGID=-b----EAC--AcC--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O O | | O X |
> | X O O | | O X |
> | X O | | O |
> | | | O |
> | | | O |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | X |
> | | | X |
> | O X | | X |
> | O X | | X O |
> | O X X X | | X O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 159 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 61
> 1. Rollout¹ 11/5 6/5 eq:+0.102
> Player: 51.96% (G:17.03% B:0.88%)
> Opponent: 48.04% (G:13.95% B:0.84%)
> Confidence: ±0.011 (+0.091..+0.113) - [99.8%]
>
> 2. Rollout¹ 13/7 6/5 eq:+0.079 (-0.023)
> Player: 52.25% (G:16.23% B:0.80%)
> Opponent: 47.75% (G:14.94% B:1.06%)
> Confidence: ±0.011 (+0.068..+0.090) - [0.2%]
>
> ¹ 2650 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> Dice Seed: 271828
> Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
>
> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

The opponent not only misses our slotted 5pt more often 7pt due to the number of shots it leaves but the real root of it is how well fours play for our opponent v. how well his sixes play.

Stick

1
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