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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: Newbie Netiquette

SubjectAuthor
* Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteAthel Cornish-Bowden
|+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteKen Blake
||`* Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
|| `- Re: Newbie NetiquetteKerr-Mudd, John
|`* Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
| +* Re: Newbie NetiquetteAthel Cornish-Bowden
| |+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteRichard Heathfield
| ||+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteKen Blake
| |||+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteRichard Heathfield
| ||||`* Re: Newbie Netiquettelar3ryca
| |||| `* Re: Newbie NetiquetteSnidely
| ||||  +* Re: Newbie Netiquettelar3ryca
| ||||  |`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteSnidely
| ||||  `- Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
| |||`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteKerr-Mudd, John
| ||`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
| |+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteAdam Funk
| ||`* Re: Newbie NetiquetteAthel Cornish-Bowden
| || `- Re: Newbie NetiquetteAdam Funk
| |`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
| `- Re: Newbie NetiquettePeter Moylan
+* Re: Newbie NetiquetteStefan Ram
|`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteKerr-Mudd, John
+- Re: Newbie NetiquetteKerr-Mudd, John
+* Re: Newbie NetiquettePeter Moylan
|+- Re: Newbie NetiquetteAthel Cornish-Bowden
|+- Re: Newbie NetiquetteRuud Harmsen
|`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteCDB
`- Re: Newbie NetiquetteCDB

Pages:12
Re: Newbie Netiquette

<mn.6c097e657eca1981.127094@snitoo>

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https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=130808&group=alt.usage.english#130808

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: snidely....@gmail.com (Snidely)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 17:13:06 -0700
Organization: Dis One
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <mn.6c097e657eca1981.127094@snitoo>
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 by: Snidely - Sat, 14 May 2022 00:13 UTC

lar3ryca blurted out:
> On 2022-05-13 11:04, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 13/05/2022 4:37 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:20:31 +0100, Richard Heathfield
>>> <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 13/05/2022 7:48 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>>>>>>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>>>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>>>>>>>> Quote:
>>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>>>>>>>> before posting replies.  Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>>>>>>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>>>>>>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by
>>>>>>> "officially". Since
>>>>>>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make
>>>>>>> rules for
>>>>>>> everyone to follow?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
>>>>>> 1995?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It
>>>>> says "Intel Corp." very clearly.
>>>>
>>>> And Intel has been around since 1968. The PC was launched in
>>>> 1981, as every schoolboy knows, and it was driven by Intel's
>>>> 8086, as every schoolboy also knows,
>>>
>>> I guess you're not a schoolboy. <G> It was the 8088.
>>
>> And the 8088 was an 8086 in casual dress.
>
> Which in turn was a slight improvement over the 8080.

Are you overestimating the 8080/8085 or underestimating the 8088/8086?
The 8080 needed external bank switching hardware to access more than
64K, the 8088 could access 1G, and had native 16-bit arithmetic instead
of having to use subroutines. The 8080 had *NO* FPU; the 8088's was
external (8087) but fully integrated into the instruction set. [It was
still external with 80286 and 80386, but on-die by the 80486 DX]

Amusing trivia: the 80186 and 80188 designs were started after the
80286 design, but shipped first thanks to better CAD tools. You may
know the 80188 from some Tandy machines. I think it was also popular
in automotive controller designs.

/dps

--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: lar...@invalid.ca (lar3ryca)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 18:46:24 -0600
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 by: lar3ryca - Sat, 14 May 2022 00:46 UTC

On 2022-05-13 18:13, Snidely wrote:
> lar3ryca blurted out:
>> On 2022-05-13 11:04, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2022 4:37 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:20:31 +0100, Richard Heathfield
>>>> <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 13/05/2022 7:48 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>>>>>>>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>>>>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>>>>>>>>> Quote:
>>>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>>>>>>>>> before posting replies.  Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>>>>>>>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>>>>>>>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>>>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by
>>>>>>>> "officially". Since
>>>>>>>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make
>>>>>>>> rules for
>>>>>>>> everyone to follow?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
>>>>>>> 1995?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It
>>>>>> says "Intel Corp." very clearly.
>>>>>
>>>>> And Intel has been around since 1968. The PC was launched in
>>>>> 1981, as every schoolboy knows, and it was driven by Intel's
>>>>> 8086, as every schoolboy also knows,
>>>>
>>>> I guess you're not a schoolboy. <G> It was the 8088.
>>>
>>> And the 8088 was an 8086 in casual dress.
>>
>> Which in turn was a slight improvement over the 8080.
>
> Are you overestimating the 8080/8085 or underestimating the 8088/8086?

Perhaps neither. Perhaps both. Back in the day, I was not a fan of Intel
chips, and looked askance at all of them. By the time I considered them
to be 'just about good enough', I was using Motorola chips. It did not
help my view of Intel silicon that Microsoft was still stuck in
640K-land and claiming that you could not multitask with less than 4MB,
while we were doing it in 512K on the Amiga.

> The 8080 needed external bank switching hardware to access more than
> 64K, the 8088 could access 1G, and had native 16-bit arithmetic instead
> of having to use subroutines.  The 8080 had *NO* FPU; the 8088's was
> external (8087) but fully integrated into the instruction set.  [It was
> still external with 80286 and 80386, but on-die by the 80486 DX]

I thik it was probably the 80386 that I figured was just about there.

> Amusing trivia:  the 80186 and 80188 designs were started after the
> 80286 design, but shipped first thanks to better CAD tools.  You may
> know the 80188 from some Tandy machines.  I think it was also popular in
> automotive controller designs.

Re: Newbie Netiquette

<mn.6c7b7e65e60409c5.127094@snitoo>

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From: snidely....@gmail.com (Snidely)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 19:07:02 -0700
Organization: Dis One
Lines: 88
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 by: Snidely - Sat, 14 May 2022 02:07 UTC

lar3ryca formulated the question :
> On 2022-05-13 18:13, Snidely wrote:
>> lar3ryca blurted out:
>>> On 2022-05-13 11:04, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> On 13/05/2022 4:37 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:20:31 +0100, Richard Heathfield
>>>>> <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/05/2022 7:48 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
>>>>>>>>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
>>>>>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
>>>>>>>>>> Quote:
>>>>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
>>>>>>>>>> before posting replies.  Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
>>>>>>>>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
>>>>>>>>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
>>>>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by
>>>>>>>>> "officially". Since
>>>>>>>>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make
>>>>>>>>> rules for
>>>>>>>>> everyone to follow?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
>>>>>>>> 1995?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It
>>>>>>> says "Intel Corp." very clearly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And Intel has been around since 1968. The PC was launched in
>>>>>> 1981, as every schoolboy knows, and it was driven by Intel's
>>>>>> 8086, as every schoolboy also knows,
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess you're not a schoolboy. <G> It was the 8088.
>>>>
>>>> And the 8088 was an 8086 in casual dress.
>>>
>>> Which in turn was a slight improvement over the 8080.
>>
>> Are you overestimating the 8080/8085 or underestimating the 8088/8086?
>
> Perhaps neither. Perhaps both. Back in the day, I was not a fan of Intel
> chips, and looked askance at all of them. By the time I considered them to be
> 'just about good enough', I was using Motorola chips. It did not help my view
> of Intel silicon that Microsoft was still stuck in 640K-land and claiming
> that you could not multitask with less than 4MB, while we were doing it in
> 512K on the Amiga.

Plenty of 8086s (and even 8080s) could run real-time kernels (Intel
supplied iRMX80 and iRMX86 for that purpose), so task-switching was
well understood, but memory protection was not built in before the
i286. Xenix 86 needed an interface board between the processor and the
motherboard to provide an external memory protection feature.

>> The 8080 needed external bank switching hardware to access more than 64K,
>> the 8088 could access 1G, and had native 16-bit arithmetic instead of
>> having to use subroutines.  The 8080 had *NO* FPU; the 8088's was external
>> (8087) but fully integrated into the instruction set.  [It was still
>> external with 80286 and 80386, but on-die by the 80486 DX]
>
> I thik it was probably the 80386 that I figured was just about there.

Reasonable. The i286 was not bad, but 32-bit addressing was better
than 24.

>> Amusing trivia:  the 80186 and 80188 designs were started after the 80286
>> design, but shipped first thanks to better CAD tools.  You may know the
>> 80188 from some Tandy machines.  I think it was also popular in automotive
>> controller designs.

/dps

--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 08:44:24 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Sat, 14 May 2022 06:44 UTC

>lar3ryca blurted out:
>> Which in turn was a slight improvement over the 8080.

Fri, 13 May 2022 17:13:06 -0700: Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
scribeva:
>Are you overestimating the 8080/8085 or underestimating the 8088/8086?
>The 8080 needed external bank switching hardware to access more than
>64K, the 8088 could access 1G, /

1 G as in gigabyte? You probably mean megabyte?

>and had native 16-bit arithmetic instead
>of having to use subroutines. The 8080 had *NO* FPU; the 8088's was
>external (8087) but fully integrated into the instruction set. [It was
>still external with 80286 and 80386, but on-die by the 80486 DX]

Re: Newbie Netiquette

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Newbie Netiquette
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 09:44:20 +0100
Organization: Dis
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Sat, 14 May 2022 08:44 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:37:18 -0700
Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:20:31 +0100, Richard Heathfield
> <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >On 13/05/2022 7:48 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2022-05-13 06:14:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
> >>
> >>> Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:46 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
> >>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2022-05-12 13:45:59 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Netiquette as officially defined already in October 1995, 26.5
> >>>>> years ago, in RFC1855, weblink
> >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855 .
> >>>>> Quote:
> >>>>> => >>>>> Read all of a discussion in progress (we call this a thread)
> >>>>> before posting replies.  Avoid posting "Me Too" messages,
> >>>>> where content is limited to agreement with previous posts.
> >>>>> Content of a follow-up post should exceed quoted content.
> >>>>> => >>>>>
> >>>>> I didn't write that. But I did and do agree with it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't disagree, but I do wonder what you mean by
> >>>> "officially". Since
> >>>> when did the Intel Corporation have the authority to make
> >>>> rules for
> >>>> everyone to follow?
> >>>
> >>> RFCs are not specifically made by Intel. Did Intel exist at all in
> >>> 1995?
> >>
> >> Ah. So you didn't actually read the document you were quoting. It
> >> says "Intel Corp." very clearly.
> >
> >And Intel has been around since 1968. The PC was launched in
> >1981, as every schoolboy knows, and it was driven by Intel's
> >8086, as every schoolboy also knows,
>
> I guess you're not a schoolboy. <G> It was the 8088.
>
Aye. 5MHz was enough back in the day! (No, it really wasn't).

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

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