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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: Newbie Netiquette

SubjectAuthor
* Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteAthel Cornish-Bowden
|+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteKen Blake
||`* Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
|| `- Re: Newbie NetiquetteKerr-Mudd, John
|`* Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
| +* Re: Newbie NetiquetteAthel Cornish-Bowden
| |+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteRichard Heathfield
| ||+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteKen Blake
| |||+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteRichard Heathfield
| ||||`* Re: Newbie Netiquettelar3ryca
| |||| `* Re: Newbie NetiquetteSnidely
| ||||  +* Re: Newbie Netiquettelar3ryca
| ||||  |`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteSnidely
| ||||  `- Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
| |||`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteKerr-Mudd, John
| ||`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
| |+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteAdam Funk
| ||`* Re: Newbie NetiquetteAthel Cornish-Bowden
| || `- Re: Newbie NetiquetteAdam Funk
| |`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
| `- Re: Newbie NetiquettePeter Moylan
+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteStefan Ram
|`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteKerr-Mudd, John
+- Re: Newbie NetiquetteKerr-Mudd, John
+* Re: Newbie NetiquettePeter Moylan
|+- Re: Newbie NetiquetteAthel Cornish-Bowden
|+- Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
|`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteCDB
`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteCDB

Pages:12
Newbie Netiquette

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 15:45:59 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 12 May 2022 13:45 UTC

Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
Quote:
==
Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
==

I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Thu, 12 May 2022 14:10 UTC

On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:

> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
> Quote:
> ==
> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
> before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
> ==
>
> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.

I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by "officially". Since
when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make rules for
everyone to follow? Not only that, but the document itself says "This
memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind" in its second
sentence.

You seem to have returned to your demand that everyone had to do things
in the way you consider correct. Have you forgotten how pissed off many
people were at being bossed around by a newbie? (I know you claimed not
to be a newbie, but no one remembered what you claimed to have posted
in the 1990s.)

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: 12 May 2022 14:19:52 GMT
Organization: Stefan Ram
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 by: Stefan Ram - Thu, 12 May 2022 14:19 UTC

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> writes:
>Quote:
>==
>Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
> before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>==
>I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.

Me Too!

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
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 by: Ken Blake - Thu, 12 May 2022 15:16 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>
>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>> Quote:
>> =>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>> before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>> =>>
>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>
>I don't disagree,

I disagree. Frequently there's more than one way to look at something,
and agreeing with someone who espouses one of those ways reinforces
the point he's making. It can be very valuable, especially in response
to a technical question. Having multiple people say something makes it
more likely to be correct than if just one person says it.

....

>You seem to have returned to your demand that everyone had to do things
>in the way you consider correct. Have you forgotten how pissed off many
>people were at being bossed around by a newbie?

I'm pissed off by anyone who wants to boss us around, newbie or not.
But this particular newbie doesn't piss me off because he's killfiled
here.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
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GNU: Terry Pratchett
 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Thu, 12 May 2022 20:23 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 15:45:59 +0200
Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
> Quote:
> ==
> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
> before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
> ==
>
> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.

Me too! Doh!

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Thu, 12 May 2022 20:24 UTC

On 12 May 2022 14:19:52 GMT
ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:

> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> writes:
> >Quote:
> >==
> >Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
> > before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
> > where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
> > Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
> >==
> >I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>
> Me Too!
>
>
Blast it. Tool ate.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 11:41:45 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 13 May 2022 01:41 UTC

On 12/05/22 23:45, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
> Quote:
> ==
> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
> before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
> ==
>
> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.

The date is significant. As I recall it "Me too" messages did not become
a problem until 1993, which is about the time when AOL created a new
class of clueless newbies.

These days you'll occasionally find a "+1" in AUE threads, or even "AOL"
as a response. These are no longer seen as a problem because we're not
being flooded with them.

In other words, that 1995 document is addressing a 1995 problem, and by
now has lost some of its relevance.

The suggestion "Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted
content" is interesting. I would revise that to something like "the
quoted content should be sufficient to make the new contribution make
sense, but normally no more than that".

I do agree, though, that these days AUE is badly infected by excessive
quoting.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Fri, 13 May 2022 06:06 UTC

On 2022-05-13 01:41:45 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
> [ … ]
>
> The suggestion "Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted
> content" is interesting. I would revise that to something like "the
> quoted content should be sufficient to make the new contribution make
> sense, but normally no more than that".
>
> I do agree, though, that these days AUE is badly infected by excessive
> quoting.

Have a look at talk.origins. Then you'll see some excessive quoting.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

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Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Fri, 13 May 2022 06:14 UTC

Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:

>On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>
>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>> Quote:
>> ==
>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>> before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>> ==
>>
>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>
>I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by "officially". Since
>when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make rules for
>everyone to follow?

RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
1995? Yes, I think so. IETF is Taskforce Something, I think. Yes,
Internet Engineering Task Force.

>Not only that, but the document itself says "This
>memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind" in its second
>sentence.

They all say that, but I think that's a joke. Early internet, C and
Unix humor. And RFC means Request For Comments, so they are merely
proposals, origianally. But when adopted, they become standards. Or al
least de facto.

>You seem to have returned to your demand that everyone had to do things
>in the way you consider correct.

I don't demand anything. I have long accepted that people will just
keep doing it differently than I would deem best. Nobody got that. But
it's how it is.

>Have you forgotten how pissed off many
>people were at being bossed around by a newbie? (I know you claimed not
>to be a newbie, but no one remembered what you claimed to have posted
>in the 1990s.)

It was all a big misunderstanding or yourall side, showing some
inherent human nastiness in the process.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Fri, 13 May 2022 06:35 UTC

Thu, 12 May 2022 08:16:48 -0700: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
scribeva:
>I'm pissed off by anyone who wants to boss us around, newbie or not.

During my career, several times I was offered the opportunity to
become a manager, so to become boss in a way. But I always managed to
avoid that, rather dealing with things and details myself, not
delegating them to subordinated project members. It's not in my
character.

So the idea of me, of all people, bossing around people, is completely
unrealistic.

Many people don't understand irony and hyperbole. But I like to use
them when writing. It's probably my poor communication skills too,
that caused this.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
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Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 08:38:15 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Fri, 13 May 2022 06:38 UTC

Fri, 13 May 2022 11:41:45 +1000: Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>The suggestion "Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted
>content" is interesting. I would revise that to something like "the
>quoted content should be sufficient to make the new contribution make
>sense, but normally no more than that".

Exactly my idea. But when I expressed that humble opinion, it was
interpreted by some as "a newbie bossing people around". So be it.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 08:48:38 +0200
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Fri, 13 May 2022 06:48 UTC

On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:

> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>
>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>
>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>>> Quote:
>>> ==
>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>>> before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>>> ==
>>>
>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>>
>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by "officially". Since
>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make rules for
>> everyone to follow?
>
> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
> 1995?

Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It says
"Intel Corp." very clearly.

> Yes, I think so. IETF is Taskforce Something, I think. Yes,
> Internet Engineering Task Force.
>
>> Not only that, but the document itself says "This
>> memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind" in its second
>> sentence.
>
> They all say that, but I think that's a joke.

The thing about jokes is that they are supposed to be amusing: are you
amused by that?

> Early internet, C and
> Unix humor. And RFC means Request For Comments, so they are merely
> proposals, origianally. But when adopted, they become standards. Or al
> least de facto.
>
>> You seem to have returned to your demand that everyone had to do things
>> in the way you consider correct.
>
> I don't demand anything. I have long accepted that people will just
> keep doing it differently than I would deem best. Nobody got that. But
> it's how it is.
>
>> Have you forgotten how pissed off many
>> people were at being bossed around by a newbie? (I know you claimed not
>> to be a newbie, but no one remembered what you claimed to have posted
>> in the 1990s.)
>
> It was all a big misunderstanding or yourall side, showing some
> inherent human nastiness in the process.

Nonsense.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 08:20:31 +0100
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Fri, 13 May 2022 07:20 UTC

On 13/05/2022 7:48 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>
>> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>
>>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>>>> Quote:
>>>> ==
>>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>>>> before posting replies.  Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>>>> ==
>>>>
>>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>>>
>>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by
>>> "officially". Since
>>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make
>>> rules for
>>> everyone to follow?
>>
>> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
>> 1995?
>
> Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It
> says "Intel Corp." very clearly.

And Intel has been around since 1968. The PC was launched in
1981, as every schoolboy knows, and it was driven by Intel's
8086, as every schoolboy also knows, so by 1995 it was very,
very, very well established. People who didn't know this should
probably go back to school before trying to teach on the subject
of computing.

>
>>  Yes, I think so. IETF is Taskforce Something, I think. Yes,
>> Internet Engineering Task Force.
>>
>>> Not only that, but the document itself says "This
>>> memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind" in its
>>> second
>>> sentence.
>>
>> They all say that, but I think that's a joke.
>
> The thing about jokes is that they are supposed to be amusing:
> are you amused by that?

The disclaimer is not a joke. It's RFC boilerplate. Joke RFCs
tend to be dated 1st April.

>>> Have you forgotten how pissed off many
>>> people were at being bossed around by a newbie? (I know you
>>> claimed not
>>> to be a newbie, but no one remembered what you claimed to have
>>> posted
>>> in the 1990s.)
>>
>> It was all a big misunderstanding or yourall side, showing some
>> inherent human nastiness in the process.
>
> Nonsense.

Yup. I think it's called "projection".

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 17:29:48 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 13 May 2022 07:29 UTC

On 13/05/22 16:14, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:

> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
> 1995? Yes, I think so. IETF is Taskforce Something, I think. Yes,
> Internet Engineering Task Force.
>
>> Not only that, but the document itself says "This memo does not
>> specify an Internet standard of any kind" in its second sentence.
>
> They all say that, but I think that's a joke. Early internet, C and
> Unix humor. And RFC means Request For Comments, so they are merely
> proposals, origianally. But when adopted, they become standards. Or
> al least de facto.

Hundreds of RFCs have become de facto standards, but only a small
handful have had their status upgraded to "standard". In fact the
majority of those considered by many people to be standards have
officially expired, according to the expiry date shown in the document
itself.

The lower-numbered ones are clearer and better written. That's because
there used to be an editor, Jon Postel, who did a good job of sending
draft RFCs back for revision when he found errors and ambiguities, or
apparently even cases of bad writing. After he died the quality went
down, which tells me that the IETF has dropped the ball on quality control.

The earliest one that I became aware of as being badly designed is the
IMAP standard, RFC 2060. (Of course I haven't looked at all the RFCs, so
there are probably earlier bad examples.) That is one where the editor
really should have said "Go back and get it right". It is not possible
to develop IMAP software from the standard alone, because of the
ambiguities. In addition some of the features of IMAP should have been
redesigned before letting the document out into the wild. But it's too
late now to get it right.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
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 by: Adam Funk - Fri, 13 May 2022 08:54 UTC

On 2022-05-13, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>
>> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>
>>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>>>> Quote:
>>>> ==
>>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>>>> before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>>>> ==
>>>>
>>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>>>
>>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by "officially". Since
>>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make rules for
>>> everyone to follow?
>>
>> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
>> 1995?
>
> Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It says
> "Intel Corp." very clearly.

That's just where the author of that specific RFC worked at the
time. If you look at other RFCs, you'll see other authors &
institutions.

>
>> Yes, I think so. IETF is Taskforce Something, I think. Yes,
>> Internet Engineering Task Force.
>>
>>> Not only that, but the document itself says "This
>>> memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind" in its second
>>> sentence.
>>
>> They all say that, but I think that's a joke.
>
> The thing about jokes is that they are supposed to be amusing: are you
> amused by that?
>
>> Early internet, C and
>> Unix humor. And RFC means Request For Comments, so they are merely
>> proposals, origianally. But when adopted, they become standards. Or al
>> least de facto.
>>
>>> You seem to have returned to your demand that everyone had to do things
>>> in the way you consider correct.
>>
>> I don't demand anything. I have long accepted that people will just
>> keep doing it differently than I would deem best. Nobody got that. But
>> it's how it is.
>>
>>> Have you forgotten how pissed off many
>>> people were at being bossed around by a newbie? (I know you claimed not
>>> to be a newbie, but no one remembered what you claimed to have posted
>>> in the 1990s.)
>>
>> It was all a big misunderstanding or yourall side, showing some
>> inherent human nastiness in the process.
>
> Nonsense.
>

--
Outside of the city limits the heart of darkness, the true wasteland
begins. --Ignatius J Reilly

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Fri, 13 May 2022 09:19 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:35:26 +0200
Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

> Thu, 12 May 2022 08:16:48 -0700: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
> scribeva:
> >I'm pissed off by anyone who wants to boss us around, newbie or not.
>
> During my career, several times I was offered the opportunity to
> become a manager, so to become boss in a way. But I always managed to
> avoid that, rather dealing with things and details myself, not
> delegating them to subordinated project members. It's not in my
> character.
>
> So the idea of me, of all people, bossing around people, is completely
> unrealistic.
>
> Many people don't understand irony and hyperbole. But I like to use
> them when writing. It's probably my poor communication skills too,
> that caused this.

That's OK.

> --
> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ah well, it's good to have a hobby.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Fri, 13 May 2022 10:03 UTC

On 2022-05-13 08:54:18 +0000, Adam Funk said:

> On 2022-05-13, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>
>>> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>
>>>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>>>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>>>>> Quote:
>>>>> ==
>>>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>>>>> before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>>>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>>>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>>>>> ==
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>>>>
>>>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by "officially". Since
>>>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make rules for
>>>> everyone to follow?
>>>
>>> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
>>> 1995?
>>
>> Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It says
>> "Intel Corp." very clearly.
>
> That's just where the author of that specific RFC worked at the
> time. If you look at other RFCs, you'll see other authors &
> institutions.

I know, and I saw that. However, there is no disclaimer to say that the
opinions expressed do not represent those of the Intel Corporation.
>

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 08:08:03 -0400
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 by: CDB - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:08 UTC

On 5/12/2022 9:45 AM, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5 years
> ago, in RFC1855, weblink
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 . Quote: == Read all of
> a discussion in progress (we call this a thread) before posting
> replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages, where content is limited
> to agreement with previous posts. Content of a follow-up post should
> exceed quoted content. ==

> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.

The ukase about length of content would not do at all here. Often there
is a considerable contextual runup to the latest observation.

I try to snip only matter that is no longer related to the discussion.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
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 by: CDB - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:16 UTC

On 5/12/2022 9:41 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 . Quote: == Read all
>> of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread) before posting
>> replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages, where content is
>> limited to agreement with previous posts. Content of a follow-up
>> post should exceed quoted content. ==

>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.

> The date is significant. As I recall it "Me too" messages did not
> become a problem until 1993, which is about the time when AOL
> created a new class of clueless newbies.

> These days you'll occasionally find a "+1" in AUE threads, or even
> "AOL" as a response. These are no longer seen as a problem because
> we're not being flooded with them.

And, in this group, it may be useful for the reader to get an idea of
how widely an opinion is shared.

> In other words, that 1995 document is addressing a 1995 problem, and
> by now has lost some of its relevance.

> The suggestion "Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted
> content" is interesting. I would revise that to something like "the
> quoted content should be sufficient to make the new contribution make
> sense, but normally no more than that".

> I do agree, though, that these days AUE is badly infected by
> excessive quoting.

Make me snip. Go ahead and try.

--
Just don't be rude about it.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
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 by: Adam Funk - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:54 UTC

On 2022-05-13, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2022-05-13 08:54:18 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>
>> On 2022-05-13, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>
>>>> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>>>>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>>>>>> Quote:
>>>>>> ==
>>>>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>>>>>> before posting replies. Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>>>>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>>>>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by "officially". Since
>>>>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make rules for
>>>>> everyone to follow?
>>>>
>>>> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
>>>> 1995?
>>>
>>> Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It says
>>> "Intel Corp." very clearly.
>>
>> That's just where the author of that specific RFC worked at the
>> time. If you look at other RFCs, you'll see other authors &
>> institutions.
>
> I know, and I saw that. However, there is no disclaimer to say that the
> opinions expressed do not represent those of the Intel Corporation.

I'm surprised that even in 1995 they didn't put that in.

--
[Those cookbooks] seem to consider _everything_ a leftover, which you
must do something with. For instance, cake. This is like telling you
what to do with your leftover whisky. ---Peg Bracken

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
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 by: Ken Blake - Fri, 13 May 2022 15:37 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:20:31 +0100, Richard Heathfield
<rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>On 13/05/2022 7:48 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>
>>> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>
>>>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>>>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>>>>> Quote:
>>>>> =>>>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>>>>> before posting replies.  Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>>>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>>>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>>>>> =>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>>>>
>>>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by
>>>> "officially". Since
>>>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make
>>>> rules for
>>>> everyone to follow?
>>>
>>> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
>>> 1995?
>>
>> Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It
>> says "Intel Corp." very clearly.
>
>And Intel has been around since 1968. The PC was launched in
>1981, as every schoolboy knows, and it was driven by Intel's
>8086, as every schoolboy also knows,

I guess you're not a schoolboy. <G> It was the 8088.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:04 UTC

On 13/05/2022 4:37 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:20:31 +0100, Richard Heathfield
> <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 13/05/2022 7:48 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>
>>>> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>>>>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>>>>>> Quote:
>>>>>> ==
>>>>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>>>>>> before posting replies.  Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>>>>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>>>>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by
>>>>> "officially". Since
>>>>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make
>>>>> rules for
>>>>> everyone to follow?
>>>>
>>>> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
>>>> 1995?
>>>
>>> Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It
>>> says "Intel Corp." very clearly.
>>
>> And Intel has been around since 1968. The PC was launched in
>> 1981, as every schoolboy knows, and it was driven by Intel's
>> 8086, as every schoolboy also knows,
>
> I guess you're not a schoolboy. <G> It was the 8088.

And the 8088 was an 8086 in casual dress.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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 by: lar3ryca - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:07 UTC

On 2022-05-13 11:04, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 4:37 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:20:31 +0100, Richard Heathfield
>> <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/05/2022 7:48 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>> On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>
>>>>> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>>>>>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>>>>>>> Quote:
>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>>>>>>> before posting replies.  Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>>>>>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>>>>>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by
>>>>>> "officially". Since
>>>>>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make
>>>>>> rules for
>>>>>> everyone to follow?
>>>>>
>>>>> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
>>>>> 1995?
>>>>
>>>> Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It
>>>> says "Intel Corp." very clearly.
>>>
>>> And Intel has been around since 1968. The PC was launched in
>>> 1981, as every schoolboy knows, and it was driven by Intel's
>>> 8086, as every schoolboy also knows,
>>
>> I guess you're not a schoolboy. <G> It was the 8088.
>
> And the 8088 was an 8086 in casual dress.

Which in turn was a slight improvement over the 8080.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Fri, 13 May 2022 21:24 UTC

Fri, 13 May 2022 08:48:38 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>The thing about jokes is that they are supposed to be amusing: are you
>amused by that?

I am a fan of Unix humour, yes. I learnt much of my English by reading
man pages. And I liked them. GNU = GNU not Unix, that sorta thing.

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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Fri, 13 May 2022 21:27 UTC

Fri, 13 May 2022 08:20:31 +0100: Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk>
scribeva:
>And Intel has been around since 1968. The PC was launched in
>1981, as every schoolboy knows, and it was driven by Intel's
>8086, as every schoolboy also knows, so by 1995 it was very,
>very, very well established. People who didn't know this should
>probably go back to school before trying to teach on the subject
>of computing.

I first worked with an IBM PC professionally in 1984. And in 1991 I
owned one.

>
>>
>>>  Yes, I think so. IETF is Taskforce Something, I think. Yes,
>>> Internet Engineering Task Force.
>>>
>>>> Not only that, but the document itself says "This
>>>> memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind" in its
>>>> second
>>>> sentence.
>>>
>>> They all say that, but I think that's a joke.
>>
>> The thing about jokes is that they are supposed to be amusing:
>> are you amused by that?
>
>The disclaimer is not a joke. It's RFC boilerplate. Joke RFCs
>tend to be dated 1st April.

Yet this RFC is much less formal and precise than those who, say,
specify how to send an e-mail over an encrypted channel.

>>>> Have you forgotten how pissed off many
>>>> people were at being bossed around by a newbie? (I know you
>>>> claimed not
>>>> to be a newbie, but no one remembered what you claimed to have
>>>> posted
>>>> in the 1990s.)
>>>
>>> It was all a big misunderstanding or yourall side, showing some
>>> inherent human nastiness in the process.
>>
>> Nonsense.
>
>Yup. I think it's called "projection".

On youse part, yes.

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server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor