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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: Rollout: 4pt vs 7pt 14

SubjectAuthor
* 4pt vs 7pt 14Timothy Chow
+- Re: 4pt vs 7pt 14Renan Moritz
+* Re: 4pt vs 7pt 14ah....Clem
|`- Re: 4pt vs 7pt 14ah....Clem
`* Rollout: 4pt vs 7pt 14Timothy Chow
 `- Re: Rollout: 4pt vs 7pt 14Renan Moritz

1
4pt vs 7pt 14

<u8u5cq$d03a$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: 4pt vs 7pt 14
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:02:18 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Sat, 15 Jul 2023 13:02 UTC

Final problem in this series. It might look a bit like
problem #11, but pay attention to the differences!

XGID=-a-a--E-CAA-dC---c-d--b-B-:0:0:1:62:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O O X |
| X O | | O O X |
| X O | | O |
| | | O |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| O | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X X X | | X O O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 160 O: 152 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 62

---
Tim Chow

Re: 4pt vs 7pt 14

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Subject: Re: 4pt vs 7pt 14
From: renan.m....@gmail.com (Renan Moritz)
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 by: Renan Moritz - Sat, 15 Jul 2023 21:43 UTC

On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 10:02:21 AM UTC-3, Timothy Chow wrote:
> Final problem in this series. It might look a bit like
> problem #11, but pay attention to the differences!
>
> XGID=-a-a--E-CAA-dC---c-d--b-B-:0:0:1:62:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O | | O O X |
> | X O | | O O X |
> | X O | | O |
> | | | O |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | X |
> | O | | X |
> | O X | | X |
> | O X | | X |
> | O X X X | | X O O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 160 O: 152 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 62
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

Make the four!

Re: 4pt vs 7pt 14

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: 4pt vs 7pt 14
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 16:35:34 -0400
Organization: The Future Fair
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 by: ah....Clem - Sun, 16 Jul 2023 20:35 UTC

On 7/15/2023 9:02 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> Final problem in this series.  It might look a bit like
> problem #11, but pay attention to the differences!
>
> XGID=-a-a--E-CAA-dC---c-d--b-B-:0:0:1:62:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
>  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>  | X           O    |   | O        O     X |
>  | X           O    |   | O        O     X |
>  | X           O    |   | O                |
>  |                  |   | O                |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |BAR|                  |
>  |                  |   | X                |
>  | O                |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O     X  X  X    |   | X        O     O |
>  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count  X: 160  O: 152 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 62

Whack two checkers? Always worth a good look...

Making the four point exposes a direct shot at the blot on the nine,
while making the bar point only exposes an indirect shot. Race will be
almost even after this play and O has a slightly better board, so safe
play is indicated.

Two checkers back implies prime rather than attack, so I'll make the
four point. But won't be surprised if XG whacks two.

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Rollout: 4pt vs 7pt 14

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Rollout: 4pt vs 7pt 14
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 08:45:36 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:45 UTC

XGID=-a-a--E-CAA-dC---c-d--b-B-:0:0:1:62:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O O X |
| X O | | O O X |
| X O | | O |
| | | O |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| O | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X X X | | X O O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 160 O: 152 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 62

In Problem 11, we noted that making the 4pt seemed to be the natural
play at first glance, unstacking the 6pt and preparing for a fight.
However, X had escaped both back checkers and had a big stack on his
midpoint, and making the bar point was XG's choice there. But here,
there's less reason to make the bar point. Making the 4pt does leave
a direct shot, but because X has two checkers back and will have equal
board strength after the play, Magriel's criteria suggest that he can
play somewhat boldly. Making the bar point also strips the midpoint
instead of unstacking a heavy point.

1. Rollout¹ 10/4 6/4 eq:-0.075
Player: 48.33% (G:15.22% B:0.66%)
Opponent: 51.67% (G:16.43% B:1.11%)
Confidence: ±0.015 (-0.090..-0.060) - [100.0%]

2. Rollout¹ 13/7 9/7 eq:-0.156 (-0.081)
Player: 46.60% (G:13.71% B:0.66%)
Opponent: 53.40% (G:16.81% B:1.12%)
Confidence: ±0.015 (-0.170..-0.141) - [0.0%]

3. Rollout¹ 9/3* 3/1* eq:-0.238 (-0.163)
Player: 44.38% (G:14.32% B:0.42%)
Opponent: 55.62% (G:18.23% B:1.28%)
Confidence: ±0.014 (-0.252..-0.223) - [0.0%]

¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

---
Tim Chow

Re: 4pt vs 7pt 14

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: 4pt vs 7pt 14
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 11:14:02 -0400
Organization: The Future Fair
Lines: 43
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 by: ah....Clem - Mon, 17 Jul 2023 15:14 UTC

On 7/16/2023 4:35 PM, ah....Clem wrote:
> On 7/15/2023 9:02 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
>> Final problem in this series.  It might look a bit like
>> problem #11, but pay attention to the differences!
>>
>> XGID=-a-a--E-CAA-dC---c-d--b-B-:0:0:1:62:0:0:0:0:10
>>
>> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
>>   +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>>   | X           O    |   | O        O     X |
>>   | X           O    |   | O        O     X |
>>   | X           O    |   | O                |
>>   |                  |   | O                |
>>   |                  |   |                  |
>>   |                  |BAR|                  |
>>   |                  |   | X                |
>>   | O                |   | X                |
>>   | O           X    |   | X                |
>>   | O           X    |   | X                |
>>   | O     X  X  X    |   | X        O     O |
>>   +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
>> Pip count  X: 160  O: 152 X-O: 0-0
>> Cube: 1
>> X to play 62
>
> Whack two checkers?  Always worth a good look...
>
> Making the four point exposes a direct shot at the blot on the nine,
> while making the bar point only exposes an indirect shot.  Race will be
> almost even after this play and O has a slightly better board, so safe
> play is indicated.
>
> Two checkers back implies prime rather than attack, so I'll make the
> four point. But won't be surprised if XG whacks two.
>

I meant make the bar point. Haven't looked at the rollout yet. Priming
position, safe play...

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Re: Rollout: 4pt vs 7pt 14

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Subject: Re: Rollout: 4pt vs 7pt 14
From: renan.m....@gmail.com (Renan Moritz)
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 by: Renan Moritz - Mon, 17 Jul 2023 15:15 UTC

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 9:45:39 AM UTC-3, Timothy Chow wrote:
> XGID=-a-a--E-CAA-dC---c-d--b-B-:0:0:1:62:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O | | O O X |
> | X O | | O O X |
> | X O | | O |
> | | | O |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | X |
> | O | | X |
> | O X | | X |
> | O X | | X |
> | O X X X | | X O O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 160 O: 152 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 62
> In Problem 11, we noted that making the 4pt seemed to be the natural
> play at first glance, unstacking the 6pt and preparing for a fight.
> However, X had escaped both back checkers and had a big stack on his
> midpoint, and making the bar point was XG's choice there. But here,
> there's less reason to make the bar point. Making the 4pt does leave
> a direct shot, but because X has two checkers back and will have equal
> board strength after the play, Magriel's criteria suggest that he can
> play somewhat boldly. Making the bar point also strips the midpoint
> instead of unstacking a heavy point.
>
> 1. Rollout¹ 10/4 6/4 eq:-0.075
> Player: 48.33% (G:15.22% B:0.66%)
> Opponent: 51.67% (G:16.43% B:1.11%)
> Confidence: ±0.015 (-0.090..-0.060) - [100.0%]
>
> 2. Rollout¹ 13/7 9/7 eq:-0.156 (-0.081)
> Player: 46.60% (G:13.71% B:0.66%)
> Opponent: 53.40% (G:16.81% B:1.12%)
> Confidence: ±0.015 (-0.170..-0.141) - [0.0%]
>
> 3. Rollout¹ 9/3* 3/1* eq:-0.238 (-0.163)
> Player: 44.38% (G:14.32% B:0.42%)
> Opponent: 55.62% (G:18.23% B:1.28%)
> Confidence: ±0.014 (-0.252..-0.223) - [0.0%]
>
> ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> Dice Seed: 271828
> Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
>
> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

Big difference 1st x 2nd move - very interesting

1
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