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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: Name changes

SubjectAuthor
* Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
+* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|`* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
| `* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|  +* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |+- Re: Which sentence is better?wugi
|  |`* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|  | `* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |   `- Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|   `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|    `* Re: Which sentence is better?Madhu
|     `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|      `* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|       `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|        `* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|         `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|          `- Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
+- Re: Which sentence is better?Adam Funk
+* Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
|+* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||+* Re: Which sentence is better?bil...@shaw.ca
|||+* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
||||+- Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||||`- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
|||`* Re: Which sentence is better?CDB
||| `* Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
|||  `* Re: Which sentence is better?CDB
|||   `- Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
||+- Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||`* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
|| `* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||  +* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
||  |`- Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||  +- Re: Which sentence is better?charles
||  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||   +* Re: Which sentence is better?charles
||   |`* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter Moylan
||   | `* Re: Which sentence is better?Athel Cornish-Bowden
||   |  +- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
||   |  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Sam Plusnet
||   |   `- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
||   +* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||   |+* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
||   ||`- Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
||   |`- Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||   `* Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Quinn C
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Tony Cooper
||    |`* Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | `- Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Lewis
||    |+- Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)charles
||    |`* Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | +* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | |`* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | +* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | |+* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | | ||`- Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |+* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||+- Re: Name changesBebercito
||    | | ||`* Re: Name changesbil...@shaw.ca
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | | || ||`- Re: Name changesAthel Cornish-Bowden
||    | | || |+- Re: Name changesAthel Cornish-Bowden
||    | | || |`- Re: Name changesAnders D. Nygaard
||    | | || `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||  `* Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | ||   `- Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | |+* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||+* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | |||`* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||| `* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | |||  `- Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||+* Re: Name changesHibou
||    | | |||+* Re: Name changesRichard Heathfield
||    | | ||||+* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||+* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | ||||||`* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||| `* Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||||||  `* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | ||||||   `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||||    +- Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | | ||||||    `- Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||`- Re: Name changesbruce bowser
||    | | ||||`* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | | |||| `* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||||  `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||   `* Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||||    `* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | ||||     +* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||     |`* Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | ||||     | `* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||||     |  `* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||||     |   `- Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||     `- Re: Name changesbruce bowser
||    | | |||`- Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | ||`* Re: Name changesJanet
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesJanet
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | || |`* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | || `* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | |`* Re: Name changesJerry Friedman
||    | | +* Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | +- Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | `- Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | +* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | `* Re: Name changesCDB
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Peter T. Daniels
||    `* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Ken Blake
|`* Re: Which sentence is better?Adam Funk
+* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
`- Re: Which sentence is better?Ruud Harmsen

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Re: Name changes

<t5g7u4$45q$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 07:50:27 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: CDB - Wed, 11 May 2022 11:50 UTC

On 5/10/2022 1:22 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> Lewis:
>> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every
>>>>> book he's written.

>>>> So have I.

>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his
>>> wife, Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had
>>> changed her name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many
>>> people at this point who've done this kind of change.

>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?

> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name.
> It would never have happened with "Smith".

>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's
>> maiden name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.

> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.

> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has
> not been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget
> about this old custom. I had people be confused by my spouse and me
> having the same last name - or maybe not confused, but just doubtful
> this was her actual legal name.

> And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name"
> rather than "deadname".

Using the conventional marriage notation for trans people would raise a
small conundrum: is (say) a trans-woman "nee", for her preferred status,
or "né", for when she was born? I added the accent because a bare "ne"
seemed to need it.

>>> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from
>>> Jules to Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That
>>> confused me, since they are both male-associated names to me. But
>>> thinking about it, most anglophone people named Jules I've
>>> encountered (including fictional ones) have been women.

>> The only person I've ever known who was named Jules was female, and
>> it is a frequent nickname for Julie.

> I guess that must be the source of it, then. I hadn't seen a case
> where I knew they were officially "Julie".

Could be "Jezza", if she was a belle.

Re: Name changes

<t5g83e$45q$2@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 07:53:18 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: CDB - Wed, 11 May 2022 11:53 UTC

On 5/10/2022 8:47 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> [née]

>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name
>>> upon marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>>> outdated.

>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the
>> publication.

>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.

>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.

>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more
>> understandable form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.

>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>> include what is published in web pages.

> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage". It means
> "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for the name
> change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.

> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".

ITYM "nx". Here's such a coil!

Re: Name changes

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 08:00:20 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: CDB - Wed, 11 May 2022 12:00 UTC

On 5/11/2022 1:55 AM, Hibou wrote:
> Peter Moylan a écrit :

>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>> sometimes without the acute accent.

>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>> writing the accent.

> It's difficult to have everyone agree.

> I think I'd say a word is naturalised when a majority of speakers
> treat it as native - pronunciation, pluralisation, inflection or not
> for gender, conjugation if it's a verb, and so on.

> An example that seems to be stuck halfway is 'homage'. For myself,
> I'd treat it as naturalised, and pronounce it à l'anglaise (hɒmɪdʒ) -
> yet I hear a lot of people try to do so à la française, while voicing
> the 'h' instead of saying 'omaage (ɔmaʒ). I wish they'd spare us this
> hybrid.

I pronounce it (hɒmɪdʒ) ['hAmidZ], like you. When I say "'omaage"
[om'AZ], I spell it in French: "hommage".

Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 14:02:03 +0200
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Wed, 11 May 2022 12:02 UTC

On 2022-05-11 11:39:56 +0000, CDB said:

> On 5/10/2022 11:38 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> Quinn C wrote:
>
>>> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from
>>> Jules to Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That
>>> confused me, since they are both male-associated names to me. But
>>> thinking about it, most anglophone people named Jules I've
>>> encountered (including fictional ones) have been women.
>
>> I know only the Broadway composer Jule Styne (*Gypsy*, *Funny
>> Girl*), pronounced "Julie" -- OMG, he was a Brit
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jule_Styne
>
>> and the director Jules Dassin -- who I always assumed was French, but
>> I learned from the *Naked City* (movie) DVD that he was a nize Jewish
>> boy from New York -- "joolz DASS-in."
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Dassin
>
> We can assume M. Massenet was French. I do, anyway.

Not to mention M. le Divisionnaire Maigret.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: Name changes

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
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Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Wed, 11 May 2022 12:04 UTC

On 2022-05-11 11:53:18 +0000, CDB said:

> On 5/10/2022 8:47 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> [née]
>
>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name
>>>> upon marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>
>>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the
>>> publication.
>
>>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to another
>>> first name or is known by a different first name than her birth first
>>> name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>
>>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from John.
>>> Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>
>>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more
>>> understandable form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>
>>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>>> include what is published in web pages.
>
>> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage". It means
>> "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for the name
>> change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
>
>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>
> ITYM "nx". Here's such a coil!

Maybe né(e?) would be clearer.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: Name changes

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Peter Moylan - Wed, 11 May 2022 12:35 UTC

On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org.invalid
> says...
>>
>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>
>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
>>
>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>> sometimes without the acute accent.
>>
>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>> writing the accent.
>
> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>
> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable

In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: Name changes

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 22:38:03 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Wed, 11 May 2022 12:38 UTC

>> And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name"
>> rather than "deadname".

Adoptees also use "birth name".

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

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From: h.i...@b.ou (Hibou)
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Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 13:57:34 +0100
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 by: Hibou - Wed, 11 May 2022 12:57 UTC

Le 11/05/2022 à 13:04, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2022-05-11 11:53:18 +0000, CDB said:
>> On 5/10/2022 8:47 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>
>> ITYM "nx".  Here's such a coil!
>
> Maybe né(e?) would be clearer.

Nay.

Re: Name changes

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From: lar...@invalid.ca (lar3ryca)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 07:03:36 -0600
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 by: lar3ryca - Wed, 11 May 2022 13:03 UTC

On 2022-05-10 23:18, Lewis wrote:
> In message <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>
>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the
>>> word is née and wtf is né?
>
>> French adjectives inflect for gender,
>
> Yes, I know, thus "confusing to anyone who is not a francophone".
>
>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>> writing the accent.
>
> Résumé puts paid to that.

Certainly not in my English. I seldom see it written with any accent
marks at all.

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Adam Funk - Wed, 11 May 2022 13:06 UTC

On 2022-05-11, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
>> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org.invalid
>> says...
>>>
>>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>
>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
>>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>
>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
>>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>>> sometimes without the acute accent.
>>>
>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>> writing the accent.
>>
>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>>
>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable

I can't recall ever hearing a female driver called a "chauffeuse" in
English except facetiously among people studying French.

> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.

I don't think blond/e is consistently inflected for gender in AmE;
some people do it & some don't.

--
It was far easier for you as civilised men to behave
like barbarians, than it was for them as barbarians to
behave like civilised men. ---Spock

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From: h.i...@b.ou (Hibou)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 14:17:13 +0100
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 by: Hibou - Wed, 11 May 2022 13:17 UTC

Le 11/05/2022 à 12:50, CDB a écrit :
>
> Using the conventional marriage notation for trans people would raise a
> small conundrum: is (say) a trans-woman "nee", for her preferred status,
> or "né", for when she was born?  I added the accent because a bare "ne"
> seemed to need it.

There is a movement in France towards so-called inclusive writing
(l'écriture inclusive), one controversial component of which is what I
call 'dotty writing' (l'écriture à point médian), where the word would
be written 'né·e' (singular ungendered) or 'né·e·s' (singular or
plural). Dotty writing is fashionable among some politically correct
types, but is almost certain to disappear. It is hard work to write,
especially in any long text, and its pronunciation is unclear. One could
also object that the masculine part still comes first, and it is still
firmly based in binarism.

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From: nob...@home.com (Janet)
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Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Janet - Wed, 11 May 2022 13:34 UTC

In article <t5gai6$ua6$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...
>
> On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
> > In article <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org.invalid
> > says...
> >>
> >> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
> >>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> >>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
> >>>
> >>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
> >>> the word is née and wtf is né?
> >>
> >> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
> >> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
> >> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
> >> sometimes without the acute accent.
> >>
> >> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> >> writing the accent.
> >
> > In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
> > recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
> >
> > Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>
> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.

Are you sure? I think br.E speakers still use blonde/blonde according
to context and grammar.

I'd describe a man's yellow hair as "blond". His hair is blond.

While noun "blonde" refers to a female with yellow hair. She's a
blonde.

Janet

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 15:50:31 +0200
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Wed, 11 May 2022 13:50 UTC

On 2022-05-11 13:06:30 +0000, Adam Funk said:

> On 2022-05-11, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
>>> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org.invalid
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
>>>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>>
>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
>>>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>>>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>>>> sometimes without the acute accent.
>>>>
>>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>>> writing the accent.
>>>
>>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>>>
>>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>
> I can't recall ever hearing a female driver called a "chauffeuse" in
> English except facetiously among people studying French.

Nor can I.

As for maître/maîtresse, maître refers in French to any lawyer,
regardless of sex; maîtresse has various very different meanings (more
or less the same range as English mistress), but there seems no obvious
reason for importing it into English.

>
>
>
>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.
>
> I don't think blond/e is consistently inflected for gender in AmE;
> some people do it & some don't.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: Name changes

<je1tciFbqqtU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 15:52:17 +0200
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Wed, 11 May 2022 13:52 UTC

On 2022-05-11 13:34:39 +0000, Janet said:

> In article <t5gai6$ua6$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org.invalid
> says...
>>
>> On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
>>> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org.invalid
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
>>>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>>
>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
>>>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>>>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>>>> sometimes without the acute accent.
>>>>
>>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>>> writing the accent.
>>>
>>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>>>
>>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>>
>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>> blond/blonde.

There is also "Filipino/Filipina" (though personally I use Filipino for both).

>> Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.
>
> Are you sure? I think br.E speakers still use blonde/blonde according
> to context and grammar.
>
> I'd describe a man's yellow hair as "blond". His hair is blond.
>
> While noun "blonde" refers to a female with yellow hair. She's a
> blonde.
>
> Janet

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: Name changes

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Wed, 11 May 2022 14:27 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:48:01 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:

> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".

Except, being French, it's gendered. Perhaps nÉe?

Re: Name changes

<15i0ocjs6f2o5$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Wed, 11 May 2022 14:31 UTC

* Adam Funk:

> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>
>> * Lewis:
>>
>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>written.
>>>>>
>>>>> So have I.
>>>
>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>
>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>
>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>
>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>
>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>
>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>
> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
> just that it isn't the default?

Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.

My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
your married name as an addendum".

I used scare quotes in the above because her "birth name" is the name
before marriage, but not the name she actually had from birth, because
she changed it once before, both given and family name.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Re: Name changes

<f5k8lza629wo$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Wed, 11 May 2022 14:31 UTC

* CDB:

> On 5/10/2022 1:22 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>> Lewis:
>>> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every
>>>>>> book he's written.
>
>>>>> So have I.
>
>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his
>>>> wife, Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had
>>>> changed her name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many
>>>> people at this point who've done this kind of change.
>
>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>
>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name.
>> It would never have happened with "Smith".
>
>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's
>>> maiden name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>
>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>
>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has
>> not been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget
>> about this old custom. I had people be confused by my spouse and me
>> having the same last name - or maybe not confused, but just doubtful
>> this was her actual legal name.
>
>> And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name"
>> rather than "deadname".
>
> Using the conventional marriage notation for trans people would raise a
> small conundrum: is (say) a trans-woman "nee", for her preferred status,
> or "né", for when she was born? I added the accent because a bare "ne"
> seemed to need it.

"né.e" is the way of staying neutral I see most.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)

<6c0faff3-f965-41c2-ac81-481995392521n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Wed, 11 May 2022 14:32 UTC

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:40:01 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> On 5/10/2022 11:38 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Quinn C wrote:

> >> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from
> >> Jules to Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That
> >> confused me, since they are both male-associated names to me. But
> >> thinking about it, most anglophone people named Jules I've
> >> encountered (including fictional ones) have been women.
> > I know only the Broadway composer Jule Styne (*Gypsy*, *Funny
> > Girl*), pronounced "Julie" -- OMG, he was a Brit
>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jule_Styne
>
> > and the director Jules Dassin -- who I always assumed was French, but
> > I learned from the *Naked City* (movie) DVD that he was a nize Jewish
> > boy from New York -- "joolz DASS-in."
>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Dassin
>
> We can assume M. Massenet was French. I do, anyway.

Had he been a good enough student to be considered Anglophone?

Re: Name changes

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Wed, 11 May 2022 14:34 UTC

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:48:15 AM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> says...
> > On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
> > > In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> > > <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> > >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
> > > It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the
> > > word is née and wtf is né?
> > French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née is
> > feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although the
> > feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and sometimes
> > without the acute accent.
> > We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> > writing the accent.
>
> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>
> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable

An awful lot of masseurs are being called masseuses these days.
(In TV scripts.)

Re: Name changes

<30b96b9a-58db-4d69-a04a-d527de24d887n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:21 UTC

Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 15:15:07 UTC+2, Adam Funk a écrit :
> On 2022-05-11, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> > On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
> >> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> >> says...
> >>>
> >>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
> >>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> >>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
> >>>>
> >>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
> >>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
> >>>
> >>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
> >>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
> >>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
> >>> sometimes without the acute accent.
> >>>
> >>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> >>> writing the accent.
> >>
> >> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
> >> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
> >>
> >> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
> I can't recall ever hearing a female driver called a "chauffeuse" in
> English except facetiously among people studying French.

In French, a female driver is actually called a "chauffeur" (or sometimes
"chauffeure", with the reform of orthography), while "chauffeuse" refers
either to a female stoker or a type of low chair.

> > In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
> > blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.
> I don't think blond/e is consistently inflected for gender in AmE;
> some people do it & some don't.
>
>
> --
> It was far easier for you as civilised men to behave
> like barbarians, than it was for them as barbarians to
> behave like civilised men. ---Spock

Re: Name changes

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 09:23:02 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:23 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:47:53 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>[née]
>
>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>>> outdated.
>>
>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>>
>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>>
>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>>
>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>>
>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>> include what is published in web pages.
>
>As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage". It means "born".
>So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for the name change. But
>of course in English it doesn't, so far.
>
>Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".

I do. If I saw that, I'd think it had née misspelled, and referred to
a married woman whose last name is Quinn, whose last name before
marriage was Oliver.

Re: Name changes

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 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:30 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 22:41:42 -0700 (PDT), "bil...@shaw.ca"
<billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:46:08 PM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2022-05-10 20:40, Lewis wrote:
>> > In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> >> On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
>> >>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> >
>> >> [née]
>> >
>> >>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>> >>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>> >>>> outdated.
>> >>>
>> >>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>> >>>
>> >>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>> >>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>> >>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>> >>>
>> >>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>> >>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>> >>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>> >>>
>> >>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
>> >>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>> >>>
>> >>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>> >>> include what is published in web pages.
>> >
>> >> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".
>> >
>> > Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.
>> >
>> >> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
>> >> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
>> >
>> > The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
>> > seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
>> > changes his name) after marriage.
>> >
>> >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>> >
>> > It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the word
>> > is née and wtf is né?
>
>> As far as I can remember, I have only seen it written 'nee'.
>
>My home Oxford, which is 35 or 40 years from its printing, has ne' as a man's
>name at birth. There seems to be an implication that his name is something
>different now than when he was born.

To me, née always refers to a woman's last name before she changed it
when she married. Since men don't normally change their last name at
marriage, that usage of né would be so rare, that if I saw it, I'd
think it was most likely a typo or a misspelling of née.

Re: Name changes

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 09:31:47 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:31 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 07:03:36 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2022-05-10 23:18, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>
>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the
>>>> word is née and wtf is né?
>>
>>> French adjectives inflect for gender,
>>
>> Yes, I know, thus "confusing to anyone who is not a francophone".
>>
>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>> writing the accent.
>>
>> Résumé puts paid to that.
>
>Certainly not in my English. I seldom see it written with any accent
>marks at all.

Same for me.

Re: Name changes

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 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:37 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 12:48:05 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

>In article <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org.invalid
>says...
>>
>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>> > In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>> > <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>> >
>> > It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the
>> > word is née and wtf is né?
>>
>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née is
>> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although the
>> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and sometimes
>> without the acute accent.
>>
>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>> writing the accent.
>
> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.

My mother-in-law, who was very poorly educated, knew the difference
between "fiancee" and "fiance." What she didn't know was how to
pronounce "fiance." Before we were married, she would call me her
daughter's fee-AHNZ.

Re: Name changes

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 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:40 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 22:35:18 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
>> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org.invalid
>> says...
>>>
>>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>
>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
>>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>
>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
>>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>>> sometimes without the acute accent.
>>>
>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>> writing the accent.
>>
>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>>
>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>
>In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.

I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely does
these days.

Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.

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