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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: Mutual holding game

SubjectAuthor
* Mutual holding gameTimothy Chow
+* Re: Mutual holding gameBlueDice
|`* Re: Mutual holding gameBlueDice
| `* Re: Mutual holding gameStick Rice
|  `- Re: Mutual holding gameBlueDice
+* Re: Mutual holding gameah....Clem
|`- Re: Mutual holding gameTimothy Chow
+- Re: Mutual holding gameah....Clem
`- Rollout: Mutual holding gameTimothy Chow

1
Mutual holding game

<uilh2o$2smd3$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Mutual holding game
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 10:09:12 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Fri, 10 Nov 2023 15:09 UTC

XGID=-A--CbCBB-B-b---acBcbb----:0:0:1:32:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O X | | O O O |
| O X | | O O O |
| O | | O |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | X X |
| O X X X | | X O X |
| O X X X | | X O X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 117 O: 135 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 32

---
Tim Chow

Re: Mutual holding game

<4644a54a-7706-491f-881d-abe7957c2a22n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Mutual holding game
From: bluedice...@gmail.com (BlueDice)
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 by: BlueDice - Fri, 10 Nov 2023 15:39 UTC

On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 3:09:15 PM UTC, Timothy Chow wrote:
> XGID=-A--CbCBB-B-b---acBcbb----:0:0:1:32:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | O O X | | O O O |
> | O X | | O O O |
> | O | | O |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | | | X X |
> | O X X X | | X O X |
> | O X X X | | X O X X |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 117 O: 135 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 32
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

10/7 10/8
We have a decent race lead and opp has a stronger board. A safe play is called for.
The hitting play leaves 12 return shots - too many.
We can distribute our checkers for added flexibility and clear what may become the awkward to clear 10 point soon with 10/7 10/8.
--
BD

Re: Mutual holding game

<6a4317bd-1da2-4adc-9618-52e61ecf719dn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Mutual holding game
From: bluedice...@gmail.com (BlueDice)
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 by: BlueDice - Fri, 10 Nov 2023 15:42 UTC

On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 3:39:17 PM UTC, BlueDice wrote:
> On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 3:09:15 PM UTC, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > XGID=-A--CbCBB-B-b---acBcbb----:0:0:1:32:0:0:0:0:10
> >
> > Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> > +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> > | O O X | | O O O |
> > | O X | | O O O |
> > | O | | O |
> > | | | |
> > | | | |
> > | |BAR| |
> > | | | |
> > | | | |
> > | | | X X |
> > | O X X X | | X O X |
> > | O X X X | | X O X X |
> > +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> > Pip count X: 117 O: 135 X-O: 0-0
> > Cube: 1
> > X to play 32
> >
> > ---
> > Tim Chow
> 10/7 10/8
> We have a decent race lead and opp has a stronger board. A safe play is called for.
> The hitting play leaves 12 return shots - too many.
> We can distribute our checkers for added flexibility and clear what may become the awkward to clear 10 point soon with 10/7 10/8.
> --
> BD
Edit: 11 return shots
--
BD

Re: Mutual holding game

<d879c88d-5044-420b-b995-10b68424df30n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Mutual holding game
From: bananabo...@gmail.com (Stick Rice)
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 by: Stick Rice - Fri, 10 Nov 2023 22:05 UTC

On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 10:42:16 AM UTC-5, BlueDice wrote:
> On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 3:39:17 PM UTC, BlueDice wrote:
> > On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 3:09:15 PM UTC, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > > XGID=-A--CbCBB-B-b---acBcbb----:0:0:1:32:0:0:0:0:10
> > >
> > > Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> > > +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> > > | O O X | | O O O |
> > > | O X | | O O O |
> > > | O | | O |
> > > | | | |
> > > | | | |
> > > | |BAR| |
> > > | | | |
> > > | | | |
> > > | | | X X |
> > > | O X X X | | X O X |
> > > | O X X X | | X O X X |
> > > +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> > > Pip count X: 117 O: 135 X-O: 0-0
> > > Cube: 1
> > > X to play 32
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Tim Chow
> > 10/7 10/8
> > We have a decent race lead and opp has a stronger board. A safe play is called for.
> > The hitting play leaves 12 return shots - too many.
> > We can distribute our checkers for added flexibility and clear what may become the awkward to clear 10 point soon with 10/7 10/8.
> > --
> > BD
> Edit: 11 return shots
> --
> BD

What hitting play are you making that leaves roughly that amount of return shots? I think you're miscounting.

Stick

Re: Mutual holding game

<uimad8$31rru$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Mutual holding game
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 17:21:30 -0500
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 by: ah....Clem - Fri, 10 Nov 2023 22:21 UTC

On 11/10/2023 10:09 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> XGID=-A--CbCBB-B-b---acBcbb----:0:0:1:32:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
>  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>  |          O  O  X |   | O  O  O          |
>  |             O  X |   | O  O  O          |
>  |             O    |   | O                |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |BAR|                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |   | X     X          |
>  | O     X     X  X |   | X  O  X          |
>  | O     X     X  X |   | X  O  X        X |
>  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count  X: 117  O: 135 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 32
>

"Don't volunteer a shot in a holding game."

Does that apply here? Hitting and covering the ace is tempting, but
seems to leave too many return shots. X is ahead in the race, so no need
for heroics. Either clear the eight point or make the ace followed by
4/2. I prefer to keep the ace so I'll go with the latter, despite the
fact that it strips all my points.

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Re: Mutual holding game

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Mutual holding game
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 17:25:13 -0500
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 by: ah....Clem - Fri, 10 Nov 2023 22:25 UTC

On 11/10/2023 10:09 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> XGID=-A--CbCBB-B-b---acBcbb----:0:0:1:32:0:0:0:0:10
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
>  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>  |          O  O  X |   | O  O  O          |
>  |             O  X |   | O  O  O          |
>  |             O    |   | O                |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |BAR|                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  |                  |   | X     X          |
>  | O     X     X  X |   | X  O  X          |
>  | O     X     X  X |   | X  O  X        X |
>  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count  X: 117  O: 135 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 32

Since we're playing legal moves here, I'll withdraw my previous play.

Hitting and covering is still tempting, but with the race lead seems to
leave too many shots.

Clearing the ten looks sound, but I'll still go with covering the ace
point. At least all my points won't be stripped.

6/1,

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Re: Mutual holding game

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Subject: Re: Mutual holding game
From: bluedice...@gmail.com (BlueDice)
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 by: BlueDice - Sat, 11 Nov 2023 08:32 UTC

On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 10:05:19 PM UTC, Stick Rice wrote:
> On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 10:42:16 AM UTC-5, BlueDice wrote:
> > On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 3:39:17 PM UTC, BlueDice wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 3:09:15 PM UTC, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > > > XGID=-A--CbCBB-B-b---acBcbb----:0:0:1:32:0:0:0:0:10
> > > >
> > > > Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> > > > +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> > > > | O O X | | O O O |
> > > > | O X | | O O O |
> > > > | O | | O |
> > > > | | | |
> > > > | | | |
> > > > | |BAR| |
> > > > | | | |
> > > > | | | |
> > > > | | | X X |
> > > > | O X X X | | X O X |
> > > > | O X X X | | X O X X |
> > > > +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> > > > Pip count X: 117 O: 135 X-O: 0-0
> > > > Cube: 1
> > > > X to play 32
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Tim Chow
> > > 10/7 10/8
> > > We have a decent race lead and opp has a stronger board. A safe play is called for.
> > > The hitting play leaves 12 return shots - too many.
> > > We can distribute our checkers for added flexibility and clear what may become the awkward to clear 10 point soon with 10/7 10/8.
> > > --
> > > BD
> > Edit: 11 return shots
> > --
> > BD
> What hitting play are you making that leaves roughly that amount of return shots? I think you're miscounting.
>
> Stick

Yes, bad hair day, the hitting play, 18/16* 4/1 leaves 20 shots.
--
BD

Rollout: Mutual holding game

<uit89o$lool$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Rollout: Mutual holding game
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:28:23 -0500
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 by: Timothy Chow - Mon, 13 Nov 2023 13:28 UTC

XGID=-A--CbCBB-B-b---acBcbb----:0:0:1:32:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O X | | O O O |
| O X | | O O O |
| O | | O |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | X X |
| O X X X | | X O X |
| O X X X | | X O X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 117 O: 135 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 32

An obvious candidate play is to hit and cover with 18/16* 4/1. But this
play gives O a ton of return shots, since O's entering and hitting
numbers are perfectly diversified (2,3,5 to enter and 1,4,6 to hit, not
to mention the doublets 22 and 33). According to the rollout, 18/16* 4/1
is a whopper with cheese. Given this verdict, it may be surprising how
much difference it makes if we weaken O's board slightly; see the
variant below.

1. Rollout¹ 10/8 10/7 eq:+0.235
Player: 58.11% (G:6.22% B:0.11%)
Opponent: 41.89% (G:6.14% B:0.22%)
Confidence: ±0.009 (+0.226..+0.244) - [100.0%]

2. Rollout¹ 6/3 4/2 eq:+0.208 (-0.027)
Player: 56.74% (G:6.73% B:0.12%)
Opponent: 43.26% (G:7.29% B:0.26%)
Confidence: ±0.010 (+0.197..+0.218) - [0.0%]

3. Rollout¹ 4/2 4/1 eq:+0.196 (-0.039)
Player: 56.46% (G:6.23% B:0.08%)
Opponent: 43.54% (G:7.27% B:0.25%)
Confidence: ±0.010 (+0.186..+0.205) - [0.0%]

4. Rollout¹ 6/1 eq:+0.159 (-0.076)
Player: 55.56% (G:6.36% B:0.11%)
Opponent: 44.44% (G:8.12% B:0.28%)
Confidence: ±0.010 (+0.149..+0.169) - [0.0%]

5. Rollout¹ 18/16* 4/1 eq:+0.084 (-0.151)
Player: 53.52% (G:11.27% B:0.26%)
Opponent: 46.48% (G:12.09% B:0.43%)
Confidence: ±0.015 (+0.069..+0.099) - [0.0%]

¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

-------
Variant
-------

XGID=-A--CbCBB-B-b---acBcb-b---:0:0:1:32:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O X | | O O O |
| O X | | O O O |
| O | | O |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | X X |
| O X X X | | X O X |
| O X X X | | X O X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 117 O: 133 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 32

1. Rollout¹ 18/16* 4/1 eq:+0.257
Player: 57.84% (G:12.28% B:0.31%)
Opponent: 42.16% (G:11.00% B:0.35%)
Confidence: ±0.007 (+0.250..+0.263) - [97.3%]

2. Rollout¹ 10/8 10/7 eq:+0.249 (-0.008)
Player: 58.26% (G:6.24% B:0.10%)
Opponent: 41.74% (G:5.78% B:0.19%)
Confidence: ±0.005 (+0.243..+0.254) - [2.7%]

¹ 5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

---
Tim Chow

Re: Mutual holding game

<uitbe8$m8b2$1@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=13102&group=rec.games.backgammon#13102

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Mutual holding game
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:21:59 -0500
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 by: Timothy Chow - Mon, 13 Nov 2023 14:21 UTC

On 11/10/2023 5:21 PM, ah....Clem wrote:
> "Don't volunteer a shot in a holding game."

I think this is a useful adage, but it's an interesting question
how to apply it here. If it's bad to volunteer a shot, then did
the opponent make a mistake by giving us a shot? If so, then
should we punish that mistake by hitting? And if we're not
supposed to hit, then maybe it's not such a bad thing to leave
a shot, if the opponent has to leave too many return shots when
hitting it.

---
Tim Chow

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