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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: Name changes

SubjectAuthor
* Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
+* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|`* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
| `* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|  +* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |+- Re: Which sentence is better?wugi
|  |`* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|  | `* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |   `- Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|   `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|    `* Re: Which sentence is better?Madhu
|     `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|      `* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|       `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|        `* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|         `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|          `- Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
+- Re: Which sentence is better?Adam Funk
+* Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
|+* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||+* Re: Which sentence is better?bil...@shaw.ca
|||+* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
||||+- Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||||`- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
|||`* Re: Which sentence is better?CDB
||| `* Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
|||  `* Re: Which sentence is better?CDB
|||   `- Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
||+- Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||`* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
|| `* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||  +* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
||  |`- Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||  +- Re: Which sentence is better?charles
||  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||   +* Re: Which sentence is better?charles
||   |`* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter Moylan
||   | `* Re: Which sentence is better?Athel Cornish-Bowden
||   |  +- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
||   |  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Sam Plusnet
||   |   `- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
||   +* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||   |+* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
||   ||`- Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
||   |`- Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||   `* Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Quinn C
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Tony Cooper
||    |`* Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | `- Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Lewis
||    |+- Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)charles
||    |`* Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | +* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | |`* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | +* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | |+* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | | ||`- Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |+* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||+- Re: Name changesBebercito
||    | | ||`* Re: Name changesbil...@shaw.ca
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | | || ||`- Re: Name changesAthel Cornish-Bowden
||    | | || |+- Re: Name changesAthel Cornish-Bowden
||    | | || |`- Re: Name changesAnders D. Nygaard
||    | | || `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||  `* Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | ||   `- Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | |+* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||+* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | |||`* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||| `* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | |||  `- Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||+* Re: Name changesHibou
||    | | |||+* Re: Name changesRichard Heathfield
||    | | ||||+* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||+* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | ||||||`* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||| `* Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||||||  `* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | ||||||   `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||||    +- Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | | ||||||    `- Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||`- Re: Name changesbruce bowser
||    | | ||||`* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | | |||| `* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||||  `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||   `* Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||||    `* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | ||||     +* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||     |`* Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | ||||     | `* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||||     |  `* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||||     |   `- Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||     `- Re: Name changesbruce bowser
||    | | |||`- Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | ||`* Re: Name changesJanet
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesJanet
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | || |`* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | || `* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | |`* Re: Name changesJerry Friedman
||    | | +* Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | +- Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | `- Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | +* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | `* Re: Name changesCDB
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Peter T. Daniels
||    `* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Ken Blake
|`* Re: Which sentence is better?Adam Funk
+* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
`- Re: Which sentence is better?Ruud Harmsen

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Re: Name changes

<78786dc6-1f15-4941-b505-6831c02f6dfen@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 14:21 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:47:05 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 13/05/22 23:06, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:

> >>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
> >>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines
> >>> whether it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
> >> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to
> >> imply "respectively"?
> > BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate such
> > services.
> > One type might be called: "legitimate massage parlor", "legit massage
> > parlor", or "legitimate massage therapy center".
> > The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
> > (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
>
> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had some back
> pain and really would have liked a massage. There were a number of
> massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't work out which was which,
> so I ended up having to live with the pain.

Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.

Re: Name changes

<ulfv7hd6kv28ts8sdo2iq9hef433u440h1@4ax.com>

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 11:03:35 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Sat, 14 May 2022 15:03 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:39:47 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> What were you reading when you came to the conclusion that I said
>> anything about legally changing one's name?
>>
>> I specifically noted that I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is
>> used to mean "what's on record". It's still in this post.
>
>No, you are not Humpty Dumpty. You don't get to do that.

Actually, any way that you define "legal", a woman who changes her
maiden name on her driver's license or credit cards to her married
last name is doing so legally.

There is no law prohibiting her from doing that. She is not
committing an illegal act. She's doing so legally.

In fact, the act of changing her maiden name to her married name is a
legal change of names.

https://www.findlaw.com/family/marriage/changing-your-name-after-marriage.html

Your objection, like Humpty Dumpty, is so shattered that all the
king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together
again.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Name changes

<0a6fda76-8818-4c51-a043-6ad113e171b3n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: bruce2bo...@gmail.com (bruce bowser)
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 by: bruce bowser - Sat, 14 May 2022 15:30 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 6:50:49 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 15:23:12 -0700 (PDT), bruce bowser
> <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:39:47 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Fri, 13 May 2022 12:47:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 4:44:00 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> >> >On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 2:11:31 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> >> >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 08:54:27 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> >> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:12:57 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Wed, 11 May 2022 19:32:24 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
> >> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
> >> >> >> >> >> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
> >> >> >> >> >> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
> >> >> >> >> >> name professionally.
> >> >> >> >> >You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
> >> >> >> >> >not?
> >> >> >> >> No. When a woman marries in the US there's no legal reason for her to
> >> >> >> >> adopt her husband's last name or to retain her own last name.
> >> >> >> >> I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is used to mean "what's on
> >> >> >> >> record". A woman can legally change her name
> >> >> >> >In Florida?
> >> >> >> Yes. Dunno about New Jersey. Is it different there?
> >> >> >Probably. It's different in New York.
> >> >> >But as usual, you assert that what holds in Florida is how it is done
> >> >> >"in the US."
> >> >>
> >> >> There is nothing in what I wrote that pertains only to Florida,
> >> >> specific to Florida, or is not possible in any state in the US.
> >> >
> >> >You may be able to con some local authorities into changing the name
> >> >on your driver's license (seems unlikely), but that is not "legally changing
> >> >your name." You also mentioned changing names on accounts with
> >> >banks or stores. Those have nothing to do with "legality."
> >> >
> >>
> >> What were you reading when you came to the conclusion that I said
> >> anything about legally changing one's name?
> >>
> >> I specifically noted that I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is
> >> used to mean "what's on record".
> >
> >Legal is defined as:
> >
> Jesus, Bruce, you think I need dictionary cites to know the word
> "legal" means?
>
> However, when the word is put in quotes, and then an explanation is
> provided that this use of "legal" is being used to mean "what's on
> record", then any idiot should be able to figure out I'm not using the
> statutory meaning.
>
> Well, any idiot who isn't living in a well in New Jersey.

Thank you for adding sufficient context (though after the fact).

Re: Name changes

<r7rv7h18tjp3kpe9cl2bsi3s76kf8jbgfb@4ax.com>

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 11:02:08 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Sat, 14 May 2022 18:02 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 12:44:12 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 14/05/22 06:06, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 3:38:51 AM UTC-7, Janet wrote:
>
>>> I've heard and read chanteuse, but not chanteur.
>>>
>> That niche in the linguistic food chain may be occupied by "cantor".
>> In some Christian and Jewish traditions, a cantor leads the
>> chanting.
>
>There's also a French word "cantatrice". I know that word only because
>of a play by Ionesco. (La cantatrice chauve, also known as
>L'institutrice blonde. And, earlier, L'anglais sans peine.)

Also, the Italian word is "cantante" and the singer in flamenco music
is known as a "cantaor."

There are probably other similar words in other languages, but I
"cant" remember them.

Re: Name changes

<4c70nvpnein9.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
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 by: Quinn C - Sat, 14 May 2022 19:07 UTC

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:47:05 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 13/05/22 23:06, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>
>>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
>>>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines
>>>>> whether it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
>>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to
>>>> imply "respectively"?
>>> BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate such
>>> services.
>>> One type might be called: "legitimate massage parlor", "legit massage
>>> parlor", or "legitimate massage therapy center".
>>> The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
>>> (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
>>
>> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had some back
>> pain and really would have liked a massage. There were a number of
>> massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't work out which was which,
>> so I ended up having to live with the pain.
>
> Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.

I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is quite
some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists on the one
hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find "legit"
massagists working in spas and gyms, but also in "massage therapy"
outlets. "Therapy" might be a codeword to identify them. I don't know if
it's protected, but there is a Fédération québécoise des
massothérapeutes agréés (that's a lot of é) which tries to set some
standards in a profession where the government doesn't.

--
It was frequently the fastest way to find what he was looking
for, provided that he was looking for trouble.
-- L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen

Re: Name changes

<2sxwxi3nq19i$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Sat, 14 May 2022 19:07 UTC

* Lewis:

> In message <1dot7uxgezngo.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> * Lewis:
>
>>> In message <2qjyh5ie20kw$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>>> For more and more younger people, there isn't even a "default way" and
>>>> "the exception" any more, but a range of possibilities what two people
>>>> could do with their names if they marry.
>
>>> This is just not true. It is still the case that the vast majority of
>>> women change their last names when they marry. Sometimes several times
>>> if they go through several husbands. The ones who do not are more common
>>> than they were, but are still a small percentage
>
>> I tried to find some numbers, first for Germany, to give substance to
>
> To be clear, though you know this, I am not talking about Germany.

Well, if the US is far behind Germany or Canada in a cultural
development, it can of course happen that my judgment of US affairs is
going to be off. Generally, I view those countries as part of a more or
less shared culture, where things like, say, the introduction of legal
abortion or gay marriage happened just a few years apart, rather than
decades, so there's hardly good reason to look at each other and think
"well, that'll never happen here!" on another aspect of women's lib.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Re: Name changes

<447nbrmxtln2.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Sat, 14 May 2022 19:07 UTC

* Adam Funk:

> On 2022-05-13, Quinn C wrote:
>
>> * Adam Funk:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-13, CDB wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:

>>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
>>>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines whether
>>>>> it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
>>>>
>>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to imply
>>>> "respectively"?
>>>
>>> I'd assume the more French one is the naughty kind.
>>
>> Yes, but it used to be the only one, and some may still use it
>> indiscriminately. So it's not a case of importing a French word
>> specifically for naughtiness.
>
> Well, that's disappointing. ;-)

Mother: It's vital that we protect your purity during this vulnerable
time. I mean, you're a divorcee, and, well, that sounds French.
Summer: I know it does. <audible exhale>

Girls5eva S02E04

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Re: Name changes

<7501d16b-a321-41af-b771-4c20827b9bcan@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 19:27 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 11:03:41 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 14 May 2022 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:39:47 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >> What were you reading when you came to the conclusion that I said
> >> anything about legally changing one's name?
> >> I specifically noted that I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is
> >> used to mean "what's on record". It's still in this post.
> >No, you are not Humpty Dumpty. You don't get to do that.
>
> Actually, any way that you define "legal", a woman who changes her
> maiden name on her driver's license or credit cards to her married
> last name is doing so legally.

Of course she is "doing so legally." Doing so is not "changing her
name legally." It is notifying the account-holder that she has a new
"legal name," but she did not acquire her new "legal name" by
changing it on a credit card or a bank account.

> There is no law prohibiting her from doing that. She is not
> committing an illegal act. She's doing so legally.
>
> In fact, the act of changing her maiden name to her married name is a
> legal change of names.

It is not accomplished by notifying the DMV or an account holder.

It is accomplished through "the power vested in me by the State of XX"
-- by a _performative_. (If you had been paying attention here, you would
have learned about performatives, such as "I now pronounce you husband
and wife [or variants]" or "I christen this ship Boaty McBoatface.") A way
to legally change your name is to go before the appropriate judicial
authority and perform all the needed steps and receive such a declaration.
Said authority might be a county clerk in some states, or it might be a judge
at some level in some states, etc.

> https://www.findlaw.com/family/marriage/changing-your-name-after-marriage.html
>
> Your objection, like Humpty Dumpty, is so shattered that all the
> king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together
> again.

You look so foolish when you try to ape someone's figures of speech.
> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And utter misinformation.

("And misinformation" referred to 'some misinformation'. "Mostly
misinformation" referred to considerably worse than that.)

Re: Name changes

<dbfa210a-b412-42e7-b195-c17f85e9efc3n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 19:31 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 3:07:49 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:47:05 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> On 13/05/22 23:06, Stefan Ram wrote:
> >>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> >>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
> >>>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines
> >>>>> whether it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
> >>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to
> >>>> imply "respectively"?
> >>> BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate such
> >>> services.
> >>> One type might be called: "legitimate massage parlor", "legit massage
> >>> parlor", or "legitimate massage therapy center".
> >>> The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
> >>> (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
> >> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had some back
> >> pain and really would have liked a massage. There were a number of
> >> massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't work out which was which,
> >> so I ended up having to live with the pain.
> > Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.
>
> I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is quite
> some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists on the one
> hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find "legit"
> massagists working in spas and gyms,

I didn't mention spas because they can all too easily cross over to,
at least, the "happy ending." (See the last or penultimate episode
of *Schitt's Creek*.)

> but also in "massage therapy"
> outlets. "Therapy" might be a codeword to identify them. I don't know if
> it's protected, but there is a Fédération québécoise des
> massothérapeutes agréés (that's a lot of é) which tries to set some
> standards in a profession where the government doesn't.

There's something the Quebec government doesn't try to control??

Re: Name changes

<b5208h5cnla7i5b2elnchj6okf2mu9vb0c@4ax.com>

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 17:04:18 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Sat, 14 May 2022 21:04 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 12:27:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 11:03:41 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 May 2022 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:39:47 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> >> What were you reading when you came to the conclusion that I said
>> >> anything about legally changing one's name?
>> >> I specifically noted that I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is
>> >> used to mean "what's on record". It's still in this post.
>> >No, you are not Humpty Dumpty. You don't get to do that.
>>
>> Actually, any way that you define "legal", a woman who changes her
>> maiden name on her driver's license or credit cards to her married
>> last name is doing so legally.
>
>Of course she is "doing so legally." Doing so is not "changing her
>name legally." It is notifying the account-holder that she has a new
>"legal name," but she did not acquire her new "legal name" by
>changing it on a credit card or a bank account.
>

Absolutely fascinating defense! She is changing her name legally, but
not legally changing her name.

>> There is no law prohibiting her from doing that. She is not
>> committing an illegal act. She's doing so legally.
>>
>> In fact, the act of changing her maiden name to her married name is a
>> legal change of names.
>
>It is not accomplished by notifying the DMV or an account holder.

And yet it is. That, and the notification to the IRS and SSA, is the
performative utterance that accomplished the change.
>
>It is accomplished through "the power vested in me by the State of XX"
>-- by a _performative_.

There is no applicable (to the issue of name change) performative
utterance in the marriage ceremony.

The marriage itself does not change her name. When the officiant says
"By the power...", the name is not changed. Otherwise, the millions
of American women who retained their maiden name after marriage would
have been using a name that is no longer theirs.

The officiant doesn't even know what form the new name, if one is to
be taken, will be. In the case of a same-sex marriage, it's not clear
which party would change if your premise was the rule.

>A way to legally change your name is to go before the appropriate judicial
>authority and perform all the needed steps and receive such a declaration.
>Said authority might be a county clerk in some states, or it might be a judge
>at some level in some states, etc.

Yes, that's *a* way to do it legally. If you a claiming that this is
the *only* way, then you are also claiming that all of the women in
the US who have taken their husband's last names on marriage, without
going through those steps, are fraudulently using their new names and
possibly committing an illegal act in signing that name to a document.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Name changes

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 21:26:17 +0000
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 21:26 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:04:25 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 14 May 2022 12:27:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 11:03:41 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Sat, 14 May 2022 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> >On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:39:47 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >> >> What were you reading when you came to the conclusion that I said
> >> >> anything about legally changing one's name?
> >> >> I specifically noted that I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is
> >> >> used to mean "what's on record". It's still in this post.
> >> >No, you are not Humpty Dumpty. You don't get to do that.
> >> Actually, any way that you define "legal", a woman who changes her
> >> maiden name on her driver's license or credit cards to her married
> >> last name is doing so legally.
> >Of course she is "doing so legally." Doing so is not "changing her
> >name legally." It is notifying the account-holder that she has a new
> >"legal name," but she did not acquire her new "legal name" by
> >changing it on a credit card or a bank account.
>
> Absolutely fascinating defense! She is changing her name legally, but
> not legally changing her name.

It's truly pathetic that you think you are "entertaiing" yourself by
pretending you cannot understand English.

Notifying an account-holder of a name change is, obviously, not
an illegal act.

Officially changing a name is an act that is performed in accordance
with the laws for changing one's legal name. Usually, the name-changer
must demonstrate that the change is not done for the purpose of fraud,
and if the desired name is deemed to be obscene or otherwise problematic,
the relevant authority may disallow it.

> >> There is no law prohibiting her from doing that. She is not
> >> committing an illegal act. She's doing so legally.
> >> In fact, the act of changing her maiden name to her married name is a
> >> legal change of names.
> >It is not accomplished by notifying the DMV or an account holder.
>
> And yet it is. That, and the notification to the IRS and SSA, is the
> performative utterance that accomplished the change.

It most certainly is not. None of those agencies has the authority
to MAKE (as opposed to REGISTER) an official name change.

You are truly pathetic, terminally stupid, and not "entertaining" anyone
in the least.

> >It is accomplished through "the power vested in me by the State of XX"
> >-- by a _performative_.
>
> There is no applicable (to the issue of name change) performative
> utterance in the marriage ceremony.

And when you're truly desperate, you wax incoherent.

Nothing above refers to a marriage ceremony, except using an
example of what a performative utterance can look like.

> The marriage itself does not change her name. When the officiant says
> "By the power...", the name is not changed. Otherwise, the millions
> of American women who retained their maiden name after marriage would
> have been using a name that is no longer theirs.
>
> The officiant doesn't even know what form the new name, if one is to
> be taken, will be. In the case of a same-sex marriage, it's not clear
> which party would change if your premise was the rule.

For Christ's Sake. (In your case; you presumably had a religious wedding
in a Catholic church, given all you've said about your wife.) Have you
forgotten that you signed a LEGAL DOCUMENT in front of WITNESSES
who attested that you had indeed done so? Maybe in your state you did
that in the courthouse. When I was a witness at a wedding in NYS, it was
done in the minister's office in the (Unitarian) church, and the minister's
signature was included as the officiant. That was NOT the official
change of name, if there was one. just heard from them, in connection
with our 50th Reunion (hence also their 50th aniversary) and they're
still both hyphenated.

> >A way to legally change your name is to go before the appropriate judicial
> >authority and perform all the needed steps and receive such a declaration.
> >Said authority might be a county clerk in some states, or it might be a judge
> >at some level in some states, etc.
>
> Yes, that's *a* way to do it legally. If you a claiming that this is
> the *only* way, then you are also claiming that all of the women in
> the US who have taken their husband's last names on marriage, without
> going through those steps, are fraudulently using their new names and
> possibly committing an illegal act in signing that name to a document.

Bullshit.
> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And displaying the most profound absence of cognitive ability.

Re: Name changes

<33b5afab-a130-496a-81a8-7d1e27ff1af7n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: bruce2bo...@gmail.com (bruce bowser)
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 by: bruce bowser - Sat, 14 May 2022 22:06 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 3:31:29 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 3:07:49 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> > * Peter T. Daniels:
> > > On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:47:05 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > >> On 13/05/22 23:06, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > >>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >>>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>
> > >>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
> > >>>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines
> > >>>>> whether it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
> > >>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to
> > >>>> imply "respectively"?
> > >>> BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate such
> > >>> services.
> > >>> One type might be called: "legitimate massage parlor", "legit massage
> > >>> parlor", or "legitimate massage therapy center".
> > >>> The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
> > >>> (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
> > >> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had some back
> > >> pain and really would have liked a massage. There were a number of
> > >> massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't work out which was which,
> > >> so I ended up having to live with the pain.
> > > Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.
> >
> > I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is quite
> > some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists on the one
> > hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find "legit"
> > massagists working in spas and gyms,
> I didn't mention spas because they can all too easily cross over to,
> at least, the "happy ending." (See the last or penultimate episode
> of *Schitt's Creek*.)
> > but also in "massage therapy"
> > outlets. "Therapy" might be a codeword to identify them. I don't know if
> > it's protected, but there is a Fédération québécoise des
> > massothérapeutes agréés (that's a lot of é) which tries to set some
> > standards in a profession where the government doesn't.
> There's something the Quebec government doesn't try to control??

I sometimes wonder where Quebec's control ends and Montréal's control begins.

Re: Name changes

<n2808hlqs5t5ejpqk91pqarvm072nkajn1@4ax.com>

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 19:08:33 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Sat, 14 May 2022 23:08 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 14:26:16 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:04:25 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 May 2022 12:27:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 11:03:41 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 14 May 2022 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >> >On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:39:47 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> >> >> What were you reading when you came to the conclusion that I said
>> >> >> anything about legally changing one's name?
>> >> >> I specifically noted that I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is
>> >> >> used to mean "what's on record". It's still in this post.
>> >> >No, you are not Humpty Dumpty. You don't get to do that.
>> >> Actually, any way that you define "legal", a woman who changes her
>> >> maiden name on her driver's license or credit cards to her married
>> >> last name is doing so legally.
>> >Of course she is "doing so legally." Doing so is not "changing her
>> >name legally." It is notifying the account-holder that she has a new
>> >"legal name," but she did not acquire her new "legal name" by
>> >changing it on a credit card or a bank account.
>>
>> Absolutely fascinating defense! She is changing her name legally, but
>> not legally changing her name.
>
>It's truly pathetic that you think you are "entertaiing" yourself by
>pretending you cannot understand English.
>
>Notifying an account-holder of a name change is, obviously, not
>an illegal act.
>
>Officially changing a name is an act that is performed in accordance
>with the laws for changing one's legal name. Usually, the name-changer
>must demonstrate that the change is not done for the purpose of fraud,
>and if the desired name is deemed to be obscene or otherwise problematic,
>the relevant authority may disallow it.
>
>> >> There is no law prohibiting her from doing that. She is not
>> >> committing an illegal act. She's doing so legally.
>> >> In fact, the act of changing her maiden name to her married name is a
>> >> legal change of names.
>> >It is not accomplished by notifying the DMV or an account holder.
>>
>> And yet it is. That, and the notification to the IRS and SSA, is the
>> performative utterance that accomplished the change.
>
>It most certainly is not. None of those agencies has the authority
>to MAKE (as opposed to REGISTER) an official name change.

The person submitting the notification makes the change which is then
registered by the agency notified.
>
>You are truly pathetic, terminally stupid, and not "entertaining" anyone
>in the least.
>
>> >It is accomplished through "the power vested in me by the State of XX"
>> >-- by a _performative_.
>>
>> There is no applicable (to the issue of name change) performative
>> utterance in the marriage ceremony.
>
>And when you're truly desperate, you wax incoherent.
>
>Nothing above refers to a marriage ceremony, except using an
>example of what a performative utterance can look like.
>
>> The marriage itself does not change her name. When the officiant says
>> "By the power...", the name is not changed. Otherwise, the millions
>> of American women who retained their maiden name after marriage would
>> have been using a name that is no longer theirs.
>>
>> The officiant doesn't even know what form the new name, if one is to
>> be taken, will be. In the case of a same-sex marriage, it's not clear
>> which party would change if your premise was the rule.
>
>For Christ's Sake. (In your case; you presumably had a religious wedding
>in a Catholic church, given all you've said about your wife.) Have you
>forgotten that you signed a LEGAL DOCUMENT in front of WITNESSES
>who attested that you had indeed done so?

No. We did not sign anything after the wedding in a Catholic church
in Rockford, IL. We signed the application for the marriage license
prior to being married. The "LEGAL DOCUMENT" provided was the
certificate of marriage signed by the Priest.

I'd have to dig it out, but I believe it has my name and my wife's
maiden name as being joined in marriage. No WITNESSES.

I have a very clear memory of this, despite it being 58 years ago,
because we joke about it. The priest was back in his office before we
were halfway down the aisle out of the church and we never saw him
again that day.

My wife was concerned that we didn't leave the church with a
certificate of marriage. She was afraid we'd be refused by some hotel
on our honeymoon trip because we couldn't prove we were married.
We didn't get the certificate until some weeks later when she was in
Rockford and went by the church.

> When I was a witness at a wedding in NYS, it was
>done in the minister's office in the (Unitarian) church, and the minister's
>signature was included as the officiant. That was NOT the official
>change of name, if there was one. just heard from them, in connection
>with our 50th Reunion (hence also their 50th aniversary) and they're
>still both hyphenated.

Isn't this what you so often have a tantrum over? Citing some
experience you've had in some state with the implication that it's
this way everywhere?

No witness signature is required in Illinois.
https://www.usmarriagelaws.com/marriage-license/marriage-witnesses-requirements/

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Name changes

<m31qwvwdmw.fsf@leonis4.robolove.meer.net>

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From: enom...@meer.net (Madhu)
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Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 11:17:35 +0530
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 by: Madhu - Sun, 15 May 2022 05:47 UTC

* Janet <MPG.3ce85dfaf00d32d89896c4 @news.individual.net> :
Wrote on Fri, 13 May 2022 13:22:56 +0100:
> In the USA?
>
> I opened my first UK bank current account long before I married, (with
> cheque book in my maiden name) in 1963, no guarantor.

[I remember that story. After I came across it for the first time, for
some reason I thought it was LFS' story (about threatening to take their
custom to the bank across the street) but I think I corrected myself
when it was posted again after a long time]

Re: Name changes

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 07:13:55 -0400
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 by: CDB - Sun, 15 May 2022 11:13 UTC

On 5/14/2022 3:31 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Quinn C wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels:
>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> Quinn C wrote:

>>>>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular
>>>>>>> German feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French)
>>>>>>> determines whether it's a medical massage service or the
>>>>>>> other kind.
>>>>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you
>>>>>> mean to imply "respectively"?
>>>>> BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate
>>>>> such services. One type might be called: "legitimate massage
>>>>> parlor", "legit massage parlor", or "legitimate massage
>>>>> therapy center". The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
>>>>> (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
>>>> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had
>>>> some back pain and really would have liked a massage. There
>>>> were a number of massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't
>>>> work out which was which, so I ended up having to live with the
>>>> pain.
>>> Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.

>> I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is
>> quite some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists
>> on the one hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find
>> "legit" massagists working in spas and gyms,

> I didn't mention spas because they can all too easily cross over to,
> at least, the "happy ending." (See the last or penultimate episode of
> *Schitt's Creek*.)

>> but also in "massage therapy" outlets. "Therapy" might be a
>> codeword to identify them. I don't know if it's protected, but
>> there is a Fédération québécoise des massothérapeutes agréés
>> (that's a lot of é) which tries to set some standards in a
>> profession where the government doesn't.

> There's something the Quebec government doesn't try to control??

Il exige seulement qu'il y ait une fin joyeuse.

Re: Name changes

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: bruce2bo...@gmail.com (bruce bowser)
Injection-Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 12:53:01 +0000
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 by: bruce bowser - Sun, 15 May 2022 12:53 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 7:14:02 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> On 5/14/2022 3:31 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Quinn C wrote:
> >> Peter T. Daniels:
> >>> Peter Moylan wrote:
> >>>> Stefan Ram wrote:
> >>>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>> Quinn C wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular
> >>>>>>> German feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French)
> >>>>>>> determines whether it's a medical massage service or the
> >>>>>>> other kind.
> >>>>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you
> >>>>>> mean to imply "respectively"?
> >>>>> BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate
> >>>>> such services. One type might be called: "legitimate massage
> >>>>> parlor", "legit massage parlor", or "legitimate massage
> >>>>> therapy center". The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
> >>>>> (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
> >>>> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had
> >>>> some back pain and really would have liked a massage. There
> >>>> were a number of massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't
> >>>> work out which was which, so I ended up having to live with the
> >>>> pain.
> >>> Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.
>
> >> I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is
> >> quite some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists
> >> on the one hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find
> >> "legit" massagists working in spas and gyms,
>
> > I didn't mention spas because they can all too easily cross over to,
> > at least, the "happy ending." (See the last or penultimate episode of
> > *Schitt's Creek*.)
>
> >> but also in "massage therapy" outlets. "Therapy" might be a
> >> codeword to identify them. I don't know if it's protected, but
> >> there is a Fédération québécoise des massothérapeutes agréés
> >> (that's a lot of é) which tries to set some standards in a
> >> profession where the government doesn't.
>
> > There's something the Quebec government doesn't try to control??
> Il exige seulement qu'il y ait une fin joyeuse.

All's well that ends well.

Re: Name changes

<87c8bfb7-9832-4d54-b436-c8b805494cf8n@googlegroups.com>

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From: bruce2bo...@gmail.com (bruce bowser)
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 by: bruce bowser - Sun, 15 May 2022 12:56 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:08:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 14 May 2022 14:26:16 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:04:25 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Sat, 14 May 2022 12:27:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 11:03:41 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, 14 May 2022 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> >> >On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:39:47 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >
> >> >> >> What were you reading when you came to the conclusion that I said
> >> >> >> anything about legally changing one's name?
> >> >> >> I specifically noted that I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is
> >> >> >> used to mean "what's on record". It's still in this post.
> >> >> >No, you are not Humpty Dumpty. You don't get to do that.
> >> >> Actually, any way that you define "legal", a woman who changes her
> >> >> maiden name on her driver's license or credit cards to her married
> >> >> last name is doing so legally.
> >> >Of course she is "doing so legally." Doing so is not "changing her
> >> >name legally." It is notifying the account-holder that she has a new
> >> >"legal name," but she did not acquire her new "legal name" by
> >> >changing it on a credit card or a bank account.
> >>
> >> Absolutely fascinating defense! She is changing her name legally, but
> >> not legally changing her name.
> >
> >It's truly pathetic that you think you are "entertaiing" yourself by
> >pretending you cannot understand English.
> >
> >Notifying an account-holder of a name change is, obviously, not
> >an illegal act.
> >
> >Officially changing a name is an act that is performed in accordance
> >with the laws for changing one's legal name. Usually, the name-changer
> >must demonstrate that the change is not done for the purpose of fraud,
> >and if the desired name is deemed to be obscene or otherwise problematic,
> >the relevant authority may disallow it.
> >
> >> >> There is no law prohibiting her from doing that. She is not
> >> >> committing an illegal act. She's doing so legally.
> >> >> In fact, the act of changing her maiden name to her married name is a
> >> >> legal change of names.
> >> >It is not accomplished by notifying the DMV or an account holder.
> >>
> >> And yet it is. That, and the notification to the IRS and SSA, is the
> >> performative utterance that accomplished the change.
> >
> >It most certainly is not. None of those agencies has the authority
> >to MAKE (as opposed to REGISTER) an official name change.
> The person submitting the notification makes the change which is then
> registered by the agency notified.
> >
> >You are truly pathetic, terminally stupid, and not "entertaining" anyone
> >in the least.
> >
> >> >It is accomplished through "the power vested in me by the State of XX"
> >> >-- by a _performative_.
> >>
> >> There is no applicable (to the issue of name change) performative
> >> utterance in the marriage ceremony.
> >
> >And when you're truly desperate, you wax incoherent.
> >
> >Nothing above refers to a marriage ceremony, except using an
> >example of what a performative utterance can look like.
> >
> >> The marriage itself does not change her name. When the officiant says
> >> "By the power...", the name is not changed. Otherwise, the millions
> >> of American women who retained their maiden name after marriage would
> >> have been using a name that is no longer theirs.
> >>
> >> The officiant doesn't even know what form the new name, if one is to
> >> be taken, will be. In the case of a same-sex marriage, it's not clear
> >> which party would change if your premise was the rule.
> >
> >For Christ's Sake. (In your case; you presumably had a religious wedding
> >in a Catholic church, given all you've said about your wife.) Have you
> >forgotten that you signed a LEGAL DOCUMENT in front of WITNESSES
> >who attested that you had indeed done so?
>
> No. We did not sign anything after the wedding in a Catholic church
> in Rockford, IL.

I remember back in Virginia when I was going to introduce the girl I was going to marry to my folks, she ran off with some other guy at some nightclub the night before. All that brings back terrible memories.

Re: Name changes

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:04 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:08:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 14 May 2022 14:26:16 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >For Christ's Sake. (In your case; you presumably had a religious wedding
> >in a Catholic church, given all you've said about your wife.) Have you
> >forgotten that you signed a LEGAL DOCUMENT in front of WITNESSES
> >who attested that you had indeed done so?
>
> No. We did not sign anything after the wedding in a Catholic church
> in Rockford, IL. We signed the application for the marriage license
> prior to being married. The "LEGAL DOCUMENT" provided was the
> certificate of marriage signed by the Priest.
>
> I'd have to dig it out, but I believe it has my name and my wife's
> maiden name as being joined in marriage. No WITNESSES.
>
> I have a very clear memory of this, despite it being 58 years ago,
> because we joke about it. The priest was back in his office before we
> were halfway down the aisle out of the church and we never saw him
> again that day.
>
> My wife was concerned that we didn't leave the church with a
> certificate of marriage. She was afraid we'd be refused by some hotel
> on our honeymoon trip because we couldn't prove we were married.
> We didn't get the certificate until some weeks later when she was in
> Rockford and went by the church.

That seems HIGHLY irregular. The license certifies that you have met
the legal requirements for marriage within the next two years or whatever
(having demonstrated that it wasn't incestuous, that [in those ays] you
didn't have syphilis, etc.). The certificate -- WITH WITNESSES -- certifies
that you actually went through with it.

> > When I was a witness at a wedding in NYS, it was
> >done in the minister's office in the (Unitarian) church, and the minister's
> >signature was included as the officiant. That was NOT the official
> >change of name, if there was one. I just heard from them, in connection
> >with our 50th Reunion (hence also their 50th anniversary) and they're
> >still both hyphenated.
>
> Isn't this what you so often have a tantrum over? Citing some
> experience you've had in some state with the implication that it's
> this way everywhere?
>
> No witness signature is required in Illinois.
> https://www.usmarriagelaws.com/marriage-license/marriage-witnesses-requirements/

Would be nice to see the 1960s version of that chart.
> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And misinformation.

Re: Name changes

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 14:08:18 +0000
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:08 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 7:14:02 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> On 5/14/2022 3:31 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Quinn C wrote:
> >> Peter T. Daniels:
> >>> Peter Moylan wrote:
> >>>> Stefan Ram wrote:
> >>>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>> Quinn C wrote:

> >>>>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular
> >>>>>>> German feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French)
> >>>>>>> determines whether it's a medical massage service or the
> >>>>>>> other kind.
> >>>>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you
> >>>>>> mean to imply "respectively"?
> >>>>> BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate
> >>>>> such services. One type might be called: "legitimate massage
> >>>>> parlor", "legit massage parlor", or "legitimate massage
> >>>>> therapy center". The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
> >>>>> (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
> >>>> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had
> >>>> some back pain and really would have liked a massage. There
> >>>> were a number of massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't
> >>>> work out which was which, so I ended up having to live with the
> >>>> pain.
> >>> Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.
> >> I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is
> >> quite some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists
> >> on the one hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find
> >> "legit" massagists working in spas and gyms,
> > I didn't mention spas because they can all too easily cross over to,
> > at least, the "happy ending." (See the last or penultimate episode of
> > *Schitt's Creek*.)
> >> but also in "massage therapy" outlets. "Therapy" might be a
> >> codeword to identify them. I don't know if it's protected, but
> >> there is a Fédération québécoise des massothérapeutes agréés
> >> (that's a lot of é) which tries to set some standards in a
> >> profession where the government doesn't.
> > There's something the Quebec government doesn't try to control??
>
> Il exige seulement qu'il y ait une fin joyeuse.

I can never remember all the details:

"In the US, all is permitted that is not forbidden. In Germany, all is
forbidden that is not permitted. In France, all is permitted. In the
Soviet Union, all is forbidden."

Or something like that.

Re: Name changes

<d157d5a8-882b-4659-af3a-65c610890eean@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:10 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:56:10 AM UTC-4, bruce bowser wrote:

> I remember back in Virginia when I was going to introduce the girl I was going to marry to my folks, she ran off with some other guy at some nightclub the night before. All that brings back terrible memories.

Can you blame her, if you were going to marry her to your folks?

Please type a Return after each 72 characters or so.

Re: Name changes

<sehsg876necn.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:14 UTC

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 3:07:49 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:47:05 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 13/05/22 23:06, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>
>>>>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
>>>>>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines
>>>>>>> whether it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
>>>>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to
>>>>>> imply "respectively"?
>>>>> BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate such
>>>>> services.
>>>>> One type might be called: "legitimate massage parlor", "legit massage
>>>>> parlor", or "legitimate massage therapy center".
>>>>> The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
>>>>> (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
>>>> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had some back
>>>> pain and really would have liked a massage. There were a number of
>>>> massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't work out which was which,
>>>> so I ended up having to live with the pain.
>>> Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.
>>
>> I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is quite
>> some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists on the one
>> hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find "legit"
>> massagists working in spas and gyms,
>
> I didn't mention spas because they can all too easily cross over to,
> at least, the "happy ending." (See the last or penultimate episode
> of *Schitt's Creek*.)

I have to ask, though, how much of this is reality, how much is just the
fantasy of TV writers?

>> but also in "massage therapy"
>> outlets. "Therapy" might be a codeword to identify them. I don't know if
>> it's protected, but there is a Fédération québécoise des
>> massothérapeutes agréés (that's a lot of é) which tries to set some
>> standards in a profession where the government doesn't.
>
> There's something the Quebec government doesn't try to control??

What's your problem suddenly? Nothing nearly as gross as in Texas,
Florida etc. is going on here in terms of controlling people.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Re: Name changes

<aadc244b-f503-4555-94d4-df0e8fcf5dc5n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:28 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:14:06 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 3:07:49 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Peter T. Daniels:
> >>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:47:05 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >>>> On 13/05/22 23:06, Stefan Ram wrote:
> >>>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> >>>>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
> >>>>>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines
> >>>>>>> whether it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
> >>>>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to
> >>>>>> imply "respectively"?
> >>>>> BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate such
> >>>>> services.
> >>>>> One type might be called: "legitimate massage parlor", "legit massage
> >>>>> parlor", or "legitimate massage therapy center".
> >>>>> The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
> >>>>> (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
> >>>> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had some back
> >>>> pain and really would have liked a massage. There were a number of
> >>>> massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't work out which was which,
> >>>> so I ended up having to live with the pain.
> >>> Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.
> >> I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is quite
> >> some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists on the one
> >> hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find "legit"
> >> massagists working in spas and gyms,
> > I didn't mention spas because they can all too easily cross over to,
> > at least, the "happy ending." (See the last or penultimate episode
> > of *Schitt's Creek*.)

(Patrick knows David is a mess and wants him away for the hours
before the wedding, so he gives him a spa day, telling them to give
him the full treatment. He doesn't realize what that implies and is
scandalized when David thanks him for the happy ending._)

> I have to ask, though, how much of this is reality, how much is just the
> fantasy of TV writers?

I know one person who has therapeutic massages, and he reports
that they do include the happy ending when he wants.

> >> but also in "massage therapy"
> >> outlets. "Therapy" might be a codeword to identify them. I don't know if
> >> it's protected, but there is a Fédération québécoise des
> >> massothérapeutes agréés (that's a lot of é) which tries to set some
> >> standards in a profession where the government doesn't.
> > There's something the Quebec government doesn't try to control??
>
> What's your problem suddenly? Nothing nearly as gross as in Texas,
> Florida etc. is going on here in terms of controlling people.

All I know about Quebec is what you tell us here. Oh, plus the draconian
language laws.

Texas and Florida are only interested in cotrolling people's sex lives
and ballot access.

Re: Name changes

<6v228h5hktuqh153anjoncbmlq81il631a@4ax.com>

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Tony Cooper - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:49 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 07:04:45 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:08:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 May 2022 14:26:16 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> >For Christ's Sake. (In your case; you presumably had a religious wedding
>> >in a Catholic church, given all you've said about your wife.) Have you
>> >forgotten that you signed a LEGAL DOCUMENT in front of WITNESSES
>> >who attested that you had indeed done so?
>>
>> No. We did not sign anything after the wedding in a Catholic church
>> in Rockford, IL. We signed the application for the marriage license
>> prior to being married. The "LEGAL DOCUMENT" provided was the
>> certificate of marriage signed by the Priest.
>>
>> I'd have to dig it out, but I believe it has my name and my wife's
>> maiden name as being joined in marriage. No WITNESSES.
>>
>> I have a very clear memory of this, despite it being 58 years ago,
>> because we joke about it. The priest was back in his office before we
>> were halfway down the aisle out of the church and we never saw him
>> again that day.
>>
>> My wife was concerned that we didn't leave the church with a
>> certificate of marriage. She was afraid we'd be refused by some hotel
>> on our honeymoon trip because we couldn't prove we were married.
>> We didn't get the certificate until some weeks later when she was in
>> Rockford and went by the church.
>
>That seems HIGHLY irregular. The license certifies that you have met
>the legal requirements for marriage within the next two years or whatever
>(having demonstrated that it wasn't incestuous, that [in those ays] you
>didn't have syphilis, etc.). The certificate -- WITH WITNESSES -- certifies
>that you actually went through with it.

Fortunately, no one challenged us and required proof. We drove from
Rockford to Florida, stayed overnight in Kentucky, spent several
nights in Hilton Head Island SC, several nights in Clearwater FL, and
several nights in St Petersburg Beach FL. On the way back north, we
spent one night in Georgia.

There were no stops by the Legal Marriage Detection Police in any of
the states we drove through or stayed in. No one asked for our
papers.

Your concern must be based on something done in NY or NJ that is not
done in the states we passed through.

There are 20 states on the list provided that do not require WITNESSES
(or witnesses), so I am not sure how Illinois is "HIGHLY irregular".

Just out of curiousity, is "HIGHLY irregular" more irregular than
"highly irregular"? Are "WITNESSES" more reliable confirmers than
"witnesses"?

I have never understood your reason for capitalization of certain
words.

>
>> > When I was a witness at a wedding in NYS, it was
>> >done in the minister's office in the (Unitarian) church, and the minister's
>> >signature was included as the officiant. That was NOT the official
>> >change of name, if there was one. I just heard from them, in connection
>> >with our 50th Reunion (hence also their 50th anniversary) and they're
>> >still both hyphenated.
>>
>> Isn't this what you so often have a tantrum over? Citing some
>> experience you've had in some state with the implication that it's
>> this way everywhere?
>>
>> No witness signature is required in Illinois.
>> https://www.usmarriagelaws.com/marriage-license/marriage-witnesses-requirements/
>
>Would be nice to see the 1960s version of that chart.

Note the Indiana listing: "Witnesses are no longer required by
Indiana law" which indicates change. That is not noted in the
Illinois listing.

>> --
>> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
>
>And misinformation.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Name changes

<m34k1qvo6z.fsf@leonis4.robolove.meer.net>

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From: enom...@meer.net (Madhu)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 20:27:08 +0530
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 by: Madhu - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:57 UTC

* "Peter T. Daniels" <aadc244b-f503-4555-94d4-df0e8fcf5dc5n @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Sun, 15 May 2022 07:28:33 -0700 (PDT):
> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:14:06 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>> > On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 3:07:49 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> >> I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is
>> >> quite some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists
>> >> on the one hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find
>> >> "legit" massagists working in spas and gyms,
>> > I didn't mention spas because they can all too easily cross over
>> > to, at least, the "happy ending." (See the last or penultimate
>> > episode of *Schitt's Creek*.)
>
> (Patrick knows David is a mess and wants him away for the hours before
> the wedding, so he gives him a spa day, telling them to give him the
> full treatment. He doesn't realize what that implies and is
> scandalized when David thanks him for the happy ending._)
>
>> I have to ask, though, how much of this is reality, how much is just
>> the fantasy of TV writers?
>
> I know one person who has therapeutic massages, and he reports that
> they do include the happy ending when he wants.

I didn't get any of the television references, but that's how they
nailed Ravi Zacharais after his death. Now why some evangelist would
want to own a controlling interest in a chain of spas in Atlanta, that
is beyond me.

Re: Name changes

<avyecyx2v7uo$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:58 UTC

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:14:06 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 3:07:49 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:47:05 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/05/22 23:06, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
>>>>>>>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines
>>>>>>>>> whether it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
>>>>>>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to
>>>>>>>> imply "respectively"?
>>>>>>> BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate such
>>>>>>> services.
>>>>>>> One type might be called: "legitimate massage parlor", "legit massage
>>>>>>> parlor", or "legitimate massage therapy center".
>>>>>>> The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
>>>>>>> (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
>>>>>> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had some back
>>>>>> pain and really would have liked a massage. There were a number of
>>>>>> massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't work out which was which,
>>>>>> so I ended up having to live with the pain.
>>>>> Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.
>>>> I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is quite
>>>> some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists on the one
>>>> hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find "legit"
>>>> massagists working in spas and gyms,
>>> I didn't mention spas because they can all too easily cross over to,
>>> at least, the "happy ending." (See the last or penultimate episode
>>> of *Schitt's Creek*.)
>
> (Patrick knows David is a mess and wants him away for the hours
> before the wedding, so he gives him a spa day, telling them to give
> him the full treatment. He doesn't realize what that implies and is
> scandalized when David thanks him for the happy ending._)
>
>> I have to ask, though, how much of this is reality, how much is just the
>> fantasy of TV writers?
>
> I know one person who has therapeutic massages, and he reports
> that they do include the happy ending when he wants.

If so, is that more than the general ambiguity of life? Even an
accounting meeting can have a happy ending if the participants want to.

>>>> but also in "massage therapy"
>>>> outlets. "Therapy" might be a codeword to identify them. I don't know if
>>>> it's protected, but there is a Fédération québécoise des
>>>> massothérapeutes agréés (that's a lot of é) which tries to set some
>>>> standards in a profession where the government doesn't.
>>> There's something the Quebec government doesn't try to control??
>>
>> What's your problem suddenly? Nothing nearly as gross as in Texas,
>> Florida etc. is going on here in terms of controlling people.
>
> All I know about Quebec is what you tell us here. Oh, plus the draconian
> language laws.

And what of that do you find so objectionable?

> Texas and Florida are only interested in cotrolling people's sex lives
> and ballot access.

Exactly. Which no one needs, whereas regulating professions is a service
to the community, if not overdone.

They need a Trudeau, and I mean the older one.
<https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1811727781>

Ok, one truly gross thing that Quebec does is the regulation of
"religious symbols", which clearly is aimed at Islam, affecting mostly
women, and doesn't solve any actual problem. The local culture war to
get votes based on emotions.

--
Doris did not usually leave men to port and cigars except
at large,formal dinners because Frank was a man who often
found other men's company gross and tedious.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.93

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