Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Money isn't everything -- but it's a long way ahead of what comes next. -- Sir Edmond Stockdale


interests / soc.culture.china / Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will China accept that scenario?

SubjectAuthor
* US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will Chinaltlee1
+* Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Willltlee1
|`- Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Willltlee1
+- Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Willltlee1
`- Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Willltlee1

1
US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will China accept that scenario?

<b981405d-5f27-4f07-a802-6b9a9b42bc2cn@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=12048&group=soc.culture.china#12048

  copy link   Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:18ed:b0:56f:605:dc88 with SMTP id ep13-20020a05621418ed00b0056f0605dc88mr3587587qvb.7.1677371056675;
Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:24:16 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a54:4606:0:b0:383:e7b5:8177 with SMTP id
p6-20020a544606000000b00383e7b58177mr2403519oip.11.1677371056263; Sat, 25 Feb
2023 16:24:16 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:24:16 -0800 (PST)
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=107.15.133.242; posting-account=sQgtagoAAAB2Cf4qBTW8cwfp7bDiKK3s
NNTP-Posting-Host: 107.15.133.242
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <b981405d-5f27-4f07-a802-6b9a9b42bc2cn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will China
accept that scenario?
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
Injection-Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 00:24:16 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
X-Received-Bytes: 7239
 by: ltlee1 - Sun, 26 Feb 2023 00:24 UTC

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
乌克兰危机与中国的选择
晨枫
军事撰稿人
古今多少事,都付笑谈中昨天 08:02

乌克兰危机对中国是前所未有的挑战,也是前所未有的机会。中国是举足轻重的大国,但像现在这样掌握事关世界大局的胜负手,对中国还是头一次。

在危机爆发的时候,中国顶住美欧的巨大压力,坚持中立和与俄罗斯的正常贸易。必须说,中国的榜样成为代表世界上85%人口的国家的挡箭牌。

乌克兰危机是两边三方的战争,俄罗斯和乌克兰是交战的双方,美国是决定乌克兰能否打下去的第三方。美国不仅为乌克兰提供决定性的经济援助,更是乌克兰军事装备和物资的主要来源。中国并不决定俄罗斯是否能打下去,中国与俄罗斯保持正常经贸联系,但中国没有为俄罗斯提供援助,不管是经济的,还是军事的。

俄罗斯不需要中国的经济援助。然而,如果中国对俄罗斯提供军事援助,乌克兰几乎没有避免战败的希望。不管是C4ISR,精确制导弹药,还是最简单的152毫米炮弹和122毫米火箭弹,中国出手,就是泰山压顶。这是美国式技术和俄罗斯式数量的碾压级组合,美国和北约下场或许能接招,但那就要准备一起接俄罗斯的核大棒了。

通过乌克兰危机,美国和北约对俄罗斯的常规军力已经不放在眼里了,但对俄罗斯的核大棒还是很忌讳。核战争是常规军事力量差距的有力均衡器。中国外交部在乌克兰危机一周年之际发表《关于政治解决乌克兰危机的中国立场》。好玩的是,西方首先注意到的中国反对使用和威胁使用核武器的立场,核武器用不得,核战争打不得。这不是中国第一次表达这样的立场,但在西方的解读里,这成为中国对乌克兰危机立场的第一条,而实际上这是中国立场里的第8条,只能说明西方对俄罗斯的核大棒是真忌讳。

美国和俄罗斯都想把乌克兰危机往有限战争的方向引导,但有限战争是要有信心、有能力把战争无限化才做得到的,为有限而有限是注定要失败的。但有俄罗斯核大棒在,美国就不敢使得战争无限化;有美国军援在,俄罗斯也没法使得战争有限化。乌克兰危机正在走向“无限的有限战争”:在烈度上有限,在时间上无限。

乌克兰危机长期化已成定局,唯一的问题是多长期。

西方已经走上逐步升级的死路,走不出来了。为了争取战场主动,西方只有不断加码,提高军援的层次和力度,现在突破了“不提供坦克”的门槛,进一步突破“不提供战斗机”的门槛只是时间问题,因为西方对乌克兰的军援已经到了不升级就不能使得战局对乌克兰有利的方向。西方还在一心想打赢,而且也确实需要尽快打赢。

俄罗斯方面针锋相对,宣称军援武器射程越远,俄军打击范围越远。可以想象,西方战斗机和ATACMS导弹到达后,利沃夫、敖德萨这些地方也都不能免受打击了,而且不只是零星打击。

乌克兰危机有限升级的前景就在眼前,但无限升级还是不大可能,俄罗斯和美欧都不会为乌克兰搭上自己的身家性命。

在这种情况下,中国立场尤其关键。中国也在乌克兰危机一周年之际,出台了中国的立场文件。

必须说,没有多少新意,内容基本上危机初期中国已经表明了。美国、北约和欧盟都指责中国缺乏诚意,只要不跟着他们制裁俄罗斯、迫使俄罗斯无条件投降,都是缺乏诚意,这不出意外。

中国的立场其实诚意满满:首先就地停火,然后政治解决。这不是偏向俄罗斯立场,而是最现实的路径。如果连就地停火也做不到,肯定谈不上政治解决;如果不政治解决,就只有军事解决;如果军事解决,无限升级是唯一途径;如果无限升级不可行,那就只有无限期冲突;如果无限期冲突损害所有人的利益,那还是只有回到首先就地停火。
...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=942142

Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will China accept that scenario?

<ddee006b-0d11-4b0a-9684-d1b9e74a4a12n@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=12049&group=soc.culture.china#12049

  copy link   Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:608a:b0:742:778d:79e6 with SMTP id dx10-20020a05620a608a00b00742778d79e6mr1726587qkb.5.1677374410060;
Sat, 25 Feb 2023 17:20:10 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:7732:b0:16d:dec4:67bb with SMTP id
dw50-20020a056870773200b0016ddec467bbmr2366723oab.9.1677374409692; Sat, 25
Feb 2023 17:20:09 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 17:20:09 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <b981405d-5f27-4f07-a802-6b9a9b42bc2cn@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=107.15.133.242; posting-account=sQgtagoAAAB2Cf4qBTW8cwfp7bDiKK3s
NNTP-Posting-Host: 107.15.133.242
References: <b981405d-5f27-4f07-a802-6b9a9b42bc2cn@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <ddee006b-0d11-4b0a-9684-d1b9e74a4a12n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will
China accept that scenario?
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
Injection-Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 01:20:10 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
X-Received-Bytes: 14959
 by: ltlee1 - Sun, 26 Feb 2023 01:20 UTC

On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:24:17 AM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 乌克兰危机与中国的选择
> 晨枫
> 军事撰稿人
> 古今多少事,都付笑谈中昨天 08:02
> 乌克兰危机对中国是前所未有的挑战,也是前所未有的机会。中国是举足轻重的大国,但像现在这样掌握事关世界大局的胜负手,对中国还是头一次。
> 在危机爆发的时候,中国顶住美欧的巨大压力,坚持中立和与俄罗斯的正常贸易。必须说,中国的榜样成为代表世界上85%人口的国家的挡箭牌。
> 乌克兰危机是两边三方的战争,俄罗斯和乌克兰是交战的双方,美国是决定乌克兰能否打下去的第三方。美国不仅为乌克兰提供决定性的经济援助,更是乌克兰军事装备和物资的主要来源。中国并不决定俄罗斯是否能打下去,中国与俄罗斯保持正常经贸联系,但中国没有为俄罗斯提供援助,不管是经济的,还是军事的。
> 俄罗斯不需要中国的经济援助。然而,如果中国对俄罗斯提供军事援助,乌克兰几乎没有避免战败的希望。不管是C4ISR,精确制导弹药,还是最简单的152毫米炮弹和122毫米火箭弹,中国出手,就是泰山压顶。这是美国式技术和俄罗斯式数量的碾压级组合,美国和北约下场或许能接招,但那就要准备一起接俄罗斯的核大棒了。
> 通过乌克兰危机,美国和北约对俄罗斯的常规军力已经不放在眼里了,但对俄罗斯的核大棒还是很忌讳。核战争是常规军事力量差距的有力均衡器。中国外交部在乌克兰危机一周年之际发表《关于政治解决乌克兰危机的中国立场》。好玩的是,西方首先注意到的中国反对使用和威胁使用核武器的立场,核武器用不得,核战争打不得。这不是中国第一次表达这样的立场,但在西方的解读里,这成为中国对乌克兰危机立场的第一条,而实际上这是中国立场里的第8条,只能说明西方对俄罗斯的核大棒是真忌讳。
> 美国和俄罗斯都想把乌克兰危机往有限战争的方向引导,但有限战争是要有信心、有能力把战争无限化才做得到的,为有限而有限是注定要失败的。但有俄罗斯核大棒在,美国就不敢使得战争无限化;有美国军援在,俄罗斯也没法使得战争有限化。乌克兰危机正在走向“无限的有限战争”:在烈度上有限,在时间上无限。
> 乌克兰危机长期化已成定局,唯一的问题是多长期。
> 西方已经走上逐步升级的死路,走不出来了。为了争取战场主动,西方只有不断加码,提高军援的层次和力度,现在突破了“不提供坦克”的门槛,进一步突破“不提供战斗机”的门槛只是时间问题,因为西方对乌克兰的军援已经到了不升级就不能使得战局对乌克兰有利的方向。西方还在一心想打赢,而且也确实需要尽快打赢。
> 俄罗斯方面针锋相对,宣称军援武器射程越远,俄军打击范围越远。可以想象,西方战斗机和ATACMS导弹到达后,利沃夫、敖德萨这些地方也都不能免受打击了,而且不只是零星打击。
> 乌克兰危机有限升级的前景就在眼前,但无限升级还是不大可能,俄罗斯和美欧都不会为乌克兰搭上自己的身家性命。
> 在这种情况下,中国立场尤其关键。中国也在乌克兰危机一周年之际,出台了中国的立场文件。
> 必须说,没有多少新意,内容基本上危机初期中国已经表明了。美国、北约和欧盟都指责中国缺乏诚意,只要不跟着他们制裁俄罗斯、迫使俄罗斯无条件投降,都是缺乏诚意,这不出意外。
> 中国的立场其实诚意满满:首先就地停火,然后政治解决。这不是偏向俄罗斯立场,而是最现实的路径。如果连就地停火也做不到,肯定谈不上政治解决;如果不政治解决,就只有军事解决;如果军事解决,无限升级是唯一途径;如果无限升级不可行,那就只有无限期冲突;如果无限期冲突损害所有人的利益,那还是只有回到首先就地停火。
> ...
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=942142
"The Ukrainian crisis is both an unprecedented challenge and an unprecedented opportunity for China. China is a world power of great importance, but it is the first time that China could determine who win and who lose in a world changing event.
When the crisis broke out, China withstood the enormous pressure from the US and Europe. It insisted on neutrality and normal trade with Russia. It must be said that China's example has provided the shield for other countries representing 85% of the world's population.
The Ukrainian crisis is a war between two sides with three parties. Russia and Ukraine are the two sides at war, and the United States is the third party that decides whether Ukraine can survive. The United States not only provides decisive economic assistance to Ukraine, but also is the main source of Ukrainian military equipment and supplies. China does not decide whether Russia can continue to fight. It maintains normal economic and trade relations with Russia, but it does not provide Russia with assistance, economically or militarily.
Russia does not need Chinese economic aid. However, Ukraine has little hope of avoiding defeat if China provides military aid to Russia. Whether it is C4ISR, precision-guided munitions, or the simplest 152mm artillery shells and 122mm rockets. Chinese weapons and supplies would be overwhelming. This is a crushing combination of American-style technology and Russian-style numbers. The United States and NATO may be able to take the hit, but then they must be prepared for Russia's nuclear big stick.
Through the Ukrainian crisis, the United States and NATO can look down on Russia's conventional military power, but they are still very worry about Russia's nuclear stick. Nuclear war is a powerful equalizer of conventional military power gaps. On the first anniversary of the Ukrainian crisis, the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs published "China's Position on the Political Solution to the Ukrainian Crisis." Interestingly, China's stance against the use and threat of use of nuclear weapons was immediately noticed by the West. Nuclear weapons cannot be used and nuclear war cannot be fought. This is not the first time that China has expressed such a position, but in the interpretation of the West, this has become the first article of China's position on the Ukraine crisis, but in fact this is the eighth article of China's position. This only shows the West's attitude towards Russia's nuclear big stick.
Both the United States and Russia want to guide the Ukrainian crisis in the direction of limited war, but limited war can only be achieved with confidence and ability to fight an unlimited war. Limited war for limited war's sake is doomed to failure. Facing Russian nuclear big stick, the United States does not dare to unlimit the war. With US military aid, Russia would not be able to limit the war. The Ukrainian crisis is moving towards an "unlimited limited war": limited in intensity but unlimited in time.
The protracted Ukraine crisis is a foregone conclusion, the only question is how long.
The West has embarked on a dead ended road of gradual escalation and cannot get itself out. In order to maintain battlefield, the West must increase its chips by upgrading the level and intensity of military aid. Now it has crossed the threshold of "no tanks", crossing the threshold of "no fighter jets" is just a matter of time. West's military aid to Ukraine has already reached a stage: It is impossible to make the war situation favorable to Ukraine without escalation. The West is still bent on winning, and it really needs to win as soon as possible.
The Russian side is tit-for-tat, declaring that the farther the range of military aid weapons is, the farther the Russian army will strike. It is conceivable that after the arrival of Western fighter jets and ATACMS missiles, places such as Lviv and Odessa will not be immune to attacks, and not just sporadic attacks.
The prospect of a limited escalation of the Ukrainian crisis is in sight, but an unlimited escalation is still unlikely. Neither Russia nor the United States and Europe will risk their lives for Ukraine.
In this context, China's position is particularly critical. China also issued its position paper on the first anniversary of the Ukraine crisis.
It must be said that there are not many new ideas, and the content has basically been expressed by China in the early stage of the crisis. The United States, NATO, and the European Union all accuse China of lack of sincerity. As long as they do not follow them to sanction Russia and force Russia to surrender unconditionally, it is lack of sincerity. Not surprising.
China's position is actually full of sincerity: first cease fire on the spot, and then resolve it politically. This is not a Russian position, but the most realistic path. If a on the spot cease fire cannot be achieved, there will be no political solution; if there is no political solution, only military solution is available. If there is only military solution, unlimited escalation is one way. If unlimited escalation is not feasible, then there is only an indefinite conflict. If an indefinite conflict harms the interests of all, the only option is to go back to on the spot cease fire as the first step.

Click here to read the complete article

Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will China accept that scenario?

<04e862a7-3c1a-465b-9359-1fc918e4af61n@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=12058&group=soc.culture.china#12058

  copy link   Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4f12:0:b0:56e:f7df:f03d with SMTP id fb18-20020ad44f12000000b0056ef7dff03dmr4092166qvb.2.1677441985970;
Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:06:25 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9568:b0:172:3d66:c418 with SMTP id
v40-20020a056870956800b001723d66c418mr2886507oal.6.1677441985602; Sun, 26 Feb
2023 12:06:25 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.neodome.net!news.uzoreto.com!peer02.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:06:25 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <b981405d-5f27-4f07-a802-6b9a9b42bc2cn@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=107.15.133.242; posting-account=sQgtagoAAAB2Cf4qBTW8cwfp7bDiKK3s
NNTP-Posting-Host: 107.15.133.242
References: <b981405d-5f27-4f07-a802-6b9a9b42bc2cn@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <04e862a7-3c1a-465b-9359-1fc918e4af61n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will
China accept that scenario?
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
Injection-Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 20:06:25 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
X-Received-Bytes: 11386
 by: ltlee1 - Sun, 26 Feb 2023 20:06 UTC

On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:24:17 AM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 乌克兰危机与中国的选择
> 晨枫
> 军事撰稿人
> 古今多少事,都付笑谈中昨天 08:02
> 乌克兰危机对中国是前所未有的挑战,也是前所未有的机会。中国是举足轻重的大国,但像现在这样掌握事关世界大局的胜负手,对中国还是头一次。
> 在危机爆发的时候,中国顶住美欧的巨大压力,坚持中立和与俄罗斯的正常贸易。必须说,中国的榜样成为代表世界上85%人口的国家的挡箭牌。
> 乌克兰危机是两边三方的战争,俄罗斯和乌克兰是交战的双方,美国是决定乌克兰能否打下去的第三方。美国不仅为乌克兰提供决定性的经济援助,更是乌克兰军事装备和物资的主要来源。中国并不决定俄罗斯是否能打下去,中国与俄罗斯保持正常经贸联系,但中国没有为俄罗斯提供援助,不管是经济的,还是军事的。
> 俄罗斯不需要中国的经济援助。然而,如果中国对俄罗斯提供军事援助,乌克兰几乎没有避免战败的希望。不管是C4ISR,精确制导弹药,还是最简单的152毫米炮弹和122毫米火箭弹,中国出手,就是泰山压顶。这是美国式技术和俄罗斯式数量的碾压级组合,美国和北约下场或许能接招,但那就要准备一起接俄罗斯的核大棒了。
> 通过乌克兰危机,美国和北约对俄罗斯的常规军力已经不放在眼里了,但对俄罗斯的核大棒还是很忌讳。核战争是常规军事力量差距的有力均衡器。中国外交部在乌克兰危机一周年之际发表《关于政治解决乌克兰危机的中国立场》。好玩的是,西方首先注意到的中国反对使用和威胁使用核武器的立场,核武器用不得,核战争打不得。这不是中国第一次表达这样的立场,但在西方的解读里,这成为中国对乌克兰危机立场的第一条,而实际上这是中国立场里的第8条,只能说明西方对俄罗斯的核大棒是真忌讳。
> 美国和俄罗斯都想把乌克兰危机往有限战争的方向引导,但有限战争是要有信心、有能力把战争无限化才做得到的,为有限而有限是注定要失败的。但有俄罗斯核大棒在,美国就不敢使得战争无限化;有美国军援在,俄罗斯也没法使得战争有限化。乌克兰危机正在走向“无限的有限战争”:在烈度上有限,在时间上无限。
> 乌克兰危机长期化已成定局,唯一的问题是多长期。
> 西方已经走上逐步升级的死路,走不出来了。为了争取战场主动,西方只有不断加码,提高军援的层次和力度,现在突破了“不提供坦克”的门槛,进一步突破“不提供战斗机”的门槛只是时间问题,因为西方对乌克兰的军援已经到了不升级就不能使得战局对乌克兰有利的方向。西方还在一心想打赢,而且也确实需要尽快打赢。
> 俄罗斯方面针锋相对,宣称军援武器射程越远,俄军打击范围越远。可以想象,西方战斗机和ATACMS导弹到达后,利沃夫、敖德萨这些地方也都不能免受打击了,而且不只是零星打击。
> 乌克兰危机有限升级的前景就在眼前,但无限升级还是不大可能,俄罗斯和美欧都不会为乌克兰搭上自己的身家性命。
> 在这种情况下,中国立场尤其关键。中国也在乌克兰危机一周年之际,出台了中国的立场文件。
> 必须说,没有多少新意,内容基本上危机初期中国已经表明了。美国、北约和欧盟都指责中国缺乏诚意,只要不跟着他们制裁俄罗斯、迫使俄罗斯无条件投降,都是缺乏诚意,这不出意外。
> 中国的立场其实诚意满满:首先就地停火,然后政治解决。这不是偏向俄罗斯立场,而是最现实的路径。如果连就地停火也做不到,肯定谈不上政治解决;如果不政治解决,就只有军事解决;如果军事解决,无限升级是唯一途径;如果无限升级不可行,那就只有无限期冲突;如果无限期冲突损害所有人的利益,那还是只有回到首先就地停火。
> ...
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=942142

=================================================
美打台灣牌 陸打俄國牌

美國眾議院「中國事務特別委員會」主席蓋拉格上周末密訪台灣4天,他接受媒體專訪時表示,希望今年夏天到台灣舉行台海安全相關的聽證會,其成果將有助眾議院議長麥卡錫和民主黨非裔領袖傑福瑞斯規畫訪台行,若成行,可能在明年初台灣總統大選之後。其實,這可視為美國再打台灣牌來進一步刺激北京。

日前在慕尼黑安全會議上,中共外事辦主任王毅與美國國務卿布林肯交鋒,美方強勢警告中方不得賣致命性武器給俄羅斯,但王毅在台灣問題上一樣堅持立場,堅拒外國干涉內政,雙方各不相讓。這已形成美國打台灣牌,大陸打俄國牌的明顯格局。如今,雙方都且戰且走,互別苗頭。中方還有意提出俄烏戰爭的和平計畫,讓西方國家有所期待,如此也可增加中方的談判籌碼。

在俄烏戰事方面,美國採取的政策是小火煎熬,而不敢大舉進攻,深怕把普丁逼到牆角而使用核武。尤其歐洲國家更加擔心核爆威力的影響。但如何收拾殘局,目前只有大陸可以做出貢獻。除中俄關係友好之外,烏克蘭也對北京多所期待。兩周前,莫斯科先公布,中國大陸國家主席習近平將在春天到訪俄羅斯,但北京並未答腔。再者,若與烏克蘭政府先前抨擊西方國家態度消極的反應相比,基輔從未對北京惡言相向。這就是北京要看美方對台政策的進退而隨時因應。

如今蓋拉格等人的對台作為,明顯是在美中台的三邊對峙上火上澆油。蓋拉格為何必須秘密訪台?有何不可告人之事?美國國會聽證會為何要來台舉辦?而稱麥卡錫明年才訪台是否為障眼法?這些都攸關國家安全,蔡政府必須提出明確的立場,否則兩岸關係惡化又不知將伊於胡底!

美國會議員來台舉辦聽證會有損我國主權,北京也必然不會坐視,蔡政府不能任由美方擺布,否則,以當前兩岸的緊張情勢,加上美中敵意正不斷升高之際,台海擦槍走火的機率恐將快速上升。

如果麥卡錫延到明年台灣總統大選後再訪台,今年兩岸關係或許可避免劇變,但明年就得視大選結果才能判斷影響程度。若是賴清德當選總統,北京絕不會輕放美國再打台灣牌;若國民黨拿回政權,有機會透過兩岸事先的溝通取得諒解,化解可能的危機。屆時俄烏戰事的演變也會是一個重要變數。
...
=================================================
https://www.chinatimes.com/newspapers/20230225000387-260109?chdtv

Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will China accept that scenario?

<4453048c-fab6-4a35-99a4-d49452c4cdddn@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=12066&group=soc.culture.china#12066

  copy link   Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:55eb:0:b0:56e:b401:ee3f with SMTP id bu11-20020ad455eb000000b0056eb401ee3fmr4735775qvb.7.1677507382043;
Mon, 27 Feb 2023 06:16:22 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:aca:1212:0:b0:384:3129:f59e with SMTP id
18-20020aca1212000000b003843129f59emr1112006ois.4.1677507381617; Mon, 27 Feb
2023 06:16:21 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.neodome.net!news.uzoreto.com!peer03.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 06:16:21 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <b981405d-5f27-4f07-a802-6b9a9b42bc2cn@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=107.15.133.242; posting-account=sQgtagoAAAB2Cf4qBTW8cwfp7bDiKK3s
NNTP-Posting-Host: 107.15.133.242
References: <b981405d-5f27-4f07-a802-6b9a9b42bc2cn@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <4453048c-fab6-4a35-99a4-d49452c4cdddn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will
China accept that scenario?
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
Injection-Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 14:16:22 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
X-Received-Bytes: 9927
 by: ltlee1 - Mon, 27 Feb 2023 14:16 UTC

On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:24:17 AM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 乌克兰危机与中国的选择
> 晨枫
> 军事撰稿人
> 古今多少事,都付笑谈中昨天 08:02
> 乌克兰危机对中国是前所未有的挑战,也是前所未有的机会。中国是举足轻重的大国,但像现在这样掌握事关世界大局的胜负手,对中国还是头一次。
> 在危机爆发的时候,中国顶住美欧的巨大压力,坚持中立和与俄罗斯的正常贸易。必须说,中国的榜样成为代表世界上85%人口的国家的挡箭牌。
> 乌克兰危机是两边三方的战争,俄罗斯和乌克兰是交战的双方,美国是决定乌克兰能否打下去的第三方。美国不仅为乌克兰提供决定性的经济援助,更是乌克兰军事装备和物资的主要来源。中国并不决定俄罗斯是否能打下去,中国与俄罗斯保持正常经贸联系,但中国没有为俄罗斯提供援助,不管是经济的,还是军事的。
> 俄罗斯不需要中国的经济援助。然而,如果中国对俄罗斯提供军事援助,乌克兰几乎没有避免战败的希望。不管是C4ISR,精确制导弹药,还是最简单的152毫米炮弹和122毫米火箭弹,中国出手,就是泰山压顶。这是美国式技术和俄罗斯式数量的碾压级组合,美国和北约下场或许能接招,但那就要准备一起接俄罗斯的核大棒了。
> 通过乌克兰危机,美国和北约对俄罗斯的常规军力已经不放在眼里了,但对俄罗斯的核大棒还是很忌讳。核战争是常规军事力量差距的有力均衡器。中国外交部在乌克兰危机一周年之际发表《关于政治解决乌克兰危机的中国立场》。好玩的是,西方首先注意到的中国反对使用和威胁使用核武器的立场,核武器用不得,核战争打不得。这不是中国第一次表达这样的立场,但在西方的解读里,这成为中国对乌克兰危机立场的第一条,而实际上这是中国立场里的第8条,只能说明西方对俄罗斯的核大棒是真忌讳。
> 美国和俄罗斯都想把乌克兰危机往有限战争的方向引导,但有限战争是要有信心、有能力把战争无限化才做得到的,为有限而有限是注定要失败的。但有俄罗斯核大棒在,美国就不敢使得战争无限化;有美国军援在,俄罗斯也没法使得战争有限化。乌克兰危机正在走向“无限的有限战争”:在烈度上有限,在时间上无限。
> 乌克兰危机长期化已成定局,唯一的问题是多长期。
> 西方已经走上逐步升级的死路,走不出来了。为了争取战场主动,西方只有不断加码,提高军援的层次和力度,现在突破了“不提供坦克”的门槛,进一步突破“不提供战斗机”的门槛只是时间问题,因为西方对乌克兰的军援已经到了不升级就不能使得战局对乌克兰有利的方向。西方还在一心想打赢,而且也确实需要尽快打赢。
> 俄罗斯方面针锋相对,宣称军援武器射程越远,俄军打击范围越远。可以想象,西方战斗机和ATACMS导弹到达后,利沃夫、敖德萨这些地方也都不能免受打击了,而且不只是零星打击。
> 乌克兰危机有限升级的前景就在眼前,但无限升级还是不大可能,俄罗斯和美欧都不会为乌克兰搭上自己的身家性命。
> 在这种情况下,中国立场尤其关键。中国也在乌克兰危机一周年之际,出台了中国的立场文件。
> 必须说,没有多少新意,内容基本上危机初期中国已经表明了。美国、北约和欧盟都指责中国缺乏诚意,只要不跟着他们制裁俄罗斯、迫使俄罗斯无条件投降,都是缺乏诚意,这不出意外。
> 中国的立场其实诚意满满:首先就地停火,然后政治解决。这不是偏向俄罗斯立场,而是最现实的路径。如果连就地停火也做不到,肯定谈不上政治解决;如果不政治解决,就只有军事解决;如果军事解决,无限升级是唯一途径;如果无限升级不可行,那就只有无限期冲突;如果无限期冲突损害所有人的利益,那还是只有回到首先就地停火。
> ...
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=942142

"根据美国国防部数据,乌克兰战争开始以来,美国军援累计达到320亿美元。2021年乌克兰国防开支总额折合才59亿美元,这一打仗,自己的59亿不用掏了,还天上掉下来4.4倍的金元宝,只可惜这金元宝不用于乌克兰的民生,都用于与俄罗斯互相捅刀子。
...
也就是说,在2022年,美国对乌克兰的军援在320亿美元水平;在2023年,美国军援可能不得不增加两三倍甚至更多,才有可能离结束战争的目标近一点。逐步升级从来不是线性,永远是加速的。越战美军在1964年还没有地面作战部队(小股特种部队不算),1965年3月第一批海军陆战队3500人进入战场,到1965年底已经提升到18;4万人,1966年8月提升到42.9万人,1967年则达47万人,1969年达到顶峰,54.9万人。美国对乌克兰军援最终会达到什么水平,持续多久,不仅取决于战场需要,还取决于美国财政负担,更取决于美国对于对抗中国的需要的评估。但还要继续激增一段,才可能降下来。

高度预期2023年美国对乌克兰的军援达到1000亿美元的水平。加上经援,算2000亿美元吧。不是说美国真的关心乌克兰人民的死活,而是乌克兰人民某种形式的“福祉”是稳定乌军士气的必须,妻子有工作、可以赚钱养家,孩子有学可上、不至于饿肚子,老小有钱充话费、可以和前线的家人通个话,这对前线官兵官兵的士气很重要。

就看两党顶牛中,对乌克兰的援助款怎么办吧。这可是从天而降的千亿级额外开支。"

https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=942847

Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will China accept that scenario?

<237a32aa-8104-4c70-a349-1d2b6b8797b7n@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=12085&group=soc.culture.china#12085

  copy link   Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1107:b0:742:7398:b1da with SMTP id o7-20020a05620a110700b007427398b1damr920879qkk.11.1677614964720;
Tue, 28 Feb 2023 12:09:24 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9563:b0:172:899b:9c93 with SMTP id
v35-20020a056870956300b00172899b9c93mr1128129oal.10.1677614964297; Tue, 28
Feb 2023 12:09:24 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2023 12:09:24 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <ddee006b-0d11-4b0a-9684-d1b9e74a4a12n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=107.15.133.242; posting-account=sQgtagoAAAB2Cf4qBTW8cwfp7bDiKK3s
NNTP-Posting-Host: 107.15.133.242
References: <b981405d-5f27-4f07-a802-6b9a9b42bc2cn@googlegroups.com> <ddee006b-0d11-4b0a-9684-d1b9e74a4a12n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <237a32aa-8104-4c70-a349-1d2b6b8797b7n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: US wants to defeat Russia and China in two limited wars. Will
China accept that scenario?
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
Injection-Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2023 20:09:24 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
X-Received-Bytes: 18294
 by: ltlee1 - Tue, 28 Feb 2023 20:09 UTC

On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 1:20:11 AM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:24:17 AM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 乌克兰危机与中国的选择
> > 晨枫
> > 军事撰稿人
> > 古今多少事,都付笑谈中昨天 08:02
> > 乌克兰危机对中国是前所未有的挑战,也是前所未有的机会。中国是举足轻重的大国,但像现在这样掌握事关世界大局的胜负手,对中国还是头一次。
> > 在危机爆发的时候,中国顶住美欧的巨大压力,坚持中立和与俄罗斯的正常贸易。必须说,中国的榜样成为代表世界上85%人口的国家的挡箭牌。
> > 乌克兰危机是两边三方的战争,俄罗斯和乌克兰是交战的双方,美国是决定乌克兰能否打下去的第三方。美国不仅为乌克兰提供决定性的经济援助,更是乌克兰军事装备和物资的主要来源。中国并不决定俄罗斯是否能打下去,中国与俄罗斯保持正常经贸联系,但中国没有为俄罗斯提供援助,不管是经济的,还是军事的。
> > 俄罗斯不需要中国的经济援助。然而,如果中国对俄罗斯提供军事援助,乌克兰几乎没有避免战败的希望。不管是C4ISR,精确制导弹药,还是最简单的152毫米炮弹和122毫米火箭弹,中国出手,就是泰山压顶。这是美国式技术和俄罗斯式数量的碾压级组合,美国和北约下场或许能接招,但那就要准备一起接俄罗斯的核大棒了。
> > 通过乌克兰危机,美国和北约对俄罗斯的常规军力已经不放在眼里了,但对俄罗斯的核大棒还是很忌讳。核战争是常规军事力量差距的有力均衡器。中国外交部在乌克兰危机一周年之际发表《关于政治解决乌克兰危机的中国立场》。好玩的是,西方首先注意到的中国反对使用和威胁使用核武器的立场,核武器用不得,核战争打不得。这不是中国第一次表达这样的立场,但在西方的解读里,这成为中国对乌克兰危机立场的第一条,而实际上这是中国立场里的第8条,只能说明西方对俄罗斯的核大棒是真忌讳。
> > 美国和俄罗斯都想把乌克兰危机往有限战争的方向引导,但有限战争是要有信心、有能力把战争无限化才做得到的,为有限而有限是注定要失败的。但有俄罗斯核大棒在,美国就不敢使得战争无限化;有美国军援在,俄罗斯也没法使得战争有限化。乌克兰危机正在走向“无限的有限战争”:在烈度上有限,在时间上无限。
> > 乌克兰危机长期化已成定局,唯一的问题是多长期。
> > 西方已经走上逐步升级的死路,走不出来了。为了争取战场主动,西方只有不断加码,提高军援的层次和力度,现在突破了“不提供坦克”的门槛,进一步突破“不提供战斗机”的门槛只是时间问题,因为西方对乌克兰的军援已经到了不升级就不能使得战局对乌克兰有利的方向。西方还在一心想打赢,而且也确实需要尽快打赢。
> > 俄罗斯方面针锋相对,宣称军援武器射程越远,俄军打击范围越远。可以想象,西方战斗机和ATACMS导弹到达后,利沃夫、敖德萨这些地方也都不能免受打击了,而且不只是零星打击。
> > 乌克兰危机有限升级的前景就在眼前,但无限升级还是不大可能,俄罗斯和美欧都不会为乌克兰搭上自己的身家性命。
> > 在这种情况下,中国立场尤其关键。中国也在乌克兰危机一周年之际,出台了中国的立场文件。
> > 必须说,没有多少新意,内容基本上危机初期中国已经表明了。美国、北约和欧盟都指责中国缺乏诚意,只要不跟着他们制裁俄罗斯、迫使俄罗斯无条件投降,都是缺乏诚意,这不出意外。
> > 中国的立场其实诚意满满:首先就地停火,然后政治解决。这不是偏向俄罗斯立场,而是最现实的路径。如果连就地停火也做不到,肯定谈不上政治解决;如果不政治解决,就只有军事解决;如果军事解决,无限升级是唯一途径;如果无限升级不可行,那就只有无限期冲突;如果无限期冲突损害所有人的利益,那还是只有回到首先就地停火。
> > ...
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=942142
> "The Ukrainian crisis is both an unprecedented challenge and an unprecedented opportunity for China. China is a world power of great importance, but it is the first time that China could determine who win and who lose in a world changing event.
>
> When the crisis broke out, China withstood the enormous pressure from the US and Europe. It insisted on neutrality and normal trade with Russia. It must be said that China's example has provided the shield for other countries representing 85% of the world's population.
>
> The Ukrainian crisis is a war between two sides with three parties. Russia and Ukraine are the two sides at war, and the United States is the third party that decides whether Ukraine can survive. The United States not only provides decisive economic assistance to Ukraine, but also is the main source of Ukrainian military equipment and supplies. China does not decide whether Russia can continue to fight. It maintains normal economic and trade relations with Russia, but it does not provide Russia with assistance, economically or militarily.
>
> Russia does not need Chinese economic aid. However, Ukraine has little hope of avoiding defeat if China provides military aid to Russia. Whether it is C4ISR, precision-guided munitions, or the simplest 152mm artillery shells and 122mm rockets. Chinese weapons and supplies would be overwhelming. This is a crushing combination of American-style technology and Russian-style numbers. The United States and NATO may be able to take the hit, but then they must be prepared for Russia's nuclear big stick.
>
> Through the Ukrainian crisis, the United States and NATO can look down on Russia's conventional military power, but they are still very worry about Russia's nuclear stick. Nuclear war is a powerful equalizer of conventional military power gaps. On the first anniversary of the Ukrainian crisis, the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs published "China's Position on the Political Solution to the Ukrainian Crisis." Interestingly, China's stance against the use and threat of use of nuclear weapons was immediately noticed by the West. Nuclear weapons cannot be used and nuclear war cannot be fought. This is not the first time that China has expressed such a position, but in the interpretation of the West, this has become the first article of China's position on the Ukraine crisis, but in fact this is the eighth article of China's position. This only shows the West's attitude towards Russia's nuclear big stick.
>
> Both the United States and Russia want to guide the Ukrainian crisis in the direction of limited war, but limited war can only be achieved with confidence and ability to fight an unlimited war. Limited war for limited war's sake is doomed to failure. Facing Russian nuclear big stick, the United States does not dare to unlimit the war. With US military aid, Russia would not be able to limit the war. The Ukrainian crisis is moving towards an "unlimited limited war": limited in intensity but unlimited in time.
>
> The protracted Ukraine crisis is a foregone conclusion, the only question is how long.
>
> The West has embarked on a dead ended road of gradual escalation and cannot get itself out. In order to maintain battlefield, the West must increase its chips by upgrading the level and intensity of military aid. Now it has crossed the threshold of "no tanks", crossing the threshold of "no fighter jets" is just a matter of time. West's military aid to Ukraine has already reached a stage: It is impossible to make the war situation favorable to Ukraine without escalation. The West is still bent on winning, and it really needs to win as soon as possible.
>
> The Russian side is tit-for-tat, declaring that the farther the range of military aid weapons is, the farther the Russian army will strike. It is conceivable that after the arrival of Western fighter jets and ATACMS missiles, places such as Lviv and Odessa will not be immune to attacks, and not just sporadic attacks.
>
> The prospect of a limited escalation of the Ukrainian crisis is in sight, but an unlimited escalation is still unlikely. Neither Russia nor the United States and Europe will risk their lives for Ukraine.
>
> In this context, China's position is particularly critical. China also issued its position paper on the first anniversary of the Ukraine crisis.
>
> It must be said that there are not many new ideas, and the content has basically been expressed by China in the early stage of the crisis. The United States, NATO, and the European Union all accuse China of lack of sincerity. As long as they do not follow them to sanction Russia and force Russia to surrender unconditionally, it is lack of sincerity. Not surprising.
>
> China's position is actually full of sincerity: first cease fire on the spot, and then resolve it politically. This is not a Russian position, but the most realistic path. If a on the spot cease fire cannot be achieved, there will be no political solution; if there is no political solution, only military solution is available. If there is only military solution, unlimited escalation is one way. If unlimited escalation is not feasible, then there is only an indefinite conflict. If an indefinite conflict harms the interests of all, the only option is to go back to on the spot cease fire as the first step.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Click here to read the complete article

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.81
clearnet tor