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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

SubjectAuthor
* An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
| +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencespains...@gmail.com
| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|    |   |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |     `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|     `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|      +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|      |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|      | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAdam Funk
|      | | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|      |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      |  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|      |  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat
|       | ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceLewis
|       | | ||  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | | |||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceGordonD
|       | | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJoy Beeson
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|       | | ||   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRichard Heathfield
|       | | ||   | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJanet
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMack A. Damia
|       | | |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|       | |   | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |  |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAnders D. Nygaard
|       | |   |  | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |  |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|       | |   |  |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |   |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |   |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   |    ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | |   |    || +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |    || `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMadhu
|       | |   |    |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |   |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|       | |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |    |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||| `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSilvano
|       | |    ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStoat
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | |    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat

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An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<0c47be90-5c9c-4fd1-884e-ac7a3edcb2e3n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Mon, 9 May 2022 14:22 UTC

Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].

Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
"garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.

Isn't that weird?

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<v-20220509164749@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: 9 May 2022 15:48:06 GMT
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 by: Stefan Ram - Mon, 9 May 2022 15:48 UTC

Bebercito <bebercito@aol.com> writes:
>Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
>"garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
>and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
>Isn't that weird?

The English noun "v" is pronounced [viː],
exactly like the German word "wie"!

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Mon, 9 May 2022 17:32 UTC

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 10:22:46 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:

> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
>
> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
>
> Isn't that weird?

Not in the slightest. It's called regular sound change.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<ed095e27-d963-4af9-a08f-6970b9137793n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Mon, 9 May 2022 18:57 UTC

Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 19:32:07 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 10:22:46 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
> > Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> > only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> > and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
> >
> > Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> > "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> > and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
> >
> > Isn't that weird?
> Not in the slightest. It's called regular sound change.

But what were the odds that French and English both had
words that sounded alike for two notions as different as
charretière-carter and jarretière-garter, and that the only
phonetic difference in both cases was the (de)voicing
of their initial consonants? Next to zilch, if you ask me.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<95d618af-f64b-43d8-a971-133cee4d69d1n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: spainsha...@gmail.com (spains...@gmail.com)
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 by: spains...@gmail.com - Mon, 9 May 2022 20:15 UTC

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:57:20 PM UTC+1, Bebercito wrote:
> Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 19:32:07 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 10:22:46 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >
> > > Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> > > only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> > > and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
> > >
> > > Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> > > "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> > > and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
> > >
> > > Isn't that weird?
> > Not in the slightest. It's called regular sound change.
> But what were the odds that French and English both had
> words that sounded alike for two notions as different as
> charretière-carter and jarretière-garter, and that the only
> phonetic difference in both cases was the (de)voicing
> of their initial consonants? Next to zilch, if you ask me.

That is how randomness works, and why it can never be
simulated by "random numbers".

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<b83d050c-046d-48c7-9ff5-23414691ba62n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Mon, 9 May 2022 20:17 UTC

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 2:57:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 19:32:07 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 10:22:46 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:

> > > Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> > > only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> > > and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
> > > Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> > > "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> > > and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
> > > Isn't that weird?
> > Not in the slightest. It's called regular sound change.
>
> But what were the odds that French and English both had
> words that sounded alike for two notions as different as
> charretière-carter and jarretière-garter, and that the only
> phonetic difference in both cases was the (de)voicing
> of their initial consonants? Next to zilch, if you ask me.

The odds are enormous, since it's highly likely that English borrowed
both words from French, as it did thousands of words beginning in
1066 (or maybe even before) and continuing to this day.

If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
your problem.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<n8mski67lq6u$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Quinn C - Mon, 9 May 2022 21:27 UTC

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 2:57:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>> Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 19:32:07 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 10:22:46 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
>>> > Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
>>> > only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
>>> > and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
>>> > Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
>>> > "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
>>> > and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
>>> > Isn't that weird?
>>> Not in the slightest. It's called regular sound change.
>>
>> But what were the odds that French and English both had
>> words that sounded alike for two notions as different as
>> charretière-carter and jarretière-garter, and that the only
>> phonetic difference in both cases was the (de)voicing
>> of their initial consonants? Next to zilch, if you ask me.
>
> The odds are enormous, since it's highly likely that English borrowed
> both words from French, as it did thousands of words beginning in
> 1066 (or maybe even before) and continuing to this day.

| carter [...]
| from Anglo-Norman careter (compare French charretier)

| garter [...]
| from Old Northern French gartier [...] Cognate with French jarretière.

(Wiktionary)

--
Trans people are scapegoated for the impossibilities of this two-box
system, but the system harms all of us. Most people have felt ashamed
of the ways we don't conform to whatever narrow idea of man or woman
has been prescribed onto our bodies -- H.P.Keenan in Slate

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Tue, 10 May 2022 14:03 UTC

Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 22:17:33 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 2:57:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 19:32:07 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 10:22:46 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
> > > > Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> > > > only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> > > > and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
> > > > Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> > > > "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> > > > and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
> > > > Isn't that weird?
> > > Not in the slightest. It's called regular sound change.
> >
> > But what were the odds that French and English both had
> > words that sounded alike for two notions as different as
> > charretière-carter and jarretière-garter, and that the only
> > phonetic difference in both cases was the (de)voicing
> > of their initial consonants? Next to zilch, if you ask me.
> The odds are enormous, since it's highly likely that English borrowed
> both words from French, as it did thousands of words beginning in
> 1066 (or maybe even before) and continuing to this day.

No, because that the _two_ words would be borrowed from
French in itself was highly unlikely (10% of all English words
are, which makes a probability of 1% for the two words) and
that they would then be subjected to the same sound change with
different consonants than in French was even more so. If "the odds
are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
pairs of words. Can you name just one?

>
> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
> other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
> your problem.

What has that to do with anything?

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 06:26:25 -0400
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 by: CDB - Wed, 11 May 2022 10:26 UTC

On 5/10/2022 10:03 AM, Bebercito wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> Bebercito wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>> Bebercito wrote:

>>>>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically
>>>>> differ only by their first consonants being respectively the
>>>>> unvoiced and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and
>>>>> [ʒ]. Now, the English counterparts of those two words,
>>>>> "carter" and "garter", have the same trait with different
>>>>> first consonants, i.e [k] and [g], where the former is the
>>>>> unvoiced form of the latter. Isn't that weird?
>>>> Not in the slightest. It's called regular sound change.

>>> But what were the odds that French and English both had words
>>> that sounded alike for two notions as different as
>>> charretière-carter and jarretière-garter, and that the only
>>> phonetic difference in both cases was the (de)voicing of their
>>> initial consonants? Next to zilch, if you ask me.
>> The odds are enormous, since it's highly likely that English
>> borrowed both words from French, as it did thousands of words
>> beginning in 1066 (or maybe even before) and continuing to this
>> day.

> No, because that the _two_ words would be borrowed from French in
> itself was highly unlikely (10% of all English words are, which makes
> a probability of 1% for the two words)

That seems to be far too low a figure. Perhaps you found an estimate of
the percentage of use of borrowed words instead of the percentage of
borrowed words in the English vocabulary; all those "the"s, "and"s, and
"are"s tend to mess up the proportions.

> and that they would then be subjected to the same sound change with
> different consonants than in French was even more so. If "the odds
> are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
> pairs of words. Can you name just one?

>> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to
>> each other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's
>> problem. It's your problem.

> What has that to do with anything?

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Ross Clark - Wed, 11 May 2022 11:45 UTC

On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 22:17:33 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 2:57:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>>> Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 19:32:07 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 10:22:46 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>>
>>>>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
>>>>> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
>>>>> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
>>>>> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
>>>>> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
>>>>> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
>>>>> Isn't that weird?
>>>> Not in the slightest. It's called regular sound change.
>>>
>>> But what were the odds that French and English both had
>>> words that sounded alike for two notions as different as
>>> charretière-carter and jarretière-garter, and that the only
>>> phonetic difference in both cases was the (de)voicing
>>> of their initial consonants? Next to zilch, if you ask me.
>> The odds are enormous, since it's highly likely that English borrowed
>> both words from French, as it did thousands of words beginning in
>> 1066 (or maybe even before) and continuing to this day.
>
> No, because that the _two_ words would be borrowed from
> French in itself was highly unlikely (10% of all English words
> are, which makes a probability of 1% for the two words)

This can't be right. If you really want to talk about a "probability" of
a French word being borrowed into English, you would have to divide the
number of words which have actually been borrowed by the total number of
words available. (Both figures likely to be fuzzy in the extreme.) Then
you could square that to get a "probability" of two given words both
being borrowed. But this assumes equi-probability of borrowing for all
words, which is certainly not the case.

and
> that they would then be subjected to the same sound change with
> different consonants than in French was even more so.

In fact it is the French words that have changed. And there is nothing
improbable in the changes of k- > ch- and g- > j- in the same
environment. It's typical regular sound change, which doesn't apply to
words here and there at random.

Now the relation between the French and English words is a little more
complicated than has been recognized here so far.

Old French has both gartier and jartier. Standard French continues the
latter, but English has borrowed from a dialect which has the former.
(The root is apparently Celtic *gar for a part of the leg.)

Charretier* could be directly related to carter, if English had borrowed
from a dialect with ca- corresponding to cha-; and Norman French would
be such a dialect (compare castle/chateau, catch/chase). However, carter
seems to appear earlier in English than chartier does in French, and OED
sees it as formed from cart + er in English (13th century). And "cart"
itself seems to be immediately from Old Norse kart-r. Quite possibly all
these words ultimately go back to Latin carrus or its Celtic antecedent,
but that's where I'll stop.

*You gave us charretière, but that would be a female cart-driver, no?

Oh by the way -- OED online is so full of stuff -- English did actually
borrow both charet(te) for the vehicle and chareter for the driver, from
Standard French, but neither survived into modern times.

If "the odds
> are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
> pairs of words. Can you name just one?

Why should there be dozens? And why should we have to search for them?
How long a list of French ch-/j- pairs do you have?

Summary: Yes, it's a coincidence, but not one I find of any linguistic
interest.

>>
>> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
>> other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
>> your problem.
>
> What has that to do with anything?
>

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:27 UTC

Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 13:45:26 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> > Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 22:17:33 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 2:57:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >>> Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 19:32:07 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 10:22:46 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> >>>>> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> >>>>> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
> >>>>> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> >>>>> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> >>>>> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
> >>>>> Isn't that weird?
> >>>> Not in the slightest. It's called regular sound change.
> >>>
> >>> But what were the odds that French and English both had
> >>> words that sounded alike for two notions as different as
> >>> charretière-carter and jarretière-garter, and that the only
> >>> phonetic difference in both cases was the (de)voicing
> >>> of their initial consonants? Next to zilch, if you ask me.
> >> The odds are enormous, since it's highly likely that English borrowed
> >> both words from French, as it did thousands of words beginning in
> >> 1066 (or maybe even before) and continuing to this day.
> >
> > No, because that the _two_ words would be borrowed from
> > French in itself was highly unlikely (10% of all English words
> > are, which makes a probability of 1% for the two words)
> This can't be right. If you really want to talk about a "probability" of
> a French word being borrowed into English, you would have to divide the
> number of words which have actually been borrowed by the total number of
> words available.

I suppose that's how the figure of 10% was obtained.

> (Both figures likely to be fuzzy in the extreme.)

Indeed.

> Then
> you could square that to get a "probability" of two given words both
> being borrowed.

Which I did.

> But this assumes equi-probability of borrowing for all
> words, which is certainly not the case.

Good point - I had overlooked that.

> and
> > that they would then be subjected to the same sound change with
> > different consonants than in French was even more so.
> In fact it is the French words that have changed. And there is nothing
> improbable in the changes of k- > ch- and g- > j- in the same
> environment. It's typical regular sound change, which doesn't apply to
> words here and there at random.
>
> Now the relation between the French and English words is a little more
> complicated than has been recognized here so far.
>
> Old French has both gartier and jartier. Standard French continues the
> latter, but English has borrowed from a dialect which has the former.
> (The root is apparently Celtic *gar for a part of the leg.)
>
> Charretier* could be directly related to carter, if English had borrowed
> from a dialect with ca- corresponding to cha-; and Norman French would
> be such a dialect (compare castle/chateau, catch/chase). However, carter
> seems to appear earlier in English than chartier does in French, and OED
> sees it as formed from cart + er in English (13th century). And "cart"
> itself seems to be immediately from Old Norse kart-r. Quite possibly all
> these words ultimately go back to Latin carrus or its Celtic antecedent,
> but that's where I'll stop.
>
> *You gave us charretière, but that would be a female cart-driver, no?

Yes, I deliberately chose the feminine for a closer match with
"jarretière".

>
> Oh by the way -- OED online is so full of stuff -- English did actually
> borrow both charet(te) for the vehicle and chareter for the driver, from
> Standard French, but neither survived into modern times.
> If "the odds
> > are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
> > pairs of words. Can you name just one?
> Why should there be dozens?

If the odds of something happening are high, shouldn't there exist
numerous instances of it?

> And why should we have to search for them?

Precisely to prove their postulated existence, in this case.
> How long a list of French ch-/j- pairs do you have?

There are hardly any others that I can think of, which makes
the coincidence with English greater.
>
> Summary: Yes, it's a coincidence, but not one I find of any linguistic
> interest.

Yet a stunning, arguably worth mentioning one IMO.

> >>
> >> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
> >> other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
> >> your problem.
> >
> > What has that to do with anything?
> >

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: snidely....@gmail.com (Snidely)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 18:26:43 -0700
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 by: Snidely - Thu, 12 May 2022 01:26 UTC

On Wednesday, Ross Clark pointed out that ...
> On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
>> Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 22:17:33 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :

>>> The odds are enormous, since it's highly likely that English borrowed
>>> both words from French, as it did thousands of words beginning in
>>> 1066 (or maybe even before) and continuing to this day.
>>
>> No, because that the _two_ words would be borrowed from
>> French in itself was highly unlikely (10% of all English words
>> are, which makes a probability of 1% for the two words)
>
> This can't be right. If you really want to talk about a "probability" of a
> French word being borrowed into English, you would have to divide the number
> of words which have actually been borrowed by the total number of words
> available. (Both figures likely to be fuzzy in the extreme.) Then you could
> square that to get a "probability" of two given words both being borrowed.
> But this assumes equi-probability of borrowing for all words, which is
> certainly not the case.

AIUI, the chances of a legal or business term being borrowed are
relatively high, while the slang of the carter and the butcher probably
was less often given legs.

/dps

--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 09:32:55 +0200
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32 UTC

On 2022-05-12 01:26:43 +0000, Snidely said:

> On Wednesday, Ross Clark pointed out that ...
>> On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
>>> Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 22:17:33 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>
>>>> The odds are enormous, since it's highly likely that English borrowed
>>>> both words from French, as it did thousands of words beginning in
>>>> 1066 (or maybe even before) and continuing to this day.
>>>
>>> No, because that the _two_ words would be borrowed from
>>> French in itself was highly unlikely (10% of all English words
>>> are, which makes a probability of 1% for the two words)
>>
>> This can't be right. If you really want to talk about a "probability"
>> of a French word being borrowed into English, you would have to divide
>> the number of words which have actually been borrowed by the total
>> number of words available. (Both figures likely to be fuzzy in the
>> extreme.) Then you could square that to get a "probability" of two
>> given words both being borrowed. But this assumes equi-probability of
>> borrowing for all words, which is certainly not the case.
>
> AIUI, the chances of a legal or business term being borrowed are
> relatively high, while the slang of the carter and the butcher probably
> was less often given legs.

There are considerable variations even between British and American
English. Words relating to cars (boot/trunk ...) and babies
(diaper/nappy ...) are often different; words in other contexts are
usually the same.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 12 May 2022 15:08 UTC

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:27:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 13:45:26 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> > On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:

> > Oh by the way -- OED online is so full of stuff -- English did actually
> > borrow both charet(te) for the vehicle and chareter for the driver, from
> > Standard French, but neither survived into modern times.
> > If "the odds
> > > are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
> > > pairs of words. Can you name just one?
> > Why should there be dozens?
>
> If the odds of something happening are high, shouldn't there exist
> numerous instances of it?

How do you know there aren't?

> > And why should we have to search for them?
>
> Precisely to prove their postulated existence, in this case.

But ... who cares??? It's just now language contact works.

> > How long a list of French ch-/j- pairs do you have?
>
> There are hardly any others that I can think of, which makes
> the coincidence with English greater.

Nonsense. It makes the regular relationship with English jusr
about inevitable.
> > Summary: Yes, it's a coincidence, but not one I find of any linguistic
> > interest.
>
> Yet a stunning, arguably worth mentioning one IMO.

There is nothing "stunning" about it at all.

[me:]
> > >> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
> > >> other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
> > >> your problem.
> > > What has that to do with anything?

You're barking up a very wrong tree.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Ken Blake - Thu, 12 May 2022 15:47 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 09:32:55 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2022-05-12 01:26:43 +0000, Snidely said:
>
>> On Wednesday, Ross Clark pointed out that ...
>>> On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
>>>> Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 22:17:33 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>
>>>>> The odds are enormous, since it's highly likely that English borrowed
>>>>> both words from French, as it did thousands of words beginning in
>>>>> 1066 (or maybe even before) and continuing to this day.
>>>>
>>>> No, because that the _two_ words would be borrowed from
>>>> French in itself was highly unlikely (10% of all English words
>>>> are, which makes a probability of 1% for the two words)
>>>
>>> This can't be right. If you really want to talk about a "probability"
>>> of a French word being borrowed into English, you would have to divide
>>> the number of words which have actually been borrowed by the total
>>> number of words available. (Both figures likely to be fuzzy in the
>>> extreme.) Then you could square that to get a "probability" of two
>>> given words both being borrowed. But this assumes equi-probability of
>>> borrowing for all words, which is certainly not the case.
>>
>> AIUI, the chances of a legal or business term being borrowed are
>> relatively high, while the slang of the carter and the butcher probably
>> was less often given legs.
>
>There are considerable variations even between British and American
>English.

Many people say much the same thing; some even say they are two
different languages.

I disagree. Yes, there are some variations, but far from
"considerable." There's an occasional BrE word used here that I don't
understand, but very few.

To me the bigger difference between AmE and BrE is in pronunciation,
and even that varies with the part of the US or UK. I think I
mentioned here before that when I saw the movie "The Full Monty," I
could understand only every third word (and that word was "fook").

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Thu, 12 May 2022 16:01 UTC

Le jeudi 12 mai 2022 à 17:08:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:27:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 13:45:26 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> > > On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
>
> > > Oh by the way -- OED online is so full of stuff -- English did actually
> > > borrow both charet(te) for the vehicle and chareter for the driver, from
> > > Standard French, but neither survived into modern times.
> > > If "the odds
> > > > are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
> > > > pairs of words. Can you name just one?
> > > Why should there be dozens?
> >
> > If the odds of something happening are high, shouldn't there exist
> > numerous instances of it?
> How do you know there aren't?

Again, name them.

> > > And why should we have to search for them?
> >
> > Precisely to prove their postulated existence, in this case.

> But ... who cares???

This topic is about what I deem to be a rare, improbable occurrence.
Providing examples showing that it's actually common would
therefore seem quite relevant to prove me wrong, as you intend
to.

> It's just now language contact works.

> > > How long a list of French ch-/j- pairs do you have?
> >
> > There are hardly any others that I can think of, which makes
> > the coincidence with English greater.
> Nonsense. It makes the regular relationship with English jusr
> about inevitable.

Wrong, that's basic statistics. The more such pairs of words in
French, the greater the odds of having matches in English.
In this case, I can think of only one pair, and you haven't
been able to find others.

> > > Summary: Yes, it's a coincidence, but not one I find of any linguistic
> > > interest.
> >
> > Yet a stunning, arguably worth mentioning one IMO.
> There is nothing "stunning" about it at all.
>
> [me:]
> > > >> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
> > > >> other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
> > > >> your problem.
> > > > What has that to do with anything?
> You're barking up a very wrong tree.

?

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 12 May 2022 16:34 UTC

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:02:02 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le jeudi 12 mai 2022 à 17:08:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:27:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 13:45:26 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> > > > On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> > > > Oh by the way -- OED online is so full of stuff -- English did actually
> > > > borrow both charet(te) for the vehicle and chareter for the driver, from
> > > > Standard French, but neither survived into modern times.
> > > > If "the odds
> > > > > are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
> > > > > pairs of words. Can you name just one?
> > > > Why should there be dozens?
> > > If the odds of something happening are high, shouldn't there exist
> > > numerous instances of it?
> > How do you know there aren't?
> Again, name them.
> > > > And why should we have to search for them?
> > > Precisely to prove their postulated existence, in this case.
> > But ... who cares???
>
> This topic is about what I deem to be a rare, improbable occurrence.
> Providing examples showing that it's actually common would
> therefore seem quite relevant to prove me wrong, as you intend
> to.

What, EXACTLY, do you think is a "rare improbable occurrence"?

That when similar-sounding words are borrowed, the result is
similar-sounding words?

> > It's just now language contact works.
> > > > How long a list of French ch-/j- pairs do you have?
> > > There are hardly any others that I can think of, which makes
> > > the coincidence with English greater.
> > Nonsense. It makes the regular relationship with English just
> > about inevitable.
>
> Wrong, that's basic statistics. The more such pairs of words in
> French, the greater the odds of having matches in English.
> In this case, I can think of only one pair, and you haven't
> been able to find others.

One pair of WHAT? I have no idea what you think is so unusual.

> > > > Summary: Yes, it's a coincidence, but not one I find of any linguistic
> > > > interest.
> > > Yet a stunning, arguably worth mentioning one IMO.
> > There is nothing "stunning" about it at all.
> > [me:]
> > > > >> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
> > > > >> other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
> > > > >> your problem.
> > > > > What has that to do with anything?
> > You're barking up a very wrong tree.
>
> ?

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 12:39:44 +1200
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 by: Ross Clark - Fri, 13 May 2022 00:39 UTC

On 13/05/2022 4:01 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> Le jeudi 12 mai 2022 à 17:08:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:27:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>>> Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 13:45:26 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
>>>> On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
>>
>>>> Oh by the way -- OED online is so full of stuff -- English did actually
>>>> borrow both charet(te) for the vehicle and chareter for the driver, from
>>>> Standard French, but neither survived into modern times.
>>>> If "the odds
>>>>> are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
>>>>> pairs of words. Can you name just one?
>>>> Why should there be dozens?
>>>
>>> If the odds of something happening are high, shouldn't there exist
>>> numerous instances of it?
>> How do you know there aren't?
>
> Again, name them.
>
>>>> And why should we have to search for them?
>>>
>>> Precisely to prove their postulated existence, in this case.
>
>> But ... who cares???
>
> This topic is about what I deem to be a rare, improbable occurrence.

You are working with a very strange concept of "probability".
What is the probability of the French word for dog being "chien"?
Why, it must be hugely improbable -- just think of all the other forms
it might have had! One in a million, surely. Or what about the amazing
fact that "god" is "dog" spelled backwards?

The world is full of extremely "improbable" things like that, whose
improbability is of no interest. They are just facts.

You start with another fact - that the words for "female cart-driver"
and "garter" in French are distinguished only by their initial
consonants -- and in fact just by the feature of voice. Nothing
remarkable in that -- there are lots of minimal pairs in French.
(jarre/carre, jase/case took me about a minute to find in a dictionary,
without straying very far from your example).

But now you find that the words "carter" and "garter" in English are
also a minimal pair, and distinguished by the feature of voice.
If you had found such a corresponding pair in Mongolian or Walbiri, it
would have been a genuine coincidence -- but no more than amusing.
Nothing would follow from it.

But here we're talking about English and French, and (as has been
pointed out) the similarity of form between the two pairs of words, and
the phonological contrast in each pair, is _not_ coincidental. The words
are in fact historically related, and come from roots -- respectively
*kar and *gar -- distinguished by the feature of voice! The initial
consonants have been preserved in the English words, and subject to
regular sound change in the French (still preserving the voice
contrast). Nothing to do with coincidence.

> Providing examples showing that it's actually common would
> therefore seem quite relevant to prove me wrong, as you intend
> to.

How many examples there are is of no more interest than the one example
we have.

>
>> It's just now language contact works.
>
>>>> How long a list of French ch-/j- pairs do you have?
>>>
>>> There are hardly any others that I can think of, which makes
>>> the coincidence with English greater.
>> Nonsense. It makes the regular relationship with English jusr
>> about inevitable.
>
> Wrong, that's basic statistics. The more such pairs of words in
> French, the greater the odds of having matches in English.
> In this case, I can think of only one pair, and you haven't
> been able to find others.
>
>>>> Summary: Yes, it's a coincidence, but not one I find of any linguistic
>>>> interest.
>>>
>>> Yet a stunning, arguably worth mentioning one IMO.
>> There is nothing "stunning" about it at all.
>>
>> [me:]
>>>>>> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
>>>>>> other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
>>>>>> your problem.
>>>>> What has that to do with anything?
>> You're barking up a very wrong tree.
>
> ?
>

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: snidely....@gmail.com (Snidely)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 18:27:23 -0700
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 by: Snidely - Fri, 13 May 2022 01:27 UTC

Ken Blake wrote on 5/12/2022 :
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 09:32:55 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-05-12 01:26:43 +0000, Snidely said:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, Ross Clark pointed out that ...
>>>> On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
>>>>> Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 22:17:33 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>>>> The odds are enormous, since it's highly likely that English borrowed
>>>>>> both words from French, as it did thousands of words beginning in
>>>>>> 1066 (or maybe even before) and continuing to this day.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, because that the _two_ words would be borrowed from
>>>>> French in itself was highly unlikely (10% of all English words
>>>>> are, which makes a probability of 1% for the two words)
>>>>
>>>> This can't be right. If you really want to talk about a "probability"
>>>> of a French word being borrowed into English, you would have to divide
>>>> the number of words which have actually been borrowed by the total
>>>> number of words available. (Both figures likely to be fuzzy in the
>>>> extreme.) Then you could square that to get a "probability" of two
>>>> given words both being borrowed. But this assumes equi-probability of
>>>> borrowing for all words, which is certainly not the case.
>>>
>>> AIUI, the chances of a legal or business term being borrowed are
>>> relatively high, while the slang of the carter and the butcher probably
>>> was less often given legs.
>>
>> There are considerable variations even between British and American
>> English.
>
> Many people say much the same thing; some even say they are two
> different languages.
>
> I disagree. Yes, there are some variations, but far from
> "considerable." There's an occasional BrE word used here that I don't
> understand, but very few.
>
> To me the bigger difference between AmE and BrE is in pronunciation,
> and even that varies with the part of the US or UK. I think I
> mentioned here before that when I saw the movie "The Full Monty," I
> could understand only every third word (and that word was "fook").

I've been watching various ootewbs and the occasional pronunciation
difference can stand out for me.

One of the Tewbers is an educated Brit (in fact, PhD astrophysics) who
says "distr BEWT" (emm fassis on the last sill labble) compared to my
"dis TRIB bewt". I think our "distr BEWT shun" matches rather.

Another tewber is a [further research needed, but unlikely to be
American] who names the engine [and car] manufacturer as "pack CARD" vs
my "PACK urd", although the quality of the 'a' in "pack" and "PACK"
seems to match.

/dps

--
And the Raiders and the Broncos have life now in the West. I thought
they were both nearly dead if not quite really most sincerely dead. --
Mike Salfino, fivethirtyeight.com

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<407bad16-686c-4349-8a66-a74f8b2d5aa6n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: ranjit_m...@yahoo.com (Dingbat)
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 by: Dingbat - Fri, 13 May 2022 05:08 UTC

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-7, Bebercito wrote:
> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
>
> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
>
> Isn't that weird?

Not if they came from those French words.

This is a curious coincidence:
English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY have the same two meanings:
1) Beloved
2) Expensive

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Snidely - Fri, 13 May 2022 06:09 UTC

Remember when Snidely bragged outrageously? That was Thursday:
> Ken Blake wrote on 5/12/2022 :
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 09:32:55 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-12 01:26:43 +0000, Snidely said:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, Ross Clark pointed out that ...
>>>>> On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
>>>>>> Le lundi 9 mai 2022 à 22:17:33 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>>>>> The odds are enormous, since it's highly likely that English borrowed
>>>>>>> both words from French, as it did thousands of words beginning in
>>>>>>> 1066 (or maybe even before) and continuing to this day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, because that the _two_ words would be borrowed from
>>>>>> French in itself was highly unlikely (10% of all English words
>>>>>> are, which makes a probability of 1% for the two words)
>>>>>
>>>>> This can't be right. If you really want to talk about a "probability" of
>>>>> a French word being borrowed into English, you would have to divide the
>>>>> number of words which have actually been borrowed by the total number of
>>>>> words available. (Both figures likely to be fuzzy in the extreme.) Then
>>>>> you could square that to get a "probability" of two given words both
>>>>> being borrowed. But this assumes equi-probability of borrowing for all
>>>>> words, which is certainly not the case.
>>>>
>>>> AIUI, the chances of a legal or business term being borrowed are
>>>> relatively high, while the slang of the carter and the butcher probably
>>>> was less often given legs.
>>>
>>> There are considerable variations even between British and American
>>> English.
>>
>> Many people say much the same thing; some even say they are two
>> different languages.
>>
>> I disagree. Yes, there are some variations, but far from
>> "considerable." There's an occasional BrE word used here that I don't
>> understand, but very few.
>>
>> To me the bigger difference between AmE and BrE is in pronunciation,
>> and even that varies with the part of the US or UK. I think I
>> mentioned here before that when I saw the movie "The Full Monty," I
>> could understand only every third word (and that word was "fook").
>
> I've been watching various ootewbs and the occasional pronunciation
> difference can stand out for me.
>
> One of the Tewbers is an educated Brit (in fact, PhD astrophysics) who says
> "distr BEWT" (emm fassis on the last sill labble) compared to my "dis TRIB
> bewt". I think our "distr BEWT shun" matches rather.
>
> Another tewber is a [further research needed, but unlikely to be American]
> who names the engine [and car] manufacturer as "pack CARD" vs my "PACK urd",
> although the quality of the 'a' in "pack" and "PACK" seems to match.

The second, in yet another narration, described an officer as an "n
SIGN", but another pair of officers as "ensuns".

/dps

--
You could try being nicer and politer
> instead, and see how that works out.
-- Katy Jennison

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Silvano - Fri, 13 May 2022 09:33 UTC

Dingbat hat am 13.05.2022 um 07:08 geschrieben:
> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-7, Bebercito wrote:
>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
>> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
>> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
>>
>> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
>> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
>> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
>>
>> Isn't that weird?
>
> Not if they came from those French words.
>
> This is a curious coincidence:
> English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY have the same two meanings:
> 1) Beloved
> 2) Expensive

The same is true for the Italian CARO and, if my dictionaries are
correct, for the Spanish and Portuguese CARO as well as for the French CHER.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 20:44:33 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 13 May 2022 10:44 UTC

On 13/05/22 19:33, Silvano wrote:
> Dingbat hat am 13.05.2022 um 07:08 geschrieben:
>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-7, Bebercito wrote:
>>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
>>> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
>>> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
>>>
>>> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
>>> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
>>> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
>>>
>>> Isn't that weird?
>>
>> Not if they came from those French words.
>>
>> This is a curious coincidence:
>> English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY have the same two meanings:
>> 1) Beloved
>> 2) Expensive
>
> The same is true for the Italian CARO and, if my dictionaries are
> correct, for the Spanish and Portuguese CARO as well as for the French CHER.

Meanwhile, Portuguese "obrigado" has the same meaning as Japanese "arigato".

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: charles - Fri, 13 May 2022 10:56 UTC

In article <t5l8ln$ghl$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> Dingbat hat am 13.05.2022 um 07:08 geschrieben:
> > On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-7, Bebercito wrote:
> >> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> >> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> >> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [#] and [#].
> >>
> >> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> >> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> >> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
> >>
> >> Isn't that weird?
> >
> > Not if they came from those French words.
> >
> > This is a curious coincidence:
> > English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY have the same two meanings:
> > 1) Beloved
> > 2) Expensive

> The same is true for the Italian CARO and, if my dictionaries are
> correct, for the Spanish and Portuguese CARO as well as for the French CHER.

It's always possible that having a beloved is expensive.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t5lhe6$cu3$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 08:03:15 -0400
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 by: CDB - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:03 UTC

On 5/12/2022 9:27 PM, Snidely wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote on 5/12/2022 :
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>> Snidely said:
>>>> Ross Clark pointed out that:

[carters and garters]

>>> There are considerable variations even between British and
>>> American English.

>> Many people say much the same thing; some even say they are two
>> different languages.

>> I disagree. Yes, there are some variations, but far from
>> "considerable." There's an occasional BrE word used here that I
>> don't understand, but very few.

>> To me the bigger difference between AmE and BrE is in
>> pronunciation, and even that varies with the part of the US or UK.
>> I think I mentioned here before that when I saw the movie "The Full
>> Monty," I could understand only every third word (and that word was
>> "fook").

> I've been watching various ootewbs and the occasional pronunciation
> difference can stand out for me.

> One of the Tewbers is an educated Brit (in fact, PhD astrophysics)
> who says "distr BEWT" (emm fassis on the last sill labble) compared
> to my "dis TRIB bewt". I think our "distr BEWT shun" matches
> rather.

> Another tewber is a [further research needed, but unlikely to be
> American] who names the engine [and car] manufacturer as "pack CARD"
> vs my "PACK urd", although the quality of the 'a' in "pack" and
> "PACK" seems to match.

Primary stress on the first syllable and secondary stress on the last
would be a common BrE pattern: ['g&,rA:Z], ['m&,lA:d]; ['p&,kA:d]?

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