On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 5:56:34 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 12/05/2022 6:27 am, Hibou wrote:

> > In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people
> > knew French, in Britain at least;

> The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.

No, you all study it. (Really?) Whether you learn it is a quite different matter.

On Thu, 12 May 2022 08:54:27 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:12:57 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 19:32:24 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> >> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
>> >> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
>> >> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
>> >> name professionally.
>> >You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
>> >not?
>>
>> No. When a woman marries in the US there's no legal reason for her to
>> adopt her husband's last name or to retain her own last name.
>>
>> I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is used to mean "what's on
>> record". A woman can legally change her name
>
>In Florida?

Yes. Dunno about New Jersey. Is it different there?

>> by getting a new
>> driver's license using her married name, because - for many purposes -
>> that's what's now on record. She can also change her last name by
>> notifying the Social Security Administration. She can also change
>> her name on bank accounts, credit cards, and that sort of thing. She
>> can change her last name with her employer so future paychecks bear
>> her new name.
>
>You've mingled together at least two levels of administration.

Yes. In our daily lives we often "mingle" two or more levels of
administration. I am sometimes required use my federal Social
Security number as a means of identification. I have a driver's
license issued by the State of Florida. When I vote, I do so at a
Seminole County designated polling site.

Is that not true for you, too?

Why is it deserving of comment?
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On 12/05/2022 5:00 pm, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2022-05-12 03:56, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 12/05/2022 6:27 am, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 11/05/2022 à 17:40, Ken Blake a écrit :
>>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 22:35:18 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>>>>
>>>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for
>>>>> gender is
>>>>> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for
>>>>> gender in BrE.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very
>>>> rarely does
>>>> these days.
>>>>
>>>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.
>>>
>>> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated
>>> people knew French, in Britain at least;
>>
>> The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.
>
> Is that true in the UK?

No, of course not. I said "all", which makes it a generalisation,
and all generalisations are false.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

On 12-May-22 10:05, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 18:19:53 -0700
> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> After serious thinking Sam Plusnet wrote :
>>> On 11-May-22 11:09, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 11/05/22 19:30, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-05-11, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it's not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh yes it is.
>>>>
>>>> Behind you!
>>>
>>> Leave my behind out of this.
>>
>> He's apt to give you a bum steer.
>>
>> /dps "or a welfare queen cow"
>>
> Better than a poke in a pig.
>
Unwise, and illegal in many countries.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 2:11:31 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 08:54:27 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:12:57 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Wed, 11 May 2022 19:32:24 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >> >> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
> >> >> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
> >> >> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
> >> >> name professionally.
> >> >You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
> >> >not?
> >> No. When a woman marries in the US there's no legal reason for her to
> >> adopt her husband's last name or to retain her own last name.
> >> I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is used to mean "what's on
> >> record". A woman can legally change her name
> >In Florida?
>
> Yes. Dunno about New Jersey. Is it different there?

Probably. It's different in New York.

But as usual, you assert that what holds in Florida is how it is done
"in the US."

> >> by getting a new
> >> driver's license using her married name, because - for many purposes -
> >> that's what's now on record. She can also change her last name by
> >> notifying the Social Security Administration. She can also change
> >> her name on bank accounts, credit cards, and that sort of thing. She
> >> can change her last name with her employer so future paychecks bear
> >> her new name.
> >You've mingled together at least two levels of administration.
>
> Yes. In our daily lives we often "mingle" two or more levels of
> administration.

No, we don't.

In our daily lives we do not often, or sometimes ever, legally change
our name.

> I am sometimes required use my federal Social
> Security number as a means of identification.

That is illegal. It says so right on your Social Security card.

> I have a driver's
> license issued by the State of Florida. When I vote, I do so at a
> Seminole County designated polling site.
>
> Is that not true for you, too?

I have never been in Seminole County, Florida, but I have many
times written here that no one in New Jersey (or New York or
Illinois) is required to produce any sort of identification document
at the polling place. One simply signs the book.

> Why is it deserving of comment?

Because, as so often, you have made assertions based on local
conditions falsely claiming them to be valid throughout the country.
> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And misinformation.

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 5:05:34 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 18:19:53 -0700
> Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > After serious thinking Sam Plusnet wrote :
> > > On 11-May-22 11:09, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > >> On 11/05/22 19:30, Adam Funk wrote:
> > >>> On 2022-05-11, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > >>>> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
> > >
> > >>>>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> No, it's not.
> > >>>
> > >>> Oh yes it is.
> > >>
> > >> Behind you!
> > >
> > > Leave my behind out of this.
> >
> > He's apt to give you a bum steer.
> >
> > /dps "or a welfare queen cow"
>
> Better than a poke in a pig.
> --
> Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Is that what you are?

On Thu, 12 May 2022 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 2:11:31 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 08:54:27 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:12:57 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 11 May 2022 19:32:24 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> >> >> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
>> >> >> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
>> >> >> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
>> >> >> name professionally.
>> >> >You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
>> >> >not?
>> >> No. When a woman marries in the US there's no legal reason for her to
>> >> adopt her husband's last name or to retain her own last name.
>> >> I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is used to mean "what's on
>> >> record". A woman can legally change her name
>> >In Florida?
>>
>> Yes. Dunno about New Jersey. Is it different there?
>
>Probably. It's different in New York.
>
>But as usual, you assert that what holds in Florida is how it is done
>"in the US."

There is nothing in what I wrote that pertains only to Florida,
specific to Florida, or is not possible in any state in the US.

>> >> by getting a new
>> >> driver's license using her married name, because - for many purposes -
>> >> that's what's now on record. She can also change her last name by
>> >> notifying the Social Security Administration. She can also change
>> >> her name on bank accounts, credit cards, and that sort of thing. She
>> >> can change her last name with her employer so future paychecks bear
>> >> her new name.
>> >You've mingled together at least two levels of administration.
>>
>> Yes. In our daily lives we often "mingle" two or more levels of
>> administration.
>
>No, we don't.
>
>In our daily lives we do not often, or sometimes ever, legally change
>our name.
>
>> I am sometimes required use my federal Social
>> Security number as a means of identification.
>
>That is illegal. It says so right on your Social Security card.
>
>> I have a driver's
>> license issued by the State of Florida. When I vote, I do so at a
>> Seminole County designated polling site.
>>
>> Is that not true for you, too?
>
>I have never been in Seminole County, Florida, but I have many
>times written here that no one in New Jersey (or New York or
>Illinois) is required to produce any sort of identification document
>at the polling place. One simply signs the book.

What? I didn't say anything about ID at the voting site.

>
>> Why is it deserving of comment?
>
>Because, as so often, you have made assertions based on local
>conditions falsely claiming them to be valid throughout the country.

All all valid in the entire US.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

In message <qd7q7hh5f8voqcj44pgipq7tajjj4h4sub@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 09:51:03 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:

>>On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 19:32:24 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:45:54 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
>>>>>><lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>* Adam Funk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * Lewis:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>>>>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>>>>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>>>>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>>>>>>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>>>>>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>>>>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>>>>>>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>>>>>>>> just that it isn't the default?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>>>>>>>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>>>>>>>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>>>>>>>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>>>>>>>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>>>>>>>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>>>>>>>your married name as an addendum".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>>>>>>husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>>>>>>professionally known by their birth name.
>>>>>
>>>>> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
>>>>> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
>>>>> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
>>>>> name professionally.
>>>>
>>>>You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
>>>>not?
>>>>
>>> No. When a woman marries in the US there's no legal reason for her to
>>> adopt her husband's last name or to retain her own last name.
>>>
>>> I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is used to mean "what's on
>>> record". A woman can legally change her name by getting a new
>>
>>Can but not must --- that's what I thought. I wondered if you meant
>>Florida had some weird law about it.

> An understandable mistake. If there's a law that unfairly restricts
> or controls the rights of any group, look for Florida or Texas as the
> source.

> While not a problem over taking the husband's last name, the worst
> experience my wife had as a second-class citizen was in Illinois in
> the 1970s.

> We were living in Florida, and my wife had flown to Illinois for a
> family member's funeral. She flew from Orlando to O'Hare airport in
> Chicago where she was to rent a car and drive to Rockford IL.

> She had a credit card, but it bore only my name. She'd been using the
> card for some time without a problem, but Hertz (and the other rental
> car firms) would only accept a credit card that showed the renter's
> name. No one would rent her a car.

Interesting. It wasn't until sometime in the 1970s that most banks would
even allow women to have checking accounts without their husband's
permission, I'm surprised any credit card companies were issuing credit
cards in women's names at all.

My step-mother had trouble getting a bank account in c. 1972 in
California without her husband even though she was divorced and had fled
the country he lived in. Most the banks simply would not even talk to
her.

I would not be at all surprised if the rental car companies had a
specific policy of trying not to rent cars to "women drivers" or
perhaps some other idiotic reason and the credit card thing was a
simply a way of making the process as inconvenient as possible to
discourage the practice.

> She was delayed for several hours and built up enough steam to power a
> locomotive. Typically, she blamed me even though it was common in
> those days for credit card companies to issue cards only in one name,
> and for those cards to be accepted without question everywhere else.

Even when I was old enough to be working (mid to late 80s) it was common
for a woman to have a credit card in her husbands name, because I
remember thinking it was strange, but I was told it was normal and that
we definitely accepted the cards.

--
Personal isn't the same as important. What sort of person could think
like that? And it dawned on him that while Ankh in the past had
had its share of evil rulers, and simply bad rulers, it had never
yet come under the heel of a good ruler. That might be the most
terrifying prospect of all. --Men at Arms

On Thu, 12 May 2022 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>> I am sometimes required use my federal Social
>> Security number as a means of identification.
>
>That is illegal. It says so right on your Social Security card.

That is not true. The *card* is not a legal means of identification,
but the *number* is. You must provide that number to open a bank or
brokerage account, for example. You provide that number to your
employer. You may be asked to identify yourself by providing your
social security number at a bank or brokerage.

At one time, cards were issued with "For Social Security and Tax
Purposes - Not for Identification" printed on the face, but that's not
done now. The last card that contained this was the 9-61 card style.
That line pertained to the card, not the number, but the current SS
cards don't have that line.

Or, do you think that banks ask for illegal information?

So, you are not only wrong in fact, but you have made an incorrect
generalization. Tut, tut, dear boy.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

* lar3ryca:

> On 2022-05-12 03:56, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 12/05/2022 6:27 am, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 11/05/2022 à 17:40, Ken Blake a écrit :
>>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 22:35:18 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>>>>
>>>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>>>>> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender
>>>>> in BrE.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely does
>>>> these days.
>>>>
>>>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.
>>>
>>> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people knew
>>> French, in Britain at least;
>>
>> The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.
>
> Is that true in the UK?
>
> In Canada, when I went to school, a language (foreign of course) was
> mandatory only for those on an academic path, leading to university
> acceptance. The language could be chosen from any that were offered.
>
> I had the choice of French or Latin at the high school nearest me (it
> was about 5 blocks from my home). I did not want to take either of them,
> Latin being (in my opinion) useless, and French being, well, French.

You didn't have to learn French anyway? Now I wonder when that started.

It's not a foreign language in my book. It's "the other official
language".

My contact with the Canadian school system obviously only started after
coming here in 2002. Within that experience, all children learn the
other official language from first grade, if not kindergarten. Here in
Montreal, most have contact with it in day-care or on the street even
before that.

But people from other provinces I've talked to about that all had French
in school, too, often if not always from grade one. Pretty much all of
these were my age or younger, though, so schooled in the 1970s or later.
And they're people who were living in Quebec at least temporarily, to
qualify my sample.

--
If women could save heterosexuality and make it healthy on their own,
they would have done it by now, 'cause they are trying.
-- Moira Donegan on The Feminist Present

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:48:15 AM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
>> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>> says...
>>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>> > In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>> > <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>> > It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the
>>> > word is née and wtf is né?
>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née is
>>> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although the
>>> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and sometimes
>>> without the acute accent.
>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>> writing the accent.
>>
>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>>
>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>
> An awful lot of masseurs are being called masseuses these days.
> (In TV scripts.)

Oh yeah? I just noticed it the first time this week, but because it was
Family Guy, I thought they're just having fun.

In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German feminine
form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines whether it's a
medical massage service or the other kind.

--
They spend so much time fussing about my identity
that I really shouldn't have to bother with it
myself at all.
-- Margaret Atwood, The Edible Woman, p.223

* Lewis:

> In message <2qjyh5ie20kw$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> * Ken Blake:
>
>>> I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>>> husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>>> professionally known by their birth name.
>
>> That you even say it this way dates you.
>
> Not at all.
>
>> For more and more younger people, there isn't even a "default way" and
>> "the exception" any more, but a range of possibilities what two people
>> could do with their names if they marry.
>
> This is just not true. It is still the case that the vast majority of
> women change their last names when they marry. Sometimes several times
> if they go through several husbands. The ones who do not are more common
> than they were, but are still a small percentage

I tried to find some numbers, first for Germany, to give substance to
this discussion. So a few years ago in Germany, 12% of people who
married kept each their own name, and 6% declared the wife's name as
common. There was no numbers about how many of the 82% of women who took
their husband's name and 6% of men who took their wife's also kept their
own additionally, and of course even less about which name they use how
often in this case.

I found this number surprisingly low. In a big city, 20% of couples were
reported to each keep their name, and I still find this low. Zurich in
Switzerland reports a rate of 40%. We can assume that the rate is again
higher with more educated people, further skewing my outlook. I mean, I
knew several women in Japan (ca. 2000), women working in academia, who
kept using their name professionally, where the Japanese system is much
more rigid and completely doesn't allow a woman to do this legally. Not
only that, but she becomes an entry in her husband's family register
rather than being an entity of her own.

I guess that among my family and friends, women taking their husband's
name was only just a majority, and many of these kept their own as well,
in a double surname. And I'm talking about the 1990s here, when I was
still living in Germany, so I'd expect more "non-traditionalists" if I
was 30 years younger. I've also had regular contact with people from
cultures where changing names upon marriage isn't traditional in the
first place, like Spain, Korea and Vietnam.

I'm going to collect some numbers from other places.

Another aspect the Zurich numbers mentioned is that the rate of keeping
your name increases with age - twenty-some percent among people marrying
in their 20s, but 60% with people 45 and older.

In any case, I wouldn't report "I know some women who kept their name
upon marriage" as noteworthy. It's not to me. I do occasionally mention
that within a short time span, three men in my circle married and took
their wife's name. That's unusual enough to justify making it an
anecdote, and was more so in the 90s.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

* Stefan Ram:

> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>>The book then explains that the name used does not have
>>to match the name from the official ID card.
>
> In Germany, the name from the official ID card must be
> disclosed only to the police, a court or a state authority
> after a formal request to do so.

That may be true, but in practice, there's a number of services you
won't be able to access without showing official ID.

--
I don't see people ... as having a right to be idiots. It's
just impractical to try to stop them, unless they're hurting
somebody. -- Vicereine Cordelia
in L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen

* CDB:

> On 5/12/2022 1:27 AM, Hibou wrote:
>> Ken Blake a écrit :
>>> Peter Moylan
>
>>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender
>>>> is blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for
>>>> gender in BrE.
>
>>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely
>>> does these days.
>
>>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.
>
>> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people
>> knew French, in Britain at least; it was, after all, the
>> international language. There are, for example, short untranslated
>> passages of French in Charlotte Brontë's 'The Professor' (1857):
>
>> "A servant here entered:- "'Mdlle. Henri - Mdlle. Reuter vous prie de
>> vouloir bien conduire la petite de Dorlodot chez elle, elle vous
>> attend dans le cabinet de Rosalie la portiere - c'est que sa bonne
>> n'est pas venue la chercher - voyez-vous.' "'Eh bien! est-ce que je
>> suis sa bonne - moi?' demanded Mdlle. Henri; then smiling, with that
>> same bitter, derisive smile I had seen on her lips once before, she
>> hastily rose and made her exit."
>
>> And again:
>
>> "'Que le dedain lui sied bien!' I once overheard her say to her
>> mother: 'il est beau comme Apollon quand il sourit de son air
>> hautain.'" "... 'Pour moi,' she continued, 'il me fait tout l'effet
>> d’un chat-huant, avec ses besicles.'"
>
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1028/1028-h/1028-h.htm>
>
>> I don't think an author would expect readers to understand such
>> passages nowadays.
>
> One who knew me, anyway.
>
> Atilf to the rescue: a kind of owl; anciennes grosses lunettes.

Thanks.

I was able to guess the meaning of "sied" from context, but not the
infinitive.

--
Never trust ale from a god-fearing people.
-- Quark

On Thu, 12 May 2022 21:17:01 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>> She had a credit card, but it bore only my name. She'd been using the
>> card for some time without a problem, but Hertz (and the other rental
>> car firms) would only accept a credit card that showed the renter's
>> name. No one would rent her a car.
>
>Interesting. It wasn't until sometime in the 1970s that most banks would
>even allow women to have checking accounts without their husband's
>permission, I'm surprised any credit card companies were issuing credit
>cards in women's names at all.

I know for a fact that banks in Florida opened checking accounts for
married women without their husband's permission in 1972.

We moved to Florida in July, 1972. My job required travel, and I had
to go on the road right away. My wife opened a checking account under
both our names. I had to go in a few weeks later and fill out a
signature card.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Thu, 12 May 2022, at 15:26:08, Peter Moylan posted:
>On 12/05/22 15:11, Lewis wrote:
>
>> Anybody who tells me what happens to me after I'm dead is either a
>> liar or a fool because they DON'T KNOW
>
>I believe I know. Cremation.
>
That raises an interesting question. What is "me" after "I" am dead? A
drift of smoke in other people's memories, perhaps. But not smoke from
any crematorium.
--
Paul

On 2022-05-12 15:45, Quinn C wrote:
> * lar3ryca:
>
>> On 2022-05-12 03:56, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 12/05/2022 6:27 am, Hibou wrote:
>>>> Le 11/05/2022 à 17:40, Ken Blake a écrit :
>>>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 22:35:18 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>>>>>> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender
>>>>>> in BrE.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely does
>>>>> these days.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.
>>>>
>>>> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people knew
>>>> French, in Britain at least;
>>>
>>> The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.
>>
>> Is that true in the UK?
>>
>> In Canada, when I went to school, a language (foreign of course) was
>> mandatory only for those on an academic path, leading to university
>> acceptance. The language could be chosen from any that were offered.
>>
>> I had the choice of French or Latin at the high school nearest me (it
>> was about 5 blocks from my home). I did not want to take either of them,
>> Latin being (in my opinion) useless, and French being, well, French.
>
> You didn't have to learn French anyway? Now I wonder when that started.

Certainly after I attended school, which was in BC, from 1950 through
1960, then 1960 to 1961 in Toronto.

> It's not a foreign language in my book. It's "the other official
> language".

It's foreign to me, as I speak English. I have no idea what the school
boards considered it. All I know is that on an academic path, a language
other than English was required. I believe that university entrance
required 2 years of said language.

> My contact with the Canadian school system obviously only started after
> coming here in 2002. Within that experience, all children learn the
> other official language from first grade, if not kindergarten. Here in
> Montreal, most have contact with it in day-care or on the street even
> before that.

I am not surprised that this is the case in Quebec. A quick scan of
https://www.edcan.ca/faqs/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw4PKTBhD8ARIsAHChzRIi4mmmJtPGdycmp3rRzLs9K3mO83NtjovX6XpOTvFsOlS-youKDJ8aAi2qEALw_wcB

yields the following:

Alberta:
"Taking French as a Second Language courses (often referred to as FSL)
is optional in Alberta. Students may begin learning French in either
Grade 4 or Grade 10."

From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_bilingualism_in_Canada#Core_French

"There are no mandatory core French class in British Columbia, Alberta
and Saskatchewan, and second-language courses are mandatory only in BC.'

> But people from other provinces I've talked to about that all had French
> in school, too, often if not always from grade one. Pretty much all of
> these were my age or younger, though, so schooled in the 1970s or later.
> And they're people who were living in Quebec at least temporarily, to
> qualify my sample.

* lar3ryca:

> On 2022-05-12 15:45, Quinn C wrote:
>> * lar3ryca:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-12 03:56, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> On 12/05/2022 6:27 am, Hibou wrote:
>>>>> Le 11/05/2022 à 17:40, Ken Blake a écrit :
>>>>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 22:35:18 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>>>>>>> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender
>>>>>>> in BrE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely does
>>>>>> these days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people knew
>>>>> French, in Britain at least;
>>>>
>>>> The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.
>>>
>>> Is that true in the UK?
>>>
>>> In Canada, when I went to school, a language (foreign of course) was
>>> mandatory only for those on an academic path, leading to university
>>> acceptance. The language could be chosen from any that were offered.
>>>
>>> I had the choice of French or Latin at the high school nearest me (it
>>> was about 5 blocks from my home). I did not want to take either of them,
>>> Latin being (in my opinion) useless, and French being, well, French.
>>
>> You didn't have to learn French anyway? Now I wonder when that started.
>
> Certainly after I attended school, which was in BC, from 1950 through
> 1960, then 1960 to 1961 in Toronto.
>
>> It's not a foreign language in my book. It's "the other official
>> language".
>
> It's foreign to me, as I speak English. I have no idea what the school
> boards considered it.

That certainly sounds weird to me, because the core meaning of "foreign"
to me is "from another country". Wikipedia is with me:

| A foreign language is a language not commonly spoken in the country of
| the speaker. [...]
| For example, a child learning English from his English father and
| Irish at school in Ireland can speak both English and Irish, but
| neither is a foreign language to them.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_language>

>> My contact with the Canadian school system obviously only started after
>> coming here in 2002. Within that experience, all children learn the
>> other official language from first grade, if not kindergarten. Here in
>> Montreal, most have contact with it in day-care or on the street even
>> before that.
>
> I am not surprised that this is the case in Quebec. A quick scan of
> https://www.edcan.ca/faqs/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw4PKTBhD8ARIsAHChzRIi4mmmJtPGdycmp3rRzLs9K3mO83NtjovX6XpOTvFsOlS-youKDJ8aAi2qEALw_wcB
>
> yields the following:
>
> Alberta:
> "Taking French as a Second Language courses (often referred to as FSL)
> is optional in Alberta. Students may begin learning French in either
> Grade 4 or Grade 10."
>
> From
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_bilingualism_in_Canada#Core_French
>
> "There are no mandatory core French class in British Columbia, Alberta
> and Saskatchewan, and second-language courses are mandatory only in BC.'

I had one colleague from Saskatchewan, and she had been in French
immersion, i.e. had her whole schooling in French in the early grades.

Most out-of-province people I've talked to are from Manitoba, Ontario or
Nova Scotia, and some of them were even from French-speaking families.
Probably a bias effect from meeting them in Montreal. Although people
also come here to study at one of the two large English-speaking
universities, McGill and Concordia.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

On 13/05/22 01:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 2:59:12 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> If his mother remarried during his childhood, he might take the
>> surname of the step-father[1].
>
> If the stepfather adopts him.

I know someone who was given the surname of his mother's sister's
husband. Then the mother married, so his name was changed to match that
of the mother's husband. When he joined the army, he discovered the
first name on his birth certificate, so he changed back to that.

Many years later, DNA matching helped him find his real father.

(The father was dead by then, but you can deduce a lot via DNA discovery
of cousins and suchlike.)

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On 12/05/22 19:56, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 12/05/2022 6:27 am, Hibou wrote:

>> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people
>> knew French, in Britain at least;
>
> The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.

How effective was that?

I took French for six years in high school. At the end of that, I could
read a French novel if I was willing to blip over the hard words, but I
was almost totally incompetent in conversational French. Later I
enrolled in two university French subjects, but I didn't improve all
that much. I didn't achieve much fluency in the language until I picked
it up the way the cat learnt to swim.

Compare that with my other school subjects. Over the same six years my
understanding of physics and mathematics, for example, expanded enormously.

Perhaps my problem was incompetent teaching, or perhaps it was the lack
of contact with native speakers. These days I can hear French programs,
like the news, on radio or TV, but we didn't have that luxury back then.

One thing I can now do is detect an English or an Australian accent when
hearing someone speak French. The English accent is particularly noticeable.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Just this Thursday, Kerr-Mudd, John puzzled about:
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 05:35:00 -0000 (UTC)
> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>
>> In message <20220511083632.58169c7cbc9e737d938caec0@127.0.0.1> Kerr-Mudd,
>> John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 06:58:05 +0100
>>> Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
>>>>> Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
>>>>>> née is
>>>>>> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>>>>>> sometimes
>>>>>> without the acute accent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>>>>> writing the accent.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You're all individuals!
>>
>> "You are all individuals."
>>
>> I'm not!"
>>
> Yes. And, like sheep, easily lead.

Oh, we LIKE sheep!

/dps "tip of hat to Georg H"

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

On 13/05/22 08:02, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2022, at 15:26:08, Peter Moylan posted:
>> On 12/05/22 15:11, Lewis wrote:
>>
>>> Anybody who tells me what happens to me after I'm dead is either a
>>> liar or a fool because they DON'T KNOW
>>
>> I believe I know. Cremation.
>>
> That raises an interesting question. What is "me" after "I" am dead? A
> drift of smoke in other people's memories, perhaps. But not smoke from
> any crematorium.

I plan to be "the ashes formerly known as Peter".

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On 2022-05-12 16:38, Quinn C wrote:
> * lar3ryca:
>
>> On 2022-05-12 15:45, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * lar3ryca:

>>>> In Canada, when I went to school, a language (foreign of course) was
>>>> mandatory only for those on an academic path, leading to university
>>>> acceptance. The language could be chosen from any that were offered.
>>>>
>>>> I had the choice of French or Latin at the high school nearest me (it
>>>> was about 5 blocks from my home). I did not want to take either of them,
>>>> Latin being (in my opinion) useless, and French being, well, French.
>>>
>>> You didn't have to learn French anyway? Now I wonder when that started.
>>
>> Certainly after I attended school, which was in BC, from 1950 through
>> 1960, then 1960 to 1961 in Toronto.
>>
>>> It's not a foreign language in my book. It's "the other official
>>> language".
>>
>> It's foreign to me, as I speak English. I have no idea what the school
>> boards considered it.
> That certainly sounds weird to me, because the core meaning of "foreign"
> to me is "from another country". Wikipedia is with me:

OK, have it your way. It's a semantic quibble.
The whole point is that on the academic path I was required to take two
years of a language that was not my native language, chosen from a list
of languages that were on the curriculum.

> | A foreign language is a language not commonly spoken in the country of
> | the speaker. [...]
> | For example, a child learning English from his English father and
> | Irish at school in Ireland can speak both English and Irish, but
> | neither is a foreign language to them.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_language>
>
>>> My contact with the Canadian school system obviously only started after
>>> coming here in 2002. Within that experience, all children learn the
>>> other official language from first grade, if not kindergarten. Here in
>>> Montreal, most have contact with it in day-care or on the street even
>>> before that.
>>
>> I am not surprised that this is the case in Quebec. A quick scan of
>> https://www.edcan.ca/faqs/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw4PKTBhD8ARIsAHChzRIi4mmmJtPGdycmp3rRzLs9K3mO83NtjovX6XpOTvFsOlS-youKDJ8aAi2qEALw_wcB
>>
>> yields the following:
>>
>> Alberta:
>> "Taking French as a Second Language courses (often referred to as FSL)
>> is optional in Alberta. Students may begin learning French in either
>> Grade 4 or Grade 10."
>>
>> From
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_bilingualism_in_Canada#Core_French
>>
>> "There are no mandatory core French class in British Columbia, Alberta
>> and Saskatchewan, and second-language courses are mandatory only in BC.'
>
> I had one colleague from Saskatchewan, and she had been in French
> immersion, i.e. had her whole schooling in French in the early grades.

Not surprising. I live about three blocks from a French immersion
elementary school. I have no idea how many French immersion schools
there are in Saskatchewan, and I have no interest in finding out.

> Most out-of-province people I've talked to are from Manitoba, Ontario or
> Nova Scotia, and some of them were even from French-speaking families.
> Probably a bias effect from meeting them in Montreal. Although people
> also come here to study at one of the two large English-speaking
> universities, McGill and Concordia.

Again, unsurprising. Just because French is not a mandatory subject, it
doesn't mean it's prohibited.

Wednesday, Lewis murmurred ...
> In message <je2argFebpiU1@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> Does Stefan seriously imagine that there are people here who don't know
>> all that?
>
> Probably.

I suspect he knows the regulars know this sort of stuff, but as he has
posted in other strands of this thread, he does it for the people who
aren't don't have quite that depth of knowledge and for himself. He is
not as obnoxious about it as the Fake KB (which doesn't stand for
"Knowledge Base").

/dps

--
Let's celebrate Macaronesia

On 13/05/2022 2:04 am, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 12/05/22 19:56, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 12/05/2022 6:27 am, Hibou wrote:
>
>>> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people
>>> knew French, in Britain at least;
>>
>> The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.
>
> How effective was that?

Read on. I gave an example further on in my article.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within