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interests / alt.language.latin / Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?

SubjectAuthor
* AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?Jeff Hill
`* Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?Ed Cryer
 +- Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?Jeff Hill
 `* Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?Jeff Hill
  `* Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?Ed Cryer
   `* Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?Jeff Hill
    `* Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?Ed Cryer
     `* Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!? QVATERJeff Hill
      `- Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!? QVATEREd Cryer

1
AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?

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From: jeffjeff...@gmail.com (Jeff Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?
Date: Sat, 01 May 2021 04:13:01 +1000
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 by: Jeff Hill - Fri, 30 Apr 2021 18:13 UTC

Good-day All,

When reading through CVIVSDAM SCRIBAE VATICANI recently written Latin
introduction to a book on the ancient Etruscan town of HATRIA ETRVSCE
= HADRIA LATINE = Adria ITALICE, I have encountered a, to me, strange
idiom, or, perhaps better, bizarre turn of phrase. He writes, for
example, when discussing the Italian names of the Public Garden and of
the Etruscanmade canal,

SAECVLO XIX PVBLICVS AVDIERAT HORTVS
in the nineteenth century it had listened to <its name as> the Public
Garden

CVM RAMVS RIVI QVI NVNC Canalbianco AVDIT
when the branch of the river which now listens to <its name as>
Canalbianco

QVA FLVIT RIVVS QVI NVNC Canalbianco AVDIT
where flows the river which now listens to <its name as> Canalbianco

Active tenses where I would have expected passive tenses and
constructions (ID EST: AVDITVS ERAT; AVDITVR).

Can someone confirm that this is a legitimate ancient idiom, and name
or categorise it according to Latin grammar terminology, and suggest a
better way, than my clumsy shuffle, to interpret it, please?

GAVFRIDVS TVMILIVS PENSATOR,
SIDNEIA, AVSTRALIA.

Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?

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From: ed...@somewhere.in.the.uk (Ed Cryer)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:39:05 +0100
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 by: Ed Cryer - Fri, 30 Apr 2021 19:39 UTC

Jeff Hill wrote:
> Good-day All,
>
> When reading through CVIVSDAM SCRIBAE VATICANI recently written Latin
> introduction to a book on the ancient Etruscan town of HATRIA ETRVSCE
> = HADRIA LATINE = Adria ITALICE, I have encountered a, to me, strange
> idiom, or, perhaps better, bizarre turn of phrase. He writes, for
> example, when discussing the Italian names of the Public Garden and of
> the Etruscanmade canal,
>
> SAECVLO XIX PVBLICVS AVDIERAT HORTVS
> in the nineteenth century it had listened to <its name as> the Public
> Garden
>
> CVM RAMVS RIVI QVI NVNC Canalbianco AVDIT
> when the branch of the river which now listens to <its name as>
> Canalbianco
>
> QVA FLVIT RIVVS QVI NVNC Canalbianco AVDIT
> where flows the river which now listens to <its name as> Canalbianco
>
> Active tenses where I would have expected passive tenses and
> constructions (ID EST: AVDITVS ERAT; AVDITVR).
>
> Can someone confirm that this is a legitimate ancient idiom, and name
> or categorise it according to Latin grammar terminology, and suggest a
> better way, than my clumsy shuffle, to interpret it, please?
>
> GAVFRIDVS TVMILIVS PENSATOR,
> SIDNEIA, AVSTRALIA.
>

Yes. There's a regular idiom of audire + dative all over classical
literature.
dicto audiens esse alicui; harken to someone's word, be under their
jurisdiction.
ne plebs nobis dicto audiens atque oboediens sit (Livy)

Ed

Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?

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From: jeffjeff...@gmail.com (Jeff Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?
Date: Sat, 01 May 2021 07:47:44 +1000
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 by: Jeff Hill - Fri, 30 Apr 2021 21:47 UTC

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:39:05 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrote:

>Yes. There's a regular idiom of audire + dative all over classical
>literature.

Good-day Ed, Yes, but!

And I will study your post, but my initial response is that the SCRIBA
VATICANVS writes his idiom as CASVS NOMINATIVVS + AVDIO, not as CASVS
FATIVVS + AVDIO.

Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?

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From: jeffjeff...@gmail.com (Jeff Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?
Date: Sat, 01 May 2021 12:32:37 +1000
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 by: Jeff Hill - Sat, 1 May 2021 02:32 UTC

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:39:05 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrote:

>Yes. There's a regular idiom of audire + dative all over classical
>literature.
>dicto audiens esse alicui; harken to someone's word, be under their
>jurisdiction.
>ne plebs nobis dicto audiens atque oboediens sit (Livy)

Good-day Ed, More, somewhat damned critical, information.

The "nominative cases" governed in some way by the verb AVDIT include
not only PVBLICVS HORTVS, but also the Italian nominative
"Canalbianco".

Jeff Hill,
Sydney.

Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?

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From: ecrye...@hotmail.com (Ed Cryer)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?
Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 09:42:42 +0100
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 by: Ed Cryer - Sat, 1 May 2021 08:42 UTC

Jeff Hill <jeffjeff.hillhill@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:39:05 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Yes. There's a regular idiom of audire + dative all over classical
>> literature.
>> dicto audiens esse alicui; harken to someone's word, be under their
>> jurisdiction.
>> ne plebs nobis dicto audiens atque oboediens sit (Livy)
>
> Good-day Ed, More, somewhat damned critical, information.
>
> The "nominative cases" governed in some way by the verb AVDIT include
> not only PVBLICVS HORTVS, but also the Italian nominative
> "Canalbianco".
>
> Jeff Hill,
> Sydney.
>

I took Canalbianco as dative, and then guessed that the scribe had a native
language in which English “is a tributary of” was rendered by “obeys” or
“submits to”.
OK, fresh start.
It quite obviously means “is known as”. And yes, I’ve found classical
examples of the usage; audire + nom.
E.g. rexque paterque Audisti coram {Horace}

--
Ed

Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?

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From: jeffjeff...@gmail.com (Jeff Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?
Date: Sun, 02 May 2021 00:01:50 +1000
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 by: Jeff Hill - Sat, 1 May 2021 14:01 UTC

On Sat, 1 May 2021 09:42:42 +0100, Ed Cryer <ecryer52@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>It quite obviously means “is known as”. And yes, I’ve found classical
>examples of the usage; audire + nom.
>E.g. rexque paterque Audisti coram {Horace}

Good-day Ed, I use my own devilish idiom, "I am having a devil of a
time interpreting and translating the Latin idiom into about the same
number of English words which reflect in some way that Latin idiom".

Horatius's use of it is, more reasonably, in the second person. My
exposure to it is always in the third person.

The Vatican scribe warns the reader somewhere that he will be using a
wideranging assemblage of wordforms drawn from simple university Latin
and from classical Latin, but the appearance of such a gem amongst a
great deal of dross is still inapproapriate!

I am inevitably urged to try my hand at it: GEMMA AVDIT INTER QVAEDAM
CACATA ALIA.

Thanks for your explanatory note.

Jeff Hill.
Sydney, Australia.

Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?

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From: ed...@somewhere.in.the.uk (Ed Cryer)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?
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 by: Ed Cryer - Sat, 1 May 2021 18:28 UTC

Jeff Hill wrote:
> On Sat, 1 May 2021 09:42:42 +0100, Ed Cryer <ecryer52@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It quite obviously means “is known as”. And yes, I’ve found classical
>> examples of the usage; audire + nom.
>> E.g. rexque paterque Audisti coram {Horace}
>
> Good-day Ed, I use my own devilish idiom, "I am having a devil of a
> time interpreting and translating the Latin idiom into about the same
> number of English words which reflect in some way that Latin idiom".
>
> Horatius's use of it is, more reasonably, in the second person. My
> exposure to it is always in the third person.
>
> The Vatican scribe warns the reader somewhere that he will be using a
> wideranging assemblage of wordforms drawn from simple university Latin
> and from classical Latin, but the appearance of such a gem amongst a
> great deal of dross is still inapproapriate!
>
> I am inevitably urged to try my hand at it: GEMMA AVDIT INTER QVAEDAM
> CACATA ALIA.
>
> Thanks for your explanatory note.
>
> Jeff Hill.
> Sydney, Australia.
>

You're playing the Aussie stereotype, Jeff. But WTF are you doing
translating some Vatican scribe, who writes half Neo-Latin and half
classical Latin, and only about Etruscan sites in Italy? It sounds
rather like a convoluted twist of reality that Stephen King could knit
into a best-seller.

Ed

Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!? QVATER

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From: jeffjeff...@gmail.com (Jeff Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!? QVATER
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 by: Jeff Hill - Sat, 1 May 2021 19:13 UTC

On Sat, 1 May 2021 19:28:50 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrote:

>You're playing the Aussie stereotype, Jeff. But WTF are you doing
>translating some Vatican scribe, who writes half Neo-Latin and half
>classical Latin, and only about Etruscan sites in Italy? It sounds
>rather like a convoluted twist of reality that Stephen King could knit
>into a best-seller.
>
>Ed

Good-day Ed, Although I know it is a rhetorical question, I will take
the opportunity to speak to it

At a time when the universal language was Latin the Germans started to
put together the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM LATINARVM and the CORPVS
INSCRIPTIONVM GRAECARVM and the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM ETRVSCARVM. For
one hundred and fifty years various scholars have added more
folio-sized FASCICVLI to the already large bulk of the bodies, written
always in university-level or lower Latin, nothing fancy, easy to
comprehend, and easily comprehended by any archaeologist or similar
who has done a few years of Latin. Imagine the damned chaos, or,
better, the sterile imbecility and spectacular futility, of writing a
part in Russian or in Polish or in Nigerian or in Arabic or in
Chinese, illegible to almost everyone on the planet (that is, prior to
google translate in recent years).

Whereas most educated Westerners know their Latin, and any Italian kid
can get the geist of a Latin sentence, and, in my case, it is just an
easy language to pick up.

Now, in the case of the volumes of the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM
ETRVSCARVM, no scholar has ever lived long enough to contribute more
than one or two (there are fourteen or fifteen). I would bet my house
that no one, besides me, has ever read them from cover to cover, with
sufficient attention to spot errors and wonder about an idiom. There
are one hundred and sixty prefaces to the Etruscan cities (um, dirty
little towns and filthy villages surrounded by cemeteries, that is)
well known to us who read Horatius and Livius -- TARQVINIA, CLVSIVM,
CAERE, FIDENAE, HADRIA, SPINA, VEII, VOLSINII, SVANA, TVSCANA, and on
and on and on. No scholar until recent years has had the benefit of
word processors and PDF documents and website sources and online
journals.

Anything lacking, I supply, Hundreds of articles on individual
inscriptions, thousands of images.

I have almost finished translating the lot into English -- many
thousands of densely printed pages -- and bits which are in German or
Italian or French or Norwegian or Swedish I am translating into Latin
and "publishing" on my plenissimvm FTP site.

Having learned Latin long ago, and having read every classical author,
and having spent forever plugging the holes in the fragmentary ones
such as Festus and all the poets in Nonius (those damaged manuscripts
which you mentioned in one of your posts), and having retired, I
looked around for something to do with my Latin, something I could
contribute to pure science. Something I could travel to Italy and
Germany and the British Library for, to reasearch in the national
libraries and museums.

And here we are. I have less than two years' work to go on the CIE. I
read the CIL for relaxation.

Jeff Hill,
Sydney, Australia.

Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!? QVATER

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From: ecrye...@hotmail.com (Ed Cryer)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!? QVATER
Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 09:48:44 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Ed Cryer - Sun, 2 May 2021 08:48 UTC

Jeff Hill <jeffjeff.hillhill@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 1 May 2021 19:28:50 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> You're playing the Aussie stereotype, Jeff. But WTF are you doing
>> translating some Vatican scribe, who writes half Neo-Latin and half
>> classical Latin, and only about Etruscan sites in Italy? It sounds
>> rather like a convoluted twist of reality that Stephen King could knit
>> into a best-seller.
>>
>> Ed
>
> Good-day Ed, Although I know it is a rhetorical question, I will take
> the opportunity to speak to it
>
> At a time when the universal language was Latin the Germans started to
> put together the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM LATINARVM and the CORPVS
> INSCRIPTIONVM GRAECARVM and the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM ETRVSCARVM. For
> one hundred and fifty years various scholars have added more
> folio-sized FASCICVLI to the already large bulk of the bodies, written
> always in university-level or lower Latin, nothing fancy, easy to
> comprehend, and easily comprehended by any archaeologist or similar
> who has done a few years of Latin. Imagine the damned chaos, or,
> better, the sterile imbecility and spectacular futility, of writing a
> part in Russian or in Polish or in Nigerian or in Arabic or in
> Chinese, illegible to almost everyone on the planet (that is, prior to
> google translate in recent years).
>
> Whereas most educated Westerners know their Latin, and any Italian kid
> can get the geist of a Latin sentence, and, in my case, it is just an
> easy language to pick up.
>
> Now, in the case of the volumes of the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM
> ETRVSCARVM, no scholar has ever lived long enough to contribute more
> than one or two (there are fourteen or fifteen). I would bet my house
> that no one, besides me, has ever read them from cover to cover, with
> sufficient attention to spot errors and wonder about an idiom. There
> are one hundred and sixty prefaces to the Etruscan cities (um, dirty
> little towns and filthy villages surrounded by cemeteries, that is)
> well known to us who read Horatius and Livius -- TARQVINIA, CLVSIVM,
> CAERE, FIDENAE, HADRIA, SPINA, VEII, VOLSINII, SVANA, TVSCANA, and on
> and on and on. No scholar until recent years has had the benefit of
> word processors and PDF documents and website sources and online
> journals.
>
> Anything lacking, I supply, Hundreds of articles on individual
> inscriptions, thousands of images.
>
> I have almost finished translating the lot into English -- many
> thousands of densely printed pages -- and bits which are in German or
> Italian or French or Norwegian or Swedish I am translating into Latin
> and "publishing" on my plenissimvm FTP site.
>
> Having learned Latin long ago, and having read every classical author,
> and having spent forever plugging the holes in the fragmentary ones
> such as Festus and all the poets in Nonius (those damaged manuscripts
> which you mentioned in one of your posts), and having retired, I
> looked around for something to do with my Latin, something I could
> contribute to pure science. Something I could travel to Italy and
> Germany and the British Library for, to reasearch in the national
> libraries and museums.
>
> And here we are. I have less than two years' work to go on the CIE. I
> read the CIL for relaxation.
>
> Jeff Hill,
> Sydney, Australia.
>

When I was at university, all the students in the science faculty had to
take a finals paper in basic German. That was the lingua franca of science
at the time. I suppose it’s now English.
In the early days of the Net English was de rigueur, but in recent years
(especially since the swing away from political liberalism) I’ve noticed
an immense increase in foreign languages all over the place.
Latin ain’t sexy no more. It’s several years since I saw a request for a
translation into Latin of some motto or maxim in this NG.

Keep slogging along. It’ll win you a place in heaven. (;-

--
Ed

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