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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: You don't see this too often

SubjectAuthor
* You don't see this too oftenRobert Zimmerman
+* Re: You don't see this too oftenTimothy Chow
|`* Re: You don't see this too oftenpeps...@gmail.com
| `* Re: You don't see this too oftenRobert Zimmerman
|  `* Re: You don't see this too oftenpeps...@gmail.com
|   `* Re: You don't see this too oftenRobert Zimmerman
|    `- Re: You don't see this too oftenpeps...@gmail.com
`* Re: You don't see this too oftentetraHydro saved my life
 `* Re: You don't see this too oftenpeps...@gmail.com
  +- Re: You don't see this too oftentetraHydro saved my life
  `- Re: You don't see this too oftenSimon Woodhead

1
You don't see this too often

<64d43110-249c-4a16-aef1-64f4be0d4f42n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: You don't see this too often
From: zimbrook...@gmail.com (Robert Zimmerman)
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 by: Robert Zimmerman - Fri, 28 Apr 2023 00:34 UTC

I didn't even consider running the stop sign.

XGID=-BBbB-DC-B-------a-cbcbaa-:1:-1:1:44:0:2:0:7:10

Score is X:0 O:2 7 pt.(s) match.
+24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+
| O O O O O O | | O | +---+
| O O O O | | | | 2 |
| O O | | | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| X | | |
| X | | X |
| X X O X X | | X X |
| X X O X X | | X X |
+-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+
Pip count X: 77 O: 101 X-O: 0-2/7
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 44

1. XG Roller++ 9/1(2) eq:+0.547
Player: 78.74% (G:1.57% B:0.01%)
Opponent: 21.26% (G:0.51% B:0.01%)

2. XG Roller++ 9/5(2) 6/2(2) eq:+0.477 (-0.071)
Player: 75.19% (G:1.85% B:0.01%)
Opponent: 24.81% (G:1.02% B:0.02%)

3. 1-ply 9/5 9/1 6/2 eq:+0.203 (-0.344)
Player: 64.30% (G:3.48% B:0.02%)
Opponent: 35.70% (G:3.33% B:0.02%)

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10, MET: Kazaross XG2

Re: You don't see this too often

<u2femn$29q6p$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: You don't see this too often
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2023 23:31:34 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Fri, 28 Apr 2023 03:31 UTC

On 4/27/2023 8:34 PM, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> I didn't even consider running the stop sign.
>
> XGID=-BBbB-DC-B-------a-cbcbaa-:1:-1:1:44:0:2:0:7:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:2 7 pt.(s) match.
> +24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+
> | O O O O O O | | O | +---+
> | O O O O | | | | 2 |
> | O O | | | +---+
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | X | | |
> | X | | X |
> | X X O X X | | X X |
> | X X O X X | | X X |
> +-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+
> Pip count X: 77 O: 101 X-O: 0-2/7
> Cube: 2, O own cube
> X to play 44

Nice one. Once you realize that leaving interior gaps is not
always a bad thing, you'll start to notice that such situations
crop up more frequently than you might think. Below are a couple
of examples from my files that you might find interesting.

XGID=-ECbB-E-a---a------bcbbb--:1:-1:1:11:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| | | O O O O O | +---+
| | | O O O O O | | 2 |
| | | O | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | X X |
| | | X X |
| | | X X X |
| | | X X O X X |
| O O | | X X O X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 49 O: 119 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 11

1. Rollout¹ 6/4 1/Off(2) eq:+0.840
Player: 84.40% (G:21.64% B:0.08%)
Opponent: 15.60% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.837..+0.843) - [100.0%]

2. Rollout¹ 1/Off(4) eq:+0.801 (-0.039)
Player: 80.73% (G:26.80% B:0.30%)
Opponent: 19.27% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
Confidence: ±0.005 (+0.796..+0.806) - [0.0%]

3. Rollout¹ 6/5(2) 6/4 eq:+0.787 (-0.053)
Player: 85.21% (G:13.41% B:0.02%)
Opponent: 14.79% (G:0.28% B:0.01%)
Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.784..+0.790) - [0.0%]

4. Rollout¹ 6/5(3) 1/Off eq:+0.752 (-0.088)
Player: 82.44% (G:16.95% B:0.05%)
Opponent: 17.56% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.749..+0.755) - [0.0%]

¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

---

XGID=--CbBDD--B---------abcbcb-:1:-1:1:33:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| | | O O O O O O | +---+
| | | O O O O O | | 2 |
| | | O O | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | X X |
| | | X X X |
| X | | X X X O X |
| X | | X X X O X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 76 O: 86 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 33

1. Rollout¹ 9/6(2) 4/1(2) eq:+0.724
Player: 87.34% (G:1.63% B:0.01%)
Opponent: 12.66% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.721..+0.727) - [100.0%]

2. Rollout¹ 9/6(2) 5/2(2) eq:+0.637 (-0.087)
Player: 84.02% (G:0.98% B:0.01%)
Opponent: 15.98% (G:0.01% B:0.00%)
Confidence: ±0.004 (+0.633..+0.641) - [0.0%]

¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

---
Tim Chow

Re: You don't see this too often

<587b813a-4ded-431b-ba85-ee13efb937b8n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: You don't see this too often
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Fri, 28 Apr 2023 08:15 UTC

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:31:38 AM UTC+1, Timothy Chow wrote:
> On 4/27/2023 8:34 PM, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> > I didn't even consider running the stop sign.
> >
> > XGID=-BBbB-DC-B-------a-cbcbaa-:1:-1:1:44:0:2:0:7:10
> >
> > Score is X:0 O:2 7 pt.(s) match.
> > +24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+
> > | O O O O O O | | O | +---+
> > | O O O O | | | | 2 |
> > | O O | | | +---+
> > | | | |
> > | | | |
> > | |BAR| |
> > | | | |
> > | X | | |
> > | X | | X |
> > | X X O X X | | X X |
> > | X X O X X | | X X |
> > +-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+
> > Pip count X: 77 O: 101 X-O: 0-2/7
> > Cube: 2, O own cube
> > X to play 44
> Nice one. Once you realize that leaving interior gaps is not
> always a bad thing, you'll start to notice that such situations
> crop up more frequently than you might think. Below are a couple
> of examples from my files that you might find interesting.
>
> XGID=-ECbB-E-a---a------bcbbb--:1:-1:1:11:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | | | O O O O O | +---+
> | | | O O O O O | | 2 |
> | | | O | +---+
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | X X |
> | | | X X |
> | | | X X X |
> | | | X X O X X |
> | O O | | X X O X X |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 49 O: 119 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 2, O own cube
> X to play 11
>
> 1. Rollout¹ 6/4 1/Off(2) eq:+0.840
> Player: 84.40% (G:21.64% B:0.08%)
> Opponent: 15.60% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.837..+0.843) - [100.0%]
>
> 2. Rollout¹ 1/Off(4) eq:+0.801 (-0.039)
> Player: 80.73% (G:26.80% B:0.30%)
> Opponent: 19.27% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> Confidence: ±0.005 (+0.796..+0.806) - [0.0%]
>
> 3. Rollout¹ 6/5(2) 6/4 eq:+0.787 (-0.053)
> Player: 85.21% (G:13.41% B:0.02%)
> Opponent: 14.79% (G:0.28% B:0.01%)
> Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.784..+0.790) - [0.0%]
>
> 4. Rollout¹ 6/5(3) 1/Off eq:+0.752 (-0.088)
> Player: 82.44% (G:16.95% B:0.05%)
> Opponent: 17.56% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.749..+0.755) - [0.0%]
>
> ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> Dice Seed: 271828
> Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
>
> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
.....
This position hardly reinforces Bob's theme!
Bob (if I understand him correctly) is making the point (unfortunate
unintended double meaning) that we don't always get the safest bearoff
by filling in inner points.

However, you say that you are giving a similar situation, but you
present a position where filling in is in fact the safest.
(Look at the percentage of games won by the favourite).

However, we don't fill in because we don't get enough gammons that way.
So this position shows the anti-DMP theme of sacrificing positions
and decreasing wins but compensating for it with gammons made.
In money play, many find this type of sacrifice difficult to make and
cashing when TG is another example akin to missing greedy bearoffs.
Not related to Bob's theme.

However, your subsequent (deleted) variantization was indeed relevant
and thematically similar.
Thank you for all your variantizations and posts whether relevant or not.
They are always interesting.

Paul

Re: You don't see this too often

<92dddc28-0736-477c-8906-9473e12a8d49n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: You don't see this too often
From: zimbrook...@gmail.com (Robert Zimmerman)
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 by: Robert Zimmerman - Fri, 28 Apr 2023 16:54 UTC

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:15:25 AM UTC-4, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:31:38 AM UTC+1, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > On 4/27/2023 8:34 PM, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> > > I didn't even consider running the stop sign.
> > >
> > > XGID=-BBbB-DC-B-------a-cbcbaa-:1:-1:1:44:0:2:0:7:10
> > >
> > > Score is X:0 O:2 7 pt.(s) match.
> > > +24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+
> > > | O O O O O O | | O | +---+
> > > | O O O O | | | | 2 |
> > > | O O | | | +---+
> > > | | | |
> > > | | | |
> > > | |BAR| |
> > > | | | |
> > > | X | | |
> > > | X | | X |
> > > | X X O X X | | X X |
> > > | X X O X X | | X X |
> > > +-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+
> > > Pip count X: 77 O: 101 X-O: 0-2/7
> > > Cube: 2, O own cube
> > > X to play 44
> > Nice one. Once you realize that leaving interior gaps is not
> > always a bad thing, you'll start to notice that such situations
> > crop up more frequently than you might think. Below are a couple
> > of examples from my files that you might find interesting.
> >
> > XGID=-ECbB-E-a---a------bcbbb--:1:-1:1:11:0:0:0:0:10
> >
> > Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> > +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> > | | | O O O O O | +---+
> > | | | O O O O O | | 2 |
> > | | | O | +---+
> > | | | |
> > | | | |
> > | |BAR| |
> > | | | X X |
> > | | | X X |
> > | | | X X X |
> > | | | X X O X X |
> > | O O | | X X O X X |
> > +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> > Pip count X: 49 O: 119 X-O: 0-0
> > Cube: 2, O own cube
> > X to play 11
> >
> > 1. Rollout¹ 6/4 1/Off(2) eq:+0.840
> > Player: 84.40% (G:21.64% B:0.08%)
> > Opponent: 15.60% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.837..+0.843) - [100.0%]
> >
> > 2. Rollout¹ 1/Off(4) eq:+0.801 (-0.039)
> > Player: 80.73% (G:26.80% B:0.30%)
> > Opponent: 19.27% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > Confidence: ±0.005 (+0.796..+0.806) - [0.0%]
> >
> > 3. Rollout¹ 6/5(2) 6/4 eq:+0.787 (-0.053)
> > Player: 85.21% (G:13.41% B:0.02%)
> > Opponent: 14.79% (G:0.28% B:0.01%)
> > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.784..+0.790) - [0.0%]
> >
> > 4. Rollout¹ 6/5(3) 1/Off eq:+0.752 (-0.088)
> > Player: 82.44% (G:16.95% B:0.05%)
> > Opponent: 17.56% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.749..+0.755) - [0.0%]
> >
> > ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> > Dice Seed: 271828
> > Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
> >
> > eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
> ....
> This position hardly reinforces Bob's theme!
> Bob (if I understand him correctly) is making the point (unfortunate
> unintended double meaning) that we don't always get the safest bearoff
> by filling in inner points.
>
> However, you say that you are giving a similar situation, but you
> present a position where filling in is in fact the safest.
> (Look at the percentage of games won by the favourite).
>
> However, we don't fill in because we don't get enough gammons that way.
> So this position shows the anti-DMP theme of sacrificing positions
> and decreasing wins but compensating for it with gammons made.
> In money play, many find this type of sacrifice difficult to make and
> cashing when TG is another example akin to missing greedy bearoffs.
> Not related to Bob's theme.
>
> However, your subsequent (deleted) variantization was indeed relevant
> and thematically similar.
> Thank you for all your variantizations and posts whether relevant or not.
> They are always interesting.
>
> Paul
Thanks, Tim, for the additions. My first impulse to post was just motivated by how unusual it is to bring two checkers right past a gap that looks like it was made for them, regardless of whether it is for safety or gammon purposes. Our backgammon hindbrains just see that spot and say "what a great roll for those checkers to come in with and land!" then look at the usual next step, move in from the back. But yes, as Paul said, safety is the theme here.

Tim's second position is interesting to me in particular because it neatly fits advice from Michi's book, Endgame Technique. The correct move in this position is pretty obvious when you look at the serious consequences of playing wrong, but his advice to create a gap against a three-point anchor if it leads to a "zero position", namely one that is safe for the next roll, is germane and works. It's a very good book with some novel material.

Bob

Re: You don't see this too often

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Subject: Re: You don't see this too often
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Fri, 28 Apr 2023 17:25 UTC

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 5:54:17 PM UTC+1, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:15:25 AM UTC-4, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:31:38 AM UTC+1, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > > On 4/27/2023 8:34 PM, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> > > > I didn't even consider running the stop sign.
> > > >
> > > > XGID=-BBbB-DC-B-------a-cbcbaa-:1:-1:1:44:0:2:0:7:10
> > > >
> > > > Score is X:0 O:2 7 pt.(s) match.
> > > > +24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+
> > > > | O O O O O O | | O | +---+
> > > > | O O O O | | | | 2 |
> > > > | O O | | | +---+
> > > > | | | |
> > > > | | | |
> > > > | |BAR| |
> > > > | | | |
> > > > | X | | |
> > > > | X | | X |
> > > > | X X O X X | | X X |
> > > > | X X O X X | | X X |
> > > > +-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+
> > > > Pip count X: 77 O: 101 X-O: 0-2/7
> > > > Cube: 2, O own cube
> > > > X to play 44
> > > Nice one. Once you realize that leaving interior gaps is not
> > > always a bad thing, you'll start to notice that such situations
> > > crop up more frequently than you might think. Below are a couple
> > > of examples from my files that you might find interesting.
> > >
> > > XGID=-ECbB-E-a---a------bcbbb--:1:-1:1:11:0:0:0:0:10
> > >
> > > Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> > > +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> > > | | | O O O O O | +---+
> > > | | | O O O O O | | 2 |
> > > | | | O | +---+
> > > | | | |
> > > | | | |
> > > | |BAR| |
> > > | | | X X |
> > > | | | X X |
> > > | | | X X X |
> > > | | | X X O X X |
> > > | O O | | X X O X X |
> > > +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> > > Pip count X: 49 O: 119 X-O: 0-0
> > > Cube: 2, O own cube
> > > X to play 11
> > >
> > > 1. Rollout¹ 6/4 1/Off(2) eq:+0.840
> > > Player: 84.40% (G:21.64% B:0.08%)
> > > Opponent: 15.60% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.837..+0.843) - [100.0%]
> > >
> > > 2. Rollout¹ 1/Off(4) eq:+0.801 (-0.039)
> > > Player: 80.73% (G:26.80% B:0.30%)
> > > Opponent: 19.27% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > > Confidence: ±0.005 (+0.796..+0.806) - [0.0%]
> > >
> > > 3. Rollout¹ 6/5(2) 6/4 eq:+0.787 (-0.053)
> > > Player: 85.21% (G:13.41% B:0.02%)
> > > Opponent: 14.79% (G:0.28% B:0.01%)
> > > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.784..+0.790) - [0.0%]
> > >
> > > 4. Rollout¹ 6/5(3) 1/Off eq:+0.752 (-0.088)
> > > Player: 82.44% (G:16.95% B:0.05%)
> > > Opponent: 17.56% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.749..+0.755) - [0.0%]
> > >
> > > ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> > > Dice Seed: 271828
> > > Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
> > >
> > > eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
> > ....
> > This position hardly reinforces Bob's theme!
> > Bob (if I understand him correctly) is making the point (unfortunate
> > unintended double meaning) that we don't always get the safest bearoff
> > by filling in inner points.
> >
> > However, you say that you are giving a similar situation, but you
> > present a position where filling in is in fact the safest.
> > (Look at the percentage of games won by the favourite).
> >
> > However, we don't fill in because we don't get enough gammons that way.
> > So this position shows the anti-DMP theme of sacrificing positions
> > and decreasing wins but compensating for it with gammons made.
> > In money play, many find this type of sacrifice difficult to make and
> > cashing when TG is another example akin to missing greedy bearoffs.
> > Not related to Bob's theme.
> >
> > However, your subsequent (deleted) variantization was indeed relevant
> > and thematically similar.
> > Thank you for all your variantizations and posts whether relevant or not.
> > They are always interesting.
> >
> > Paul
> Thanks, Tim, for the additions. My first impulse to post was just motivated by how unusual it is to bring two checkers right past a gap that looks like it was made for them
....

I look forward to reading your next book: "Teleological Backgammon", by Bob Zimmerman

Paul

Re: You don't see this too often

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Subject: Re: You don't see this too often
From: zimbrook...@gmail.com (Robert Zimmerman)
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 by: Robert Zimmerman - Fri, 28 Apr 2023 17:37 UTC

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:25:25 PM UTC-4, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 5:54:17 PM UTC+1, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> > On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:15:25 AM UTC-4, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:31:38 AM UTC+1, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > > > On 4/27/2023 8:34 PM, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> > > > > I didn't even consider running the stop sign.
> > > > >
> > > > > XGID=-BBbB-DC-B-------a-cbcbaa-:1:-1:1:44:0:2:0:7:10
> > > > >
> > > > > Score is X:0 O:2 7 pt.(s) match.
> > > > > +24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+
> > > > > | O O O O O O | | O | +---+
> > > > > | O O O O | | | | 2 |
> > > > > | O O | | | +---+
> > > > > | | | |
> > > > > | | | |
> > > > > | |BAR| |
> > > > > | | | |
> > > > > | X | | |
> > > > > | X | | X |
> > > > > | X X O X X | | X X |
> > > > > | X X O X X | | X X |
> > > > > +-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+
> > > > > Pip count X: 77 O: 101 X-O: 0-2/7
> > > > > Cube: 2, O own cube
> > > > > X to play 44
> > > > Nice one. Once you realize that leaving interior gaps is not
> > > > always a bad thing, you'll start to notice that such situations
> > > > crop up more frequently than you might think. Below are a couple
> > > > of examples from my files that you might find interesting.
> > > >
> > > > XGID=-ECbB-E-a---a------bcbbb--:1:-1:1:11:0:0:0:0:10
> > > >
> > > > Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> > > > +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> > > > | | | O O O O O | +---+
> > > > | | | O O O O O | | 2 |
> > > > | | | O | +---+
> > > > | | | |
> > > > | | | |
> > > > | |BAR| |
> > > > | | | X X |
> > > > | | | X X |
> > > > | | | X X X |
> > > > | | | X X O X X |
> > > > | O O | | X X O X X |
> > > > +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> > > > Pip count X: 49 O: 119 X-O: 0-0
> > > > Cube: 2, O own cube
> > > > X to play 11
> > > >
> > > > 1. Rollout¹ 6/4 1/Off(2) eq:+0.840
> > > > Player: 84.40% (G:21.64% B:0.08%)
> > > > Opponent: 15.60% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > > > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.837..+0.843) - [100.0%]
> > > >
> > > > 2. Rollout¹ 1/Off(4) eq:+0.801 (-0.039)
> > > > Player: 80.73% (G:26.80% B:0.30%)
> > > > Opponent: 19.27% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > > > Confidence: ±0.005 (+0.796..+0.806) - [0.0%]
> > > >
> > > > 3. Rollout¹ 6/5(2) 6/4 eq:+0.787 (-0.053)
> > > > Player: 85.21% (G:13.41% B:0.02%)
> > > > Opponent: 14.79% (G:0.28% B:0.01%)
> > > > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.784..+0.790) - [0.0%]
> > > >
> > > > 4. Rollout¹ 6/5(3) 1/Off eq:+0.752 (-0.088)
> > > > Player: 82.44% (G:16.95% B:0.05%)
> > > > Opponent: 17.56% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > > > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.749..+0.755) - [0.0%]
> > > >
> > > > ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> > > > Dice Seed: 271828
> > > > Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
> > > >
> > > > eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
> > > ....
> > > This position hardly reinforces Bob's theme!
> > > Bob (if I understand him correctly) is making the point (unfortunate
> > > unintended double meaning) that we don't always get the safest bearoff
> > > by filling in inner points.
> > >
> > > However, you say that you are giving a similar situation, but you
> > > present a position where filling in is in fact the safest.
> > > (Look at the percentage of games won by the favourite).
> > >
> > > However, we don't fill in because we don't get enough gammons that way.
> > > So this position shows the anti-DMP theme of sacrificing positions
> > > and decreasing wins but compensating for it with gammons made.
> > > In money play, many find this type of sacrifice difficult to make and
> > > cashing when TG is another example akin to missing greedy bearoffs.
> > > Not related to Bob's theme.
> > >
> > > However, your subsequent (deleted) variantization was indeed relevant
> > > and thematically similar.
> > > Thank you for all your variantizations and posts whether relevant or not.
> > > They are always interesting.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > Thanks, Tim, for the additions. My first impulse to post was just motivated by how unusual it is to bring two checkers right past a gap that looks like it was made for them
> ...
>
> I look forward to reading your next book: "Teleological Backgammon", by Bob Zimmerman
>
> Paul
How I wish Douglas Adams were still alive and writing!
Add to my list of trigger phrases: "Everything happens for a reason".
Bob

Re: You don't see this too often

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Subject: Re: You don't see this too often
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Fri, 28 Apr 2023 22:19 UTC

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 6:37:40 PM UTC+1, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:25:25 PM UTC-4, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 5:54:17 PM UTC+1, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:15:25 AM UTC-4, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:31:38 AM UTC+1, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > > > > On 4/27/2023 8:34 PM, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> > > > > > I didn't even consider running the stop sign.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > XGID=-BBbB-DC-B-------a-cbcbaa-:1:-1:1:44:0:2:0:7:10
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Score is X:0 O:2 7 pt.(s) match.
> > > > > > +24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+
> > > > > > | O O O O O O | | O | +---+
> > > > > > | O O O O | | | | 2 |
> > > > > > | O O | | | +---+
> > > > > > | | | |
> > > > > > | | | |
> > > > > > | |BAR| |
> > > > > > | | | |
> > > > > > | X | | |
> > > > > > | X | | X |
> > > > > > | X X O X X | | X X |
> > > > > > | X X O X X | | X X |
> > > > > > +-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+
> > > > > > Pip count X: 77 O: 101 X-O: 0-2/7
> > > > > > Cube: 2, O own cube
> > > > > > X to play 44
> > > > > Nice one. Once you realize that leaving interior gaps is not
> > > > > always a bad thing, you'll start to notice that such situations
> > > > > crop up more frequently than you might think. Below are a couple
> > > > > of examples from my files that you might find interesting.
> > > > >
> > > > > XGID=-ECbB-E-a---a------bcbbb--:1:-1:1:11:0:0:0:0:10
> > > > >
> > > > > Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> > > > > +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> > > > > | | | O O O O O | +---+
> > > > > | | | O O O O O | | 2 |
> > > > > | | | O | +---+
> > > > > | | | |
> > > > > | | | |
> > > > > | |BAR| |
> > > > > | | | X X |
> > > > > | | | X X |
> > > > > | | | X X X |
> > > > > | | | X X O X X |
> > > > > | O O | | X X O X X |
> > > > > +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> > > > > Pip count X: 49 O: 119 X-O: 0-0
> > > > > Cube: 2, O own cube
> > > > > X to play 11
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Rollout¹ 6/4 1/Off(2) eq:+0.840
> > > > > Player: 84.40% (G:21.64% B:0.08%)
> > > > > Opponent: 15.60% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > > > > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.837..+0.843) - [100.0%]
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. Rollout¹ 1/Off(4) eq:+0.801 (-0.039)
> > > > > Player: 80.73% (G:26.80% B:0.30%)
> > > > > Opponent: 19.27% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > > > > Confidence: ±0.005 (+0.796..+0.806) - [0.0%]
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. Rollout¹ 6/5(2) 6/4 eq:+0.787 (-0.053)
> > > > > Player: 85.21% (G:13.41% B:0.02%)
> > > > > Opponent: 14.79% (G:0.28% B:0.01%)
> > > > > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.784..+0.790) - [0.0%]
> > > > >
> > > > > 4. Rollout¹ 6/5(3) 1/Off eq:+0.752 (-0.088)
> > > > > Player: 82.44% (G:16.95% B:0.05%)
> > > > > Opponent: 17.56% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
> > > > > Confidence: ±0.003 (+0.749..+0.755) - [0.0%]
> > > > >
> > > > > ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> > > > > Dice Seed: 271828
> > > > > Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
> > > > >
> > > > > eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
> > > > ....
> > > > This position hardly reinforces Bob's theme!
> > > > Bob (if I understand him correctly) is making the point (unfortunate
> > > > unintended double meaning) that we don't always get the safest bearoff
> > > > by filling in inner points.
> > > >
> > > > However, you say that you are giving a similar situation, but you
> > > > present a position where filling in is in fact the safest.
> > > > (Look at the percentage of games won by the favourite).
> > > >
> > > > However, we don't fill in because we don't get enough gammons that way.
> > > > So this position shows the anti-DMP theme of sacrificing positions
> > > > and decreasing wins but compensating for it with gammons made.
> > > > In money play, many find this type of sacrifice difficult to make and
> > > > cashing when TG is another example akin to missing greedy bearoffs.
> > > > Not related to Bob's theme.
> > > >
> > > > However, your subsequent (deleted) variantization was indeed relevant
> > > > and thematically similar.
> > > > Thank you for all your variantizations and posts whether relevant or not.
> > > > They are always interesting.
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > Thanks, Tim, for the additions. My first impulse to post was just motivated by how unusual it is to bring two checkers right past a gap that looks like it was made for them
> > ...
> >
> > I look forward to reading your next book: "Teleological Backgammon", by Bob Zimmerman
> >
> > Paul
> How I wish Douglas Adams were still alive and writing!

Me too, but if he were writing while dead, I'd be even more impressed.

Paul

Re: You don't see this too often

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Subject: Re: You don't see this too often
From: ttexasho...@gmail.com (tetraHydro saved my life)
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 by: tetraHydro saved my - Sat, 29 Apr 2023 04:48 UTC

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 5:34:46 PM UTC-7, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> I didn't even consider running the stop sign.
>
> XGID=-BBbB-DC-B-------a-cbcbaa-:1:-1:1:44:0:2:0:7:10
>
Is there a way to see this position for those who don't have XG software.
There used to be a way to set the font to courier but it doesn't seem to be available anymore on google groups

Re: You don't see this too often

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Subject: Re: You don't see this too often
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Sat, 29 Apr 2023 11:19 UTC

On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 5:48:51 AM UTC+1, tetraHydro saved my life wrote:
> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 5:34:46 PM UTC-7, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> > I didn't even consider running the stop sign.
> >
> > XGID=-BBbB-DC-B-------a-cbcbaa-:1:-1:1:44:0:2:0:7:10
> >
> Is there a way to see this position for those who don't have XG software.
....

The diagrams are usually available in https://bglog.org/rgbnews.html
However, I have noticed a significant lag (at least several hours) between
diagrams posted and their availability at the above URL.

If you can't find the diagram at the above link, use:
https://bglog.org/main.html -> Off-board data -> Show ... IDs

I believe that Simon Woodhead created this website.
He posts to this forum approx once every 3 months or so.

Paul

Re: You don't see this too often

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Subject: Re: You don't see this too often
From: ttexasho...@gmail.com (tetraHydro saved my life)
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 by: tetraHydro saved my - Sat, 29 Apr 2023 21:24 UTC

On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 4:19:40 AM UTC-7, peps wrote:
> On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 5:48:51 AM UTC+1, tetraHydro saved my life wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 5:34:46 PM UTC-7, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
> > > I didn't even consider running the stop sign.
> > >
> > > XGID=-BBbB-DC-B-------a-cbcbaa-:1:-1:1:44:0:2:0:7:10
> > >
> > Is there a way to see this position for those who don't have XG software.
> ...
>
> The diagrams are usually available in https://bglog.org/rgbnews.html
> However, I have noticed a significant lag (at least several hours) between
> diagrams posted and their availability at the above URL.
>
> If you can't find the diagram at the above link, use:
> https://bglog.org/main.html -> Off-board data -> Show ... IDs
>
> I believe that Simon Woodhead created this website.
> He posts to this forum approx once every 3 months or so.
>
> Paul
sweeet! I'd forgot all about that site. (happens a lot these days)
https://apbg.net/bg_diagrams.php works too

Re: You don't see this too often

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Subject: Re: You don't see this too often
Date: Tue, 9 May 2023 20:48:54 +1000
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 by: Simon Woodhead - Tue, 9 May 2023 10:48 UTC

Sorry for the late reply, I've been busy building the new bglog.

The link below is still working. The news feed is polled every hour
so it should remain reasonably up to date.

If anyone wants to beta test the new bglog, send me an email.

Cheers,

-Simon.

On 29/04/2023 9:19 pm, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 5:48:51 AM UTC+1, tetraHydro saved my life wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 5:34:46 PM UTC-7, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
>>> I didn't even consider running the stop sign.
>>>
>>> XGID=-BBbB-DC-B-------a-cbcbaa-:1:-1:1:44:0:2:0:7:10
>>>
>> Is there a way to see this position for those who don't have XG software.
> ...
>
> The diagrams are usually available in https://bglog.org/rgbnews.html
> However, I have noticed a significant lag (at least several hours) between
> diagrams posted and their availability at the above URL.
>
> If you can't find the diagram at the above link, use:
> https://bglog.org/main.html -> Off-board data -> Show ... IDs
>
> I believe that Simon Woodhead created this website.
> He posts to this forum approx once every 3 months or so.
>
> Paul

1
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