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interests / alt.language.latin / Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TER

SubjectAuthor
* PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCASJeff Hill
`* Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCASEd Cryer
 `* Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS BISJeff Hill
  `* Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS BISEd Cryer
   `* Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TERJeff Hill
    `* Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TEREd Cryer
     `* Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TERJeff Hill
      `- Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TERJeff Hill

1
PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS

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From: jeffjeff...@gmail.com (Jeff Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 02:36:46 +1000
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 by: Jeff Hill - Thu, 22 Apr 2021 16:36 UTC

Good-day Ed (and others?)

In this sentence, composed by the SCRIBA VATICANVS,

PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS IN VASIBVS INCERTI GENERIS ET
AMPHORIS PLERVMQVE LOCIS NVLLIS MVTATIONIBVS VMQVAM OBNOXIIS,
VIDELICET SEPVLCRIS, CVM INSCRIPTIONIBVS ETRVSCIS REPERTAE SVNT

ETRVSCAS is fairly obviously a miswriting for ETRVSCAE -- I would
connect the wordform ETRVSCAE, CASV NOMINATIVO, with the verb at the
end of the sentence, rather than, CASV ACCVSATIVO, following the
particle PRAETEREA, which is here only a conjunction, I think, and
conjunctions do not govern the accusative case;

what bamboozles me, however, is what the scribe means in the central
clause, LOCIS NVLLIS MVTATIONIBVS VMQVAM OBNOXIIS, which I punctuate
with a comma after LOCIS,

LOCIS, NVLLIS MVTATIONIBVS VMQVAM OBNOXIIS

and attempt to translate all of it as

Moreover, non Etruscan inscriptions, on vessels and wine jugs of an
unspecified sort, have generally been found "in places, without ever
any obligatory changes", apparently in tombs, together with Etruscan
inscriptions.

I am dissatisfied with the awkwardness of the English translation, and
I fear that, once again, the geist of the sentence has sailed over my
head.

Do you judge the Latin sentence to be awkward? It should literally
translate something like: "that both Etruscan inscriptions and also
non Etruscan inscriptions have been found scratched on exactly the
same stuff and stored (by entirely different races) in the same tomb."
Or am I just not seeing it right?

Jeff Hill
Sydney.

Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS

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From: ed...@somewhere.in.the.uk (Ed Cryer)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:15:47 +0100
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 by: Ed Cryer - Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:15 UTC

Jeff Hill wrote:
> Good-day Ed (and others?)
>
> In this sentence, composed by the SCRIBA VATICANVS,
>
> PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS IN VASIBVS INCERTI GENERIS ET
> AMPHORIS PLERVMQVE LOCIS NVLLIS MVTATIONIBVS VMQVAM OBNOXIIS,
> VIDELICET SEPVLCRIS, CVM INSCRIPTIONIBVS ETRVSCIS REPERTAE SVNT
>
> ETRVSCAS is fairly obviously a miswriting for ETRVSCAE -- I would
> connect the wordform ETRVSCAE, CASV NOMINATIVO, with the verb at the
> end of the sentence, rather than, CASV ACCVSATIVO, following the
> particle PRAETEREA, which is here only a conjunction, I think, and
> conjunctions do not govern the accusative case;
>
> what bamboozles me, however, is what the scribe means in the central
> clause, LOCIS NVLLIS MVTATIONIBVS VMQVAM OBNOXIIS, which I punctuate
> with a comma after LOCIS,
>
> LOCIS, NVLLIS MVTATIONIBVS VMQVAM OBNOXIIS
>
> and attempt to translate all of it as
>
> Moreover, non Etruscan inscriptions, on vessels and wine jugs of an
> unspecified sort, have generally been found "in places, without ever
> any obligatory changes", apparently in tombs, together with Etruscan
> inscriptions.
>
> I am dissatisfied with the awkwardness of the English translation, and
> I fear that, once again, the geist of the sentence has sailed over my
> head.
>
> Do you judge the Latin sentence to be awkward? It should literally
> translate something like: "that both Etruscan inscriptions and also
> non Etruscan inscriptions have been found scratched on exactly the
> same stuff and stored (by entirely different races) in the same tomb."
> Or am I just not seeing it right?
>
> Jeff Hill
> Sydney.
>

When someone writes such bad Latin, why should we scramble to fathom his
meaning?
Still, I'll give it a shot.

My gut feeling on first reading was that whatever the phrase in front of
it means, VIDELICET SEPVLCRIS is the resolution of it. Something like
"places ......... , quite obviously tombs". So we have to assume that
they didn't have a marker in them saying "this is a tomb". (:-
I take it that a new phrase begins at PLERVMQVE, and that NVLLIS
MVTATIONIBVS VMQVAM OBNOXIIS is an ablative of description attached to
LOCIS, or, perhaps an ablative absolute aside comment that should go in
brackets (NVLLIS MVTATIONIBVS VMQVAM OBNOXIIS). Usually in places (no
changes are ever ........), which are obviously tombs.

Ed

Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS BIS

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From: jeffjeff...@gmail.com (Jeff Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS BIS
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:48:08 +1000
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 by: Jeff Hill - Thu, 22 Apr 2021 21:48 UTC

On Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:15:47 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrote:

Good-day Ed,

Thank you for your response.

Belatedly I supply the sentence which immediately preceded my quote:

CONSTAT ENIM EA AETATE VRBEM ATRIAM ROMANVM ASPECTVM PRAE SE TVLISSE.

which means, approximately,

for there is agreement that, in that period, the town of Adria bore
Roman aspects.

but I would be obliged to read something from you about it, about that
terminating clause. Did you really need to "scramble" yesterday, to
respond to my question PER DIEM VNVM? GRATES TIBI AGO.

Then follows the sentence I have previously cited:

PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS (ID EST ETRVSCAE) IN VASIBVS
INCERTI GENERIS ET AMPHORIS PLERVMQVE LOCIS <,> NVLLIS MVTATIONIBVS
VMQVAM OBNOXIIS, VIDELICET SEPVLCRIS, CVM INSCRIPTIONIBVS ETRVSCIS
REPERTAE SVNT.

which, absorbing your advice, and introducing a particle "otherwise"
which is not in the Latin version, I now English as

Moreover, non Etruscan inscriptions, (scratched) on vessels and wine
jugs of an unspecified (= generic) sort, have generally been found in
places -- without any other of the <otherwise> obligatory changes --
that is, in tombs, together with Etruscan inscriptions.

Hence, the inscriptions of other races, such as Greeks, were scratched
on pottery no different to Etruscan pottery, and were tossed into
tombs, with prior Etruscan habitants, in the same careless way and
according to careless customs indistinguishable from those of the
Etruscans. The non Etruscan people in the pots can obviously only be
distinguished from Etruscan people in other pots by the writing on the
pots.

Duh.

That sentence, written by professors, is just not the sharpest, most
subtle statement ever made, only mostly common sense.

Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS BIS

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From: ecrye...@hotmail.com (Ed Cryer)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS BIS
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:01:31 +0100
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 by: Ed Cryer - Fri, 23 Apr 2021 08:01 UTC

Jeff Hill <jeffjeff.hillhill@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:15:47 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
> wrote:
>
> Good-day Ed,
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
> Belatedly I supply the sentence which immediately preceded my quote:
>
> CONSTAT ENIM EA AETATE VRBEM ATRIAM ROMANVM ASPECTVM PRAE SE TVLISSE.
>
> which means, approximately,
>
> for there is agreement that, in that period, the town of Adria bore
> Roman aspects.
>
> but I would be obliged to read something from you about it, about that
> terminating clause. Did you really need to "scramble" yesterday, to
> respond to my question PER DIEM VNVM? GRATES TIBI AGO.
>
> Then follows the sentence I have previously cited:
>
> PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS (ID EST ETRVSCAE) IN VASIBVS
> INCERTI GENERIS ET AMPHORIS PLERVMQVE LOCIS <,> NVLLIS MVTATIONIBVS
> VMQVAM OBNOXIIS, VIDELICET SEPVLCRIS, CVM INSCRIPTIONIBVS ETRVSCIS
> REPERTAE SVNT.
>
> which, absorbing your advice, and introducing a particle "otherwise"
> which is not in the Latin version, I now English as
>
> Moreover, non Etruscan inscriptions, (scratched) on vessels and wine
> jugs of an unspecified (= generic) sort, have generally been found in
> places -- without any other of the <otherwise> obligatory changes --
> that is, in tombs, together with Etruscan inscriptions.
>
> Hence, the inscriptions of other races, such as Greeks, were scratched
> on pottery no different to Etruscan pottery, and were tossed into
> tombs, with prior Etruscan habitants, in the same careless way and
> according to careless customs indistinguishable from those of the
> Etruscans. The non Etruscan people in the pots can obviously only be
> distinguished from Etruscan people in other pots by the writing on the
> pots.
>
> Duh.
>
> That sentence, written by professors, is just not the sharpest, most
> subtle statement ever made, only mostly common sense.
>

I think I got it after a good night’s sleep.
Too many -is -is -is.
Obnoxiis goes with locis.
Mostly in places not liable to any changes, obviousy tombs.

--
Ed

Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TER

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From: jeffjeff...@gmail.com (Jeff Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TER
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 00:13:57 +1000
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 by: Jeff Hill - Fri, 23 Apr 2021 14:13 UTC

On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:01:31 +0100, Ed Cryer <ecryer52@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>I think I got it after a good night’s sleep.
>Too many -is -is -is.
>Obnoxiis goes with locis.
>Mostly in places not liable to any changes, obviousy tombs.

Once again, you have nailed it, Ed.

PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAE IN VASIBVS INCERTI GENERIS ET
AMPHORIS PLERVMQVE LOCIS NVLLIS MVTATIONIBVS VMQVAM OBNOXIIS,
VIDELICET SEPVLCRIS, CVM INSCRIPTIONIBVS ETRVSCIS REPERTAE SVNT

Moreover, non Etruscan inscriptions, on vessels and wine jugs of an
unspecified sort, have very often been found in places subject to no
changes ever, evidently tombs, together with Etruscan inscriptions.

I removed my comma after LOCIS, and saw that there was no ablative
absolute clause here, the existence of which we had discussed for a
microsecond, but, although the AVCTOR VATICANVS's Latin is generally
admirable, he did write the rubbish ETRVSCAS instead of ETRVSCAE.

In the same short paragraph he has written, or the printer has wrongly
printed,

BONONIESIS PRO BONONIENSIS (a very Italian elision of a letter -N-);

Q. D. ..... NVNCVPATVM =
QVOD DICITVR ..... NVNCVPATVM, which is called ..... is called
instead of either Q. D. or else NVNCVPATVM, but not both;

and POTEO PRO POTERO.

One has to be alert to read and enjoy his elegant classical Latin
mixed with odd mistakes.

Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TER

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From: ed...@somewhere.in.the.uk (Ed Cryer)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TER
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 19:04:16 +0100
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 by: Ed Cryer - Fri, 23 Apr 2021 18:04 UTC

Jeff Hill wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:01:31 +0100, Ed Cryer <ecryer52@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think I got it after a good night’s sleep.
>> Too many -is -is -is.
>> Obnoxiis goes with locis.
>> Mostly in places not liable to any changes, obviousy tombs.
>
> Once again, you have nailed it, Ed.
>
> PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAE IN VASIBVS INCERTI GENERIS ET
> AMPHORIS PLERVMQVE LOCIS NVLLIS MVTATIONIBVS VMQVAM OBNOXIIS,
> VIDELICET SEPVLCRIS, CVM INSCRIPTIONIBVS ETRVSCIS REPERTAE SVNT
>
> Moreover, non Etruscan inscriptions, on vessels and wine jugs of an
> unspecified sort, have very often been found in places subject to no
> changes ever, evidently tombs, together with Etruscan inscriptions.
>
> I removed my comma after LOCIS, and saw that there was no ablative
> absolute clause here, the existence of which we had discussed for a
> microsecond, but, although the AVCTOR VATICANVS's Latin is generally
> admirable, he did write the rubbish ETRVSCAS instead of ETRVSCAE.
>
> In the same short paragraph he has written, or the printer has wrongly
> printed,
>
> BONONIESIS PRO BONONIENSIS (a very Italian elision of a letter -N-);
>
> Q. D. ..... NVNCVPATVM =
> QVOD DICITVR ..... NVNCVPATVM, which is called ..... is called
> instead of either Q. D. or else NVNCVPATVM, but not both;
>
> and POTEO PRO POTERO.
>
> One has to be alert to read and enjoy his elegant classical Latin
> mixed with odd mistakes.
>

The people who resurrected ancient texts in the Renaissance knew about
such things. Monastery shelves with the odd ancient pre-Christian book
or scroll carrying not only scribe mistakes but mouse-chewed,
mildew-soaked bits and pieces.

It was especially noticeable in Greek texts. Many of the old monastery
scribes knew no Greek, and they just copied the whorls and swirls that
they saw.

You've awakened an interest in me for pre-classical Italy, and where the
Latins came from. I take it that the Etruscans (an outpost of the Sea
People) were there when the Latins arrived, and that would have been c.
1200BC.
Both Etruscan and Latin are Indo-european languages.
Could you recommend a recent book for me to read; preferably one that
speculates from the archaeological evidence rather than the Roman myth.

Ed

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Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TER
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 by: Jeff Hill - Fri, 23 Apr 2021 23:58 UTC

On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 19:04:16 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrote:

>I take it that the Etruscans (an outpost of the Sea
>People) were there when the Latins arrived, and that would have been c.
>1200BC.
>Both Etruscan and Latin are Indo-european languages.

Good-day Ed, That last statement of yours is a controversial one, and
will cause one half of Etruscologists to slander you, and one half to
support you. I definitely don't know exactly what to look for, yet,
after years and years of reading the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM ETRVSCARVM
and the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM LATINARVM and the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM
GRAECARVM, I cannot see more than one or two vague similarities in one
or two of the wordforms ("EGO" CASV NOMINATIVO = "ME" ETRVSCE, AT "ME"
CASV ACCVSATIVO = MINI ETRVSCE is interesting), but that's about all.
Both languages have small words for small things, for pronouns and
prepositions and conjunctions and so on, but apart from that
(accidental?) similarity (ME / MINI) they are always dissimilar. The
word for wine was presumably borrowed by one race from the other race,
or both from an another ancient race of drunks. In the longest texts
it is difficult to see what is going on, yet I detect nothing
Indoeuropean about Etruscan. On the other hand, with your formidible
(formidable?) background in Latin, you could read an Umbrian or other
Sabinic or Greek or ancient Indian text with some understanding. One
of the bestest books, still, by far, is Massimo Pallottino's
"Etruscology", translated into English by David Ridgway, both men
splendid results of Etruscomania. Edition 15 or something by now. The
book, and another good one, James Wellard's "In Search Of The
Etruscans", fail your criteria of "recent" but are nevertheless
timeless. What was your request again? In my opinion, the Etruscans
were the original cavedwelling neanderthals of Italy, hence their
language is one composed of grunts and hisses, and they learned late,
perhaps by watching the Greeks and Trojans returning and fleeing from
Anatolia, how to scratch their lingo onto their possessions using a
bastardised alphabet or rather twenty five differing alphabets. I am
close to polishing off a study of all 22, 000 Etruscan inscriptions,
and I think that I can detect local dialects used under the Roman
empire in the different Etruscan towns (when ehe Romans stabbed 1,
000, 000 Etruscans to death, but allowed a lot to migrate to Rome too
(perhaps the TVLLII and the VERGILII families? see how confused I
am?).

Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TER

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From: jeffjeff...@gmail.com (Jeff Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: PRAETEREA, INSCRIPTIONES HAVD ETRVSCAS TER
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 10:37:54 +1000
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 by: Jeff Hill - Sat, 24 Apr 2021 00:37 UTC

On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 09:58:16 +1000, Jeff Hill
<jeffjeff.hillhill@gmail.com> wrote:

Good-day Ed,

I regret writing "Sabinic" -- I was trying to think of "Sabellic".

The authors of those two books, and the translator of MAXIMVS
PALLOTTINIVS, do, despite the titles of the books, speak much about
ancient Italians, not necessarily only about the Etruscans.

A general booklet (big books are big bores, I reckon, CORPORIBVS
INSCRIPTIONVM EXCEPTIS) is A. C. Brown's "Ancient Italy Before The
Romans".

Rex E. Wallace's book "The Sabellic Languages Of Ancient Italy" might
interest you.

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