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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

SubjectAuthor
* Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistspains...@gmail.com
 |`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | ||+- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | ||`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isoccam
 | || +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistAthel Cornish-Bowden
 | || |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | || +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isoccam
 | || ||`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isoccam
 | || || | `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPaul Wolff
 | || || |  |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |  ||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  ||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isSilvano
 | || || |  |||+- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |  |||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | || || |  ||||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |  |||||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | || || |  ||||||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |  |||||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  ||||+- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isSilvano
 | || || |  ||||`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  |||| `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistKen Blake
 | || || |  |||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  ||`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPaul Wolff
 | || || |  || +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  || |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |  || ||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  || |||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  || ||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | || || |  || |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  || `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |   +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isoccam
 | || || |   |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |   ||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isoccam
 | || || |   |||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isPeter Moylan
 | || || |   ||||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |   |||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |   ||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |   |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |   `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistbruce bowser
 | || |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isPeter Moylan
 | ||  `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | ||   `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | ||    `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistQuinn C
 | |+- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistAthel Cornish-Bowden
 | |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistAthel Cornish-Bowden
 |  `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isPeter Moylan
 |   +- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistAthel Cornish-Bowden
 |   `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isKerr-Mudd, John
 |    `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isPeter Moylan
 `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
  `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper

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Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 15:19:04 +0000
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Fri, 13 May 2022 15:19 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:59:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 2:34 pm, occam wrote:
> > On 13/05/2022 11:09, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >> On 13/05/2022 9:07 am, occam wrote:
> >>> On 13/05/2022 00:14, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 22:21:44 +0100, Richard Heathfield
> >>>> <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ObSubjectLine: I note that the best evidence presented
> >>>>> so far for the claim that Tucker Carlson is a racist
> >>>>> (about which claim I have no opinion other than that
> >>>>> it is unproved) is a few newspaper articles tucked
> >>>>> behind paywalls; no openly accessible and verifiable
> >>>>> primary sources from Carlson himself whatsoever have
> >>>>> been produced. We are expected to believe he's a
> >>>>> racist because some people have said he is (as if
> >>>>> people never lie about stuff like that). Well, maybe
> >>>>> he is, and maybe he ain't, but I mislaid my
> >>>>> gullibility several decades ago.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't know how to *prove* someone is or isn't a
> >>>> racist.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Of course you can. If that someone - whoever he may be,
> >>> whatever shade of orange he may be - says:
> >>>
> >>> "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their
> >>> best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you.
> >>> They're sending people that have lots of problems, and
> >>> they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing
> >>> drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some,
> >>> I assume, are good people."
> >>>
> >>> You can assume the speaker is not only illiterate, he is
> >>> also a racist.
> >>
> >> No doubt you can source the quote, or it can be dismissed a
> >> la Hitchens's Razor.
> >
> > Source:
> > https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/08/donald-trumps-false-comments-connecting-mexican-immigrants-and-crime/
>
> If you consider the Washington Post (a wholly owned subsidiary of
> Jeff Bezos) to be a reliable source,

Doubtless Heathfield puts his utmost faith in every wholly owned
subsidiary of Rupert Murdoch.

No one -- and the WaPo staff are not exactly shrinking violets --
has ever suggested that Bezos has tried to exercise editorial
control over the newspaper.

> I don't think we're going to
> have a meaningful discussion, BUT I have found other reports of
> the same speech that contain basically the same wording, so I'll
> let it slide. But newspaper reports are *not* primary sources.
> (Far too many people believe what they read in the newspapers.)

Oh, fer chrissake. THERE IS AUDIOVIDEO RECORDING. Is Heathfield
now claiming to be deaf?

> > (BTW, I have moved the discussion from Carlson to Trump. The
> > issue is "how to prove [someone] is a racist.)
>
> Fine by me. I think you'll struggle to prove it, though, because
> "prove" is really too high a bar for anyone but a mathematician.

Wiggle, waggle, copout.

> >> Assuming for the sake of argument that the quoted statement
> >> is genuine, which specific bit of it do you think is
> >> false?
> > The false bits beginning with: "They're sending..."
>
> So the false bits are the bits you think are false. Why? Because
> it's you thinking it? Okay... but if so you'll perhaps forgive me
> for finding your "reasoning" unpersuasive.
>
> > (a Mexican conspiracy) "They're bringing...", "They're
> > rapists" (what, all of them?)
>
> Can it be shown that all illegal immigrants from Mexico to the
> US committed rape in the US? Highly doubtful. So the "they're
> rapists" quote is clearly not 100% accurate, but the question
> then becomes whether it is /partly/ accurate. That is a question
> to which I don't have the answer. Do you? Can you guarantee that
> illegal Mexican immigrants to the USA have never committed and
> will never commit rape while in the USA illegally. Because that's
> what it means to condemn the statement as 100% false.

This seems to be the first occurrence in the thread of "100%."

None is so blind as him who will not see.

Or refuses to look at the evidence.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

<5gts7h9ugkgo4845649lkb3krj7evv80un@4ax.com>

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 12:25:10 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Fri, 13 May 2022 16:25 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:02:30 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>> --
>> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
>
>But mostly misinformation.

I appreciate that slight concession of "mostly". It's true that I
have directed you to a closed business establishment in Jersey City
because that establishment appeared in a listing that was not
up-to-date and that *was* misinformation.

I regret sending you on a wild goose chase in that instance and hope
you have recovered from the ordeal, but I hope you found something
else of interest when on that excursion. Like maybe one of Jersey
City's retention ponds.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

<1r547alot76e6.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
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 by: Quinn C - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:17 UTC

* CDB:

> On 5/13/2022 8:30 AM, CDB wrote:
>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> occam wrote:
>>>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>>>>> I don't know how to *prove* someone is or isn't a racist.
>
>>>> Of course you can. If that someone - whoever he may be, whatever
>>>> shade of orange he may be - says:
>
>>>> "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best.
>>>> They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're
>>>> sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing
>>>> those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing
>>>> crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
>
>>>> You can assume the speaker is not only illiterate, he is also a
>>>> racist.
>
>>> Apart from the last sentence, he was just repeating what Trump
>>> said.
>
>> Tony was quoting Dumpy, not Tucky - including the last sentence.
>
> Sorry, "Ocky was quoting ...".

Ok, Belly.
--
Be afraid of the lame - They'll inherit your legs
Be afraid of the old - They'll inherit your souls
-- Regina Spektor, Après moi

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

<je7mubFf2o4U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: nob...@nowhere.nix (occam)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 20:39:07 +0200
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 by: occam - Fri, 13 May 2022 18:39 UTC

On 13/05/2022 17:19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:59:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 13/05/2022 2:34 pm, occam wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2022 11:09, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> On 13/05/2022 9:07 am, occam wrote:
>>>>> On 13/05/2022 00:14, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 22:21:44 +0100, Richard Heathfield
>>>>>> <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ObSubjectLine: I note that the best evidence presented
>>>>>>> so far for the claim that Tucker Carlson is a racist
>>>>>>> (about which claim I have no opinion other than that
>>>>>>> it is unproved) is a few newspaper articles tucked
>>>>>>> behind paywalls; no openly accessible and verifiable
>>>>>>> primary sources from Carlson himself whatsoever have
>>>>>>> been produced. We are expected to believe he's a
>>>>>>> racist because some people have said he is (as if
>>>>>>> people never lie about stuff like that). Well, maybe
>>>>>>> he is, and maybe he ain't, but I mislaid my
>>>>>>> gullibility several decades ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know how to *prove* someone is or isn't a
>>>>>> racist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course you can. If that someone - whoever he may be,
>>>>> whatever shade of orange he may be - says:
>>>>>
>>>>> "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their
>>>>> best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you.
>>>>> They're sending people that have lots of problems, and
>>>>> they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing
>>>>> drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some,
>>>>> I assume, are good people."
>>>>>
>>>>> You can assume the speaker is not only illiterate, he is
>>>>> also a racist.
>>>>
>>>> No doubt you can source the quote, or it can be dismissed a
>>>> la Hitchens's Razor.
>>>
>>> Source:
>>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/08/donald-trumps-false-comments-connecting-mexican-immigrants-and-crime/
>>
>> If you consider the Washington Post (a wholly owned subsidiary of
>> Jeff Bezos) to be a reliable source,
>
> Doubtless Heathfield puts his utmost faith in every wholly owned
> subsidiary of Rupert Murdoch.
>
> No one -- and the WaPo staff are not exactly shrinking violets --
> has ever suggested that Bezos has tried to exercise editorial
> control over the newspaper.
>
>> I don't think we're going to
>> have a meaningful discussion, BUT I have found other reports of
>> the same speech that contain basically the same wording, so I'll
>> let it slide. But newspaper reports are *not* primary sources.
>> (Far too many people believe what they read in the newspapers.)
>
> Oh, fer chrissake. THERE IS AUDIOVIDEO RECORDING. Is Heathfield
> now claiming to be deaf?
>
>>> (BTW, I have moved the discussion from Carlson to Trump. The
>>> issue is "how to prove [someone] is a racist.)
>>
>> Fine by me. I think you'll struggle to prove it, though, because
>> "prove" is really too high a bar for anyone but a mathematician.
>
> Wiggle, waggle, copout.
>
>>>> Assuming for the sake of argument that the quoted statement
>>>> is genuine, which specific bit of it do you think is
>>>> false?
>>> The false bits beginning with: "They're sending..."
>>
>> So the false bits are the bits you think are false. Why? Because
>> it's you thinking it? Okay... but if so you'll perhaps forgive me
>> for finding your "reasoning" unpersuasive.
>>
>>> (a Mexican conspiracy) "They're bringing...", "They're
>>> rapists" (what, all of them?)
>>
>> Can it be shown that all illegal immigrants from Mexico to the
>> US committed rape in the US? Highly doubtful. So the "they're
>> rapists" quote is clearly not 100% accurate, but the question
>> then becomes whether it is /partly/ accurate. That is a question
>> to which I don't have the answer. Do you? Can you guarantee that
>> illegal Mexican immigrants to the USA have never committed and
>> will never commit rape while in the USA illegally. Because that's
>> what it means to condemn the statement as 100% false.
>
> This seems to be the first occurrence in the thread of "100%."
>
> None is so blind as him who will not see.
>
> Or refuses to look at the evidence.

He is trying to pull my leg, Daniels. He seems to be having more success
with you, however.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 16:08:50 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Fri, 13 May 2022 20:08 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 20:39:07 +0200, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 13/05/2022 17:19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:59:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2022 2:34 pm, occam wrote:
>>>> On 13/05/2022 11:09, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>> On 13/05/2022 9:07 am, occam wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/05/2022 00:14, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 22:21:44 +0100, Richard Heathfield
>>>>>>> <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ObSubjectLine: I note that the best evidence presented
>>>>>>>> so far for the claim that Tucker Carlson is a racist
>>>>>>>> (about which claim I have no opinion other than that
>>>>>>>> it is unproved) is a few newspaper articles tucked
>>>>>>>> behind paywalls; no openly accessible and verifiable
>>>>>>>> primary sources from Carlson himself whatsoever have
>>>>>>>> been produced. We are expected to believe he's a
>>>>>>>> racist because some people have said he is (as if
>>>>>>>> people never lie about stuff like that). Well, maybe
>>>>>>>> he is, and maybe he ain't, but I mislaid my
>>>>>>>> gullibility several decades ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know how to *prove* someone is or isn't a
>>>>>>> racist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course you can. If that someone - whoever he may be,
>>>>>> whatever shade of orange he may be - says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their
>>>>>> best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you.
>>>>>> They're sending people that have lots of problems, and
>>>>>> they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing
>>>>>> drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some,
>>>>>> I assume, are good people."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can assume the speaker is not only illiterate, he is
>>>>>> also a racist.
>>>>>
>>>>> No doubt you can source the quote, or it can be dismissed a
>>>>> la Hitchens's Razor.
>>>>
>>>> Source:
>>>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/08/donald-trumps-false-comments-connecting-mexican-immigrants-and-crime/
>>>
>>> If you consider the Washington Post (a wholly owned subsidiary of
>>> Jeff Bezos) to be a reliable source,
>>
>> Doubtless Heathfield puts his utmost faith in every wholly owned
>> subsidiary of Rupert Murdoch.
>>
>> No one -- and the WaPo staff are not exactly shrinking violets --
>> has ever suggested that Bezos has tried to exercise editorial
>> control over the newspaper.
>>
>>> I don't think we're going to
>>> have a meaningful discussion, BUT I have found other reports of
>>> the same speech that contain basically the same wording, so I'll
>>> let it slide. But newspaper reports are *not* primary sources.
>>> (Far too many people believe what they read in the newspapers.)
>>
>> Oh, fer chrissake. THERE IS AUDIOVIDEO RECORDING. Is Heathfield
>> now claiming to be deaf?
>>
>>>> (BTW, I have moved the discussion from Carlson to Trump. The
>>>> issue is "how to prove [someone] is a racist.)
>>>
>>> Fine by me. I think you'll struggle to prove it, though, because
>>> "prove" is really too high a bar for anyone but a mathematician.
>>
>> Wiggle, waggle, copout.
>>
>>>>> Assuming for the sake of argument that the quoted statement
>>>>> is genuine, which specific bit of it do you think is
>>>>> false?
>>>> The false bits beginning with: "They're sending..."
>>>
>>> So the false bits are the bits you think are false. Why? Because
>>> it's you thinking it? Okay... but if so you'll perhaps forgive me
>>> for finding your "reasoning" unpersuasive.
>>>
>>>> (a Mexican conspiracy) "They're bringing...", "They're
>>>> rapists" (what, all of them?)
>>>
>>> Can it be shown that all illegal immigrants from Mexico to the
>>> US committed rape in the US? Highly doubtful. So the "they're
>>> rapists" quote is clearly not 100% accurate, but the question
>>> then becomes whether it is /partly/ accurate. That is a question
>>> to which I don't have the answer. Do you? Can you guarantee that
>>> illegal Mexican immigrants to the USA have never committed and
>>> will never commit rape while in the USA illegally. Because that's
>>> what it means to condemn the statement as 100% false.
>>
>> This seems to be the first occurrence in the thread of "100%."
>>
>> None is so blind as him who will not see.
>>
>> Or refuses to look at the evidence.
>
>He is trying to pull my leg, Daniels. He seems to be having more success
>with you, however.

What PTD is not recognizing is that Heathfield will pull any chain
left accessible. PTD drags his in a wider arc than Diana's wedding
dress train.

By this time, Heathfield is probably quite aware that Carlson presents
racism in his commentary, and that Trump was after the racist votes.
In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim. He's playing
pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence" and discounting
anything said or written as hearsay.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: bounc...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk (Paul Wolff)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 23:15:36 +0100
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 by: Paul Wolff - Fri, 13 May 2022 22:15 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022, at 16:08:50, Tony Cooper posted:
>On Fri, 13 May 2022 20:39:07 +0200, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>On 13/05/2022 17:19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>> None is so blind as him who will not see.
>>>
>>> Or refuses to look at the evidence.
>>
>>He is trying to pull my leg, Daniels. He seems to be having more success
>>with you, however.
>
>What PTD is not recognizing is that Heathfield will pull any chain
>left accessible. PTD drags his in a wider arc than Diana's wedding
>dress train.
>
>By this time, Heathfield is probably quite aware that Carlson presents
>racism in his commentary, and that Trump was after the racist votes.
>In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim. He's playing
>pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence" and discounting
>anything said or written as hearsay.
>
That is perfectly reasonable, isn't it? It's not for nothing that law
courts decline to admit hearsay evidence. When someone is asked to
produce evidence, and all they can manage is a third-party account of
something that said third party says they saw or heard or read, you have
to wonder why the primary evidence is so elusive.

I'm finding this little spat quite amusing. People's characters are
showing. It's beginning to look to me, a disinterested observer, as if
it's easier to show newsreel footage of Captain Carlsson on the doomed
Flying Enterprise than it is to show footage of the modern Carlson
actually making one of the reported speeches that prove him a racist.
--
Paul

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 00:13:17 +0100
Organization: Fix this later
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Fri, 13 May 2022 23:13 UTC

On 13/05/2022 9:08 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:

<snip>

> In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim.

Indeed. I'm just finding out on what little evidence people
persuade themselves of media claims, and am amused but mildly
appalled to discover that the answer is "almost zero".

> He's playing
> pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence"

I'm not *demanding* evidence. I'm *asking* whether there is any.
Turns out there can't be very much. If there were plenty, it
would be quick and easy to produce some unequivocal primary
sources. Instead, people hand-wave away the need, and expect me
to be convinced by the same hearsay that convinced them.

> and discounting
> anything said or written as hearsay.

There's a reason hearsay is discounted in criminal trials; people
are not above just making stuff up about people they don't like.

If someone were to accuse you of being a racist, I'd want them to
support the claim by producing Usenet articles *you'd* posted,
not by producing article after article after article posted by
other people talking *about* you. I'd have thought this were
common sense, but apparently not.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 00:16:12 +0100
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Fri, 13 May 2022 23:16 UTC

On 13/05/2022 11:15 pm, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022, at 16:08:50, Tony Cooper posted:
>> On Fri, 13 May 2022 20:39:07 +0200, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix>
>> wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2022 17:19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>
>>>> None is so blind as him who will not see.
>>>>
>>>> Or refuses to look at the evidence.
>>>
>>> He is trying to pull my leg, Daniels. He seems to be having
>>> more success
>>> with you, however.
>>
>> What PTD is not recognizing is that Heathfield will pull any chain
>> left accessible.  PTD drags his in a wider arc than Diana's
>> wedding
>> dress train.
>>
>> By this time, Heathfield is probably quite aware that Carlson
>> presents
>> racism in his commentary, and that Trump was after the racist
>> votes.
>> In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim.  He's playing
>> pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence" and discounting
>> anything said or written as hearsay.
>>
> That is perfectly reasonable, isn't it? It's not for nothing that
> law courts decline to admit hearsay evidence. When someone is
> asked to produce evidence, and all they can manage is a
> third-party account of something that said third party says they
> saw or heard or read, you have to wonder why the primary evidence
> is so elusive.

Ah! Someone understands! Most refreshing. Thank you, sir.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 23:51:38 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Sat, 14 May 2022 03:51 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 23:15:36 +0100, Paul Wolff
<bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

>On Fri, 13 May 2022, at 16:08:50, Tony Cooper posted:
>>On Fri, 13 May 2022 20:39:07 +0200, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>On 13/05/2022 17:19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>
>>>> None is so blind as him who will not see.
>>>>
>>>> Or refuses to look at the evidence.
>>>
>>>He is trying to pull my leg, Daniels. He seems to be having more success
>>>with you, however.
>>
>>What PTD is not recognizing is that Heathfield will pull any chain
>>left accessible. PTD drags his in a wider arc than Diana's wedding
>>dress train.
>>
>>By this time, Heathfield is probably quite aware that Carlson presents
>>racism in his commentary, and that Trump was after the racist votes.
>>In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim. He's playing
>>pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence" and discounting
>>anything said or written as hearsay.
>>
>That is perfectly reasonable, isn't it? It's not for nothing that law
>courts decline to admit hearsay evidence. When someone is asked to
>produce evidence, and all they can manage is a third-party account of
>something that said third party says they saw or heard or read, you have
>to wonder why the primary evidence is so elusive.
>
>I'm finding this little spat quite amusing. People's characters are
>showing. It's beginning to look to me, a disinterested observer, as if
>it's easier to show newsreel footage of Captain Carlsson on the doomed
>Flying Enterprise than it is to show footage of the modern Carlson
>actually making one of the reported speeches that prove him a racist.

The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker Carlson's
style. He communicates racism by innuendo, facial gestures, and body
English. You won't catch him making an overtly racist comment, but he
can make a relatively innocuous comment and convey an unmistakable
overtone that is visible to viewer. In print, you don't notice it.

Consider a question like "Why do we prosecute concerned citizens who
protest at our nation's capital but not a mob who burn and loot in
Minneapolis?"

Is there "evidence" in that question that the asker is a racist? The
terms (concerned citizens vs mob and protest vs burn and loot) are
loaded, but it's not overtly racist.

When Tucker delivers that question on television, his facial
expression and emphasis on a word like "mob" makes it clear who he is
identifying as the bad guys.

That technique is part of Tucker's style. Rather than make a
statement, he poses a question but in such a way that we know what his
bias is. TV is visual, and the visual aspect is not just the words.

I suppose that with enough effort, video clips can be found and linked
to, but to what end?

Those of us in the US who have some exposure to Tucker from clips
don't need to be convinced. We're not marking and saving those clips
to provide "evidence" to convince Heathfield.

Frankly, who cares what Heathfield thinks on this issue? What's
gained if we could convince him?

I don't think he'd admit if he was convinced that Tucker is a racist.
That would end the game he's playing here.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: nob...@nowhere.nix (occam)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 08:38:46 +0200
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 by: occam - Sat, 14 May 2022 06:38 UTC

On 14/05/2022 01:13, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 9:08 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim.
>
> Indeed. I'm just finding out on what little evidence people persuade
> themselves of media claims, and am amused but mildly appalled to
> discover that the answer is "almost zero".
>
>> He's playing
>> pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence"
>
> I'm not *demanding* evidence. I'm *asking* whether there is any. Turns
> out there can't be very much. If there were plenty, it would be quick
> and easy to produce some unequivocal primary sources. Instead, people
> hand-wave away the need, and expect me to be convinced by the same
> hearsay that convinced them.
>
>> and discounting
>> anything said or written as hearsay.
>
> There's a reason hearsay is discounted in criminal trials; people are
> not above just making stuff up about people they don't like.
>
> If someone were to accuse you of being a racist, I'd want them to
> support the claim by producing Usenet articles *you'd* posted, not by
> producing article after article after article posted by other people
> talking *about* you. I'd have thought this were common sense, but
> apparently not.
>

Yet you discount an article written by the Washington Post (my URL) -
quoting verbatim something Trump said, as an 'unreliable source'.
Neither you nor I attend Trumps speeches (primary source), but when a
serious newspaper *quotes* (not just reports) something the President of
the USA has said, you dismiss that as unreliable information. I do not
regard that as 'common sense' on your part. It is delusional, verging on
paranoia. (Shades of your Brexit stance here, not that long ago.)

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 08:47:23 +0100
Organization: Fix this later
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Sat, 14 May 2022 07:47 UTC

On 14/05/2022 7:38 am, occam wrote:
> On 14/05/2022 01:13, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 13/05/2022 9:08 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim.
>>
>> Indeed. I'm just finding out on what little evidence people persuade
>> themselves of media claims, and am amused but mildly appalled to
>> discover that the answer is "almost zero".
>>
>>> He's playing
>>> pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence"
>>
>> I'm not *demanding* evidence. I'm *asking* whether there is any. Turns
>> out there can't be very much. If there were plenty, it would be quick
>> and easy to produce some unequivocal primary sources. Instead, people
>> hand-wave away the need, and expect me to be convinced by the same
>> hearsay that convinced them.
>>
>>> and discounting
>>> anything said or written as hearsay.
>>
>> There's a reason hearsay is discounted in criminal trials; people are
>> not above just making stuff up about people they don't like.
>>
>> If someone were to accuse you of being a racist, I'd want them to
>> support the claim by producing Usenet articles *you'd* posted, not by
>> producing article after article after article posted by other people
>> talking *about* you. I'd have thought this were common sense, but
>> apparently not.
>>
>
> Yet you discount an article written by the Washington Post (my URL) -

No. I think the Post is an unreliable source, but I don't
discount unreliable sources; I just question them, asking for
support from primary sources. Don't you question sources you
consider unreliable? Do you just believe anything you read in the
Post and expect others to do likewise?

> quoting verbatim something Trump said, as an 'unreliable source'.

If it's verbatim, a primary source is there to be produced, so
where is it?

> Neither you nor I attend Trumps speeches (primary source),

A video of Trump would qualify, I think, considering how
difficult it would be to fake.

> but when a
> serious newspaper *quotes* (not just reports) something the President of
> the USA has said, you dismiss that as unreliable information.

I've found what appear to be independent corroborations of that
quote from other sources, so I'm prepared to agree that the quote
is probably genuine, although people have yet to indicate
anything inaccurate about the speech except for one
generalisation (clearly "they're rapists" is an overstatement of
the case, as "they" are not likely *all* to be rapists).

> I do not
> regard that as 'common sense' on your part. It is delusional, verging on
> paranoia. (Shades of your Brexit stance here, not that long ago.)

You think someone who doesn't share your political outlook must
be delusional? Ho hum.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: Silv...@noncisonopernessuno.it (Silvano)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 10:50:26 +0200
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 by: Silvano - Sat, 14 May 2022 08:50 UTC

Tony Cooper hat am 14.05.2022 um 05:51 geschrieben:
> The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker Carlson's
> style. He communicates racism by innuendo, facial gestures, and body
> English.

Can you please explain to a foreigner what "body English" means?

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 10:02:56 +0100
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Sat, 14 May 2022 09:02 UTC

On 14/05/2022 9:50 am, Silvano wrote:
> Tony Cooper hat am 14.05.2022 um 05:51 geschrieben:
>> The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker Carlson's
>> style. He communicates racism by innuendo, facial gestures, and body
>> English.
>
> Can you please explain to a foreigner what "body English" means?

Noun

body English (uncountable)

(idiomatic) A body motion made to coax an object already
propelled go in a desired direction. For example, a nervous
leaning or twisting movement while playing sports such as golf or
bowling, to "persuade" the ball to go in a desired direction.
Also applies to various riding sports, such as motorcycling or
surfing.

I presume the conclusion we are expected to draw is that golfers
are racists.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
> ealing escape!

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: nob...@nowhere.nix (occam)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 11:43:50 +0200
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 by: occam - Sat, 14 May 2022 09:43 UTC

On 14/05/2022 09:47, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 14/05/2022 7:38 am, occam wrote:
>> On 14/05/2022 01:13, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2022 9:08 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim.
>>>
>>> Indeed. I'm just finding out on what little evidence people persuade
>>> themselves of media claims, and am amused but mildly appalled to
>>> discover that the answer is "almost zero".
>>>
>>>> He's playing
>>>> pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence"
>>>
>>> I'm not *demanding* evidence. I'm *asking* whether there is any. Turns
>>> out there can't be very much. If there were plenty, it would be quick
>>> and easy to produce some unequivocal primary sources. Instead, people
>>> hand-wave away the need, and expect me to be convinced by the same
>>> hearsay that convinced them.
>>>
>>>> and discounting
>>>> anything said or written as hearsay.
>>>
>>> There's a reason hearsay is discounted in criminal trials; people are
>>> not above just making stuff up about people they don't like.
>>>
>>> If someone were to accuse you of being a racist, I'd want them to
>>> support the claim by producing Usenet articles *you'd* posted, not by
>>> producing article after article after article posted by other people
>>> talking *about* you. I'd have thought this were common sense, but
>>> apparently not.
>>>
>>
>> Yet you discount an article written by the Washington Post (my URL) -
>
> No. I think the Post is an unreliable source, but I don't discount
> unreliable sources; I just question them, asking for support from
> primary sources. Don't you question sources you consider unreliable? Do
> you just believe anything you read in the Post and expect others to do
> likewise?
>
>> quoting verbatim something Trump said, as an 'unreliable source'.
>
> If it's verbatim, a primary source is there to be produced, so where is it?
>
>> Neither you nor I attend Trumps speeches (primary source),
>
> A video of Trump would qualify, I think, considering how difficult it
> would be to fake.$

Videos can also be faked, as can voice recordings, photos and any mass
medium you care to mention.

>
>> but when a
>> serious newspaper *quotes* (not just reports) something the President of
>> the USA has said, you dismiss that as unreliable information.
>
> I've found what appear to be independent corroborations of that quote
> from other sources, so I'm prepared to agree that the quote is probably
> genuine, although people have yet to indicate anything inaccurate about
> the speech except for one generalisation (clearly "they're rapists" is
> an overstatement of the case, as "they" are not likely *all* to be
> rapists).
>
>> I do not
>> regard that as 'common sense' on your part. It is delusional, verging on
>> paranoia. (Shades of your Brexit stance here, not that long ago.)
>
> You think someone who doesn't share your political outlook must be
> delusional? Ho hum.
>

No, but someone who sees evidence but claims it to be 'fake' - despite
an overwhelming evidence to the contrary - would be. Examples are
aplenty: 1- Flat Earthers who refuse to believe photographs from space;
2- Moon landing conspiracy theorists who think the landing was a studio
hoax; 3- Brexiters who see the writing on the side of a Conservative
campaign bus (“We send the EU £350 million a week, let’s fund our NHS
instead”.) but who insist Boris did not lie; etc.

You need to study epistemology before you draw arbitrary lines between
what is acceptable proof ("A video of Trump") and what is unacceptable
(an article by a respectable national newspaper, such as the Washington
Post). Where YOU draw the line is indicative of the level of
unjustified suspicion ("paranoia") you suffer from.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 20:05:48 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Sat, 14 May 2022 10:05 UTC

On 14/05/22 19:43, occam wrote:
> On 14/05/2022 09:47, Richard Heathfield wrote:

>> You think someone who doesn't share your political outlook must be
>> delusional? Ho hum.
>
> No, but someone who sees evidence but claims it to be 'fake' -
> despite an overwhelming evidence to the contrary - would be. Examples
> are aplenty: 1- Flat Earthers who refuse to believe photographs from
> space; 2- Moon landing conspiracy theorists who think the landing was
> a studio hoax; 3- Brexiters who see the writing on the side of a
> Conservative campaign bus (“We send the EU £350 million a week, let’s
> fund our NHS instead”.) but who insist Boris did not lie; etc.
>
> You need to study epistemology before you draw arbitrary lines
> between what is acceptable proof ("A video of Trump") and what is
> unacceptable (an article by a respectable national newspaper, such as
> the Washington Post). Where YOU draw the line is indicative of the
> level of unjustified suspicion ("paranoia") you suffer from.

In the case of Tucker Carlson, the primary evidence is Carlson's own TV
broadcasts. (And I'm not the first in this thread to say that.) I
haven't watched them because I'm unwilling to contribute to the profits
of Faux News. Richard obviously hasn't watched them, probably because he
believes that on-line streaming can be faked.

In the final analysis, there is no way to prove anything at all. (Even
"je pense, donc je suis" uses faulty reasoning.) Maybe the earth really
is round and there is such a thing as the northern hemisphere, but I
have not seen conclusive evidence of that.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 11:34:35 +0100
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Sat, 14 May 2022 10:34 UTC

On 14/05/2022 10:43 am, occam wrote:
>
> On 14/05/2022 09:47, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 14/05/2022 7:38 am, occam wrote:
>>> On 14/05/2022 01:13, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> On 13/05/2022 9:08 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed. I'm just finding out on what little evidence people persuade
>>>> themselves of media claims, and am amused but mildly appalled to
>>>> discover that the answer is "almost zero".
>>>>
>>>>> He's playing
>>>>> pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence"
>>>>
>>>> I'm not *demanding* evidence. I'm *asking* whether there is any. Turns
>>>> out there can't be very much. If there were plenty, it would be quick
>>>> and easy to produce some unequivocal primary sources. Instead, people
>>>> hand-wave away the need, and expect me to be convinced by the same
>>>> hearsay that convinced them.
>>>>
>>>>> and discounting
>>>>> anything said or written as hearsay.
>>>>
>>>> There's a reason hearsay is discounted in criminal trials; people are
>>>> not above just making stuff up about people they don't like.
>>>>
>>>> If someone were to accuse you of being a racist, I'd want them to
>>>> support the claim by producing Usenet articles *you'd* posted, not by
>>>> producing article after article after article posted by other people
>>>> talking *about* you. I'd have thought this were common sense, but
>>>> apparently not.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yet you discount an article written by the Washington Post (my URL) -
>>
>> No. I think the Post is an unreliable source, but I don't discount
>> unreliable sources; I just question them, asking for support from
>> primary sources. Don't you question sources you consider unreliable? Do
>> you just believe anything you read in the Post and expect others to do
>> likewise?
>>
>>> quoting verbatim something Trump said, as an 'unreliable source'.
>>
>> If it's verbatim, a primary source is there to be produced, so where is it?
>>
>>> Neither you nor I attend Trumps speeches (primary source),
>>
>> A video of Trump would qualify, I think, considering how difficult it
>> would be to fake.$
>
> Videos can also be faked, as can voice recordings, photos and any mass
> medium you care to mention.

Yes, but videos are the hardest to fake convincingly, especially
if there are other videos of the same event out there that are
outside the faker's control.

>>> but when a
>>> serious newspaper *quotes* (not just reports) something the President of
>>> the USA has said, you dismiss that as unreliable information.
>>
>> I've found what appear to be independent corroborations of that quote
>> from other sources, so I'm prepared to agree that the quote is probably
>> genuine, although people have yet to indicate anything inaccurate about
>> the speech except for one generalisation (clearly "they're rapists" is
>> an overstatement of the case, as "they" are not likely *all* to be
>> rapists).
>>
>>> I do not
>>> regard that as 'common sense' on your part. It is delusional, verging on
>>> paranoia. (Shades of your Brexit stance here, not that long ago.)
>>
>> You think someone who doesn't share your political outlook must be
>> delusional? Ho hum.
>>
>
> No, but someone who sees evidence but claims it to be 'fake' - despite
> an overwhelming evidence to the contrary - would be.

As far as I'm aware nobody has claimed the Trump quote is "fake";
all I've done is ask for direct evidence that it's genuine.

> Examples are
> aplenty: 1- Flat Earthers who refuse to believe photographs from space;
> 2- Moon landing conspiracy theorists who think the landing was a studio
> hoax; 3- Brexiters who see the writing on the side of a Conservative
> campaign bus (“We send the EU £350 million a week, let’s fund our NHS
> instead”.) but who insist Boris did not lie; etc.

1/2) In our Photoshop days it's easy to believe that the moon
landings and photographs of Earth from space were faked, but
people who do so conveniently forget that in 1969 we simply
didn't have the required amount of computing power or the
sophisticated software needed for producing a convincing fake.
There's a movie producer out there somewhere (YouTube, I think)
who made a video explaining all the technical movie-making
reasons why we *couldn't* have faked the moon landings.

Ah! Here. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_loUDS4c3Cs>

3) If you say a politician lied, I will not trouble myself to
dispute it, because in my view that's the kind of thing
politicians do. If you say that by lying Boris tricked you into
voting for Brexit, I will smile wryly at your gullibility. If you
say others were so fooled in sufficient numbers to affect the
outcome, I will point out that I have yet to find a single person
who admits to being so fooled.

>
> You need to study epistemology before you draw arbitrary lines between
> what is acceptable proof ("A video of Trump") and what is unacceptable
> (an article by a respectable national newspaper, such as the Washington
> Post).

Perhaps we disagree on the meaning of "proof".

An article by a national newspaper you respect is clearly
acceptable *evidence*. I draw a distinction between "evidence"
and "proof". Don't you?

From fiction:

Jim Rockford lifts a book of matches from a crime scene because
its presence implicates his friend Sgt Dennis Becker in a murder.
Becker is appalled at what Rockford has done. Rockford says it's
an obvious plant, but Becker berates him: "Of course it's a
plant, but it's still *evidence*!"

Becker (who knows he didn't commit the murder) clearly
understands the difference between evidence and proof.

> Where YOU draw the line is indicative of the level of
> unjustified suspicion ("paranoia") you suffer from.

Again, we disagree on the meaning of "proof". Your bar seems to
be rather lower than mine.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 11:43:06 +0100
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Sat, 14 May 2022 10:43 UTC

On 14/05/2022 11:05 am, Peter Moylan wrote:

<snip>

> In the case of Tucker Carlson, the primary evidence is Carlson's
> own TV
> broadcasts. (And I'm not the first in this thread to say that.) I
> haven't watched them because I'm unwilling to contribute to the
> profits
> of Faux News. Richard obviously hasn't watched them, probably
> because he
> believes that on-line streaming can be faked.

No, Richard hasn't watched them because nobody has posted a
reference to a relevant clip. Richard's not going to waste hours
sifting through J Random American's pontifications just on the
off-chance that Richard might see something that might be
interpreted as racist.

It's akin to claiming that [prolific writer] is Xphobic and
saying "if you don't believe me, go read [prolific writer]".

> In the final analysis, there is no way to prove anything at all.
> (Even
> "je pense, donc je suis" uses faulty reasoning.) Maybe the earth
> really
> is round and there is such a thing as the northern hemisphere, but I
> have not seen conclusive evidence of that.

For the Earth to have a northern hemisphere, it would have to be
a sphere, which it clearly isn't. Not only is there the "oblate"
factor to consider, but there is also the little matter of Scotland.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 08:06:14 -0400
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 by: CDB - Sat, 14 May 2022 12:06 UTC

On 5/14/2022 4:50 AM, Silvano wrote:
> Tony Cooper hat geschrieben:

>> The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker
>> Carlson's style. He communicates racism by innuendo, facial
>> gestures, and body English.

> Can you please explain to a foreigner what "body English" means?

RichardH has given you the correct definition of "body English", but you
should know that Tony misspoke: he should have said "body language".

"Definition of body language
: the gestures, movements, and mannerisms by which a person or animal
communicates with others
Examples of body language in a Sentence
We could tell from his body language that he was nervous.
Recent Examples on the Web
Pay attention to their body language, eye contact and other cues along
with their words.
— Gloria Horsley, Forbes, 18 Apr. 2022
Because candidates' statements are usually vacuous, journalists tend to
emphasize superficial qualities of vocal tone, body language, or diction.
— Samuel Goldman, The Week, 15 Apr. 2022
James could have talked about his body language, which often betrayed
his lack of confidence in his less-talented teammates.
— Dylan Hernándezcolumnist, Los Angeles Times, 11 Apr. 2022"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/body%20language

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 13:39:32 +0100
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Sat, 14 May 2022 12:39 UTC

On 14/05/2022 1:06 pm, CDB wrote:
> On 5/14/2022 4:50 AM, Silvano wrote:
>> Tony Cooper hat geschrieben:
>
>>> The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker
>>> Carlson's style.  He communicates racism by innuendo, facial
>>> gestures, and body English.
>
>> Can you please explain to a foreigner what "body English" means?
>
> RichardH has given you the correct definition of "body English",
> but you
> should know that Tony misspoke: he should have said "body language".

Aye. We know Carlson's racist because although he might not
actually say anything racist he don't 'arf *look* racist to me,
guvnor, and a nod's as good as a wink to a blind 'orse, eh? White
bloke in a smart suit, and on telly to boot? No-brainer.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: Silv...@noncisonopernessuno.it (Silvano)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 14:49:33 +0200
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 by: Silvano - Sat, 14 May 2022 12:49 UTC

CDB hat am 14.05.2022 um 14:06 geschrieben:
> On 5/14/2022 4:50 AM, Silvano wrote:
>> Tony Cooper hat geschrieben:
>
>>> The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker
>>> Carlson's style. He communicates racism by innuendo, facial
>>> gestures, and body English.
>
>> Can you please explain to a foreigner what "body English" means?
>
> RichardH has given you the correct definition of "body English", but you
> should know that Tony misspoke: he should have said "body language".

Thank you and RichardH. I'd have known what Tony meant, if he had
written "body language".

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 08:50:51 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Sat, 14 May 2022 12:50 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 08:06:14 -0400, CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/14/2022 4:50 AM, Silvano wrote:
>> Tony Cooper hat geschrieben:
>
>>> The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker
>>> Carlson's style. He communicates racism by innuendo, facial
>>> gestures, and body English.
>
>> Can you please explain to a foreigner what "body English" means?
>
>RichardH has given you the correct definition of "body English", but you
>should know that Tony misspoke: he should have said "body language".

Yes, that is the term I was thinking of.

>
>"Definition of body language
>: the gestures, movements, and mannerisms by which a person or animal
>communicates with others
>Examples of body language in a Sentence
> We could tell from his body language that he was nervous.
>Recent Examples on the Web
>Pay attention to their body language, eye contact and other cues along
>with their words.
>— Gloria Horsley, Forbes, 18 Apr. 2022
>Because candidates' statements are usually vacuous, journalists tend to
>emphasize superficial qualities of vocal tone, body language, or diction.
>— Samuel Goldman, The Week, 15 Apr. 2022
>James could have talked about his body language, which often betrayed
>his lack of confidence in his less-talented teammates.
>— Dylan Hernándezcolumnist, Los Angeles Times, 11 Apr. 2022"
>
>https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/body%20language
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 09:19:38 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:19 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 10:50:26 +0200, Silvano
<Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

>Tony Cooper hat am 14.05.2022 um 05:51 geschrieben:
>> The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker Carlson's
>> style. He communicates racism by innuendo, facial gestures, and body
>> English.
>
>Can you please explain to a foreigner what "body English" means?

If you have read CDB's post, you now know that 1) I should have
written "body language", and 2) what it is.

An example with Tucker is when he combines a statement with a physical
movement that contributes to how the statement is to be taken.

He might say:

Is it police brutality when a officer of the law uses force to detain
a criminal who is being arrested?

As he says that, he might shrug his shoulders in a gesture that
communicates that "Of course force is needed".

Tucker will refer to "force", not "excessive force" which is the real
issue. That insinuates that there's no difference between force and
excessive force.

The question, rather than the statement, is a technique of Tucker's.
He's not making an overt comment that can be construed as being
racist, but he's asking a question that allows the racist viewer to
know he's in agreement with them.

You'll note that there's nothing in that question that says that
Tucker is referring to Black criminals. Just criminals. His viewers,
though, know that he's referring to instances like George Floyd (a
Black man who died while being arrested).


--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 09:24:16 -0400
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 by: CDB - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:24 UTC

On 5/14/2022 8:39 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Silvano wrote:
>>> Tony Cooper hat geschrieben:

>>>> The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker
>>>> Carlson's style. He communicates racism by innuendo, facial
>>>> gestures, and body English.

>>> Can you please explain to a foreigner what "body English" means?

>> RichardH has given you the correct definition of "body English",
>> but you should know that Tony misspoke: he should have said "body
>> language".

> Aye. We know Carlson's racist because although he might not actually
> say anything racist he don't 'arf *look* racist to me, guvnor, and a
> nod's as good as a wink to a blind 'orse, eh? White bloke in a smart
> suit, and on telly to boot? No-brainer.

I waded through fifteen minutes of Cucker, to find that he had *said*
nothing that would convince you he is racist (He was going on about
Biden's new spokesperson, who is female, Black, and Lesbian). As others
have said, he communicates by innuendo.

I find I don't care if he's racist or not; I wouldn't let him shelter in
my house during a blizzard.

--
Make yourself a quinzee, Fucker.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 14:37:27 +0100
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:37 UTC

On 14/05/2022 2:24 pm, CDB wrote:

<snip>

>
> I waded through fifteen minutes of Cucker, to find that he had
> *said*
> nothing that would convince you he is racist (He was going on about
> Biden's new spokesperson, who is female, Black, and Lesbian).  As
> others
> have said, he communicates by innuendo.

Does he.

> I find I don't care if he's racist or not; I wouldn't let him
> shelter in
>  my house during a blizzard.

Perhaps I'm being unfair to the man but he seems to me to be so
plastic that he wouldn't need to shelter during a blizzard.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 14:33 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 6:23:31 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022, at 16:08:50, Tony Cooper posted:
> >On Fri, 13 May 2022 20:39:07 +0200, occam <nob...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >>On 13/05/2022 17:19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> >>> None is so blind as him who will not see.
> >>> Or refuses to look at the evidence.
> >>He is trying to pull my leg, Daniels. He seems to be having more success
> >>with you, however.
> >What PTD is not recognizing is that Heathfield will pull any chain
> >left accessible. PTD drags his in a wider arc than Diana's wedding
> >dress train.

Cooper now claims that Heathfield is a clone of Cooper himself.

> >By this time, Heathfield is probably quite aware that Carlson presents
> >racism in his commentary, and that Trump was after the racist votes.

Yet he continues to deny those two truths.

> >In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim. He's playing
> >pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence" and discounting
> >anything said or written as hearsay.

No, he does not in fact play your game. He buries his head in the
sand, and/or sticks fingers in his ears and goes la-la-la-la.

> That is perfectly reasonable, isn't it? It's not for nothing that law
> courts decline to admit hearsay evidence. When someone is asked to
> produce evidence, and all they can manage is a third-party account of
> something that said third party says they saw or heard or read, you have
> to wonder why the primary evidence is so elusive.

You're not actually believing that something Anthony Cooper says
about me is truthful, are you? The radio interview includes audio
clips of Tucker Carlson that condemn him out of his own mouth,
and the newspaper articles presumably include extended quotations.

> I'm finding this little spat quite amusing. People's characters are
> showing. It's beginning to look to me, a disinterested observer, as if
> it's easier to show newsreel footage of Captain Carlsson on the doomed
> Flying Enterprise than it is to show footage of the modern Carlson
> actually making one of the reported speeches that prove him a racist.

The New York Times team were forced to watch 1100 hours of that
spew. They could not present all 1100 examples of racist assertions,
so they presented a judicious selection.

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