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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: Name changes

SubjectAuthor
* Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
+* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|`* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
| `* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|  +* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |+- Re: Which sentence is better?wugi
|  |`* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|  | `* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |   `- Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|   `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|    `* Re: Which sentence is better?Madhu
|     `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|      `* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|       `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|        `* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|         `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|          `- Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
+- Re: Which sentence is better?Adam Funk
+* Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
|+* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||+* Re: Which sentence is better?bil...@shaw.ca
|||+* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
||||+- Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||||`- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
|||`* Re: Which sentence is better?CDB
||| `* Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
|||  `* Re: Which sentence is better?CDB
|||   `- Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
||+- Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||`* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
|| `* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||  +* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
||  |`- Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||  +- Re: Which sentence is better?charles
||  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||   +* Re: Which sentence is better?charles
||   |`* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter Moylan
||   | `* Re: Which sentence is better?Athel Cornish-Bowden
||   |  +- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
||   |  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Sam Plusnet
||   |   `- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
||   +* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||   |+* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
||   ||`- Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
||   |`- Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||   `* Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Quinn C
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Tony Cooper
||    |`* Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | `- Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Lewis
||    |+- Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)charles
||    |`* Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | +* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | |`* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | +* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | |+* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | | ||`- Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |+* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||+- Re: Name changesBebercito
||    | | ||`* Re: Name changesbil...@shaw.ca
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | | || ||`- Re: Name changesAthel Cornish-Bowden
||    | | || |+- Re: Name changesAthel Cornish-Bowden
||    | | || |`- Re: Name changesAnders D. Nygaard
||    | | || `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||  `* Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | ||   `- Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | |+* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||+* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | |||`* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||| `* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | |||  `- Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||+* Re: Name changesHibou
||    | | |||+* Re: Name changesRichard Heathfield
||    | | ||||+* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||+* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | ||||||`* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||| `* Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||||||  `* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | ||||||   `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||||    +- Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | | ||||||    `- Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||`- Re: Name changesbruce bowser
||    | | ||||`* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | | |||| `* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||||  `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||   `* Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||||    `* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | ||||     +* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||     |`* Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | ||||     | `* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||||     |  `* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||||     |   `- Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||     `- Re: Name changesbruce bowser
||    | | |||`- Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | ||`* Re: Name changesJanet
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesJanet
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | || |`* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | || `* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | |`* Re: Name changesJerry Friedman
||    | | +* Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | +- Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | `- Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | +* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | `* Re: Name changesCDB
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Peter T. Daniels
||    `* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Ken Blake
|`* Re: Which sentence is better?Adam Funk
+* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
`- Re: Which sentence is better?Ruud Harmsen

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Re: Name changes

<t5l12q$178i$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: h.i...@b.ou (Hibou)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 08:24:10 +0100
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 by: Hibou - Fri, 13 May 2022 07:24 UTC

Le 12/05/2022 à 22:45, Quinn C a écrit :
>
> I was able to guess the meaning of "sied" from context, but not the
> infinitive.

Seoir, a more formal verb for convenir, aller, to suit. Ça vous sied, ça
vous va, that suits you.

There's also an antonym, messeoir, I see, which GNV says is 16 times
rarer than seoir.

Re: Name changes

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 17:49:10 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 13 May 2022 07:49 UTC

On 13/05/22 17:24, Hibou wrote:
> Le 12/05/2022 à 22:45, Quinn C a écrit :
>>
>> I was able to guess the meaning of "sied" from context, but not
>> the infinitive.
>
> Seoir, a more formal verb for convenir, aller, to suit. Ça vous sied,
> ça vous va, that suits you.
>
> There's also an antonym, messeoir, I see, which GNV says is 16 times
> rarer than seoir.

It was a new word for me, but I understood it better when the atilf
description made it appear that seoir was originally another version of
asseoir.

It was tempting to look for a connection with English "suit", but
etymonline says that the verb suit is derived from the noun suit.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: Name changes

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 10:00:42 +0100
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GNU: Terry Pratchett
 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Fri, 13 May 2022 09:00 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 17:45:07 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 12 May 2022 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> I am sometimes required use my federal Social
> >> Security number as a means of identification.
> >
> >That is illegal. It says so right on your Social Security card.
>
> That is not true. The *card* is not a legal means of identification,
> but the *number* is. You must provide that number to open a bank or
> brokerage account, for example. You provide that number to your
> employer. You may be asked to identify yourself by providing your
> social security number at a bank or brokerage.
>
> At one time, cards were issued with "For Social Security and Tax
> Purposes - Not for Identification" printed on the face, but that's not
> done now. The last card that contained this was the 9-61 card style.
> That line pertained to the card, not the number, but the current SS
> cards don't have that line.
>
> Or, do you think that banks ask for illegal information?
>
> So, you are not only wrong in fact, but you have made an incorrect
> generalization. Tut, tut, dear boy.
>
There was also the one about you frequently being wrong by generalising from limited experience. Oh the irony.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Name changes

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 10:09:41 +0100
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Fri, 13 May 2022 09:09 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 11:04:45 +1000
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

[French]
>
> One thing I can now do is detect an English or an Australian accent when
> hearing someone speak French. The English accent is particularly noticeable.
>
Edward Heath style?

Un petite, deux petite ...

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Name changes

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 10:11:17 +0100
Organization: Dis
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Fri, 13 May 2022 09:11 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 18:14:38 -0700
Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just this Thursday, Kerr-Mudd, John puzzled about:
> > On Thu, 12 May 2022 05:35:00 -0000 (UTC)
> > Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
> >
> >> In message <20220511083632.58169c7cbc9e737d938caec0@127.0.0.1> Kerr-Mudd,
> >> John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 06:58:05 +0100
> >>> Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
> >>>> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
> >>>>> Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
> >>>>>> née is
> >>>>>> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
> >>>>>> sometimes
> >>>>>> without the acute accent.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> >>>>>> writing the accent.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
> >>>>
> >>>> No, it's not.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> You're all individuals!
> >>
Did I get the quote wrong?

> >> "You are all individuals."
> >>
> >> I'm not!"
> >>
> > Yes. And, like sheep, easily lead.
>
> Oh, we LIKE sheep!
>
> /dps "tip of hat to Georg H"
>
>
okerd critters, thobut.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Name changes

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 10:18:51 +0100
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 by: Adam Funk - Fri, 13 May 2022 09:18 UTC

On 2022-05-12, Lewis wrote:

> In message <qd7q7hh5f8voqcj44pgipq7tajjj4h4sub@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 09:51:03 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 19:32:24 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:45:54 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
>>>>>>><lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>* Adam Funk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> * Lewis:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>>>>>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>>>>>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>>>>>>>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>>>>>>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>>>>>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>>>>>>>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>>>>>>>>> just that it isn't the default?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>>>>>>>>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>>>>>>>>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>>>>>>>>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>>>>>>>>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>>>>>>>>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>>>>>>>>your married name as an addendum".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>>>>>>>husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>>>>>>>professionally known by their birth name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
>>>>>> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
>>>>>> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
>>>>>> name professionally.
>>>>>
>>>>>You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
>>>>>not?
>>>>>
>>>> No. When a woman marries in the US there's no legal reason for her to
>>>> adopt her husband's last name or to retain her own last name.
>>>>
>>>> I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is used to mean "what's on
>>>> record". A woman can legally change her name by getting a new
>>>
>>>Can but not must --- that's what I thought. I wondered if you meant
>>>Florida had some weird law about it.
>
>> An understandable mistake. If there's a law that unfairly restricts
>> or controls the rights of any group, look for Florida or Texas as the
>> source.
>
>> While not a problem over taking the husband's last name, the worst
>> experience my wife had as a second-class citizen was in Illinois in
>> the 1970s.
>
>> We were living in Florida, and my wife had flown to Illinois for a
>> family member's funeral. She flew from Orlando to O'Hare airport in
>> Chicago where she was to rent a car and drive to Rockford IL.
>
>> She had a credit card, but it bore only my name. She'd been using the
>> card for some time without a problem, but Hertz (and the other rental
>> car firms) would only accept a credit card that showed the renter's
>> name. No one would rent her a car.
>
> Interesting. It wasn't until sometime in the 1970s that most banks would
> even allow women to have checking accounts without their husband's
> permission, I'm surprised any credit card companies were issuing credit
> cards in women's names at all.
>
> My step-mother had trouble getting a bank account in c. 1972 in
> California without her husband even though she was divorced and had fled
> the country he lived in. Most the banks simply would not even talk to
> her.
>
> I would not be at all surprised if the rental car companies had a
> specific policy of trying not to rent cars to "women drivers" or

....even though (as any insurance company knows) women are on average
better drivers than men.

> perhaps some other idiotic reason and the credit card thing was a
> simply a way of making the process as inconvenient as possible to
> discourage the practice.
>
>> She was delayed for several hours and built up enough steam to power a
>> locomotive. Typically, she blamed me even though it was common in
>> those days for credit card companies to issue cards only in one name,
>> and for those cards to be accepted without question everywhere else.
>
> Even when I was old enough to be working (mid to late 80s) it was common
> for a woman to have a credit card in her husbands name, because I
> remember thinking it was strange, but I was told it was normal and that
> we definitely accepted the cards.
>

--
It takes a thousand men to invent a telegraph, or a steam engine, or a
phonograph, or a telephone or any other important thing --- and the
last man gets the credit and we forget the others. ---Mark Twain

Re: Name changes

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 20:25:35 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 13 May 2022 10:25 UTC

On 13/05/22 19:09, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 11:04:45 +1000
> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> [French]
>>
>> One thing I can now do is detect an English or an Australian accent when
>> hearing someone speak French. The English accent is particularly noticeable.
>>
> Edward Heath style?
>
> Un petite, deux petite ...

That's almost the beginning of a well-known nursery rhyme.

Un petit d'un petit
S'étonne aux Halles
Un petit d'un petit
Ah ! degrés te fallent
Indolent que ne sort cesse
Indolent qui ne se mène
Qu'importe un petit
Tout Gai de Regennes.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: Name changes

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
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Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 13 May 2022 10:29 UTC

On 13/05/22 19:09, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 11:04:45 +1000 Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> [French]
>>
>> One thing I can now do is detect an English or an Australian accent
>> when hearing someone speak French. The English accent is
>> particularly noticeable.
>>
> Edward Heath style?
>
> Un petite, deux petite ...

In one of my French classes, when I was a student, the instructor said
"Impeccable". One of my classmates responded "Deux peccables".

(You have to have a Paris accent to make that work. Elsewhere in France,
"un" and "in" have different vowels.)

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: Name changes

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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 07:26:53 -0400
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 by: CDB - Fri, 13 May 2022 11:26 UTC

On 5/12/2022 2:47 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> John wrote:
>> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sam Plusnet wrote :
>>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>> Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>>> Hibou wrote:

>>>>>>>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.

>>>>>>> No, it's not.

>>>>>> Oh yes it is.

>>>>> Behind you!

>>>> Leave my behind out of this.

>>> He's apt to give you a bum steer.

>>> /dps "or a welfare queen cow"

>> Better than a poke in a pig.

> Unwise, and illegal in many countries.

Also twisted.

Re: Name changes

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 07:34:13 -0400
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 by: CDB - Fri, 13 May 2022 11:34 UTC

On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * lar3ryca:
>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> Hibou wrote:
>>>> Ken Blake a écrit :
>>>>> Peter Moylan

>>>>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for
>>>>>> gender is blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that
>>>>>> inflects for gender in BrE.

>>>>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very
>>>>> rarely does these days.

>>>>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.

>>>> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated
>>>> people knew French, in Britain at least;

>>> The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.

>> Is that true in the UK?

>> In Canada, when I went to school, a language (foreign of course)
>> was mandatory only for those on an academic path, leading to
>> university acceptance. The language could be chosen from any that
>> were offered.

>> I had the choice of French or Latin at the high school nearest me
>> (it was about 5 blocks from my home). I did not want to take either
>> of them, Latin being (in my opinion) useless, and French being,
>> well, French.

> You didn't have to learn French anyway? Now I wonder when that
> started.

> It's not a foreign language in my book. It's "the other official
> language".

> My contact with the Canadian school system obviously only started
> after coming here in 2002. Within that experience, all children learn
> the other official language from first grade, if not kindergarten.
> Here in Montreal, most have contact with it in day-care or on the
> street even before that.

> But people from other provinces I've talked to about that all had
> French in school, too, often if not always from grade one. Pretty
> much all of these were my age or younger, though, so schooled in the
> 1970s or later. And they're people who were living in Quebec at least
> temporarily, to qualify my sample.

When I was in high school in Canada (1957-61), French was obligatory,
though taught (and learned) at a pretty low level. That was in Ottawa,
of course; but even there most people could live exclusively in English
at that time.

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 by: CDB - Fri, 13 May 2022 11:42 UTC

On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels:
>> Janet wrote:
>>> pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid says...
>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone,
>>>>> since the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
>>>> née is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English -
>>>> although the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes
>>>> with and sometimes without the acute accent. We can say that
>>>> it's naturalised into English once everyone stops writing the
>>>> accent.

>>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without
>>> accent.

>>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable

>> An awful lot of masseurs are being called masseuses these days. (In
>> TV scripts.)

> Oh yeah? I just noticed it the first time this week, but because it
> was Family Guy, I thought they're just having fun.

> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines whether
> it's a medical massage service or the other kind.

Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to imply
"respectively"?

Re: Name changes

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
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Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 22:19:33 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:19 UTC

On 13/05/22 21:26, CDB wrote:
> On 5/12/2022 2:47 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> John wrote:
>>> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote :
>>>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>> Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>>>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hibou wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
>
>>>>>>>> No, it's not.
>
>>>>>>> Oh yes it is.
>
>>>>>> Behind you!
>
>>>>> Leave my behind out of this.
>
>>>> He's apt to give you a bum steer.
>
>>>> /dps "or a welfare queen cow"
>
>>> Better than a poke in a pig.
>
>> Unwise, and illegal in many countries.
>
> Also twisted.

Possibly even with a left-hand thread.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

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From: nob...@home.com (Janet)
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 by: Janet - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:22 UTC

In article <slrnt7quad.2vhp.g.kreme@zephyrus.local>, g.kreme@kreme.dont-
email.me says...

> Interesting. It wasn't until sometime in the 1970s that most banks would
> even allow women to have checking accounts without their husband's
> permission,

In the USA?

I opened my first UK bank current account long before I married, (with
cheque book in my maiden name) in 1963, no guarantor.

Janet

Re: Name changes

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 by: Janet - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:48 UTC

In article <mn.655c7e650c464345.127094@snitoo>, snidely.too@gmail.com
says...
>
> Wednesday, Lewis murmurred ...
> > In message <je2argFebpiU1@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
> > <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >> Does Stefan seriously imagine that there are people here who don't know
> >> all that?
> >
> > Probably.
>
> I suspect he knows the regulars know this sort of stuff, but as he has
> posted in other strands of this thread, he does it for the people who
> aren't don't have quite that depth of knowledge

Well, at least they won't get their feet wet.

Janet

Re: Name changes

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
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Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Stefan Ram - Fri, 13 May 2022 13:06 UTC

CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> writes:
>On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>>In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
>>feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines whether
>>it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
>Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to imply
>"respectively"?

BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate
such services.

One type might be called: "legitimate massage parlor",
"legit massage parlor", or "legitimate massage therapy center".

The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".

(My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)

Re: Name changes

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Adam Funk - Fri, 13 May 2022 13:32 UTC

On 2022-05-13, CDB wrote:

> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels:
>>> Janet wrote:
>>>> pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid says...
>>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone,
>>>>>> since the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
>>>>> née is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English -
>>>>> although the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes
>>>>> with and sometimes without the acute accent. We can say that
>>>>> it's naturalised into English once everyone stops writing the
>>>>> accent.
>
>>>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>>>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without
>>>> accent.
>
>>>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>
>>> An awful lot of masseurs are being called masseuses these days. (In
>>> TV scripts.)
>
>> Oh yeah? I just noticed it the first time this week, but because it
>> was Family Guy, I thought they're just having fun.
>
>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines whether
>> it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
>
> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to imply
> "respectively"?

I'd assume the more French one is the naughty kind.

--
I've had a few myself, he said,
but I never quit when I'm ahead

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 14:48:47 +0100
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Fri, 13 May 2022 13:48 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 20:25:35 +1000
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 13/05/22 19:09, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 May 2022 11:04:45 +1000
> > Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > [French]
> >>
> >> One thing I can now do is detect an English or an Australian accent when
> >> hearing someone speak French. The English accent is particularly noticeable.
> >>
> > Edward Heath style?
> >
> > Un petite, deux petite ...
>
> That's almost the beginning of a well-known nursery rhyme.
>
> Un petit d'un petit
> S'étonne aux Halles
> Un petit d'un petit
> Ah ! degrés te fallent
> Indolent que ne sort cesse
> Indolent qui ne se mène
> Qu'importe un petit
> Tout Gai de Regennes.

Yup, it was that that I was (mis-)remembering.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Name changes

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Fri, 13 May 2022 14:04 UTC

* CDB:

> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels:
>>> Janet wrote:

>>>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>>>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without
>>>> accent.
>
>>>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>
>>> An awful lot of masseurs are being called masseuses these days. (In
>>> TV scripts.)
>
>> Oh yeah? I just noticed it the first time this week, but because it
>> was Family Guy, I thought they're just having fun.
>
>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines whether
>> it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
>
> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to imply
> "respectively"?

Yes, that way around. It's not a distinction made consistently by
everyone, but at least a solid first guess.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Re: Name changes

<kyla05u7gj2q$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Fri, 13 May 2022 14:14 UTC

* CDB:

> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:

>> My contact with the Canadian school system obviously only started
>> after coming here in 2002. Within that experience, all children learn
>> the other official language from first grade, if not kindergarten.
>> Here in Montreal, most have contact with it in day-care or on the
>> street even before that.
>
>> But people from other provinces I've talked to about that all had
>> French in school, too, often if not always from grade one. Pretty
>> much all of these were my age or younger, though, so schooled in the
>> 1970s or later. And they're people who were living in Quebec at least
>> temporarily, to qualify my sample.
>
> When I was in high school in Canada (1957-61), French was obligatory,
> though taught (and learned) at a pretty low level. That was in Ottawa,
> of course; but even there most people could live exclusively in English
> at that time.

Even in parts of Montreal, they could and they did.

The difference between studying a language and actually learning it that
PTD pointed out comes into play here.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Re: Name changes

<e4uhjp4h7hxo.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Fri, 13 May 2022 14:14 UTC

* lar3ryca:

> On 2022-05-12 16:38, Quinn C wrote:
>> * lar3ryca:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-12 15:45, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * lar3ryca:
>
>>>>> In Canada, when I went to school, a language (foreign of course) was
>>>>> mandatory only for those on an academic path, leading to university
>>>>> acceptance. The language could be chosen from any that were offered.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had the choice of French or Latin at the high school nearest me (it
>>>>> was about 5 blocks from my home). I did not want to take either of them,
>>>>> Latin being (in my opinion) useless, and French being, well, French.
>>>>
>>>> You didn't have to learn French anyway? Now I wonder when that started.
>>>
>>> Certainly after I attended school, which was in BC, from 1950 through
>>> 1960, then 1960 to 1961 in Toronto.
>>>
>>>> It's not a foreign language in my book. It's "the other official
>>>> language".
>>>
>>> It's foreign to me, as I speak English. I have no idea what the school
>>> boards considered it.
>> That certainly sounds weird to me, because the core meaning of "foreign"
>> to me is "from another country". Wikipedia is with me:
>
> OK, have it your way. It's a semantic quibble.

That's what AUE is about.

>> I had one colleague from Saskatchewan, and she had been in French
>> immersion, i.e. had her whole schooling in French in the early grades.
>
> Not surprising. I live about three blocks from a French immersion
> elementary school. I have no idea how many French immersion schools
> there are in Saskatchewan, and I have no interest in finding out.
>
>> Most out-of-province people I've talked to are from Manitoba, Ontario or
>> Nova Scotia, and some of them were even from French-speaking families.
>> Probably a bias effect from meeting them in Montreal. Although people
>> also come here to study at one of the two large English-speaking
>> universities, McGill and Concordia.
>
> Again, unsurprising. Just because French is not a mandatory subject, it
> doesn't mean it's prohibited.

Sure, but what we were discussing was my impression that every Canadian
below a certain age has had French or English in school, the one that
wasn't the main teaching language. That could happen by law or just in
practice. But is probably not true.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Re: Name changes

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Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Fri, 13 May 2022 14:48 UTC

* Adam Funk:

> On 2022-05-13, CDB wrote:
>
>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels:
>>>> Janet wrote:
>>>>> pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid says...
>>>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone,
>>>>>>> since the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
>>>>>> née is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English -
>>>>>> although the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes
>>>>>> with and sometimes without the acute accent. We can say that
>>>>>> it's naturalised into English once everyone stops writing the
>>>>>> accent.
>>
>>>>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>>>>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without
>>>>> accent.
>>
>>>>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>>
>>>> An awful lot of masseurs are being called masseuses these days. (In
>>>> TV scripts.)
>>
>>> Oh yeah? I just noticed it the first time this week, but because it
>>> was Family Guy, I thought they're just having fun.
>>
>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines whether
>>> it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
>>
>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to imply
>> "respectively"?
>
> I'd assume the more French one is the naughty kind.

Yes, but it used to be the only one, and some may still use it
indiscriminately. So it's not a case of importing a French word
specifically for naughtiness.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Re: Name changes

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Fri, 13 May 2022 16:15 UTC

* Peter Moylan:

> One thing I can now do is detect an English or an Australian accent when
> hearing someone speak French. The English accent is particularly noticeable.

I recently spotted someone as having a French-of-France accent rather
than a Quebec accent in her English within the first sentence.

--
Worf: You are not in my shoes.
Dax: Too bad. You'd be amazed at what I can do in a pair of size 18
boots.

Re: Name changes

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 by: Adam Funk - Fri, 13 May 2022 16:41 UTC

On 2022-05-13, Quinn C wrote:

> * Adam Funk:
>
>> On 2022-05-13, CDB wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> Peter T. Daniels:
>>>>> Janet wrote:
>>>>>> pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid says...
>>>>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>>>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone,
>>>>>>>> since the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
>>>>>>> née is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English -
>>>>>>> although the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes
>>>>>>> with and sometimes without the acute accent. We can say that
>>>>>>> it's naturalised into English once everyone stops writing the
>>>>>>> accent.
>>>
>>>>>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>>>>>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without
>>>>>> accent.
>>>
>>>>>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>>>
>>>>> An awful lot of masseurs are being called masseuses these days. (In
>>>>> TV scripts.)
>>>
>>>> Oh yeah? I just noticed it the first time this week, but because it
>>>> was Family Guy, I thought they're just having fun.
>>>
>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
>>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines whether
>>>> it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
>>>
>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to imply
>>> "respectively"?
>>
>> I'd assume the more French one is the naughty kind.
>
> Yes, but it used to be the only one, and some may still use it
> indiscriminately. So it's not a case of importing a French word
> specifically for naughtiness.

Well, that's disappointing. ;-)

--
There’s never enough time to do all the nothing you want.
---Calvin

Re: Name changes

<t5m33m$5o1$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=130738&group=alt.usage.english#130738

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From: lar...@invalid.ca (lar3ryca)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 11:04:53 -0600
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 by: lar3ryca - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:04 UTC

On 2022-05-13 06:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 13/05/22 21:26, CDB wrote:
>> On 5/12/2022 2:47 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>> John wrote:
>>>> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote :
>>>>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>> Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>>>>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hibou wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it's not.
>>
>>>>>>>> Oh yes it is.
>>
>>>>>>> Behind you!
>>
>>>>>> Leave my behind out of this.
>>
>>>>> He's apt to give you a bum steer.
>>
>>>>> /dps "or a welfare queen cow"
>>
>>>> Better than a poke in a pig.
>>
>>> Unwise, and illegal in many countries.
>>
>> Also twisted.
>
> Possibly even with a left-hand thread.

Out of the woods comes Dirty old Dick,
The only man with a corkscrew prick.
For many long years he continued the hunt
To find a woman with a corkscrew cunt.
When he finally found her he shot her dead
When he found out she had a left-hand thread.

Re: Name changes

<f3d1a413-84d0-4cc1-a4ea-d39ab49b46e3n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: bruce2bo...@gmail.com (bruce bowser)
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 by: bruce bowser - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:11 UTC

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:36:36 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 06:58:05 +0100
> Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
> > On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
> > > Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> > >>
> > >> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
> > >> née is
> > >> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
> > >> the
> > >> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
> > >> sometimes
> > >> without the acute accent.
> > >>
> > >> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> > >> writing the accent.
> > >
> > > It's difficult to have everyone agree.
> >
> > No, it's not.
> >
> You're all individuals!

No. We're a group.

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