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interests / rec.games.backgammon / 4pt vs 7pt 8

SubjectAuthor
* 4pt vs 7pt 8Timothy Chow
+* Re: 4pt vs 7pt 8ah....Clem
|+- Re: 4pt vs 7pt 8Renan Moritz
|`- Re: 4pt vs 7pt 8ah....Clem
`- Rollout: 4pt vs 7pt 8Timothy Chow

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4pt vs 7pt 8

<u8ec3j$24tlo$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: 4pt vs 7pt 8
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2023 09:18:42 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Sun, 9 Jul 2023 13:18 UTC

Ah...clem said that he wanted to see more "4pt vs 7pt" problems,
so this week I'll post some more.

XGID=---b-BE-D---cC---c-cac-A--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O O O X |
| X O | | O O |
| X O | | O O |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| X | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X X O |
| O X | | X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 134 O: 142 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 11

---
Tim Chow

Re: 4pt vs 7pt 8

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: 4pt vs 7pt 8
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2023 10:18:28 -0400
Organization: The Future Fair
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 by: ah....Clem - Sun, 9 Jul 2023 14:18 UTC

On 7/9/2023 9:18 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> Ah...clem said that he wanted to see more "4pt vs 7pt" problems,
> so this week I'll post some more.
>
> XGID=---b-BE-D---cC---c-cac-A--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
>  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>  | X           O    |   | O  O  O     X    |
>  | X           O    |   | O     O          |
>  | X           O    |   | O     O          |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |BAR|                  |
>  |                  |   | X                |
>  |             X    |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X  X     O       |
>  | O           X    |   | X  X     O       |
>  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count  X: 134  O: 142 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 11

The bar point does a better job of blocking but making the four leaves
spares on the 8 & 6 vs a big stack on the six with the other points
stripped. X may pick up the blot on the 20 and making "the rack" will be
more advantageous if he does.

So, I make the four here.
--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Re: 4pt vs 7pt 8

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Subject: Re: 4pt vs 7pt 8
From: renan.m....@gmail.com (Renan Moritz)
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 by: Renan Moritz - Sun, 9 Jul 2023 16:56 UTC

On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 11:18:29 AM UTC-3, ah....Clem wrote:
> On 7/9/2023 9:18 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > Ah...clem said that he wanted to see more "4pt vs 7pt" problems,
> > so this week I'll post some more.
> >
> > XGID=---b-BE-D---cC---c-cac-A--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:0:10
> >
> > Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> > +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> > | X O | | O O O X |
> > | X O | | O O |
> > | X O | | O O |
> > | | | |
> > | | | |
> > | |BAR| |
> > | | | X |
> > | X | | X |
> > | O X | | X |
> > | O X | | X X O |
> > | O X | | X X O |
> > +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> > Pip count X: 134 O: 142 X-O: 0-0
> > Cube: 1
> > X to play 11
> The bar point does a better job of blocking but making the four leaves
> spares on the 8 & 6 vs a big stack on the six with the other points
> stripped. X may pick up the blot on the 20 and making "the rack" will be
> more advantageous if he does.
>
> So, I make the four here.
> --
> Ah....Clem
> The future is fun, the future is fair.

These problems are not much of a problem for me because as a rule I make the 4th point and that is it
In this case, however, the ugly stack on the 8th point and the usefulness of advancing the last checker makes me opt for the bar Thus:
23/22, 8/7(2), 6/5
Regards,

Re: 4pt vs 7pt 8

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: 4pt vs 7pt 8
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 10:58:38 -0400
Organization: The Future Fair
Lines: 46
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 by: ah....Clem - Mon, 10 Jul 2023 14:58 UTC

On 7/9/2023 10:18 AM, ah....Clem wrote:
> On 7/9/2023 9:18 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
>> Ah...clem said that he wanted to see more "4pt vs 7pt" problems,
>> so this week I'll post some more.
>>
>> XGID=---b-BE-D---cC---c-cac-A--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:0:10
>>
>> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
>>   +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>>   | X           O    |   | O  O  O     X    |
>>   | X           O    |   | O     O          |
>>   | X           O    |   | O     O          |
>>   |                  |   |                  |
>>   |                  |   |                  |
>>   |                  |BAR|                  |
>>   |                  |   | X                |
>>   |             X    |   | X                |
>>   | O           X    |   | X                |
>>   | O           X    |   | X  X     O       |
>>   | O           X    |   | X  X     O       |
>>   +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
>> Pip count  X: 134  O: 142 X-O: 0-0
>> Cube: 1
>> X to play 11
>
>
> The bar point does a better job of blocking but making the four leaves
> spares on the 8 & 6 vs a big stack on the six with the other points
> stripped. X may pick up the blot on the 20 and making "the rack" will be
> more advantageous if he does.
>
> So, I make the four here.

Oops. After making the bar point X still has two aces to play. The
solid four prime looks better than the broken one, and X can use the
other two aces to unstack the six point and move the runner up to where
it can see daylight.

So, I'll make the bar point with 23/22 8/7(2) 6/5.

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Rollout: 4pt vs 7pt 8

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Rollout: 4pt vs 7pt 8
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 09:18:33 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 92
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 by: Timothy Chow - Tue, 11 Jul 2023 13:18 UTC

XGID=---b-BE-D---cC---c-cac-A--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O O O X |
| X O | | O O |
| X O | | O O |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| X | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X X O |
| O X | | X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 134 O: 142 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 11

In my previous series, I suggested that the 4pt is better for attacking
and the bar point is better for priming. But here, neither attacking
nor priming jumps out as the superior game plan. What tips the scales
is that X certainly wants to escape his straggler, and so 23/22 is a
valuable ace.

In the variant, 23/22 is not an option, and the rollout indicates a
dead heat.

1. Rollout¹ 23/22 8/7(2) 6/5 eq:+0.325
Player: 59.23% (G:10.72% B:0.47%)
Opponent: 40.77% (G:10.18% B:0.23%)
Confidence: ±0.012 (+0.313..+0.338) - [100.0%]

2. Rollout¹ 8/7(2) 6/5(2) eq:+0.220 (-0.105)
Player: 56.31% (G:11.14% B:0.45%)
Opponent: 43.69% (G:11.06% B:0.29%)
Confidence: ±0.013 (+0.206..+0.233) - [0.0%]

3. Rollout¹ 6/4(2) eq:+0.208 (-0.117)
Player: 55.77% (G:11.11% B:0.45%)
Opponent: 44.23% (G:10.19% B:0.25%)
Confidence: ±0.014 (+0.193..+0.222) - [0.0%]

¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

-------
Variant
-------

XGID=---b-BE-D---cC---c-cacA---:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O O O X |
| X O | | O O |
| X O | | O O |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| X | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X X O |
| O X | | X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 133 O: 142 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 11

1. Rollout¹ 8/7(2) 6/5(2) eq:+0.301
Player: 58.56% (G:10.61% B:0.45%)
Opponent: 41.44% (G:10.69% B:0.27%)
Confidence: ±0.006 (+0.295..+0.307) - [60.4%]

2. Rollout¹ 6/4(2) eq:+0.300 (-0.001)
Player: 58.38% (G:10.50% B:0.43%)
Opponent: 41.62% (G:9.43% B:0.22%)
Confidence: ±0.006 (+0.294..+0.306) - [39.6%]

¹ 5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

---
Tim Chow

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