Quite contrary to another posters game where the Random Number God
blessed his character in many respects, my current Tourist reached
the quest levels and still lacking elementary items. Just shortly
before opening the door of the Beholder's room I got aware that I
was not only lacking reflection, and also magic resistance, but so
elementary items like a blindfold or towel. Clearly it would not
be a good idea to face that beast unprotected. Then I wanted to get
the cursed -9 gray dragon scales from the Lawful quest to have some
means of MR, even though I was also lacking enchant armor scrolls
to fabricate dragon armor. Moreover, a random golden naga in that
quest magically destroyed my +3 large shield and my cloak before I
even got aware of that attack. But I was still lucky that he hadn't
destroyed my magical armor, Whisperfeet and Gauntlets of Defense.
So I slowed down a bit, managed to cancel the scales, identified a
yet unknown scroll of enchant armor, enchanted my Frostbrand to +4,
and I am ready for the Tourist quest at least (or so do I think).

Note aside: It came to my mind to use a cream pie to blind myself
to face the Beholder. Another option would be to use the camera.
But I was anxious that the effects would wear off before I killed
the critter. - How long will blinding from a cream pie or camera
last?

Janis

On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 9:12:07 AM UTC-8, Janis wrote:
> [...] How long will blinding from a cream pie or camera last?

I looked at the slash'em sources: 1 to 25 turns for all three of
apply camera at self, apply cream pie at self, and throw pie
upwards so that it falls back down on self. I didn't check the
duration when hit by a pie thrown by a monster but that is
probably the same. Offhand I can't think of any other ways you
might be hit by one. Maybe launched by a land mine explosion?

For nethack, cream pie is the same. Applying an expensive
camera at self was the same in 3.4.3, but for 3.6.0 and later it
is 6 to 30 turns rather than 1-25.

Applying multiple pies (one per turn; applying a stack will
split one off and use just that one) will stack their durations
rather than replace the first one's duration by the second's and
so on.

Janis Papanagnou — 06.12.21 18:12:
> Quite contrary to another posters game where the Random Number God
> blessed his character in many respects, my current Tourist reached
> the quest levels and still lacking elementary items. Just shortly
> before opening the door of the Beholder's room I got aware that I
> was not only lacking reflection, and also magic resistance, but so
> elementary items like a blindfold or towel. Clearly it would not
> be a good idea to face that beast unprotected. Then I wanted to get
> the cursed -9 gray dragon scales from the Lawful quest to have some
> means of MR, even though I was also lacking enchant armor scrolls
> to fabricate dragon armor. Moreover, a random golden naga in that
> quest magically destroyed my +3 large shield and my cloak before I
> even got aware of that attack. But I was still lucky that he hadn't
> destroyed my magical armor, Whisperfeet and Gauntlets of Defense.
> So I slowed down a bit, managed to cancel the scales, identified a
> yet unknown scroll of enchant armor, enchanted my Frostbrand to +4,
> and I am ready for the Tourist quest at least (or so do I think).
>
> Note aside: It came to my mind to use a cream pie to blind myself
> to face the Beholder. Another option would be to use the camera.
> But I was anxious that the effects would wear off before I killed
> the critter. - How long will blinding from a cream pie or camera
> last?
The potion of blindness would be perfect for this and lasts for at least
125 turns… Unless you've watered all of them down already, of course.

Benjamin

--
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires.
Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-- Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles

On 07.12.2021 03:02, Pat Rankin wrote:
> On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 9:12:07 AM UTC-8, Janis wrote:
>> [...] How long will blinding from a cream pie or camera last?
>
> I looked at the slash'em sources: 1 to 25 turns for all three of
> apply camera at self, apply cream pie at self, and throw pie
> upwards so that it falls back down on self. [...]

Okay, thanks, so it's quite unreliable and dangerous to use in the
given (Beholder) case.

Janis

On 07.12.2021 11:47, Benjamin Heiligenbrunner wrote:
>>
>> [...] - How long will blinding from a cream pie or camera last?
>
> The potion of blindness would be perfect for this and lasts for at least
> 125 turns… Unless you've watered all of them down already, of course.

Frankly, I cannot remember whether I already identified these potions
at that stage, or whether I had some in the first place, or whether I
diluted them without thinking. Actually, I got aware of my lacking
blindness just before I stood at the Beholder room already, and since
I checked my inventory I certainly didn't have a potion at that moment.
Since it seems the most reliable means here, one potion would be worth
to keep for situations like that.

Janis

I don't usually complain about the RNG. Not having a way to blind or a key is very rare but it does happen. I think slash em is harder in this respect..

Another option is that I ascend somewhere between 1/5 or 1/8 games, somewhere around there, and I play super (too) fast. So it may be that my guys die if they don't have those things. I rarely, rarely am all the way to the castle without at least either reflection or magic resistance. My folder I play in is full of bones, so there's also that.

What I do complain about is games where I don't have a co-aligned altar in gnometown and there are no altars all the way up to medusa's. That freaking sucks. And it happens to me all the time. Without an artifact weapon or a source of holy water I'm really boned and I don't know how to adapt past that. I have ascended with no wishes till the castle, and once wishless, but wishes, carefully chosen are key to my game.

I also play petless because I find them tedious to my fast play style. I can play three games in the time it takes most people to play one.

Today I played four arcs, the first three died, and also, the first three couldn't find an altar. This guy did and got sunsword, that was a bridge to getting more food and then sacrificing and getting snickersnee. After that it was off to the races. I'll eventually find a longsword, which I'll dip for excalibur which is a fine ascendable weapon.

For me it's 1. getting an artifact weapon/some decent armor (even if playing a spellcaster). 2. getting a wish 3. getting reflection or magic resistance (or both). Scroll of enchant weapon, and scroll of enchant armor, and/or donating to a priest. Those are key.

Digging out vaults when I see the message is easy for me because I'm petless and food is never a problem. This also helps with my spellcasters.

On 17.01.2022 09:20, Chris Bowers wrote:
>
> What I do complain about is games where I don't have a co-aligned
> altar in gnometown and there are no altars all the way up to
> medusa's. That freaking sucks. And it happens to me all the time.
> Without an artifact weapon or a source of holy water I'm really boned
> and I don't know how to adapt past that.

Co-aligned temples or convertible altars are a game changer. Same
in Slashem, but there you can at least find a co-aligned altar in
the Lawful quest; though that means you must survive until level
15-19 which is for sure not a given.

Janis

On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 4:21:58 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:
> On 17.01.2022 09:20, Chris Bowers wrote:
> >
> > What I do complain about is games where I don't have a co-aligned
> > altar in gnometown and there are no altars all the way up to
> > medusa's. That freaking sucks. And it happens to me all the time.
> > Without an artifact weapon or a source of holy water I'm really boned
> > and I don't know how to adapt past that.
> Co-aligned temples or convertible altars are a game changer. Same
> in Slashem, but there you can at least find a co-aligned altar in
> the Lawful quest; though that means you must survive until level
> 15-19 which is for sure not a given.
>
> Janis

I'm also aware that in Nethack you can trap the priest in gnome town with boulders and convert the altar. He can still summon insects but you won't be hit with a smite as long as you don't attack HIM. BUt still to be strong enough to do this without access to holy water or an artifact weapon is indeed a problem. The artifact weapon is the thing that gets you "over the hump" in terms of being superior to most monsters in combat. For some players (like playing a combat Arc) just getting long sword unrestricted and getting a long sword gives you an actual damaging weapon (even if it is not a strong artifact weapon). There is a co-aligned altar in what? 80-85% of games before Medusa's?

That seems like the games where it doesn't happen is just a rare occurrence that screws people, by which I mean... an annoyingly lame game feature.

Maybe a challenge game for me would be playing without an altar until the castle. If I find scroll of enchant weapon, I can do it. But no scroll of enchant weapon and no altar? I don't think I can win and I'd have to stop playing petless and be a subservient whelp to my much stronger pet.