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interests / rec.games.backgammon / 51 to play, unlimited play

SubjectAuthor
* 51 to play, unlimited playah....Clem
+* Re: 51 to play, unlimited playTimothy Chow
|`* Re: 51 to play, unlimited playStick Rice
| `- Re: 51 to play, unlimited playTimothy Chow
+- ROLLOUT: 51 to play, unlimited playah....Clem
`* Rollout : 51 to play, unlimited playah....Clem
 `* Re: Rollout : 51 to play, unlimited playTimothy Chow
  `- Re: Rollout : 51 to play, unlimited playStick Rice

1
51 to play, unlimited play

<u96vpr$1pqmh$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: 51 to play, unlimited play
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 17:22:04 -0400
Organization: The Future Fair
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 by: ah....Clem - Tue, 18 Jul 2023 21:22 UTC

XGID=--a--aE-CA--eD---b-d-Ab-A-:0:0:1:51:0:0:3:0:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O X O X |
| X O | | O O |
| X | | O |
| X | | O |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| O | | X |
| O | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X X | | X O O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 160 O: 154 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 51

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Re: 51 to play, unlimited play

<u97d0q$1rlrv$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: 51 to play, unlimited play
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 21:07:37 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Wed, 19 Jul 2023 01:07 UTC

On 7/18/2023 5:22 PM, ah....Clem wrote:
>
> XGID=--a--aE-CA--eD---b-d-Ab-A-:0:0:1:51:0:0:3:0:10
>
> X:Player 1   O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
>  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>  | X           O    |   | O     X  O     X |
>  | X           O    |   | O        O       |
>  | X                |   | O                |
>  | X                |   | O                |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |BAR|                  |
>  | O                |   | X                |
>  | O                |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O        X  X    |   | X  O        O    |
>  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count  X: 160  O: 154 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 51

We have the slightly weaker board, so that maybe suggests a safe
play, but we have no safe play. I'd just whack the blot with 6/5*
and bring down another checker from the midpoint with 13/8.

---
Tim Chow

ROLLOUT: 51 to play, unlimited play

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: ROLLOUT: 51 to play, unlimited play
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 11:11:48 -0400
Organization: The Future Fair
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 by: ah....Clem - Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:11 UTC

On 7/18/2023 5:22 PM, ah....Clem wrote:
>
> XGID=--a--aE-CA--eD---b-d-Ab-A-:0:0:1:51:0:0:3:0:10
>
> X:Player 1   O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
>  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>  | X           O    |   | O     X  O     X |
>  | X           O    |   | O        O       |
>  | X                |   | O                |
>  | X                |   | O                |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |BAR|                  |
>  | O                |   | X                |
>  | O                |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O        X  X    |   | X  O        O    |
>  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count  X: 160  O: 154 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 51

Hitting loose on the five point seemed automatic, and then it was a
matter of whether to bring one down vs running. I didn't consider
bringing two down, but that's XG's choice by the ned for tarrowest of
margins.

This came up in the online match and nobody voted for D.

XG four ply plays two down from the midpoint instead of hitting loose.
XGR++ favors hitting and bringing one down from the midpoint.
Full 1296 rollout favors two down by the smallest amounts.
Running after hitting loose is a mid-sized .052 error:

XGID=--a--aE-CA--eD---b-d-Ab-A-:0:0:1:51:0:0:3:0:10

1. Rollout¹ 13/8 9/8 eq:-0.235
Player: 44.67% (G:10.57% B:0.37%)
Opponent: 55.33% (G:16.05% B:0.64%)
Confidence: ±0.015 (-0.250..-0.220) - [62.1%]
Duration: 6 minutes 41 seconds

2. Rollout¹ 13/8 6/5* eq:-0.239 (-0.004)
Player: 45.61% (G:12.31% B:0.56%)
Opponent: 54.39% (G:18.90% B:1.37%)
Confidence: ±0.016 (-0.255..-0.222) - [37.9%]
Duration: 7 minutes 50 seconds

3. Rollout¹ 21/16 6/5* eq:-0.287 (-0.052)
Player: 45.23% (G:11.08% B:0.54%)
Opponent: 54.77% (G:21.22% B:1.58%)
Confidence: ±0.015 (-0.302..-0.272) - [0.0%]
Duration: 7 minutes 42 seconds

¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Rollout : 51 to play, unlimited play

<u9bsam$2qeb2$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Rollout : 51 to play, unlimited play
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:53:27 -0400
Organization: The Future Fair
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 by: ah....Clem - Thu, 20 Jul 2023 17:53 UTC

On 7/18/2023 5:22 PM, ah....Clem wrote:
>
> XGID=--a--aE-CA--eD---b-d-Ab-A-:0:0:1:51:0:0:3:0:10
>
> X:Player 1   O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
>  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>  | X           O    |   | O     X  O     X |
>  | X           O    |   | O        O       |
>  | X                |   | O                |
>  | X                |   | O                |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |BAR|                  |
>  | O                |   | X                |
>  | O                |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O        X  X    |   | X  O        O    |
>  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count  X: 160  O: 154 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 51

Whacking the blot on the five point seemed mandatory, then it was a
question of bringing one down or running a back checker. But XG, with
mixed results depending on the strength of the analysis, favors making a
candlestick in the eight.

Not the kind of play a human would usually even consider, but the
"normal" play is well within the margin of error.

XG four ply plays 13/9 9/8 to stack the eight point instead of hitting
loose.
XGR++ favors hitting and bringing one down from the midpoint.
Full 1296 rollout favors the stacking play by the smallest amounts.
Running after hitting loose is a mid-sized .052 error:

XGID=--a--aE-CA--eD---b-d-Ab-A-:0:0:1:51:0:0:3:0:10

1. Rollout¹ 13/8 9/8 eq:-0.235
Player: 44.67% (G:10.57% B:0.37%)
Opponent: 55.33% (G:16.05% B:0.64%)
Confidence: ±0.015 (-0.250..-0.220) - [62.1%]
Duration: 6 minutes 41 seconds

2. Rollout¹ 13/8 6/5* eq:-0.239 (-0.004)
Player: 45.61% (G:12.31% B:0.56%)
Opponent: 54.39% (G:18.90% B:1.37%)
Confidence: ±0.016 (-0.255..-0.222) - [37.9%]
Duration: 7 minutes 50 seconds

3. Rollout¹ 21/16 6/5* eq:-0.287 (-0.052)
Player: 45.23% (G:11.08% B:0.54%)
Opponent: 54.77% (G:21.22% B:1.58%)
Confidence: ±0.015 (-0.302..-0.272) - [0.0%]
Duration: 7 minutes 42 seconds

¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Re: Rollout : 51 to play, unlimited play

<u9dsjh$383su$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Rollout : 51 to play, unlimited play
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 08:10:25 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:10 UTC

On 7/20/2023 1:53 PM, ah....Clem wrote:
> XG four ply plays 13/9 9/8 to stack the eight point instead of hitting
> loose.

Do you mean that 13/9 9/8 is the play with the highest 4-ply
evaluation? There isn't any way to get XG 4-ply to actually
*play* a game, is there?

---
Tim Chow

Re: 51 to play, unlimited play

<796dc2f6-15a0-4503-aa08-38d0162c599cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: 51 to play, unlimited play
From: bananabo...@gmail.com (Stick Rice)
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 by: Stick Rice - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 15:50 UTC

On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 9:07:40 PM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
> On 7/18/2023 5:22 PM, ah....Clem wrote:
> >
> > XGID=--a--aE-CA--eD---b-d-Ab-A-:0:0:1:51:0:0:3:0:10
> >
> > X:Player 1 O:Player 2
> > Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> > +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> > | X O | | O X O X |
> > | X O | | O O |
> > | X | | O |
> > | X | | O |
> > | | | |
> > | |BAR| |
> > | O | | X |
> > | O | | X |
> > | O X | | X |
> > | O X | | X |
> > | O X X | | X O O |
> > +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> > Pip count X: 160 O: 154 X-O: 0-0
> > Cube: 1
> > X to play 51
> We have the slightly weaker board, so that maybe suggests a safe
> play, but we have no safe play. I'd just whack the blot with 6/5*
> and bring down another checker from the midpoint with 13/8.
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

So you don't consider 8, 8 a safe play because the back checkers are split?

Stick

Re: Rollout : 51 to play, unlimited play

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Subject: Re: Rollout : 51 to play, unlimited play
From: bananabo...@gmail.com (Stick Rice)
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 by: Stick Rice - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 15:58 UTC

On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 8:10:28 AM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
> On 7/20/2023 1:53 PM, ah....Clem wrote:
> > XG four ply plays 13/9 9/8 to stack the eight point instead of hitting
> > loose.
> Do you mean that 13/9 9/8 is the play with the highest 4-ply
> evaluation? There isn't any way to get XG 4-ply to actually
> *play* a game, is there?
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

I assume you're being pedantic just to ask if one can actually play against strictly 4 ply as phrasing it like ah....Clem did is exactly what I'd say too if hit the 4 ply analysis button and was reporting that back. Anyway, no, afaik one can't play against XG 4 ply though playing against XG Roller many decisions will be analyzed only to the 4 ply level.

Stick

Re: 51 to play, unlimited play

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: 51 to play, unlimited play
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 09:28:55 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Fri, 22 Sep 2023 13:28 UTC

On 9/21/2023 11:50 AM, Stick Rice wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 9:07:40 PM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
>> On 7/18/2023 5:22 PM, ah....Clem wrote:
>>>
>>> XGID=--a--aE-CA--eD---b-d-Ab-A-:0:0:1:51:0:0:3:0:10
>>>
>>> X:Player 1 O:Player 2
>>> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
>>> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>>> | X O | | O X O X |
>>> | X O | | O O |
>>> | X | | O |
>>> | X | | O |
>>> | | | |
>>> | |BAR| |
>>> | O | | X |
>>> | O | | X |
>>> | O X | | X |
>>> | O X | | X |
>>> | O X X | | X O O |
>>> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
>>> Pip count X: 160 O: 154 X-O: 0-0
>>> Cube: 1
>>> X to play 51
>> We have the slightly weaker board, so that maybe suggests a safe
>> play, but we have no safe play. I'd just whack the blot with 6/5*
>> and bring down another checker from the midpoint with 13/8.
>>
>> ---
>> Tim Chow
>
> So you don't consider 8, 8 a safe play because the back checkers are split?

Yes, that's correct.

---
Tim Chow

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