On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Adam Funk:
>
>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>
>>> * Lewis:
>>>
>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>
>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>
>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>
>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>
>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>
>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>
>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>
>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>> just that it isn't the default?
>
>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>
>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>your married name as an addendum".

I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
husband's when they were married, usually because they were
professionally known by their birth name.

On Wed, 11 May 2022 14:17:13 +0100, Hibou <h.i@b.ou> wrote:

>Le 11/05/2022 à 12:50, CDB a écrit :
>>
>> Using the conventional marriage notation for trans people would raise a
>> small conundrum: is (say) a trans-woman "nee", for her preferred status,
>> or "né", for when she was born?  I added the accent because a bare "ne"
>> seemed to need it.
>
>There is a movement in France towards so-called inclusive writing
>(l'écriture inclusive), one controversial component of which is what I
>call 'dotty writing' (l'écriture à point médian), where the word would
>be written 'né·e' (singular ungendered) or 'né·e·s' (singular or
>plural). Dotty writing is fashionable among some politically correct
>types, but is almost certain to disappear.

I certainly hope it disappears It looks dotty to me.

On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* CDB:
>
>> On 5/10/2022 1:22 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>>> Lewis:
>>>> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every
>>>>>>> book he's written.
>>
>>>>>> So have I.
>>
>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his
>>>>> wife, Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had
>>>>> changed her name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many
>>>>> people at this point who've done this kind of change.
>>
>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>
>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name.
>>> It would never have happened with "Smith".
>>
>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's
>>>> maiden name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>
>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>
>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has
>>> not been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget
>>> about this old custom. I had people be confused by my spouse and me
>>> having the same last name - or maybe not confused, but just doubtful
>>> this was her actual legal name.
>>
>>> And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name"
>>> rather than "deadname".
>>
>> Using the conventional marriage notation for trans people would raise a
>> small conundrum: is (say) a trans-woman "nee", for her preferred status,
>> or "né", for when she was born? I added the accent because a bare "ne"
>> seemed to need it.
>
>"né.e" is the way of staying neutral I see most.

I've never seen it.

On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:30:38 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 10 May 2022 22:41:42 -0700 (PDT), "bil...@shaw.ca"
><billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:46:08 PM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-10 20:40, Lewis wrote:
>>> > In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>> >> On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> >>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
>>> >>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> [née]
>>> >
>>> >>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>> >>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>>> >>>> outdated.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>>> >>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>>> >>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>>> >>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>>> >>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
>>> >>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>>> >>> include what is published in web pages.
>>> >
>>> >> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".
>>> >
>>> > Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.
>>> >
>>> >> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
>>> >> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
>>> >
>>> > The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
>>> > seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
>>> > changes his name) after marriage.
>>> >
>>> >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>> >
>>> > It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the word
>>> > is née and wtf is né?
>>
>>> As far as I can remember, I have only seen it written 'nee'.
>>
>>My home Oxford, which is 35 or 40 years from its printing, has ne' as a man's
>>name at birth. There seems to be an implication that his name is something
>>different now than when he was born.
>
>
>To me, née always refers to a woman's last name before she changed it
>when she married. Since men don't normally change their last name at
>marriage, that usage of né would be so rare, that if I saw it, I'd
>think it was most likely a typo or a misspelling of née.

The use of née is supposed to be to identify her to people who knew
her when her last name was her original last name.

Is it appropriate, though, when a woman has been using a prior
husband's last name for a long time but has now re-married?

Was "Joyce Smith (née Jones) Joyce Jones prior to her first marriage,
or Joyce (née Brown) Jones before she married Mr Smith?

The nursing school and high school newsletters that my wife receives
use her married name as her last name, but the last name she used when
in nursing school and high school in parenthesis.

Simple for my wife, but some of the women on the lists have changed
married names over time.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>My mother-in-law, who was very poorly educated, knew the difference
>between "fiancee" and "fiance." What she didn't know was how to
>pronounce "fiance." Before we were married, she would call me her
>daughter's fee-AHNZ.

fi·an·cé A man engaged to be married.
fi·an·cée A woman engaged to be married.

Both are pronounced the same. The most common US pronunciation is

ˌfiː ɑːn ˈsᴇˑɪ

closely followed by

fiː ˈɑːns ᴇˑɪ

, French, both:

fjã se

.

ᴇ a sound between [e] and [ɛ], usually transcribed as either [e] or [ɛ]

On 11 May 2022 16:53:02 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
wrote:

>Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>My mother-in-law, who was very poorly educated, knew the difference
>>between "fiancee" and "fiance." What she didn't know was how to
>>pronounce "fiance." Before we were married, she would call me her
>>daughter's fee-AHNZ.
>
>fi·an·cé A man engaged to be married.

Yes, I know.

>fi·an·cée A woman engaged to be married.

Yes, I know.

> Both are pronounced the same.

Yes, I know.

I was talking about what my mother-in-law knew and didn't know.

On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:45:54 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
><lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Adam Funk:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>>
>>>> * Lewis:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>>
>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>
>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>
>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>
>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>
>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>>
>>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>>> just that it isn't the default?
>>
>>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>>
>>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>>your married name as an addendum".
>
>
>I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>professionally known by their birth name.

We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
name professionally.

I don't know how that works if they have to sign a document or to
which name their paycheck is written. Never asked.

This came up recently when my wife called a friend at the friend's
workplace and was told that there wasn't an employee there with that
name. The friend had re-married about five years ago, but kept her
previous husband's last name at the office because she'd used that
name for several years.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>On 11 May 2022 16:53:02 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>wrote:
>>fi·an·cé A man engaged to be married.
>Yes, I know.

Yes, I knew.

I wrote it for the English learners reading this group.

On Wed, 11 May 2022 13:12:57 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:45:54 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
>><lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>* Adam Funk:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> * Lewis:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>>
>>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>>
>>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>>
>>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>>
>>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>>>
>>>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>>>> just that it isn't the default?
>>>
>>>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>>>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>>>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>>>
>>>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>>>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>>>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>>>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>>>your married name as an addendum".
>>
>>
>>I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>>husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>>professionally known by their birth name.
>
>We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
>professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
>name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
>name professionally.

Yes, come to think of it, I've known one or two who did the same.

On 2022-05-11 16:30:38 +0000, Ken Blake said:

> On Tue, 10 May 2022 22:41:42 -0700 (PDT), "bil...@shaw.ca"
> <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>> [ … ]
>>
>> My home Oxford, which is 35 or 40 years from its printing, has ne' as a man's
>> name at birth. There seems to be an implication that his name is something
>> different now than when he was born.
>
> To me, née always refers to a woman's last name before she changed it
> when she married. Since men don't normally change their last name at
> marriage, that usage of né would be so rare, that if I saw it, I'd
> think it was most likely a typo or a misspelling of née.

It is rare, yes, but it occurs systematically in genealogy texts when
appropriate (as it is, for example, for my greatgrandfather).

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On 2022-05-11 16:49:54 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:30:38 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> [ … ]
>>
>
> Simple for my wife, but some of the women on the lists have changed
> married names over time.

I had a PhD student at Birmingham who had had three different names
while still an undergraduate (and who didn't marry in that time). I
told her that if she wanted a career in research she should choose ONE
name and stick to it for her whole career.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On 2022-05-11 17:10:09 +0000, Ken Blake said:

> On 11 May 2022 16:53:02 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
> wrote:
>
>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>> My mother-in-law, who was very poorly educated, knew the difference
>>> between "fiancee" and "fiance." What she didn't know was how to
>>> pronounce "fiance." Before we were married, she would call me her
>>> daughter's fee-AHNZ.
>>
>> fi·an·cé A man engaged to be married.
>
>
> Yes, I know.
>
>> fi·an·cée A woman engaged to be married.
>
>
> Yes, I know.
>
>> Both are pronounced the same.
>
> Yes, I know.
>
> I was talking about what my mother-in-law knew and didn't know.

Does Stefan seriously imagine that there are people here who don't know
all that?

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

* Ken Blake:

> On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* CDB:
>>
>>> On 5/10/2022 1:22 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> Lewis:
>>>>> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every
>>>>>>>> book he's written.
>>>
>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>
>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his
>>>>>> wife, Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had
>>>>>> changed her name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many
>>>>>> people at this point who've done this kind of change.
>>>
>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>
>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name.
>>>> It would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>
>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's
>>>>> maiden name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>
>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>
>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has
>>>> not been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget
>>>> about this old custom. I had people be confused by my spouse and me
>>>> having the same last name - or maybe not confused, but just doubtful
>>>> this was her actual legal name.
>>>
>>>> And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name"
>>>> rather than "deadname".
>>>
>>> Using the conventional marriage notation for trans people would raise a
>>> small conundrum: is (say) a trans-woman "nee", for her preferred status,
>>> or "né", for when she was born? I added the accent because a bare "ne"
>>> seemed to need it.
>>
>>"né.e" is the way of staying neutral I see most.
>
> I've never seen it.

But then, I guess you don't read much French. Even I don't, not really
much.

Within English, even "né" or "ne" is so rare that I wouldn't expect it
to catch on. "Nee" could become perceived as neutral, as "fiancee" is to
some.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

* Ken Blake:

> On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Adam Funk:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>>
>>>> * Lewis:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>>
>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>
>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>
>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>
>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>
>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>>
>>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>>> just that it isn't the default?
>>
>>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>>
>>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>>your married name as an addendum".
>
> I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
> husband's when they were married, usually because they were
> professionally known by their birth name.

That you even say it this way dates you. For more and more younger
people, there isn't even a "default way" and "the exception" any more,
but a range of possibilities what two people could do with their names
if they marry.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

* Stefan Ram:

> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>My mother-in-law, who was very poorly educated, knew the difference
>>between "fiancee" and "fiance." What she didn't know was how to
>>pronounce "fiance." Before we were married, she would call me her
>>daughter's fee-AHNZ.
>
> fi·an·cé A man engaged to be married.
> fi·an·cée A woman engaged to be married.
>
> Both are pronounced the same. The most common US pronunciation is
>
> ˌfiː ɑːn ˈsᴇˑɪ
>
> closely followed by
>
> fiː ˈɑːns ᴇˑɪ

I'm surprised. I'm pretty sure I heard it with the main stress on the
first syllables (secondary on the third) multiple times (on TV).

--
If this guy wants to fight with weapons, I've got it covered
from A to Z. From axe to... zee other axe.
-- Buffy s05e03

On 2022-05-11, Quinn C wrote:

> * Adam Funk:
>
>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>
>>> * Lewis:
>>>
>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>
>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>
>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>
>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>
>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>
>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>
>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>
>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>> just that it isn't the default?
>
> Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
> generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
> marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.

I just found that online:

Selon le Code civil du Québec, chacun des époux conserve son nom
après le mariage et exerce ses droits civils sous ce nom. Ainsi, si
une femme mariée désire obtenir le nom de famille de son époux, le
Directeur de l'état civil ne lui accordera ce changement de nom que
dans une situation exceptionnelle.

<https://etatcivil.gouv.qc.ca/fr/changement-nom.html>

It strikes me as progressive that not changing it is normal, but
arrogant of the state to say that you can't change your own name just
because you want to.

> My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
> their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
> legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
> her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
> your married name as an addendum".
>
> I used scare quotes in the above because her "birth name" is the name
> before marriage, but not the name she actually had from birth, because
> she changed it once before, both given and family name.
>

--
In general, I find that calligraphers are just about the nicest people
I've ever met. ---Donald Knuth

On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:

> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:45:54 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
>><lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>* Adam Funk:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> * Lewis:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>>
>>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>>
>>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>>
>>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>>
>>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>>>
>>>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>>>> just that it isn't the default?
>>>
>>>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>>>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>>>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>>>
>>>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>>>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>>>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>>>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>>>your married name as an addendum".
>>
>>
>>I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>>husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>>professionally known by their birth name.
>
> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
> name professionally.

You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
not?

> I don't know how that works if they have to sign a document or to
> which name their paycheck is written. Never asked.
>
> This came up recently when my wife called a friend at the friend's
> workplace and was told that there wasn't an employee there with that
> name. The friend had re-married about five years ago, but kept her
> previous husband's last name at the office because she'd used that
> name for several years.
>

--
One could hardly get rich if one bothered all the time about whether
what one was doing was wrong or right.

On 11-May-22 6:41, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:46:08 PM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2022-05-10 20:40, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
>>>>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [née]
>>>
>>>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>>>>>> outdated.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>>>>>
>>>>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>>>>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>>>>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>>>>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>>>>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
>>>>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>>>>>
>>>>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>>>>> include what is published in web pages.
>>>
>>>> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".
>>>
>>> Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.
>>>
>>>> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
>>>> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
>>>
>>> The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
>>> seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
>>> changes his name) after marriage.
>>>
>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>
>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the word
>>> is née and wtf is né?
>
>> As far as I can remember, I have only seen it written 'nee'.
>
> My home Oxford, which is 35 or 40 years from its printing, has ne' as a man's
> name at birth. There seems to be an implication that his name is something
> different now than when he was born.

If his mother remarried during his childhood, he might take the surname
of the step-father[1]. I suppose there might be accommodation made for
such eventualities.

[1] There have been other reasons for a male to change surnames, often
involving money.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 11-May-22 11:09, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 11/05/22 19:30, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2022-05-11, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:

>>>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
>>>
>>> No, it's not.
>>
>> Oh yes it is.
>
> Behind you!

Leave my behind out of this.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 11-May-22 18:14, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>> On 11 May 2022 16:53:02 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>> wrote:
>>> fi·an·cé A man engaged to be married.
>> Yes, I know.
>
> Yes, I knew.
>
> I wrote it for the English learners reading this group.

Interesting.
I assumed that the "English learners" each start a thread by asking a
question, and only ever look at the responses to those specific questions.

I don't recall any occasions when they have popped up in an existing
thread to ask a question. (Or is my recall faulty?)

--
Sam Plusnet

On 5/11/2022 10:32 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> CDB wrote: Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> Quinn C wrote:

>>>> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name
>>>> from Jules to Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons.
>>>> That confused me, since they are both male-associated names to
>>>> me. But thinking about it, most anglophone people named Jules
>>>> I've encountered (including fictional ones) have been women.
>>> I know only the Broadway composer Jule Styne (*Gypsy*, *Funny
>>> Girl*), pronounced "Julie" -- OMG, he was a Brit

>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jule_Styne

>>> and the director Jules Dassin -- who I always assumed was French,
>>> but I learned from the *Naked City* (movie) DVD that he was a
>>> nize Jewish boy from New York -- "joolz DASS-in."

>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Dassin

>> We can assume M. Massenet was French. I do, anyway.

> Had he been a good enough student to be considered Anglophone?

<Marcel> Non! <Marceau>

On Wed, 11 May 2022 13:47:27 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Ken Blake:
>
>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>* CDB:
>>>
>>>> On 5/10/2022 1:22 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>> Lewis:
>>>>>> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every
>>>>>>>>> book he's written.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his
>>>>>>> wife, Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had
>>>>>>> changed her name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many
>>>>>>> people at this point who've done this kind of change.
>>>>
>>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>
>>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name.
>>>>> It would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>
>>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's
>>>>>> maiden name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>
>>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>
>>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has
>>>>> not been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget
>>>>> about this old custom. I had people be confused by my spouse and me
>>>>> having the same last name - or maybe not confused, but just doubtful
>>>>> this was her actual legal name.
>>>>
>>>>> And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name"
>>>>> rather than "deadname".
>>>>
>>>> Using the conventional marriage notation for trans people would raise a
>>>> small conundrum: is (say) a trans-woman "nee", for her preferred status,
>>>> or "né", for when she was born? I added the accent because a bare "ne"
>>>> seemed to need it.
>>>
>>>"né.e" is the way of staying neutral I see most.
>>
>> I've never seen it.
>
>But then, I guess you don't read much French.

None. I know only a little French. Very little.

>Even I don't, not really
>much.
>
>Within English, even "né" or "ne" is so rare that I wouldn't expect it
>to catch on. "Nee" could become perceived as neutral, as "fiancee" is to
>some.

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes:
>On 11-May-22 18:14, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>>On 11 May 2022 16:53:02 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>>>wrote:
>>>>fi·an·cé A man engaged to be married.
>>>Yes, I know.
>>Yes, I knew.
>>I wrote it for the English learners reading this group.
>Interesting.
>I assumed that the "English learners" each start a thread by asking a
>question, and only ever look at the responses to those specific questions.

Yes, that's true!

>I don't recall any occasions when they have popped up in an existing
>thread to ask a question. (Or is my recall faulty?)

From a mathematical point of view, I was writing it for the
elements of the set of learners, which set might be empty.

But I am also a learner of English, so I also wrote it for
my own sake.

On Wed, 11 May 2022 19:32:24 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:45:54 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
>>><lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>>* Adam Funk:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> * Lewis:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>>>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>>>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>>>>
>>>>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>>>>> just that it isn't the default?
>>>>
>>>>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>>>>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>>>>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>>>>
>>>>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>>>>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>>>>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>>>>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>>>>your married name as an addendum".
>>>
>>>
>>>I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>>>husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>>>professionally known by their birth name.
>>
>> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
>> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
>> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
>> name professionally.
>
>You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
>not?
>
No. When a woman marries in the US there's no legal reason for her to
adopt her husband's last name or to retain her own last name.

I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is used to mean "what's on
record". A woman can legally change her name by getting a new
driver's license using her married name, because - for many purposes -
that's what's now on record. She can also change her last name by
notifying the Social Security Administration. She can also change
her name on bank accounts, credit cards, and that sort of thing. She
can change her last name with her employer so future paychecks bear
her new name.

If she doesn't make those changes, she can continue to use her former
name. In either case, socially she can be whatever she introduces
herself as.

In the example I gave, they are women who have not changed their
employer records, so they are known at work by their maiden name, but
known socially by their married last name.

I wouldn't know, of course, what's on their driver's license or bank
account, etc.
>
>> I don't know how that works if they have to sign a document or to
>> which name their paycheck is written. Never asked.
>>
>> This came up recently when my wife called a friend at the friend's
>> workplace and was told that there wasn't an employee there with that
>> name. The friend had re-married about five years ago, but kept her
>> previous husband's last name at the office because she'd used that
>> name for several years.
>>
This one is a travel agent, and had a customer base before she
re-married. Her past customers don't know her new married name.
When she meets someone socially who might be a new customer, she
explains the situation, but it never came up with my wife because our
contact is social-only.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Den 11-05-2022 kl. 18:30 skrev Ken Blake:
> To me, née always refers to a woman's last name before she changed it
> when she married.

That would also be my expectation (and the surname following née
will remain the same for all her marriages)

> Since men don't normally change their last name at
> marriage,

I did.

> that usage of né would be so rare, that if I saw it, I'd
> think it was most likely a typo or a misspelling of née.

Even if applied to a person you know to be male?

/Anders, Denmark