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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

SubjectAuthor
* An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
| +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencespains...@gmail.com
| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|    |   |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |     `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|     `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|      +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|      |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|      | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAdam Funk
|      | | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|      |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      |  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|      |  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat
|       | ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceLewis
|       | | ||  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | | |||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceGordonD
|       | | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJoy Beeson
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|       | | ||   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRichard Heathfield
|       | | ||   | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJanet
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMack A. Damia
|       | | |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|       | |   | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |  |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAnders D. Nygaard
|       | |   |  | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |  |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|       | |   |  |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |   |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |   |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   |    ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | |   |    || +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |    || `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMadhu
|       | |   |    |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |   |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|       | |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |    |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||| `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSilvano
|       | |    ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStoat
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | |    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat

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Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<dog-20220513134656@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: 13 May 2022 12:51:09 GMT
Organization: Stefan Ram
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 by: Stefan Ram - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:51 UTC

Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> writes:
>What is the probability of the French word for dog being "chien"?

Of course, the question is too vague.

But, one may be able to say that "dog" could be

a (male) /Canis familiaris/: Fr "chien"
a female /Canis familiaris/: Fr "chienne"
a male /Canidae/: Fr "mâle"
a person: for example, "lucky dog" -> Fr "veinard(e)"
a person regarded as unattractive: Fr "moche"
a clamp: Fr "crampon"
...

And one may ask, "When taken from a given collection of
English texts, what is the probability that this instance
(work token) of 'dog' will be translated with 'chien'?".

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<bf86c06c-7df3-4e63-992b-92d191b51b4cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Fri, 13 May 2022 14:34 UTC

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 9:27:31 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote on 5/12/2022 :
> > On Thu, 12 May 2022 09:32:55 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> > <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> >> There are considerable variations even between British and American
> >> English.
> > Many people say much the same thing; some even say they are two
> > different languages.

Not surprisingly, Churchill said it better. (Or Shaw, Or Wilde.)

> > I disagree. Yes, there are some variations, but far from
> > "considerable." There's an occasional BrE word used here that I don't
> > understand, but very few.
> > To me the bigger difference between AmE and BrE is in pronunciation,
> > and even that varies with the part of the US or UK. I think I
> > mentioned here before that when I saw the movie "The Full Monty," I
> > could understand only every third word (and that word was "fook").
>
> I've been watching various ootewbs and the occasional pronunciation
> difference can stand out for me.
>
> One of the Tewbers is an educated Brit (in fact, PhD astrophysics) who
> says "distr BEWT" (emm fassis on the last sill labble) compared to my
> "dis TRIB bewt". I think our "distr BEWT shun" matches rather.

On the Beeb they routinely say "CON-tri-byoot" for "con-TRIB-yoot."
Anglists might be able to tell you what happened, but it's pervasive.
(Odds are the AmE version is older and the BrE version is innovative,
because of the "center - periphery" phenomenon -- peripheral dialects
are less likely to host changes. Loss of post-vocalic r is a great
example. Never caught on here.)

> Another tewber is a [further research needed, but unlikely to be
> American] who names the engine [and car] manufacturer as "pack CARD" vs
> my "PACK urd", although the quality of the 'a' in "pack" and "PACK"
> seems to match.

Remember, they also think "Chrysler" has a /z/ in the middle.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<87cd7fea-eb13-4bf1-b90d-1c123413e4dan@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Fri, 13 May 2022 14:36 UTC

Le vendredi 13 mai 2022 à 02:39:54 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> On 13/05/2022 4:01 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> > Le jeudi 12 mai 2022 à 17:08:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:27:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >>> Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 13:45:26 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> >>>> On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Oh by the way -- OED online is so full of stuff -- English did actually
> >>>> borrow both charet(te) for the vehicle and chareter for the driver, from
> >>>> Standard French, but neither survived into modern times.
> >>>> If "the odds
> >>>>> are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
> >>>>> pairs of words. Can you name just one?
> >>>> Why should there be dozens?
> >>>
> >>> If the odds of something happening are high, shouldn't there exist
> >>> numerous instances of it?
> >> How do you know there aren't?
> >
> > Again, name them.
> >
> >>>> And why should we have to search for them?
> >>>
> >>> Precisely to prove their postulated existence, in this case.
> >
> >> But ... who cares???
> >
> > This topic is about what I deem to be a rare, improbable occurrence.
> You are working with a very strange concept of "probability".
> What is the probability of the French word for dog being "chien"?
> Why, it must be hugely improbable -- just think of all the other forms
> it might have had! One in a million, surely. Or what about the amazing
> fact that "god" is "dog" spelled backwards?
>
> The world is full of extremely "improbable" things like that, whose
> improbability is of no interest. They are just facts.
>
> You start with another fact - that the words for "female cart-driver"
> and "garter" in French are distinguished only by their initial
> consonants -- and in fact just by the feature of voice. Nothing
> remarkable in that -- there are lots of minimal pairs in French.
> (jarre/carre, jase/case took me about a minute to find in a dictionary,
> without straying very far from your example).

[ʒ] and [k] pairs are indeed easier to find, but my point was about
French [ʃ] / [ʒ] pairs. On second thoughts, there are some indeed,
such as "chatte"/"jatte", "chute"/"jute", "shit"/"gîte", but with no
matches in English.

>
> But now you find that the words "carter" and "garter" in English are
> also a minimal pair, and distinguished by the feature of voice.
> If you had found such a corresponding pair in Mongolian or Walbiri, it
> would have been a genuine coincidence -- but no more than amusing.
> Nothing would follow from it.
>
> But here we're talking about English and French, and (as has been
> pointed out) the similarity of form between the two pairs of words, and
> the phonological contrast in each pair, is _not_ coincidental. The words
> are in fact historically related, and come from roots -- respectively
> *kar and *gar -- distinguished by the feature of voice! The initial
> consonants have been preserved in the English words, and subject to
> regular sound change in the French (still preserving the voice
> contrast).

The regular sound change in the French is from [ʒ] to [j], but what I find
stunning is that the initial English pair of [k] / [g] gave way to the [ʒ] / [j]
pair in French, which is phonetically unrelated to it but does retain the
voice contrast. Whether the retention was intentional or fortuitous is
beyond my grasp, though.

> Nothing to do with coincidence.
> > Providing examples showing that it's actually common would
> > therefore seem quite relevant to prove me wrong, as you intend
> > to.
> How many examples there are is of no more interest than the one example
> we have.
> >
> >> It's just now language contact works.
> >
> >>>> How long a list of French ch-/j- pairs do you have?
> >>>
> >>> There are hardly any others that I can think of, which makes
> >>> the coincidence with English greater.
> >> Nonsense. It makes the regular relationship with English jusr
> >> about inevitable.
> >
> > Wrong, that's basic statistics. The more such pairs of words in
> > French, the greater the odds of having matches in English.
> > In this case, I can think of only one pair, and you haven't
> > been able to find others.
> >
> >>>> Summary: Yes, it's a coincidence, but not one I find of any linguistic
> >>>> interest.
> >>>
> >>> Yet a stunning, arguably worth mentioning one IMO.
> >> There is nothing "stunning" about it at all.
> >>
> >> [me:]
> >>>>>> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
> >>>>>> other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
> >>>>>> your problem.
> >>>>> What has that to do with anything?
> >> You're barking up a very wrong tree.
> >
> > ?
> >

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Fri, 13 May 2022 14:36 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:08:22 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-7, Bebercito wrote:

> > Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> > only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> > and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
> > Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> > "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> > and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
> > Isn't that weird?
>
> Not if they came from those French words.
>
> This is a curious coincidence:
> English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY have the same two meanings:
> 1) Beloved
> 2) Expensive

French CHER as well. It's beginning to look non-coincidental, no?

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Quinn C - Fri, 13 May 2022 16:14 UTC

* Snidely:

> One of the Tewbers is an educated Brit (in fact, PhD astrophysics) who
> says "distr BEWT" (emm fassis on the last sill labble) compared to my
> "dis TRIB bewt". I think our "distr BEWT shun" matches rather.

I'm aware of the dis-TRI-bute stress, but was still working from the
assumption that my DIS-tri-bute is the most standardy standard.

There seems to be some confusion about that - Collins marks the second
syllable as stressed in writing, as the only option, but the recording
has stress on the first syllable (the very first speaker symbol):

<https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/distribute>

Following are DIS-tri-butes, but dis-TRI-buting and dis-TRI-buted.

First syllable stress not in AmE, apparently.
--
Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct
in which the score is kept.
-- Doug Larson

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: lar...@invalid.ca (lar3ryca)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 10:35:08 -0600
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 by: lar3ryca - Fri, 13 May 2022 16:35 UTC

On 2022-05-13 10:14, Quinn C wrote:
> * Snidely:
>
>> One of the Tewbers is an educated Brit (in fact, PhD astrophysics) who
>> says "distr BEWT" (emm fassis on the last sill labble) compared to my
>> "dis TRIB bewt". I think our "distr BEWT shun" matches rather.
>
> I'm aware of the dis-TRI-bute stress, but was still working from the
> assumption that my DIS-tri-bute is the most standardy standard.
>
> There seems to be some confusion about that - Collins marks the second
> syllable as stressed in writing, as the only option, but the recording
> has stress on the first syllable (the very first speaker symbol):
>
> <https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/distribute>
>
> Following are DIS-tri-butes, but dis-TRI-buting and dis-TRI-buted.
>
> First syllable stress not in AmE, apparently.

Nor is it in my English.
This is the first time I have heard (or read about) anyone stressing the
first syllable.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: lar...@invalid.ca (lar3ryca)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 10:40:13 -0600
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 by: lar3ryca - Fri, 13 May 2022 16:40 UTC

On 2022-05-13 10:14, Quinn C wrote:
> * Snidely:
>
>> One of the Tewbers is an educated Brit (in fact, PhD astrophysics) who
>> says "distr BEWT" (emm fassis on the last sill labble) compared to my
>> "dis TRIB bewt". I think our "distr BEWT shun" matches rather.
>
> I'm aware of the dis-TRI-bute stress, but was still working from the
> assumption that my DIS-tri-bute is the most standardy standard.
>
> There seems to be some confusion about that - Collins marks the second
> syllable as stressed in writing, as the only option, but the recording
> has stress on the first syllable (the very first speaker symbol):
>
> <https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/distribute>
>
> Following are DIS-tri-butes, but dis-TRI-buting and dis-TRI-buted.
>
> First syllable stress not in AmE, apparently.

Nor is it in my English.
This is the first time I have heard (or read about) anyone stressing the
first syllable.

--
Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet soup?

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Adam Funk - Fri, 13 May 2022 16:36 UTC

On 2022-05-13, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 9:27:31 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Ken Blake wrote on 5/12/2022 :
>> > On Thu, 12 May 2022 09:32:55 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> > <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> >> There are considerable variations even between British and American
>> >> English.
>> > Many people say much the same thing; some even say they are two
>> > different languages.
>
> Not surprisingly, Churchill said it better. (Or Shaw, Or Wilde.)
>
>> > I disagree. Yes, there are some variations, but far from
>> > "considerable." There's an occasional BrE word used here that I don't
>> > understand, but very few.
>> > To me the bigger difference between AmE and BrE is in pronunciation,
>> > and even that varies with the part of the US or UK. I think I
>> > mentioned here before that when I saw the movie "The Full Monty," I
>> > could understand only every third word (and that word was "fook").
>>
>> I've been watching various ootewbs and the occasional pronunciation
>> difference can stand out for me.
>>
>> One of the Tewbers is an educated Brit (in fact, PhD astrophysics) who
>> says "distr BEWT" (emm fassis on the last sill labble) compared to my
>> "dis TRIB bewt". I think our "distr BEWT shun" matches rather.
>
> On the Beeb they routinely say "CON-tri-byoot" for "con-TRIB-yoot."
> Anglists might be able to tell you what happened, but it's pervasive.
> (Odds are the AmE version is older and the BrE version is innovative,
> because of the "center - periphery" phenomenon -- peripheral dialects
> are less likely to host changes. Loss of post-vocalic r is a great
> example. Never caught on here.)

FSVO "here"! You know there are non-rhotic regional accents in the
USA.

>> Another tewber is a [further research needed, but unlikely to be
>> American] who names the engine [and car] manufacturer as "pack CARD" vs
>> my "PACK urd", although the quality of the 'a' in "pack" and "PACK"
>> seems to match.
>
> Remember, they also think "Chrysler" has a /z/ in the middle.

--
Cats don't have friends. They have co-conspirators.
http://www.gocomics.com/getfuzzy/2015/05/31

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<distribute-20220513175029@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: 13 May 2022 16:52:23 GMT
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 by: Stefan Ram - Fri, 13 May 2022 16:52 UTC

lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> writes:
>On 2022-05-13 10:14, Quinn C wrote:
>>* Snidely:
>>>One of the Tewbers is an educated Brit (in fact, PhD astrophysics) who
>>>says "distr BEWT" (emm fassis on the last sill labble) compared to my
>>>"dis TRIB bewt". I think our "distr BEWT shun" matches rather.
>>I'm aware of the dis-TRI-bute stress, but was still working from the
>>assumption that my DIS-tri-bute is the most standardy standard.
>>There seems to be some confusion about that - Collins marks the second
>>syllable as stressed in writing, as the only option, but the recording
>>has stress on the first syllable (the very first speaker symbol):
....
>>Following are DIS-tri-butes, but dis-TRI-buting and dis-TRI-buted.
>>First syllable stress not in AmE, apparently.
>Nor is it in my English.
>This is the first time I have heard (or read about) anyone stressing the
>first syllable.

|distribute dɩ ˈstrɩb juːt / də-; ˈdɩs trɩ bjuːt, -trə- ‖ -jət
|The stressing ˈ···, although disliked by many, is widely used
|in BrE. BrE 1988 poll panel preference: ·ˈ·· 74%, ˈ··· 26%.

Symbols with different meanings than in IPA:
ɩ more open and back than [i], between [i] and [ə], unrounded [Y]
/ precedes alternative (non-main) pronunciations for a region
, the comma separates possible pronunciations
- (hyphen) gives possible other pronunciations of a part of a word
‖ separates standard BrE (left) from standard AmE (right)
· a syllable of stress pattern

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Fri, 13 May 2022 18:19 UTC

Le vendredi 13 mai 2022 à 16:36:57 UTC+2, Bebercito a écrit :
> Le vendredi 13 mai 2022 à 02:39:54 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> > On 13/05/2022 4:01 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> > > Le jeudi 12 mai 2022 à 17:08:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > >> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:27:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > >>> Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 13:45:26 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> > >>>> On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>> Oh by the way -- OED online is so full of stuff -- English did actually
> > >>>> borrow both charet(te) for the vehicle and chareter for the driver, from
> > >>>> Standard French, but neither survived into modern times.
> > >>>> If "the odds
> > >>>>> are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
> > >>>>> pairs of words. Can you name just one?
> > >>>> Why should there be dozens?
> > >>>
> > >>> If the odds of something happening are high, shouldn't there exist
> > >>> numerous instances of it?
> > >> How do you know there aren't?
> > >
> > > Again, name them.
> > >
> > >>>> And why should we have to search for them?
> > >>>
> > >>> Precisely to prove their postulated existence, in this case.
> > >
> > >> But ... who cares???
> > >
> > > This topic is about what I deem to be a rare, improbable occurrence.
> > You are working with a very strange concept of "probability".
> > What is the probability of the French word for dog being "chien"?
> > Why, it must be hugely improbable -- just think of all the other forms
> > it might have had! One in a million, surely. Or what about the amazing
> > fact that "god" is "dog" spelled backwards?
> >
> > The world is full of extremely "improbable" things like that, whose
> > improbability is of no interest. They are just facts.
> >
> > You start with another fact - that the words for "female cart-driver"
> > and "garter" in French are distinguished only by their initial
> > consonants -- and in fact just by the feature of voice. Nothing
> > remarkable in that -- there are lots of minimal pairs in French.
> > (jarre/carre, jase/case took me about a minute to find in a dictionary,
> > without straying very far from your example).
> [ʒ] and [k] pairs

Correction: "[g] and [k] pairs"

> are indeed easier to find, but my point was about
> French [ʃ] / [ʒ] pairs. On second thoughts, there are some indeed,
> such as "chatte"/"jatte", "chute"/"jute", "shit"/"gîte",

Also, "shoot"/"joute".
> but with no matches in English.
> >
> > But now you find that the words "carter" and "garter" in English are
> > also a minimal pair, and distinguished by the feature of voice.
> > If you had found such a corresponding pair in Mongolian or Walbiri, it
> > would have been a genuine coincidence -- but no more than amusing.
> > Nothing would follow from it.
> >
> > But here we're talking about English and French, and (as has been
> > pointed out) the similarity of form between the two pairs of words, and
> > the phonological contrast in each pair, is _not_ coincidental. The words
> > are in fact historically related, and come from roots -- respectively
> > *kar and *gar -- distinguished by the feature of voice! The initial
> > consonants have been preserved in the English words, and subject to
> > regular sound change in the French (still preserving the voice
> > contrast).
> The regular sound change in the French is from [ʒ] to [j], but what I find
> stunning is that the initial English pair of [k] / [g] gave way to the [ʒ] / [j]
> pair in French, which is phonetically unrelated to it but does retain the
> voice contrast. Whether the retention was intentional or fortuitous is
> beyond my grasp, though.
> > Nothing to do with coincidence.
> > > Providing examples showing that it's actually common would
> > > therefore seem quite relevant to prove me wrong, as you intend
> > > to.
> > How many examples there are is of no more interest than the one example
> > we have.
> > >
> > >> It's just now language contact works.
> > >
> > >>>> How long a list of French ch-/j- pairs do you have?
> > >>>
> > >>> There are hardly any others that I can think of, which makes
> > >>> the coincidence with English greater.
> > >> Nonsense. It makes the regular relationship with English jusr
> > >> about inevitable.
> > >
> > > Wrong, that's basic statistics. The more such pairs of words in
> > > French, the greater the odds of having matches in English.
> > > In this case, I can think of only one pair, and you haven't
> > > been able to find others.
> > >
> > >>>> Summary: Yes, it's a coincidence, but not one I find of any linguistic
> > >>>> interest.
> > >>>
> > >>> Yet a stunning, arguably worth mentioning one IMO.
> > >> There is nothing "stunning" about it at all.
> > >>
> > >> [me:]
> > >>>>>> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
> > >>>>>> other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
> > >>>>>> your problem.
> > >>>>> What has that to do with anything?
> > >> You're barking up a very wrong tree.
> > >
> > > ?
> > >

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Fri, 13 May 2022 19:35 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 12:45:09 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-05-13, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 9:27:31 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:

> >> One of the Tewbers is an educated Brit (in fact, PhD astrophysics) who
> >> says "distr BEWT" (emm fassis on the last sill labble) compared to my
> >> "dis TRIB bewt". I think our "distr BEWT shun" matches rather.
> > On the Beeb they routinely say "CON-tri-byoot" for "con-TRIB-yoot."
> > Anglists might be able to tell you what happened, but it's pervasive.
> > (Odds are the AmE version is older and the BrE version is innovative,
> > because of the "center - periphery" phenomenon -- peripheral dialects
> > are less likely to host changes. Loss of post-vocalic r is a great
> > example. Never caught on here.)
>
> FSVO "here"! You know there are non-rhotic regional accents in the
> USA.

They didn't "catch on." Non-rhotacism has not spread -- westward,
for instance, with the general westward movement of the regional
dialects -- from the few places where it was introduced by migration
(Boston, parts of the coastal South; NYC's has been said to reflect
the Dutch substratum but I don't know what that's based on).

> >> Another tewber is a [further research needed, but unlikely to be
> >> American] who names the engine [and car] manufacturer as "pack CARD" vs
> >> my "PACK urd", although the quality of the 'a' in "pack" and "PACK"
> >> seems to match.
> > Remember, they also think "Chrysler" has a /z/ in the middle.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Ross Clark - Fri, 13 May 2022 21:14 UTC

On 14/05/2022 12:51 a.m., Stefan Ram wrote:
> Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> writes:
>> What is the probability of the French word for dog being "chien"?
>
> Of course, the question is too vague.
>
> But, one may be able to say that "dog" could be
>
> a (male) /Canis familiaris/: Fr "chien"
> a female /Canis familiaris/: Fr "chienne"
> a male /Canidae/: Fr "mâle"
> a person: for example, "lucky dog" -> Fr "veinard(e)"
> a person regarded as unattractive: Fr "moche"
> a clamp: Fr "crampon"
> ...
>
> And one may ask, "When taken from a given collection of
> English texts, what is the probability that this instance
> (work token) of 'dog' will be translated with 'chien'?".
>

Yes, that is one way in which the notion of "probability" could be made
operational. I was thinking more along the lines of:
If you picked a language (from the world) at random, what is the
probability that its word for dog would be "chien"? (Answer: about
1/7000, I guess.)
or:
If you were inventing a new language, and needed to make up a word for
dog (without being influenced by any existing language), what is the
probability that you would come up with "chien"? (Answer: much smaller,
I guess)

But my larger point was that linguistic facts -- simple ones like this,
or more complex ones like carter/garter -- even if highly improbable by
some such measure, are not therefore interesting.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Ross Clark - Fri, 13 May 2022 21:26 UTC

On 14/05/2022 2:36 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> Le vendredi 13 mai 2022 à 02:39:54 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
>> On 13/05/2022 4:01 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
>>> Le jeudi 12 mai 2022 à 17:08:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:27:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>>>>> Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 13:45:26 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
>>>>>> On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Oh by the way -- OED online is so full of stuff -- English did actually
>>>>>> borrow both charet(te) for the vehicle and chareter for the driver, from
>>>>>> Standard French, but neither survived into modern times.
>>>>>> If "the odds
>>>>>>> are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
>>>>>>> pairs of words. Can you name just one?
>>>>>> Why should there be dozens?
>>>>>
>>>>> If the odds of something happening are high, shouldn't there exist
>>>>> numerous instances of it?
>>>> How do you know there aren't?
>>>
>>> Again, name them.
>>>
>>>>>> And why should we have to search for them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Precisely to prove their postulated existence, in this case.
>>>
>>>> But ... who cares???
>>>
>>> This topic is about what I deem to be a rare, improbable occurrence.
>> You are working with a very strange concept of "probability".
>> What is the probability of the French word for dog being "chien"?
>> Why, it must be hugely improbable -- just think of all the other forms
>> it might have had! One in a million, surely. Or what about the amazing
>> fact that "god" is "dog" spelled backwards?
>>
>> The world is full of extremely "improbable" things like that, whose
>> improbability is of no interest. They are just facts.
>>
>> You start with another fact - that the words for "female cart-driver"
>> and "garter" in French are distinguished only by their initial
>> consonants -- and in fact just by the feature of voice. Nothing
>> remarkable in that -- there are lots of minimal pairs in French.
>> (jarre/carre, jase/case took me about a minute to find in a dictionary,
>> without straying very far from your example).
>
> [ʒ] and [k] pairs are indeed easier to find,

Oops, sorry, my mind wandered. But are they really easier? You don't
have complete lists, any more than I do.

but my point was about
> French [ʃ] / [ʒ] pairs. On second thoughts, there are some indeed,
> such as "chatte"/"jatte", "chute"/"jute", "shit"/"gîte", but with no
> matches in English.
>
>>
>> But now you find that the words "carter" and "garter" in English are
>> also a minimal pair, and distinguished by the feature of voice.
>> If you had found such a corresponding pair in Mongolian or Walbiri, it
>> would have been a genuine coincidence -- but no more than amusing.
>> Nothing would follow from it.
>>
>> But here we're talking about English and French, and (as has been
>> pointed out) the similarity of form between the two pairs of words, and
>> the phonological contrast in each pair, is _not_ coincidental. The words
>> are in fact historically related, and come from roots -- respectively
>> *kar and *gar -- distinguished by the feature of voice! The initial
>> consonants have been preserved in the English words, and subject to
>> regular sound change in the French (still preserving the voice
>> contrast).
>
> The regular sound change in the French is from [ʒ] to [j],

Huh?

but what I find
> stunning is that the initial English pair of [k] / [g] gave way to the [ʒ] / [j]
> pair in French, which is phonetically unrelated to it but does retain the
> voice contrast.

I think you are confused here. The sound changes are [k] > [ʃ] (Latin
cattus > French chat) and [g] > [ʒ] (Latin gamba > French jambe). Velar
stops become palatal fricatives; voicing contrast remains.

Whether the retention was intentional or fortuitous is
> beyond my grasp, though.
>
>> Nothing to do with coincidence.
>>> Providing examples showing that it's actually common would
>>> therefore seem quite relevant to prove me wrong, as you intend
>>> to.
>> How many examples there are is of no more interest than the one example
>> we have.
>>>
>>>> It's just now language contact works.
>>>
>>>>>> How long a list of French ch-/j- pairs do you have?
>>>>>
>>>>> There are hardly any others that I can think of, which makes
>>>>> the coincidence with English greater.
>>>> Nonsense. It makes the regular relationship with English jusr
>>>> about inevitable.
>>>
>>> Wrong, that's basic statistics. The more such pairs of words in
>>> French, the greater the odds of having matches in English.
>>> In this case, I can think of only one pair, and you haven't
>>> been able to find others.
>>>
>>>>>> Summary: Yes, it's a coincidence, but not one I find of any linguistic
>>>>>> interest.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet a stunning, arguably worth mentioning one IMO.
>>>> There is nothing "stunning" about it at all.
>>>>
>>>> [me:]
>>>>>>>> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
>>>>>>>> other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
>>>>>>>> your problem.
>>>>>>> What has that to do with anything?
>>>> You're barking up a very wrong tree.
>>>
>>> ?
>>>

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Fri, 13 May 2022 21:31 UTC

Fri, 13 May 2022 20:44:33 +1000: Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:

>On 13/05/22 19:33, Silvano wrote:
>> Dingbat hat am 13.05.2022 um 07:08 geschrieben:
>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-7, Bebercito wrote:
>>>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
>>>> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
>>>> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [?] and [?].
>>>>
>>>> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
>>>> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
>>>> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
>>>>
>>>> Isn't that weird?
>>>
>>> Not if they came from those French words.
>>>
>>> This is a curious coincidence:
>>> English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY have the same two meanings:
>>> 1) Beloved
>>> 2) Expensive
>>
>> The same is true for the Italian CARO and, if my dictionaries are
>> correct, for the Spanish and Portuguese CARO as well as for the French CHER.
>
>Meanwhile, Portuguese "obrigado" has the same meaning as Japanese "arigato".

Unrelated, coincidence. The Japanese word predates first contact.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Ross Clark - Fri, 13 May 2022 21:42 UTC

On 14/05/2022 2:36 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:08:22 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-7, Bebercito wrote:
>
>>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
>>> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
>>> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
>>> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
>>> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
>>> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
>>> Isn't that weird?
>>
>> Not if they came from those French words.
>>
>> This is a curious coincidence:
>> English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY have the same two meanings:
>> 1) Beloved
>> 2) Expensive
>
> French CHER as well. It's beginning to look non-coincidental, no?

Indeed. The English seems to be two directions of development from an
original meaning something like "precious, valuable, worthy". I feel
them as quite separate now; I knew the "beloved" one from childhood, but
only encountered the "expensive" one in adolescence from British sources
(spoken and written), and found it surprising.

I wonder if all these words have undergone independent parallel
development, or whether it's a series of interlingual calques?

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: CDB - Sat, 14 May 2022 11:00 UTC

On 5/13/2022 5:42 PM, Ross Clark wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> Dingbat wrote:
>>> Bebercito wrote:

>>>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically
>>>> differ only by their first consonants being respectively the
>>>> unvoiced and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and
>>>> [ʒ]. Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter"
>>>> and "garter", have the same trait with different first
>>>> consonants, i.e [k] and [g], where the former is the unvoiced
>>>> form of the latter. Isn't that weird?

>>> Not if they came from those French words.

>>> This is a curious coincidence: English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY
>>> have the same two meanings: 1) Beloved 2) Expensive

>> French CHER as well. It's beginning to look non-coincidental, no?

> Indeed. The English seems to be two directions of development from an
> original meaning something like "precious, valuable, worthy". I feel
> them as quite separate now; I knew the "beloved" one from childhood,
> but only encountered the "expensive" one in adolescence from British
> sources (spoken and written), and found it surprising.

> I wonder if all these words have undergone independent parallel
> development, or whether it's a series of interlingual calques?

It seems to me that it must be a very old development, maybe before
there was a lot to be parallel with. A Polish-Canadian room-mate once
told me that the word for "whore" in his ancestral language was the
"cher"-cognate "kurwa".

WP says it's from Proto-Slavic "kury", and adds 'According to Vasmer,
related to Proto-Slavic *kurъ (“cock, rooster”). Alternatively, from
Proto-Indo-European *kéh₂ros (“loved”), from *keh₂-. If so, cognate with
Latin cārus (“dear, beloved”), Latvian kārs (“craving, covetous”), and
English whore.'

I note that "cock" sometimes used in Southern American English to mean
the female genitalia (no written source, but I heard the usage from a
Kentuckian I worked with at one time).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/kury

No idea what all that says about the price in town.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<r3xoxytzntl4.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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 by: Quinn C - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:54 UTC

* Ross Clark:

> On 14/05/2022 2:36 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:08:22 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-7, Bebercito wrote:
>>
>>>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
>>>> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
>>>> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
>>>> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
>>>> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
>>>> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
>>>> Isn't that weird?
>>>
>>> Not if they came from those French words.
>>>
>>> This is a curious coincidence:
>>> English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY have the same two meanings:
>>> 1) Beloved
>>> 2) Expensive
>>
>> French CHER as well. It's beginning to look non-coincidental, no?
>
> Indeed. The English seems to be two directions of development from an
> original meaning something like "precious, valuable, worthy". I feel
> them as quite separate now; I knew the "beloved" one from childhood, but
> only encountered the "expensive" one in adolescence from British sources
> (spoken and written), and found it surprising.

The German cognate "teuer" had the opposite development: it now normally
means "expensive", and the "beloved" meaning is old-fashioned and
stilted.

--
There is a whole cottage industry devoted to people who are
upset by the idea of others being outraged.
-- Washington Post 2019-09-18

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 14:04 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:43:06 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 14/05/2022 2:36 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:08:22 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> >> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-7, Bebercito wrote:
> >>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> >>> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> >>> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [ʃ] and [ʒ].
> >>> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> >>> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> >>> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
> >>> Isn't that weird?
> >> Not if they came from those French words.
> >> This is a curious coincidence:
> >> English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY have the same two meanings:
> >> 1) Beloved
> >> 2) Expensive
> > French CHER as well. It's beginning to look non-coincidental, no?
>
> Indeed. The English seems to be two directions of development from an
> original meaning something like "precious, valuable, worthy". I feel
> them as quite separate now; I knew the "beloved" one from childhood, but
> only encountered the "expensive" one in adolescence from British sources
> (spoken and written), and found it surprising.

Interesting. It was my grandmother's (b. 1891, Brooklyn) regular
word for 'expensive'.

> I wonder if all these words have undergone independent parallel
> development, or whether it's a series of interlingual calques?

Or just the ordinary development from 'precious, valuable, worthy' that
you suggested? Lakoff might even call it "metaphor."

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Sat, 14 May 2022 16:14 UTC

Le vendredi 13 mai 2022 à 23:26:34 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> On 14/05/2022 2:36 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> > Le vendredi 13 mai 2022 à 02:39:54 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> >> On 13/05/2022 4:01 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> >>> Le jeudi 12 mai 2022 à 17:08:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:27:20 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >>>>> Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 13:45:26 UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> >>>>>> On 11/05/2022 2:03 a.m., Bebercito wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Oh by the way -- OED online is so full of stuff -- English did actually
> >>>>>> borrow both charet(te) for the vehicle and chareter for the driver, from
> >>>>>> Standard French, but neither survived into modern times.
> >>>>>> If "the odds
> >>>>>>> are enormous", there should be dozens of other such French-English
> >>>>>>> pairs of words. Can you name just one?
> >>>>>> Why should there be dozens?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If the odds of something happening are high, shouldn't there exist
> >>>>> numerous instances of it?
> >>>> How do you know there aren't?
> >>>
> >>> Again, name them.
> >>>
> >>>>>> And why should we have to search for them?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Precisely to prove their postulated existence, in this case.
> >>>
> >>>> But ... who cares???
> >>>
> >>> This topic is about what I deem to be a rare, improbable occurrence.
> >> You are working with a very strange concept of "probability".
> >> What is the probability of the French word for dog being "chien"?
> >> Why, it must be hugely improbable -- just think of all the other forms
> >> it might have had! One in a million, surely. Or what about the amazing
> >> fact that "god" is "dog" spelled backwards?
> >>
> >> The world is full of extremely "improbable" things like that, whose
> >> improbability is of no interest. They are just facts.
> >>
> >> You start with another fact - that the words for "female cart-driver"
> >> and "garter" in French are distinguished only by their initial
> >> consonants -- and in fact just by the feature of voice. Nothing
> >> remarkable in that -- there are lots of minimal pairs in French.
> >> (jarre/carre, jase/case took me about a minute to find in a dictionary,
> >> without straying very far from your example).
> >
> > [ʒ] and [k] pairs are indeed easier to find,
> Oops, sorry, my mind wandered. But are they really easier? You don't
> have complete lists, any more than I do.

I don't, but a simple, easily verifiable fact is that far fewer French
words begin with [ʃ] than with [k] and with [ʒ] than with [g], making
the number of [g] / [k] pairs potentially much greater than the number
of [ʃ] / [ʒ] pairs.

> but my point was about
> > French [ʃ] / [ʒ] pairs. On second thoughts, there are some indeed,
> > such as "chatte"/"jatte", "chute"/"jute", "shit"/"gîte", but with no
> > matches in English.
> >
> >>
> >> But now you find that the words "carter" and "garter" in English are
> >> also a minimal pair, and distinguished by the feature of voice.
> >> If you had found such a corresponding pair in Mongolian or Walbiri, it
> >> would have been a genuine coincidence -- but no more than amusing.
> >> Nothing would follow from it.
> >>
> >> But here we're talking about English and French, and (as has been
> >> pointed out) the similarity of form between the two pairs of words, and
> >> the phonological contrast in each pair, is _not_ coincidental. The words
> >> are in fact historically related, and come from roots -- respectively
> >> *kar and *gar -- distinguished by the feature of voice! The initial
> >> consonants have been preserved in the English words, and subject to
> >> regular sound change in the French (still preserving the voice
> >> contrast).
> >
> > The regular sound change in the French is from [ʒ] to [j],
> Huh?
> but what I find
> > stunning is that the initial English pair of [k] / [g] gave way to the [ʒ] / [j]
> > pair in French, which is phonetically unrelated to it but does retain the
> > voice contrast.
> I think you are confused here. The sound changes are [k] > [ʃ] (Latin
> cattus > French chat) and [g] > [ʒ] (Latin gamba > French jambe). Velar
> stops become palatal fricatives; voicing contrast remains.

I was indeed, thanks.

> Whether the retention was intentional or fortuitous is
> > beyond my grasp, though.
> >
> >> Nothing to do with coincidence.
> >>> Providing examples showing that it's actually common would
> >>> therefore seem quite relevant to prove me wrong, as you intend
> >>> to.
> >> How many examples there are is of no more interest than the one example
> >> we have.
> >>>
> >>>> It's just now language contact works.
> >>>
> >>>>>> How long a list of French ch-/j- pairs do you have?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are hardly any others that I can think of, which makes
> >>>>> the coincidence with English greater.
> >>>> Nonsense. It makes the regular relationship with English jusr
> >>>> about inevitable.
> >>>
> >>> Wrong, that's basic statistics. The more such pairs of words in
> >>> French, the greater the odds of having matches in English.
> >>> In this case, I can think of only one pair, and you haven't
> >>> been able to find others.
> >>>
> >>>>>> Summary: Yes, it's a coincidence, but not one I find of any linguistic
> >>>>>> interest.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yet a stunning, arguably worth mentioning one IMO.
> >>>> There is nothing "stunning" about it at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> [me:]
> >>>>>>>> If you don't like it that French has words that sound similar to each
> >>>>>>>> other, that's not English's problem. It's not French's problem. It's
> >>>>>>>> your problem.
> >>>>>>> What has that to do with anything?
> >>>> You're barking up a very wrong tree.
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 19:53:45 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sat, 14 May 2022 17:53 UTC

Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:43:06 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On 14/05/2022 2:36 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:08:22 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > >> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-7, Bebercito wrote:
>
> > >>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> > >>> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> > >>> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [?] and [?].
> > >>> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> > >>> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> > >>> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
> > >>> Isn't that weird?
> > >> Not if they came from those French words.
> > >> This is a curious coincidence:
> > >> English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY have the same two meanings:
> > >> 1) Beloved
> > >> 2) Expensive
> > > French CHER as well. It's beginning to look non-coincidental, no?
> >
> > Indeed. The English seems to be two directions of development from an
> > original meaning something like "precious, valuable, worthy". I feel
> > them as quite separate now; I knew the "beloved" one from childhood, but
> > only encountered the "expensive" one in adolescence from British sources
> > (spoken and written), and found it surprising.
>
> Interesting. It was my grandmother's (b. 1891, Brooklyn) regular
> word for 'expensive'.

If Brooklyn from Dutch 'duur', perhaps,

Jan

> > I wonder if all these words have undergone independent parallel
> > development, or whether it's a series of interlingual calques?
>
> Or just the ordinary development from 'precious, valuable, worthy' that
> you suggested? Lakoff might even call it "metaphor."

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 19:10 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 1:53:49 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:43:06 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > > On 14/05/2022 2:36 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:08:22 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > >> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-7, Bebercito wrote:

> > > >>> Two French words, "charretière" and "jarretière" phonetically differ
> > > >>> only by their first consonants being respectively the unvoiced
> > > >>> and voiced forms of the same consonant, i.e [?] and [?].
> > > >>> Now, the English counterparts of those two words, "carter" and
> > > >>> "garter", have the same trait with different first consonants, i.e [k]
> > > >>> and [g], where the former is the unvoiced form of the latter.
> > > >>> Isn't that weird?
> > > >> Not if they came from those French words.
> > > >> This is a curious coincidence:
> > > >> English DEAR and Russian DOROGOY have the same two meanings:
> > > >> 1) Beloved
> > > >> 2) Expensive
> > > > French CHER as well. It's beginning to look non-coincidental, no?
> > > Indeed. The English seems to be two directions of development from an
> > > original meaning something like "precious, valuable, worthy". I feel
> > > them as quite separate now; I knew the "beloved" one from childhood, but
> > > only encountered the "expensive" one in adolescence from British sources
> > > (spoken and written), and found it surprising.
> > Interesting. It was my grandmother's (b. 1891, Brooklyn) regular
> > word for 'expensive'.
>
> If Brooklyn from Dutch 'duur', perhaps,

Uh, no.

Dutch was very long dead by the time her ancestors (probably her parents,
but we don't know) iommigrated from Eastern Europe (perhaps in the 1850s,
as we recently learned of her husband's, our grandfather). She seems to have
grown up, an orphan, in Rockland County, NY. (Her two older sisters were
sent to an orphanage in Fall River, Massachusetts. They had an older brother.
We do not know how or when he ended up in Memphis, Tennessee.)

Useful would be information as to whether Du. "duur" also has the other
meaning of the English, Russian, French, and (marginally) German words
that have been mentioned.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 21:45:44 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Sat, 14 May 2022 19:45 UTC

Sat, 14 May 2022 12:10:36 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>Useful would be information as to whether Du. "duur" also has the other
>meaning of the English, Russian, French, and (marginally) German words
>that have been mentioned.

Dutch duur mean expensive, costly, not dear.
But we also have dierbaar, which means dear, close to someone's heart.
They are indeed related: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dierbaar
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: lar...@invalid.ca (lar3ryca)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 13:52:31 -0600
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 by: lar3ryca - Sat, 14 May 2022 19:52 UTC

On 2022-05-14 13:45, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sat, 14 May 2022 12:10:36 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
>> Useful would be information as to whether Du. "duur" also has the other
>> meaning of the English, Russian, French, and (marginally) German words
>> that have been mentioned.
>
> Dutch duur mean expensive, costly, not dear.

Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of 'costly' and
'expensive', doesn't that mean that 'duur' is also a synonym of 'dear'?

> But we also have dierbaar, which means dear, close to someone's heart.
> They are indeed related: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dierbaar

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Sat, 14 May 2022 20:34 UTC

Le samedi 14 mai 2022 à 21:52:37 UTC+2, lar3ryca a écrit :
> On 2022-05-14 13:45, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Sat, 14 May 2022 12:10:36 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> > <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >
> >> Useful would be information as to whether Du. "duur" also has the other
> >> meaning of the English, Russian, French, and (marginally) German words
> >> that have been mentioned.
> >
> > Dutch duur mean expensive, costly, not dear.
> Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of 'costly' and
> 'expensive', doesn't that mean that 'duur' is also a synonym of 'dear'?

No, the implication is "expensive" as opposed to "dear" meaning
"cherished".

> > But we also have dierbaar, which means dear, close to someone's heart.
> > They are indeed related: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dierbaar

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 13:54:10 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Sat, 14 May 2022 20:54 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 13:52:31 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2022-05-14 13:45, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Sat, 14 May 2022 12:10:36 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>
>>> Useful would be information as to whether Du. "duur" also has the other
>>> meaning of the English, Russian, French, and (marginally) German words
>>> that have been mentioned.
>>
>> Dutch duur mean expensive, costly, not dear.
>
>Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of 'costly' and
>'expensive', doesn't that mean that 'duur' is also a synonym of 'dear'?
>
>
>
>> But we also have dierbaar, which means dear, close to someone's heart.

Sounds like a place that sells expensive liquor.

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