Man petless arcs are as difficult as looking at the news and being optimistic.

I've ascended 2 out of 40. Man that's terrible.

I need to go back to something easier like priest or wizard.

Anyone else done petless arcs?

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 23:45:53 -0800 (PST), Chris Bowers wrote:

> Man petless arcs are as difficult as looking at the news and being optimistic.
[...]
> Anyone else done petless arcs?

I use pets only for B/U-C identification until the first altar is found
and sometimes for early "shopping". In any case, the pet usually is
left (behind a keyed niche door) on first or second level and only
approached for the above two reasons.

With Arc, you'd want to go for a quick equipment rally. A first dagger
(at least) can usually be obtained at first level. Afterwards, I tend
to speed-run down to about level 4 or even 6 without exploring much of
the levels. (But taking note of any shop/vault noises and the entry to
the mines.) Now back to level 2 and completing exploration of any level
up to the one with minetown entry. Take a stance near the upstairs on
the first minetown-level and kill the first few monsters that come for
you. Take the loot back to the main dungeon and B/U-C-identify it. If
possible, sell surplus items.

Afterwards, you should have some light(!) armor and a couple of throwing
weapons. I prefer daggers to darts to advance only the skill-slot that
is of more use later on in the game. (And at this point, dagger is most
likely still the currently wielded weapon; swappable to the whip or the
pickaxe, if necessary.) But until enough daggers have been found, any
throwable weapon is fine.

Arc relies on speed, stealth and ranged (throwing) kills early on. So
always keep a cleared retreat path. Don't get burdened (or worse) early
in the game, whenever there's a chance you need to fight or run. Enhance
strength by playing a bit with boulders laying around and get as early
poison resistance as possible by using the tinning kit. Dig up vaults
and gems and make use of this loot if you find something useful in shops.

Get artifact weapon via sacrificing or (if lawful) Excalibur via dipping,
once you came across a long sword and are advanced enough to deal with
the unhealthy consequences, that may come from dipping. Have a means
to teleport ready, nevertheless, when dipping.

If the first artifact weapon from sacrificing is fairly decent, don't
press on. It may be better to reserve an early wish for Grayswandir.
(And you would not want too many artifacts be around, when it comes to
this.) Another thing worth doing as lawful or Neutral Arc is getting
crowned relatively early, if no longsword was obtained by sacrificing,
already. (To get the skill-slot for longsword unlocked and maybe some
missing resistances, as well.) If you do this, be aware of the enhanced
prayer timeout, though.

Buy protection as soon as possible. (But with Arc I don't recommend a
protection-run to minetown too early.)

After dagger has advanced to basics, train two-weapon. But /only/ on
weak monsters in places, where you can't be overrun. Spellcasting (if
at all) should concentrate on divination with Arc.

Everything else depends on the course of the game.

BeAr
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

On 30.01.2022 14:43, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 23:45:53 -0800 (PST), Chris Bowers wrote:
>
>> Man petless arcs are as difficult as looking at the news and being optimistic.
> [...]
>> Anyone else done petless arcs?
>
> I use pets only for B/U-C identification until the first altar is found
> and sometimes for early "shopping". In any case, the pet usually is
> left (behind a keyed niche door) on first or second level and only
> approached for the above two reasons.
>
> With Arc, you'd want to go for a quick equipment rally. A first dagger
> (at least) can usually be obtained at first level. Afterwards, I tend
> to speed-run down to about level 4 or even 6 without exploring much of
> the levels. (But taking note of any shop/vault noises and the entry to
> the mines.) Now back to level 2 and completing exploration of any level
> up to the one with minetown entry. Take a stance near the upstairs on
> the first minetown-level and kill the first few monsters that come for
> you. Take the loot back to the main dungeon and B/U-C-identify it. If
> possible, sell surplus items.

An effective early non-artifact weapon is also the dwarvish mattock.
The pet - even if you more or less abstain from pet companionship -
may also help you obtain that weapon from a dwarf in the mines. The
pet would preferable have some level gained in case the dwarf in
question wears also good armor.

Janis

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 16:00:19 +0100, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> An effective early non-artifact weapon is also the dwarvish mattock.

You are right. Because of its weight, I usually abstain from using and
advancing picking tools, because this hampers development of skills
that come to be more of use, later on. But one takes, what is available.
If no better weapons are around and the next obvious tasks require it,
I do #enhance whip or pickaxe skills.

> The pet - even if you more or less abstain from pet companionship -
> may also help you obtain that weapon from a dwarf in the mines. The
> pet would preferable have some level gained

I /hate/ a pet scurrying in my way, relocating things I wish to keep
in place and having to tend to it wrt. food and health (to advance it
and keep it alive). Therefore, I *nearly* always (/not/ always) play
"near" petless. If I was concerned about conducts, I might have set the
petless option in the settings file. As it is, I just don't bother...
;-)

> in case the dwarf in question wears also good armor.

Which would be a /real/ bonus, because dwarvish mithril would be the
preferred armor before (much) later on switching to a dragon mail.

BeAr
--
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

On 30.01.2022 17:56, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
>> in case the dwarf in question wears also good armor.
>
> Which would be a /real/ bonus, because dwarvish mithril would be the
> preferred armor before (much) later on switching to a dragon mail.

Yeah, but early game it's hard to get one's hand on one.
Assuming you find a dwarf with mithril, how to get it?
(Considering weak pets, a vulnerable character, role/race
penalties, etc.) Unless penalties don't forbid, the Arcs'
speed is certainly useful (with a hit/retreat tactics),
provided your hits will pass the dwarf's enormous AC.

Janis

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:30:39 +0100, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

[dwarvish mithril]
> Yeah, but early game it's hard to get one's hand on one.
> Assuming you find a dwarf with mithril, how to get it?
> (Considering weak pets, a vulnerable character, role/race
> penalties, etc.) Unless penalties don't forbid, the Arcs'
> speed is certainly useful (with a hit/retreat tactics),
> provided your hits will pass the dwarf's enormous AC.

Usually ranged attack (daggers, wands), /after/ all hostile monsters
in the vicinity have been dealt with.

If I don't already have somewhat decent armor, I sometimes disregard
alignment penalty, just to get my hands on the armor. It is somewhat
chancy, if the dwarf cannot be probed, beforehand, but better to take
a couple (few!) tries, than to run half-naked through the dungeons.
*Small* alignment deficiencies can be dealt with (praying, untrapping
monsters, unicorn-sacrifice).

BeAr
--
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

I am playing truly petless as a challenge, which may be too much of a challenge. The thing I was missing was the use of missile weapons, particularly daggers, which I didn't notice can be advanced to basic. Missile weapons usually annoy me (picking them up and stuff). But it seems like this is needed. Also, if not doing petless as a challenge, keeping it somewhere for cursed testing is also essential.

If you have lots of daggers in excess you can use them up on a semi-permanent elbereth square as well. I should have been doing that. Speed and elbereth work well together. Semi permanent elbereth is also at a premium. For this, wands of fire and lightning for arcs are a godsend. I have also engrave tested wands in shops (worth it) to find these wands as soon as possible.

The absolutely central, central, thing for arcs is an altar. An altar allows you to get holy water to bless books for spellcasting. An early arc can actually be a spell caster depending on stat allocation. Secondly, and most importantly getting an artifact weapon is absolutely pivotal in an arc's development. Arcs with very high int can simply read uncursed spellbooks, the risk is worth it.

The use of pickaxes and dwarven mattock also depends on stat allocation. If your str starts at 16 17 and 18 (rare for an Arc, but I have seen it happen)., then I start just with pickaxe and go for dwarven mattock. However if you're weak you at first have to rely on the bullwhip, at least until level 3.

Scroll of enchant weapon is obviously super important for Archaeologist. Even just enchanting the pickaxe by +1 makes it much better than the bullwhip in the to-hit/damage differential. I did in one game get bullwhip to expert, and get to AC -4, but I was stuck. There were some monsters you simply couldn't kill with just the bullwhip no matter how many turns you take hitting it. (Crocodile and Centaur). Scrolls of enchant weapon can be price ID'd in a general store, and we are back to the importance of holy water and an altar. High priced water in shops is also an option. A pickaxe +3 makes you a formidable fighter, and can be advanced to expert, or advanced until you sacrifice for an artifact weapon. A dwarven mattock at +3 (or higher if you can get more scrolls of enchant weapon) is enough all the way to the castle if you never encounter a co-aligned altar.

Archaeologists in the early game are bad at most everything. But they almost always have decent constitution. Level 1 arc can't go in the mines. So I work till level 3 of 4 in the regular dungeon, but avoid the oracle level (which can have beefy monsters). After this I go to the gnomish mines. The second part also depends if you have a light source or not, and what armor you found in the main dungeon in the course of getting to level 4. If you have no light source, what I do is go down to the first level and clear out all the gnomes in the immediate area. Then I dig down one level with pickaxe and do the same thing where I land, clear out the surrounding gnomes. If there's a dwarf you have to run. But with bullwhip and level 4 you can beat the gnomes.

At minetown you get a light source and go back up, exploiting everything minetown has to offer, especially wands, spellbooks, or price id'd scrolls and get tools while you are at it. If you're lucky you may have found a gem in the mines you can use your touchstone on and get a lot of money. There will be an altar there to test things as well.

Proceeding up from minetown involves a lot of running away back to town and backtracking. From the stuff you got in minetown you should be able to kill dwarves now, and with that get armor, proceeding back to minetown to test it. For iron shoes and hooded cloak, I don't test them as a cursed one is so rare. Some armor, if you find something really good like mithril, I don't test either. Even a cursed -1 mithil is so good, I just do it. Hooded cloak provides MC 1 at least. I don't explore the whole gnomish mines going upward, just trying to get to the upstairs. The less time you spend there, the better, and at level 4 and 5 stronger things will start to appear once you have killed the gnomes, which can spell disaster.

I go then up to sokoban, and do the first two/three levels. Retreating and elberething as need be. If there's something nasty I take the food and leave. You now have food, so if minetown is co-aligned or you found an altar on the way, you can now get an artifact weapon. You also have scrolls of earth for emergencies and hopefully you've found an attack wand/elbereth wand in sokoban. If you get an artifact weapon that's simply a longsword, or some other weapon (even if it stinks), you can advance it to basic. You now have a decent weapon doing 1d8/1d12. From that, you can camp at the altar until you get a weapon that has +1d5 damage vs all targets.

For arcs without a co-aligned altar in minetown and no altar to the oracle, you are in a terrible situation. Here are some outs:

1. Continue in regular dungeon until you find an altar. You may be turned back by ferocious monsters at some point.
2. Wand of polymorph if you find it to polymorph and price id scrolls to get scroll of enchant weapon.
3. Found scrolls of enchant weapon (pride id in general store in minetown).
4. Find holy water without an altar, duplicate and bless spellbooks.
5. Early game wish from throne, fountain, or magic lamp. Magicbane is a good option because it has semipermanent elbereth, arcs can get basic in dagger already, its special gives you opportunity to run away with speed.

Other option is obviously greswandir, which obviously can be advanced to expert. Another option for damage is mjollnir, even though you won't get basic in it and the skill won't be unlocked. It's main effect is 1+1d4+1d24 damage, which, combined with the arc's speed means an average 27 damage in the time it takes the other monster to make a single attack. Quite an upgrade from a +2 whip.

Lawful arcs can dip a longsword if they find one. (I usually don't find one by sokobon unfortunately, so it's nor really a viable strategy in the early game).

Displacement or a source of invisibility (wand/ring) plus elbereth plus speed is quite a combination for getting out of fights. GOP as an item is as good as an artifact weapon. Combined with a good artifact weapon you're nearly unstoppable.

Basically if Arc doesn't get 1. source of invisibility/displacement 2. Source of good elbereth 3. altar/artifact weapon 4. good attack spell by a certain time, or 5. Scrolls of enchant weapon, he's pretty much doomed. Somehow he has to get over the damage "hump" differential between himself and ever increasing difficulty of monsters.

For pet using arcs, you can artificially keep your level low. But for petless arcs the game is pretty much impossible if you don't get one of the things above.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 15:15:47 -0800 (PST), Chris Bowers wrote:

> Basically if Arc doesn't get
> 1. source of invisibility/displacement

Because of stealth & speed I usually don't go invisible until I have
permanent SeeInv with Arc.

> 2. Source of good elbereth

With all roles I do /not/ use Elbereth. (Extreme rare exceptions aside.)

> 3. altar/artifact weapon

That's the second step and not really necessary until about Sokoban entry
and Minetown. IMHO, the first step is to get decent light armor and a small
stack of ranged weapon (usually daggers). First level mines usually provides
this, if the first ~4 floors of the main dungeon don't.

> 4. good attack spell

I regard Arc as (initially) weak but sneaky fighter class, comparable
to the former Ninja class. (Just without the starting stack of shuriken.)
Therefore, I do not bother with attack spells, at all, with Arc.

> 5. Scrolls of enchant weapon

I usually spare those for the artifact weapon I settle for as primary
weapon and for the major secondary weapon used in two-weaponing. Daggers
get enchanted only when a sufficiently large stack of /elven/ daggers is
in my inventory. They get fireproofed and receive high enchantment.

[Arc without afore mentioned equipment]
> he's pretty much doomed.

Hm. I think, you engage too much in hand-to-hand combat with Arc. Speed
and distance are key. And training strength with boulders or boosting
it with certain food or potions. And poison resistance as early as
possible, to avoid the most common early insta-death.

BeAr
--
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

I think your strategies are good. We should combine our strategies.

No elbereth is another challenge condition. I don't use elbereth for any classes except tourist, healer and arc. Everyone else in my opinion, is so strong they don't need it.

One last thing, the spell thing depends on stat allocation. If you have 16 Wis and Int you can just read spellbooks, it's worth it. An arc with magic missile or force bolt early game is formidable, and like you said they're usually too weak to wear heavy armor anyway. But that is very game dependent you might not encounter any kind of spellbooks at all...

And breaking the statues around the oracle gives an alignment penalty, though not a big one.

But you're right, I do too much combat.