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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

SubjectAuthor
* Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistspains...@gmail.com
 |`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | ||+- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | ||`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isoccam
 | || +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistAthel Cornish-Bowden
 | || |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | || +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isoccam
 | || ||`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isoccam
 | || || | `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPaul Wolff
 | || || |  |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |  ||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  ||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isSilvano
 | || || |  |||+- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |  |||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | || || |  ||||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |  |||||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | || || |  ||||||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |  |||||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  ||||+- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isSilvano
 | || || |  ||||`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  |||| `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistKen Blake
 | || || |  |||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  ||`* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPaul Wolff
 | || || |  || +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  || |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |  || ||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper
 | || || |  || |||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  || ||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | || || |  || |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  || `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |  `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |   +* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isoccam
 | || || |   |+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |   ||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isoccam
 | || || |   |||+* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isPeter Moylan
 | || || |   ||||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |   |||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isRichard Heathfield
 | || || |   ||`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |   |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || |   `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || || `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistbruce bowser
 | || |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | || `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isPeter Moylan
 | ||  `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | ||   `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isCDB
 | ||    `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistQuinn C
 | |+- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistAthel Cornish-Bowden
 | |`- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
 | `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistAthel Cornish-Bowden
 |  `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isPeter Moylan
 |   +- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistAthel Cornish-Bowden
 |   `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isKerr-Mudd, John
 |    `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program isPeter Moylan
 `* Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistPeter T. Daniels
  `- Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racistTony Cooper

Pages:123
Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

<4fe07972-4071-469a-8718-50d89762d127n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 14:36 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 7:13:22 PM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 9:08 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim.
> Indeed. I'm just finding out on what little evidence people
> persuade themselves of media claims, and am amused but mildly
> appalled to discover that the answer is "almost zero".
> > He's playing
> > pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence"
> I'm not *demanding* evidence. I'm *asking* whether there is any.
> Turns out there can't be very much. If there were plenty, it
> would be quick and easy to produce some unequivocal primary
> sources. Instead, people hand-wave away the need, and expect me
> to be convinced by the same hearsay that convinced them.

For Christ's Sake. Either Carlson's programs are on YouTube, or
else you can (probably) pay to watch them on the Fox News
web site. Most of us have seen enough excerpts that we have
no interest whatsoever in sitting through an hour of it at a time
to slake Heathfield's salacious cravings.

> > and discounting
> > anything said or written as hearsay.
>
> There's a reason hearsay is discounted in criminal trials; people
> are not above just making stuff up about people they don't like.

Except for the slight problem that it's not hearsay. There are 1100
hours of it out there.

> If someone were to accuse you of being a racist, I'd want them to
> support the claim by producing Usenet articles *you'd* posted,
> not by producing article after article after article posted by
> other people talking *about* you. I'd have thought this were
> common sense, but apparently not.

Believe it or not, court testimony can include descriptions of
what people saw other people do.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

<ce2ac537-6a13-42a9-a9b0-987949107e3bn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 14:38 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 7:16:16 PM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 11:15 pm, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 May 2022, at 16:08:50, Tony Cooper posted:
> >> On Fri, 13 May 2022 20:39:07 +0200, occam <nob...@nowhere.nix>
> >> wrote:
> >>> On 13/05/2022 17:19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> >>>> None is so blind as him who will not see.
> >>>> Or refuses to look at the evidence.
> >>> He is trying to pull my leg, Daniels. He seems to be having
> >>> more success
> >>> with you, however.
> >> What PTD is not recognizing is that Heathfield will pull any chain
> >> left accessible. PTD drags his in a wider arc than Diana's
> >> wedding
> >> dress train.
> >> By this time, Heathfield is probably quite aware that Carlson
> >> presents
> >> racism in his commentary, and that Trump was after the racist
> >> votes.

Heathfield fails to comment on this misperception of his claims.

> >> In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim. He's playing
> >> pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence" and discounting
> >> anything said or written as hearsay.
> > That is perfectly reasonable, isn't it? It's not for nothing that
> > law courts decline to admit hearsay evidence. When someone is
> > asked to produce evidence, and all they can manage is a
> > third-party account of something that said third party says they
> > saw or heard or read, you have to wonder why the primary evidence
> > is so elusive.
>
> Ah! Someone understands! Most refreshing. Thank you, sir.

The "someone" has been misled as to the facts.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

<7lqv7hpk20eklq2k2deiuerp4h8a4e843m@4ax.com>

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 10:46:34 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Sat, 14 May 2022 17:46 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 08:50:51 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 14 May 2022 08:06:14 -0400, CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 5/14/2022 4:50 AM, Silvano wrote:
>>> Tony Cooper hat geschrieben:
>>
>>>> The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker
>>>> Carlson's style. He communicates racism by innuendo, facial
>>>> gestures, and body English.
>>
>>> Can you please explain to a foreigner what "body English" means?
>>
>>RichardH has given you the correct definition of "body English", but you
>>should know that Tony misspoke: he should have said "body language".
>
>Yes, that is the term I was thinking of.

I also knew you meant "body language," but to me what you meant was
very clear from the rest of the statement.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

<b0000c0e-0203-4d42-9673-499a9633824fn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 18:56 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 2:38:51 AM UTC-4, occam wrote:
> On 14/05/2022 01:13, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > On 13/05/2022 9:08 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >> In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim.
> > Indeed. I'm just finding out on what little evidence people persuade
> > themselves of media claims, and am amused but mildly appalled to
> > discover that the answer is "almost zero".
> >> He's playing
> >> pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence"
> > I'm not *demanding* evidence. I'm *asking* whether there is any. Turns
> > out there can't be very much. If there were plenty, it would be quick
> > and easy to produce some unequivocal primary sources. Instead, people
> > hand-wave away the need, and expect me to be convinced by the same
> > hearsay that convinced them.
> >> and discounting
> >> anything said or written as hearsay.
> > There's a reason hearsay is discounted in criminal trials; people are
> > not above just making stuff up about people they don't like.
> > If someone were to accuse you of being a racist, I'd want them to
> > support the claim by producing Usenet articles *you'd* posted, not by
> > producing article after article after article posted by other people
> > talking *about* you. I'd have thought this were common sense, but
> > apparently not.
>
> Yet you discount an article written by the Washington Post (my URL) -
> quoting verbatim something Trump said, as an 'unreliable source'.
> Neither you nor I attend Trumps speeches (primary source), but when a
> serious newspaper *quotes* (not just reports) something the President of
> the USA has said, you dismiss that as unreliable information. I do not
> regard that as 'common sense' on your part. It is delusional, verging on
> paranoia. (Shades of your Brexit stance here, not that long ago.)

T****'s statement is constantly replayed on US media, even now. We
do not need to rely on transcripts in news sources.

For the terminally stupid:

https://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/2015/06/25/29292957/

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

<92555ffd-9331-406d-aefb-6095229204c5n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 19:00 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 8:39:39 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 14/05/2022 1:06 pm, CDB wrote:
> > On 5/14/2022 4:50 AM, Silvano wrote:
> >> Tony Cooper hat geschrieben:

> >>> The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker
> >>> Carlson's style. He communicates racism by innuendo, facial
> >>> gestures, and body [language].
>
> Aye. We know Carlson's racist because although he might not
> actually say anything racist he don't 'arf *look* racist to me,
> guvnor, and a nod's as good as a wink to a blind 'orse, eh? White
> bloke in a smart suit, and on telly to boot? No-brainer.

Why is Heathfield too stubborn to listen to the "Fresh Air" interview (or
perhaps read the transcript), which answers those mindless objections
with facts and audio clips?

Among the evidence is his copious repetition of the phrases and memes
used by the white supremacist web sites and podcasts that proliferate.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sat, 14 May 2022 19:03 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 3:47:30 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 14/05/2022 7:38 am, occam wrote:

> > Yet you discount an article written by the Washington Post (my URL) -
> No. I think the Post is an unreliable source,

On what grounds?

Which media do you consider "reliable sources"?

This seems to be nothing but the resurfacing of Heathfield's solipsism,
or sheer egoism, that I identified months ago.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: bounc...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk (Paul Wolff)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 22:45:14 +0100
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 by: Paul Wolff - Sat, 14 May 2022 21:45 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022, at 23:51:38, Tony Cooper posted:
>On Fri, 13 May 2022 23:15:36 +0100, Paul Wolff
>>On Fri, 13 May 2022, at 16:08:50, Tony Cooper posted:
>>>On Fri, 13 May 2022 20:39:07 +0200, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>On 13/05/2022 17:19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> None is so blind as him who will not see.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or refuses to look at the evidence.
>>>>
>>>>He is trying to pull my leg, Daniels. He seems to be having more success
>>>>with you, however.
>>>
>>>What PTD is not recognizing is that Heathfield will pull any chain
>>>left accessible. PTD drags his in a wider arc than Diana's wedding
>>>dress train.
>>>
>>>By this time, Heathfield is probably quite aware that Carlson presents
>>>racism in his commentary, and that Trump was after the racist votes.
>>>In fact, Heathfield is not denying either claim. He's playing
>>>pull-the-chain with his demands for "evidence" and discounting
>>>anything said or written as hearsay.
>>>
>>That is perfectly reasonable, isn't it? It's not for nothing that law
>>courts decline to admit hearsay evidence. When someone is asked to
>>produce evidence, and all they can manage is a third-party account of
>>something that said third party says they saw or heard or read, you have
>>to wonder why the primary evidence is so elusive.
>>
>>I'm finding this little spat quite amusing. People's characters are
>>showing. It's beginning to look to me, a disinterested observer, as if
>>it's easier to show newsreel footage of Captain Carlsson on the doomed
>>Flying Enterprise than it is to show footage of the modern Carlson
>>actually making one of the reported speeches that prove him a racist.
>
>The major problem in providing "evidence" in this is Tucker Carlson's
>style. He communicates racism by innuendo, facial gestures, and body
>English. You won't catch him making an overtly racist comment, but he
>can make a relatively innocuous comment and convey an unmistakable
>overtone that is visible to viewer. In print, you don't notice it.
>
>Consider a question like "Why do we prosecute concerned citizens who
>protest at our nation's capital but not a mob who burn and loot in
>Minneapolis?"
>
>Is there "evidence" in that question that the asker is a racist? The
>terms (concerned citizens vs mob and protest vs burn and loot) are
>loaded, but it's not overtly racist.

I shouldn't let myself be sucked in here, but Tony's made a good honest
attempt to answer my point, and deserves at least a modest response.

When I look at that question, I see a question worth asking, because we
ought to consider the reasons that our (or in this case, your) society
acts as it does. I know that people can quite easily be led to accept
the dogma of the moment, current thinking, especially if expressed by
someone they admire. Not enough people actually think their opinions
through. (Cynic says, perhaps they can't manage that beyond 5 seconds.)
>
>When Tucker delivers that question on television, his facial
>expression and emphasis on a word like "mob" makes it clear who he is
>identifying as the bad guys.

Yes, but. From what I saw on tv reports, they all included pretty bad
elements. So he sided with the Trump faction. Is racism the only
explanation? I would expect others to be possible, but I'm not a close
enough observer to suggest those others.
>
>That technique is part of Tucker's style. Rather than make a
>statement, he poses a question but in such a way that we know what his
>bias is. TV is visual, and the visual aspect is not just the words.
>
>I suppose that with enough effort, video clips can be found and linked
>to, but to what end?

I've forgotten the start of this. But it became an interesting spectacle
when no-one could answer the challenge to show they were justified.
>
>Those of us in the US who have some exposure to Tucker from clips
>don't need to be convinced. We're not marking and saving those clips
>to provide "evidence" to convince Heathfield.
>
>Frankly, who cares what Heathfield thinks on this issue? What's
>gained if we could convince him?

As I see it, it's a debating challenge. Party A acts all indignant and
accuses Party B of racism, Party C says I think you'll have to convince
me before I jump on to your band-waggon, and it becomes an interesting
exercise in seeing who is actually being truthful.
>
>I don't think he'd admit if he was convinced that Tucker is a racist.
>That would end the game he's playing here.
>
It is a game of sorts, but with a serious undercurrent. No true
philosopher would let that 'racist' assertion pass unexamined.

I think you can drop chain-pulling as the motivation. More likely, when
you see someone wriggling under pressure, you press harder, to expose
their flaws. Any good barrister (prosecutor) knows that.
--
Paul

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 19:06:44 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Sat, 14 May 2022 23:06 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 22:45:14 +0100, Paul Wolff
<bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

>Those of us in the US who have some exposure to Tucker from clips
>>don't need to be convinced. We're not marking and saving those clips
>>to provide "evidence" to convince Heathfield.
>>
>>Frankly, who cares what Heathfield thinks on this issue? What's
>>gained if we could convince him?
>
>As I see it, it's a debating challenge.

If you consider it a debate, then you should consider what our
positions are. Heathfield's position is that there has been no
evidence produced that establishes that Tucker Carlson is a racist.

My positition is that I agree that no evidence has been produced, or
can be produced, that proves Carlson is a racist, and that - and this
is important - that I'm not personally convinced that Carlson is a
racist.

Carlson is a television commentator whose agenda is to build an
audience that will result in sponsors of his program. To do this, he
tailors his commentary to appeal to the type of viewers who watch Fox
News, and evidently feels that his expected audience will relate to
racially provocative subjects. Consequently, Carlson's commentaries
are often racially charged perceptively if not overtly.

He's saying what he thinks his audience wants to hear, not necessarily
saying what he actually thinks. He doesn't have to be a racist to say
things that are racist if he's saying them to achieve an end. His
"end" is ratings for the program.

In this country, we see politicians taking the public position that
they are dedicated supporters of Donald Trump, and privately admitting
that they wish Trump would fade into obscurity. They are doing
publicly what Carlson may be doing: telling people what they want to
hear in order to personally gain. Election or re-election in their
case or the desire for an endorsement by Trump.

As far as not caring what Heathfield thinks on this issue, that a
position based on thinking that winning over Heathfield in this issue
is not of interest to me. If it was a subject in which I felt I could
provide satisfactory debate material, I would.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
racist
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 02:42:35 +0100
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Sun, 15 May 2022 01:42 UTC

On 15/05/2022 12:06 am, Tony Cooper wrote:

<snip>

>
> As far as not caring what Heathfield thinks on this issue, that a
> position based on thinking that winning over Heathfield in this issue
> is not of interest to me. If it was a subject in which I felt I could
> provide satisfactory debate material, I would.

Fair enough. If I am disappointed that you are not clenching your
seat in tense anticipation of my next revelation about my
thinking, I will attempt to rein in my disappointment. (I am
crushed, sir; crushed!)

It should never be about winning, of course, but always about
reaching nearer the truth.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 00:00:11 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Sun, 15 May 2022 04:00 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 02:42:35 +0100, Richard Heathfield
<rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>On 15/05/2022 12:06 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>
>> As far as not caring what Heathfield thinks on this issue, that a
>> position based on thinking that winning over Heathfield in this issue
>> is not of interest to me. If it was a subject in which I felt I could
>> provide satisfactory debate material, I would.
>
>
>Fair enough. If I am disappointed that you are not clenching your
>seat in tense anticipation of my next revelation about my
>thinking, I will attempt to rein in my disappointment. (I am
>crushed, sir; crushed!)
>
>It should never be about winning, of course, but always about
>reaching nearer the truth.

It's "winning" if it's in sense of setting someone straight on
something in which they are mistaken about facts. Recently someone
made the claim that a photo ID is required to vote in Florida. It is
true where the voter votes in person, but not true when the voter
votes by mail and any voter can vote by mail if they choose to. The
generality, then, is fallacious.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is
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Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 07:00:44 -0400
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 by: CDB - Sun, 15 May 2022 11:00 UTC

On 5/14/2022 9:42 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> Tony Cooper wrote:

> <snip>

>> As far as not caring what Heathfield thinks on this issue, that a
>> position based on thinking that winning over Heathfield in this
>> issue is not of interest to me. If it was a subject in which I
>> felt I could provide satisfactory debate material, I would.

> Fair enough. If I am disappointed that you are not clenching your
> seat

That feat would prove Tony has still got it, in parts.

> in tense anticipation of my next revelation about my thinking, I
> will attempt to rein in my disappointment. (I am crushed, sir;
> crushed!)

> It should never be about winning, of course, but always about
> reaching nearer the truth.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sun, 15 May 2022 13:29 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:51:30 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:

> Yes, but. From what I saw on tv reports,

That's the problem. "If it bleeds, it leads." I can't know what your
TV news showed you about the demonstrations in Portland,
Oregon (which is what they're usually talking about), but that
was a massive peaceful protest lasting many days, and interspersed
were a few incidents of attacks on police precincts.

Very different from a mob storming the Capitol.

> they all included pretty bad
> elements. So he sided with the Trump faction. Is racism the only
> explanation? I would expect others to be possible, but I'm not a close
> enough observer to suggest those others.

No one suggests Carlson is motivated _only_ by racism. The problem
is that Heathfield has focused on that one single question and demands
something like a statement "I hate black people" before he will believe
that someone exhibits racism.

> >That technique is part of Tucker's style. Rather than make a
> >statement, he poses a question but in such a way that we know what his
> >bias is. TV is visual, and the visual aspect is not just the words.
> >
> >I suppose that with enough effort, video clips can be found and linked
> >to, but to what end?
> I've forgotten the start of this. But it became an interesting spectacle
> when no-one could answer the challenge to show they were justified.

The team from the New York Times did exactly that. That some people
refuse to look at the evidence they gathered from 1100 hours of suffering
through Carlson's rantings is hardly the investigators' fault.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sun, 15 May 2022 13:37 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:06:50 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 14 May 2022 22:45:14 +0100, Paul Wolff
> <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> >Those of us in the US who have some exposure to Tucker from clips
> >>don't need to be convinced. We're not marking and saving those clips
> >>to provide "evidence" to convince Heathfield.
> >>Frankly, who cares what Heathfield thinks on this issue? What's
> >>gained if we could convince him?
> >As I see it, it's a debating challenge.
>
> If you consider it a debate, then you should consider what our
> positions are. Heathfield's position is that there has been no
> evidence produced that establishes that Tucker Carlson is a racist.

Please see the header I wrote when I started this thread. "... that
Carlson's PROGRAM is racist."

> My positition is that I agree that no evidence has been produced, or
> can be produced, that proves Carlson is a racist, and that - and this
> is important - that I'm not personally convinced that Carlson is a
> racist.
>
> Carlson is a television commentator whose agenda is to build an
> audience that will result in sponsors of his program.

In fact, it isn't. Few sponsors can be found for his program, and Fox
News would get along very, very nicely without carrying any advertising
at all, because everyone in the country with some sort of Basic Cable
program is paying them something like $3 a month for the "privilege"
of having the program available. You are also paying something like
$1.50 for Fox Business, which has something like 10,000 viewers
total.

> To do this, he
> tailors his commentary to appeal to the type of viewers who watch Fox
> News, and evidently feels that his expected audience will relate to
> racially provocative subjects. Consequently, Carlson's commentaries
> are often racially charged perceptively if not overtly.

Because he uses what have come to be called "dog whistles." He repeats
the memes of white supremacists and especially "replacement theory"
-- which also motivated yesterday's mass murderer in Buffalo, NY: The
fear that "white people" are being "replaced" in the US by non-white people.
(I don't know whether they explain why that's a Bad Thing.)

> He's saying what he thinks his audience wants to hear, not necessarily
> saying what he actually thinks. He doesn't have to be a racist to say
> things that are racist if he's saying them to achieve an end. His
> "end" is ratings for the program.
>
> In this country, we see politicians taking the public position that
> they are dedicated supporters of Donald Trump, and privately admitting
> that they wish Trump would fade into obscurity. They are doing
> publicly what Carlson may be doing: telling people what they want to
> hear in order to personally gain. Election or re-election in their
> case or the desire for an endorsement by Trump.
>
> As far as not caring what Heathfield thinks on this issue, that a
> position based on thinking that winning over Heathfield in this issue
> is not of interest to me. If it was a subject in which I felt I could
> provide satisfactory debate material, I would.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sun, 15 May 2022 13:39 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 12:00:16 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Recently someone
> made the claim that a photo ID is required to vote in Florida. It is
> true where the voter votes in person, but not true when the voter
> votes by mail and any voter can vote by mail if they choose to. The
> generality, then, is fallacious.
> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And lies about other threads. No one made any such claim.

Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist

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Subject: Re: Heathfield wanted evidence that Tucker Carlson's program is racist
From: bruce2bo...@gmail.com (bruce bowser)
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 by: bruce bowser - Sun, 15 May 2022 20:53 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:59:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 13/05/2022 2:34 pm, occam wrote:
> > On 13/05/2022 11:09, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >> On 13/05/2022 9:07 am, occam wrote:
> >>> On 13/05/2022 00:14, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 22:21:44 +0100, Richard Heathfield
> >>>> <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ObSubjectLine: I note that the best evidence presented
> >>>>> so far for the claim that Tucker Carlson is a racist
> >>>>> (about which claim I have no opinion other than that
> >>>>> it is unproved) is a few newspaper articles tucked
> >>>>> behind paywalls; no openly accessible and verifiable
> >>>>> primary sources from Carlson himself whatsoever have
> >>>>> been produced. We are expected to believe he's a
> >>>>> racist because some people have said he is (as if
> >>>>> people never lie about stuff like that). Well, maybe
> >>>>> he is, and maybe he ain't, but I mislaid my
> >>>>> gullibility several decades ago.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't know how to *prove* someone is or isn't a
> >>>> racist.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Of course you can. If that someone - whoever he may be,
> >>> whatever shade of orange he may be - says:
> >>>
> >>> "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their
> >>> best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you.
> >>> They're sending people that have lots of problems, and
> >>> they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing
> >>> drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some,
> >>> I assume, are good people."
> >>>
> >>> You can assume the speaker is not only illiterate, he is
> >>> also a racist.
> >>
> >> No doubt you can source the quote, or it can be dismissed a
> >> la Hitchens's Razor.
> >
> > Source:
> > https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/08/donald-trumps-false-comments-connecting-mexican-immigrants-and-crime/
> If you consider the Washington Post (a wholly owned subsidiary of
> Jeff Bezos) to be a reliable source, I don't think we're going to
> have a meaningful discussion,

The difference is: "does everyone else think its reliable".

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