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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: Name changes

SubjectAuthor
* Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
+* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|`* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
| `* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|  +* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |+- Re: Which sentence is better?wugi
|  |`* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|  | `* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  |   `- Re: Which sentence is better?Stefan Ram
|  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
|   `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|    `* Re: Which sentence is better?Madhu
|     `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|      `* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|       `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|        `* Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
|         `* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
|          `- Re: Which sentence is better?Bebercito
+- Re: Which sentence is better?Adam Funk
+* Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
|+* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||+* Re: Which sentence is better?bil...@shaw.ca
|||+* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter T. Daniels
||||+- Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||||`- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
|||`* Re: Which sentence is better?CDB
||| `* Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
|||  `* Re: Which sentence is better?CDB
|||   `- Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
||+- Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||`* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
|| `* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||  +* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
||  |`- Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||  +- Re: Which sentence is better?charles
||  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||   +* Re: Which sentence is better?charles
||   |`* Re: Which sentence is better?Peter Moylan
||   | `* Re: Which sentence is better?Athel Cornish-Bowden
||   |  +- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
||   |  `* Re: Which sentence is better?Sam Plusnet
||   |   `- Re: Which sentence is better?bruce bowser
||   +* Re: Which sentence is better?Tony Cooper
||   |+* Re: Which sentence is better?Lewis
||   ||`- Re: Which sentence is better?lar3ryca
||   |`- Re: Which sentence is better?Ken Blake
||   `* Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Quinn C
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Tony Cooper
||    |`* Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | `- Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Lewis
||    |+- Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)charles
||    |`* Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | +* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | |`* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | +* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | |+* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | | ||`- Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |+* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||+- Re: Name changesBebercito
||    | | ||`* Re: Name changesbil...@shaw.ca
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesTony Cooper
||    | | || ||`- Re: Name changesAthel Cornish-Bowden
||    | | || |+- Re: Name changesAthel Cornish-Bowden
||    | | || |`- Re: Name changesAnders D. Nygaard
||    | | || `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||  `* Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | ||   `- Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | |+* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||+* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | |||`* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||| `* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | |||  `- Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||+* Re: Name changesHibou
||    | | |||+* Re: Name changesRichard Heathfield
||    | | ||||+* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||+* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | ||||||`* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||| `* Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||||||  `* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | ||||||   `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||||    +- Re: Name changesQuinn C
||    | | ||||||    `- Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | |||||`- Re: Name changesbruce bowser
||    | | ||||`* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | | |||| `* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||||  `* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||   `* Re: Name changesSnidely
||    | | ||||    `* Re: Name changesKerr-Mudd, John
||    | | ||||     +* Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||     |`* Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | ||||     | `* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | ||||     |  `* Re: Name changeslar3ryca
||    | | ||||     |   `- Re: Name changesSam Plusnet
||    | | ||||     `- Re: Name changesbruce bowser
||    | | |||`- Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | ||`* Re: Name changesJanet
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesPeter Moylan
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesJanet
||    | | || |+* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | || |`* Re: Name changesLewis
||    | | || +* Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | || `* Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | | |`* Re: Name changesJerry Friedman
||    | | +* Re: Name changesCDB
||    | | +- Re: Name changesPeter T. Daniels
||    | | `- Re: Name changesKen Blake
||    | +* Re: Name changesAdam Funk
||    | `* Re: Name changesCDB
||    +* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Peter T. Daniels
||    `* Re: Name changes (was: Which sentence is better?)Ken Blake
|`* Re: Which sentence is better?Adam Funk
+* Re: Which sentence is better?Anders D. Nygaard
`- Re: Which sentence is better?Ruud Harmsen

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Re: Name changes

<dc68260e-f854-4ceb-a24a-4458cd04d44en@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sun, 15 May 2022 15:44 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:49:41 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 15 May 2022 07:04:45 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:08:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >> https://www.usmarriagelaws.com/marriage-license/marriage-witnesses-requirements/
> >Would be nice to see the 1960s version of that chart.
>
> Note the Indiana listing: "Witnesses are no longer required by
> Indiana law" which indicates change. That is not noted in the
> Illinois listing.

I don't know the year of your wedding. It may have been under the
new Illinois Constitution, the one that (first in the nation) decriminalized
homosexual acts. If that's when such a change took place, it would be
ancient history at the time the listings were compiled.

Re: Name changes

<8de13fef-b5de-4eb0-b599-e612b08d3cc0n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sun, 15 May 2022 15:52 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:58:39 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:14:06 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Peter T. Daniels:
> >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 3:07:49 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:47:05 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >>>>>> On 13/05/22 23:06, Stefan Ram wrote:
> >>>>>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
> >>>>>>>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines
> >>>>>>>>> whether it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
> >>>>>>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to
> >>>>>>>> imply "respectively"?
> >>>>>>> BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate such
> >>>>>>> services.
> >>>>>>> One type might be called: "legitimate massage parlor", "legit massage
> >>>>>>> parlor", or "legitimate massage therapy center".
> >>>>>>> The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
> >>>>>>> (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
> >>>>>> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had some back
> >>>>>> pain and really would have liked a massage. There were a number of
> >>>>>> massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't work out which was which,
> >>>>>> so I ended up having to live with the pain.
> >>>>> Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.
> >>>> I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is quite
> >>>> some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists on the one
> >>>> hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find "legit"
> >>>> massagists working in spas and gyms,
> >>> I didn't mention spas because they can all too easily cross over to,
> >>> at least, the "happy ending." (See the last or penultimate episode
> >>> of *Schitt's Creek*.)
> > (Patrick knows David is a mess and wants him away for the hours
> > before the wedding, so he gives him a spa day, telling them to give
> > him the full treatment. He doesn't realize what that implies and is
> > scandalized when David thanks him for the happy ending.)
> >> I have to ask, though, how much of this is reality, how much is just the
> >> fantasy of TV writers?
> > I know one person who has therapeutic massages, and he reports
> > that they do include the happy ending when he wants.
>
> If so, is that more than the general ambiguity of life? Even an
> accounting meeting can have a happy ending if the participants want to.

Uh, no. Masturbation is unlikely to occur at an accounting meeting.
(I don't think "accounting meeting" is the right term, but I don't know
just what you're thinking of.)

And a generous tip is forthcoming.

> >>>> but also in "massage therapy"
> >>>> outlets. "Therapy" might be a codeword to identify them. I don't know if
> >>>> it's protected, but there is a Fédération québécoise des
> >>>> massothérapeutes agréés (that's a lot of é) which tries to set some
> >>>> standards in a profession where the government doesn't.
> >>> There's something the Quebec government doesn't try to control??
> >> What's your problem suddenly? Nothing nearly as gross as in Texas,
> >> Florida etc. is going on here in terms of controlling people.
> > All I know about Quebec is what you tell us here. Oh, plus the draconian
> > language laws.
>
> And what of that do you find so objectionable?

Of what? "Language laws" should be obviously objectionable to anyone
in the language sciences. (The US, of course, has no official language.)

> > Texas and Florida are only interested in controlling people's sex lives
> > and ballot access.
>
> Exactly. Which no one needs, whereas regulating professions is a service
> to the community, if not overdone.
>
> They need a Trudeau, and I mean the older one.
> <https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1811727781>
>
> Ok, one truly gross thing that Quebec does is the regulation of
> "religious symbols", which clearly is aimed at Islam, affecting mostly
> women, and doesn't solve any actual problem. The local culture war to
> get votes based on emotions.

Or become an overseas province of France?

Re: Name changes

<bb928hl1cl16jb4m58mkoubfut9sudrcc7@4ax.com>

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 12:57:19 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Sun, 15 May 2022 16:57 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 08:44:59 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:49:41 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 07:04:45 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:08:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> >> https://www.usmarriagelaws.com/marriage-license/marriage-witnesses-requirements/
>> >Would be nice to see the 1960s version of that chart.
>>
>> Note the Indiana listing: "Witnesses are no longer required by
>> Indiana law" which indicates change. That is not noted in the
>> Illinois listing.
>
>I don't know the year of your wedding. It may have been under the
>new Illinois Constitution, the one that (first in the nation) decriminalized
>homosexual acts. If that's when such a change took place, it would be
>ancient history at the time the listings were compiled.

The Illinois Constitution has been revised three times, but the one
you are referring to was in 1970. Subtracting the number 58 (the
years I stated that we have been married) from 2022 indicates that we
were married in 1964. The previous revision was in 1870 and the one
before that was in 1848.

Illinois decriminalized homosexuality in January, 1962, though...eight
years before the Constitution was revised. The "sodomy laws" were
repealed in 1961, but the change took effect in January, 1962. The
repeal in Illinois is what is cited as the "first in the nation". It
was done by legislative repeal, not constitutional change.

As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Illinois Constitution
that covers who can get married, what is required on a wedding
certificate, or anything else about marriage. Or, anything about
homosexuality or sodomy.

I have no idea why you're bringing in the Illinois Constitution.
Requirements of and changes to the type of issues you are referring to
are covered by statutes and the passage of bills. The only
constitutional aspect is that Section 8 of the current Illinois
Constitution allows the General Assembly (the legislature) to enact
bills.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Which sentence is better?

<t5rjeg$pij$1@dont-email.me>

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From: news2012...@gmail.com (Anders D. Nygaard)
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Subject: Re: Which sentence is better?
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 by: Anders D. Nygaard - Sun, 15 May 2022 19:14 UTC

Den 07-05-2022 kl. 23:26 skrev Anders D. Nygaard:
> Den 06-05-2022 kl. 22:12 skrev Stefan Ram:
>> Bebercito <bebercito@aol.com> writes:
> >> [two contrasts that predate the five types of writing system(s)]
>>> The latter, as "writing system" can only be countable.
>>
>>    I hereby acknowledge that you wrote first that countability
>>    is what matters here!
>
> You (both) have me confused here - how does countability enter into it?
> All three of us are non-native speakers, and the (few) native speakers
> who have ventured an opinion seem to disagree as well - but AFAICS
> all without providing reasons.
>
> I'm looking forward to PTD disclosing what he chose, why, and why
> one might disagree.

Did I miss the promised post from PTD?

> (They differ only in the last letter.) I won't tell you (until later)
which
> one I wrote and which one a reader suggested.

/Anders, Denmark

Re: Which sentence is better?

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Subject: Re: Which sentence is better?
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sun, 15 May 2022 20:07 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 3:14:29 PM UTC-4, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> Den 07-05-2022 kl. 23:26 skrev Anders D. Nygaard:
> > Den 06-05-2022 kl. 22:12 skrev Stefan Ram:
> >> Bebercito <bebe...@aol.com> writes:

> > >> [two contrasts that predate the five types of writing system(s)]
> >>> The latter, as "writing system" can only be countable.
> >> I hereby acknowledge that you wrote first that countability
> >> is what matters here!
> > You (both) have me confused here - how does countability enter into it?
> > All three of us are non-native speakers, and the (few) native speakers
> > who have ventured an opinion seem to disagree as well - but AFAICS
> > all without providing reasons.
> > I'm looking forward to PTD disclosing what he chose, why, and why
> > one might disagree.
>
> Did I miss the promised post from PTD?

How good of you to remember what the thread is actually about!
The few comments that addressed the question were unhelpful
(and most were from nonnatives) and about evenly divided. My
version was the first of the two, and it's the version I kept.

Since you felt it appropriate to not repeat the initial query, but
only three rather strange comments, I'll leave it at that.

> > (They differ only in the last letter.) I won't tell you (until later)
> > which one I wrote and which one a reader suggested. \

Re: Name changes

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From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 23:35:55 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Lewis - Sun, 15 May 2022 23:35 UTC

In message <2sxwxi3nq19i$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> * Lewis:

>> In message <1dot7uxgezngo.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> * Lewis:
>>
>>>> In message <2qjyh5ie20kw$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>>> For more and more younger people, there isn't even a "default way" and
>>>>> "the exception" any more, but a range of possibilities what two people
>>>>> could do with their names if they marry.
>>
>>>> This is just not true. It is still the case that the vast majority of
>>>> women change their last names when they marry. Sometimes several times
>>>> if they go through several husbands. The ones who do not are more common
>>>> than they were, but are still a small percentage
>>
>>> I tried to find some numbers, first for Germany, to give substance to
>>
>> To be clear, though you know this, I am not talking about Germany.

> Well, if the US is far behind Germany or Canada in a cultural
> development, it can of course happen that my judgment of US affairs is
> going to be off.

Yes, because of course a difference in cultural norms is something you
consider to be "inferior" to your culture.

You are right, you "judgement" of the US is is off, so far off as to be
worthless every time you attempt to weigh in on the topic.

--
"The prize is the more I drink the blurrier you get"

Re: Name changes

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
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 by: Quinn C - Mon, 16 May 2022 00:18 UTC

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:58:39 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:14:06 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 3:07:49 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:47:05 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 13/05/22 23:06, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>>>>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
>>>>>>>>>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines
>>>>>>>>>>> whether it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
>>>>>>>>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to
>>>>>>>>>> imply "respectively"?
>>>>>>>>> BTW: In my notes, I have collected some phrases to designate such
>>>>>>>>> services.
>>>>>>>>> One type might be called: "legitimate massage parlor", "legit massage
>>>>>>>>> parlor", or "legitimate massage therapy center".
>>>>>>>>> The other type: "non-legit massage parlor".
>>>>>>>>> (My interest is, of course, also only purely academic.)
>>>>>>>> I recall a time when my interest was more than academic. I had some back
>>>>>>>> pain and really would have liked a massage. There were a number of
>>>>>>>> massage parlours in the area, but I couldn't work out which was which,
>>>>>>>> so I ended up having to live with the pain.
>>>>>>> Over Here, the legit kind is classed under Physical Therapy.
>>>>>> I just want to point out that, at least where I live, there is quite
>>>>>> some middle ground between college-trained physiotherapists on the one
>>>>>> hand and those who offer sexual services. You can find "legit"
>>>>>> massagists working in spas and gyms,
>>>>> I didn't mention spas because they can all too easily cross over to,
>>>>> at least, the "happy ending." (See the last or penultimate episode
>>>>> of *Schitt's Creek*.)
>>> (Patrick knows David is a mess and wants him away for the hours
>>> before the wedding, so he gives him a spa day, telling them to give
>>> him the full treatment. He doesn't realize what that implies and is
>>> scandalized when David thanks him for the happy ending.)
>>>> I have to ask, though, how much of this is reality, how much is just the
>>>> fantasy of TV writers?
>>> I know one person who has therapeutic massages, and he reports
>>> that they do include the happy ending when he wants.
>>
>> If so, is that more than the general ambiguity of life? Even an
>> accounting meeting can have a happy ending if the participants want to.
>
> Uh, no. Masturbation is unlikely to occur at an accounting meeting.

If that's specifically what "happy ending" means, then you know more
than I did. To me, it was just "some kind of sexual service".

> (I don't think "accounting meeting" is the right term, but I don't know
> just what you're thinking of.)

Some business meeting, and be it about an unsexy issue like accounting.
> And a generous tip is forthcoming.

That's a difference, of course.

I probably thought it works like what I'd heard about informal sex work
in Japan: you can meet girls in those tiny bars called snacks, typically
with room for only about 5 customers, and they offer companionship and
maybe some light touching, but nothing overtly sexual as long as you're
in there, because then the owner (typically, "mama-san") would have
fostered illegal prostitution. But, from the perspective of the owner,
"if they agree on meeting those customers after work, I have no
influence on that."
>>>>>> but also in "massage therapy"
>>>>>> outlets. "Therapy" might be a codeword to identify them. I don't know if
>>>>>> it's protected, but there is a Fédération québécoise des
>>>>>> massothérapeutes agréés (that's a lot of é) which tries to set some
>>>>>> standards in a profession where the government doesn't.
>>>>> There's something the Quebec government doesn't try to control??
>>>> What's your problem suddenly? Nothing nearly as gross as in Texas,
>>>> Florida etc. is going on here in terms of controlling people.
>>> All I know about Quebec is what you tell us here. Oh, plus the draconian
>>> language laws.
>>
>> And what of that do you find so objectionable?
>
> Of what? "Language laws" should be obviously objectionable to anyone
> in the language sciences. (The US, of course, has no official language.)

Ok, although I hope you understand the sociohistoric background. A lot
of it could and should be dropped at this point, but I do see that it
was reasonable to do something back in the 1970s.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Re: Name changes

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 11:39:32 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Mon, 16 May 2022 01:39 UTC

On 16/05/22 00:49, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 15 May 2022 07:04:45 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:08:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

>>> My wife was concerned that we didn't leave the church with a
>>> certificate of marriage. She was afraid we'd be refused by some
>>> hotel on our honeymoon trip because we couldn't prove we were
>>> married. We didn't get the certificate until some weeks later
>>> when she was in Rockford and went by the church.
>>
>> That seems HIGHLY irregular. The license certifies that you have
>> met the legal requirements for marriage within the next two years
>> or whatever (having demonstrated that it wasn't incestuous, that
>> [in those ays] you didn't have syphilis, etc.). The certificate --
>> WITH WITNESSES -- certifies that you actually went through with
>> it.
>
> Fortunately, no one challenged us and required proof. We drove from
> Rockford to Florida, stayed overnight in Kentucky, spent several
> nights in Hilton Head Island SC, several nights in Clearwater FL,
> and several nights in St Petersburg Beach FL. On the way back north,
> we spent one night in Georgia.

The only time I've ever needed proof of marriage, to the best of my
recollection, was when submitting divorce papers. Hotel and motel
managers don't care who I'm sleeping with, and they're not bothered by
the fact that my wife and I have different surnames.

On a couple of occasions I have shared a motel room with a much younger
woman. (My daughter and my niece, respectively.) That might have looked
fishy, but nobody blinked an eyelid.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: Name changes

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 23:25:09 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Mon, 16 May 2022 03:25 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 11:39:32 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 16/05/22 00:49, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 07:04:45 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:08:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>>>> My wife was concerned that we didn't leave the church with a
>>>> certificate of marriage. She was afraid we'd be refused by some
>>>> hotel on our honeymoon trip because we couldn't prove we were
>>>> married. We didn't get the certificate until some weeks later
>>>> when she was in Rockford and went by the church.
>>>
>>> That seems HIGHLY irregular. The license certifies that you have
>>> met the legal requirements for marriage within the next two years
>>> or whatever (having demonstrated that it wasn't incestuous, that
>>> [in those ays] you didn't have syphilis, etc.). The certificate --
>>> WITH WITNESSES -- certifies that you actually went through with
>>> it.
>>
>> Fortunately, no one challenged us and required proof. We drove from
>> Rockford to Florida, stayed overnight in Kentucky, spent several
>> nights in Hilton Head Island SC, several nights in Clearwater FL,
>> and several nights in St Petersburg Beach FL. On the way back north,
>> we spent one night in Georgia.
>
>The only time I've ever needed proof of marriage, to the best of my
>recollection, was when submitting divorce papers. Hotel and motel
>managers don't care who I'm sleeping with, and they're not bothered by
>the fact that my wife and I have different surnames.

You must remember that this was 1964 and my wife was a young, naive,
well-brought-up Catholic girl who actually thought we might be asked.

>
>On a couple of occasions I have shared a motel room with a much younger
>woman. (My daughter and my niece, respectively.) That might have looked
>fishy, but nobody blinked an eyelid.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: Which sentence is better?

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From: enom...@meer.net (Madhu)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Which sentence is better?
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 09:03:59 +0530
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 by: Madhu - Mon, 16 May 2022 03:33 UTC

* "Peter T. Daniels" <374a1c38-089a-4f0f-ba91-3e714b0f9b3en @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Sun, 15 May 2022 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT):
> How good of you to remember what the thread is actually about! The
> few comments that addressed the question were unhelpful (and most were
> from nonnatives) and about evenly divided. My version was the first of
> the two, and it's the version I kept.

As a another non-native speaker I'll add my disagreement on your choice.
I'd prefer to see the plural form of "writing-systems"

Re: Name changes

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: bruce2bo...@gmail.com (bruce bowser)
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 by: bruce bowser - Mon, 16 May 2022 07:44 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:39:40 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 16/05/22 00:49, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Sun, 15 May 2022 07:04:45 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:08:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> >>> My wife was concerned that we didn't leave the church with a
> >>> certificate of marriage. She was afraid we'd be refused by some
> >>> hotel on our honeymoon trip because we couldn't prove we were
> >>> married. We didn't get the certificate until some weeks later
> >>> when she was in Rockford and went by the church.
> >>
> >> That seems HIGHLY irregular. The license certifies that you have
> >> met the legal requirements for marriage within the next two years
> >> or whatever (having demonstrated that it wasn't incestuous, that
> >> [in those ays] you didn't have syphilis, etc.). The certificate --
> >> WITH WITNESSES -- certifies that you actually went through with
> >> it.
> >
> > Fortunately, no one challenged us and required proof. We drove from
> > Rockford to Florida, stayed overnight in Kentucky, spent several
> > nights in Hilton Head Island SC, several nights in Clearwater FL,
> > and several nights in St Petersburg Beach FL. On the way back north,
> > we spent one night in Georgia.
>
> The only time I've ever needed proof of marriage, to the best of my
> recollection, was when submitting divorce papers. Hotel and motel
> managers don't care who I'm sleeping with, and they're not bothered by
> the fact that my wife and I have different surnames.
>
> On a couple of occasions I have shared a motel room with a much younger
> woman. (My daughter and my niece, respectively.) That might have looked
> fishy, but nobody blinked an eyelid.

Well, who is going to discourage a $100 deal, because of gossip?

Re: Name changes

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 10:46:51 +0100
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 by: Adam Funk - Mon, 16 May 2022 09:46 UTC

On 2022-05-14, Quinn C wrote:

> * Adam Funk:
>
>> On 2022-05-13, Quinn C wrote:
>>
>>> * Adam Funk:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-05-13, CDB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/12/2022 5:45 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>
>>>>>> In German, sometimes the choice of Masseurin (regular German
>>>>>> feminine form) or Masseuse (imported from French) determines whether
>>>>>> it's a medical massage service or the other kind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Out of purely academic interest, which is which? Did you mean to imply
>>>>> "respectively"?
>>>>
>>>> I'd assume the more French one is the naughty kind.
>>>
>>> Yes, but it used to be the only one, and some may still use it
>>> indiscriminately. So it's not a case of importing a French word
>>> specifically for naughtiness.
>>
>> Well, that's disappointing. ;-)
>
> Mother: It's vital that we protect your purity during this vulnerable
> time. I mean, you're a divorcee, and, well, that sounds French.
> Summer: I know it does. <audible exhale>
>
> Girls5eva S02E04

Ha!

--
I heard that Hans Christian Andersen lifted the title for "The Little
Mermaid" off a Red Lobster Menu. ---Bucky Katt

Re: Name changes

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Mon, 16 May 2022 13:12 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:39:40 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:

> The only time I've ever needed proof of marriage, to the best of my
> recollection, was when submitting divorce papers. Hotel and motel
> managers don't care who I'm sleeping with, and they're not bothered by
> the fact that my wife and I have different surnames.

They useta. An awful lot of classic farces turn on that matter --
such as *It Happened One Night*.

I assume *Mr. and Mrs. Smith* (allegedly Hitchcock's only comedy)
turns on the same matter, but the one time it was scheduled and I
was ready to watch it, it got preempted.

Re: Which sentence is better?

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Subject: Re: Which sentence is better?
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Mon, 16 May 2022 13:13 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 11:33:56 PM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
> * "Peter T. Daniels" <374a1c38-089a-4f0f-ba91-3e714b0f9b3en @googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Sun, 15 May 2022 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT):

> > How good of you to remember what the thread is actually about! The
> > few comments that addressed the question were unhelpful (and most were
> > from nonnatives) and about evenly divided. My version was the first of
> > the two, and it's the version I kept.
>
> As a another non-native speaker I'll add my disagreement on your choice.
> I'd prefer to see the plural form of "writing-systems"

Do _you_ (unlike bebe...) have a valid reason?

Re: Which sentence is better?

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Subject: Re: Which sentence is better?
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 by: Bebercito - Mon, 16 May 2022 20:18 UTC

Le lundi 16 mai 2022 à 15:13:43 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 11:33:56 PM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
> > * "Peter T. Daniels" <374a1c38-089a-4f0f-ba91-3e714b0f9b3en @googlegroups.com> :
> > Wrote on Sun, 15 May 2022 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT):
>
> > > How good of you to remember what the thread is actually about! The
> > > few comments that addressed the question were unhelpful (and most were
> > > from nonnatives) and about evenly divided. My version was the first of
> > > the two, and it's the version I kept.
> >
> > As a another non-native speaker I'll add my disagreement on your choice..
> > I'd prefer to see the plural form of "writing-systems"
> Do _you_ (unlike bebe...) have a valid reason?
How is my reason not valid?

Re: Which sentence is better?

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Subject: Re: Which sentence is better?
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Mon, 16 May 2022 20:44 UTC

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 4:18:41 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le lundi 16 mai 2022 à 15:13:43 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 11:33:56 PM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
> > > * "Peter T. Daniels" <374a1c38-089a-4f0f-ba91-3e714b0f9b3en @googlegroups.com> :
> > > Wrote on Sun, 15 May 2022 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT):
> >
> > > > How good of you to remember what the thread is actually about! The
> > > > few comments that addressed the question were unhelpful (and most were
> > > > from nonnatives) and about evenly divided. My version was the first of
> > > > the two, and it's the version I kept.
> > > As a another non-native speaker I'll add my disagreement on your choice.
> > > I'd prefer to see the plural form of "writing-systems"
> > Do _you_ (unlike bebe...) have a valid reason?
>
> How is my reason not valid?

I'm not going back up to the top to look at it again, but since it made
no sense last week, it's not going to make any sense this week.

Re: Which sentence is better?

<435da06e-4cc1-443c-9971-99fb6f7c7f92n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Which sentence is better?
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Mon, 16 May 2022 20:48 UTC

Le lundi 16 mai 2022 à 22:44:53 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 4:18:41 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le lundi 16 mai 2022 à 15:13:43 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 11:33:56 PM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
> > > > * "Peter T. Daniels" <374a1c38-089a-4f0f-ba91-3e714b0f9b3en @googlegroups.com> :
> > > > Wrote on Sun, 15 May 2022 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT):
> > >
> > > > > How good of you to remember what the thread is actually about! The
> > > > > few comments that addressed the question were unhelpful (and most were
> > > > > from nonnatives) and about evenly divided. My version was the first of
> > > > > the two, and it's the version I kept.
> > > > As a another non-native speaker I'll add my disagreement on your choice.
> > > > I'd prefer to see the plural form of "writing-systems"
> > > Do _you_ (unlike bebe...) have a valid reason?
> >
> > How is my reason not valid?
> I'm not going back up to the top to look at it again, but since it made
> no sense last week, it's not going to make any sense this week.

So you don't know what my reason is, but you know it's not
valid? That figures...

Re: Name changes

<ek5clixnku.ln2@news.ducksburg.com>

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 10:14:22 +0100
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 by: Adam Funk - Tue, 17 May 2022 09:14 UTC

On 2022-05-13, Lewis wrote:

> In message <rck1lixbcn.ln2@news.ducksburg.com> Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-05-12, Lewis wrote:
>
>>> I would not be at all surprised if the rental car companies had a
>>> specific policy of trying not to rent cars to "women drivers" or
>
>> ...even though (as any insurance company knows) women are on average
>> better drivers than men.
>
> They may know that now. Did they in the 1970s? I doubt it.

It's hard to google up information about the history of it, but I'd be
surprised if they didn't know it. I'm sure they based premiums on age
then, & just comparing the statistics between men & women wouldn't
have required any modern "big data analytics" either.

--
Consistently separating words by spaces became a general custom about
the tenth century A. D., and lasted until about 1957, when FORTRAN
abandoned the practice. ---Sun FORTRAN Reference Manual

Re: Which sentence is better?

<d9801c52-9559-4930-95a6-b076e58ea53dn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Which sentence is better?
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 17 May 2022 14:19 UTC

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 4:48:37 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le lundi 16 mai 2022 à 22:44:53 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 4:18:41 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > Le lundi 16 mai 2022 à 15:13:43 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 11:33:56 PM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
> > > > > * "Peter T. Daniels" <374a1c38-089a-4f0f-ba91-3e714b0f9b3en @googlegroups.com> :
> > > > > Wrote on Sun, 15 May 2022 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT):

> > > > > > How good of you to remember what the thread is actually about! The
> > > > > > few comments that addressed the question were unhelpful (and most were
> > > > > > from nonnatives) and about evenly divided. My version was the first of
> > > > > > the two, and it's the version I kept.
> > > > > As a another non-native speaker I'll add my disagreement on your choice.
> > > > > I'd prefer to see the plural form of "writing-systems"
> > > > Do _you_ (unlike bebe...) have a valid reason?
> > > How is my reason not valid?
> > I'm not going back up to the top to look at it again, but since it made
> > no sense last week, it's not going to make any sense this week.
>
> So you don't know what my reason is, but you know it's not
> valid? That figures...

It's a pretty good guess that something that can't be described coherently
is not a valid conception.

Re: Name changes

<34d78h5ogsqak2862i26kct3hah249fdbo@4ax.com>

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From: rich.ulr...@comcast.net (Rich Ulrich)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 11:13:29 -0400
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 by: Rich Ulrich - Tue, 17 May 2022 15:13 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:14:22 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2022-05-13, Lewis wrote:
>
>> In message <rck1lixbcn.ln2@news.ducksburg.com> Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-12, Lewis wrote:
>>
>>>> I would not be at all surprised if the rental car companies had a
>>>> specific policy of trying not to rent cars to "women drivers" or
>>
>>> ...even though (as any insurance company knows) women are on average
>>> better drivers than men.
>>
>> They may know that now. Did they in the 1970s? I doubt it.
>
>It's hard to google up information about the history of it, but I'd be
>surprised if they didn't know it. I'm sure they based premiums on age
>then, & just comparing the statistics between men & women wouldn't
>have required any modern "big data analytics" either.

Women would have tended to have far fewer accidents per driver
in the 1970s because far fewer women had their own cars and
the default driver (in almost any family) was male.

Teenage boys, as a group, were already notable for excess
accidents, from police reports of accidents. IIRC, there was
also concern about the oldest drivers -- That led to such
things as legal requirements for tests of vision, or periodic
re-testing of driving skills. And cheaper insurance rates
for senior citizens who took a safe-driving course.

Teenage girls did not add much to the insurance rates.

I suspect it could be as late as the 1990s when computerized
files made it possible to dig out good figures that included
accidents per mile, by age and sex. It would have taken a
bit of work ... and confounding factors might have led to
closer specification of what information companies collect
from their drivers. I don't know what they ask, from multi-
driver families, that they use for setting rates.

"Data mining" came a decade later, when big files had been
amassed and disc space became cheap enough (and fast enough)
for online storage and processing. And much more random
statistical investigations. IIRC, I have seen accident rates
correlated with "how close the home is" from (a) a church
or (b) a liquor store.

--
Rich Ulrich

Re: Name changes

<20220517165919.848a739dfc6076f0f15c1964@127.0.0.1>

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Name changes
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 16:59:19 +0100
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Tue, 17 May 2022 15:59 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 11:13:29 -0400
Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:14:22 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 2022-05-13, Lewis wrote:
> >
> >> In message <rck1lixbcn.ln2@news.ducksburg.com> Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> >>> On 2022-05-12, Lewis wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I would not be at all surprised if the rental car companies had a
> >>>> specific policy of trying not to rent cars to "women drivers" or
> >>
> >>> ...even though (as any insurance company knows) women are on average
> >>> better drivers than men.
> >>
> >> They may know that now. Did they in the 1970s? I doubt it.
> >
> >It's hard to google up information about the history of it, but I'd be
> >surprised if they didn't know it. I'm sure they based premiums on age
> >then, & just comparing the statistics between men & women wouldn't
> >have required any modern "big data analytics" either.
>
> Women would have tended to have far fewer accidents per driver
> in the 1970s because far fewer women had their own cars and
> the default driver (in almost any family) was male.
>
> Teenage boys, as a group, were already notable for excess
> accidents, from police reports of accidents. IIRC, there was
> also concern about the oldest drivers -- That led to such
> things as legal requirements for tests of vision, or periodic
> re-testing of driving skills. And cheaper insurance rates
> for senior citizens who took a safe-driving course.
>
> Teenage girls did not add much to the insurance rates.
>
> I suspect it could be as late as the 1990s when computerized
> files made it possible to dig out good figures that included
> accidents per mile, by age and sex. It would have taken a
> bit of work ... and confounding factors might have led to
> closer specification of what information companies collect
> from their drivers. I don't know what they ask, from multi-
> driver families, that they use for setting rates.
>
> "Data mining" came a decade later, when big files had been
> amassed and disc space became cheap enough (and fast enough)
> for online storage and processing. And much more random
> statistical investigations. IIRC, I have seen accident rates
> correlated with "how close the home is" from (a) a church
> or (b) a liquor store.
>

I shall veer off here to post an amusing anecdote (well it was to me)
that really happened, 'cos I Was There.

Imagine a quiet fine summer's Sunday in Ireland. There we were cycling along,
enjoying life, on a straight empty road (straight roads are a bit rare in
Ireland, though, as they never invited the Romans to help out. The fine weather
is also a bit rare).

It's a nice rural scene, there's just the odd few cottages alternating, off to
either side.

We see a church on the left. We approach it, there's all (I assume) the locals
just coming out of the service and saying "see you later" or equivalent, and
getting in their cars to head off. Suddenly it's rushhour!

Luckily every man jack of them pulled off to the right at the next building
which, conveniently, was a Pub.
500m later to

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Which sentence is better?

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Subject: Re: Which sentence is better?
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Tue, 17 May 2022 16:25 UTC

Le mardi 17 mai 2022 à 16:19:50 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 4:48:37 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le lundi 16 mai 2022 à 22:44:53 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 4:18:41 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > > Le lundi 16 mai 2022 à 15:13:43 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > > On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 11:33:56 PM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
> > > > > > * "Peter T. Daniels" <374a1c38-089a-4f0f-ba91-3e714b0f9b3en @googlegroups.com> :
> > > > > > Wrote on Sun, 15 May 2022 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT):
>
> > > > > > > How good of you to remember what the thread is actually about! The
> > > > > > > few comments that addressed the question were unhelpful (and most were
> > > > > > > from nonnatives) and about evenly divided. My version was the first of
> > > > > > > the two, and it's the version I kept.
> > > > > > As a another non-native speaker I'll add my disagreement on your choice.
> > > > > > I'd prefer to see the plural form of "writing-systems"
> > > > > Do _you_ (unlike bebe...) have a valid reason?
> > > > How is my reason not valid?
> > > I'm not going back up to the top to look at it again, but since it made
> > > no sense last week, it's not going to make any sense this week.
> >
> > So you don't know what my reason is, but you know it's not
> > valid? That figures...
> It's a pretty good guess that something that can't be described coherently
> is not a valid conception.

That you can't describe it cohenrently is your problem.

Re: Name changes

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
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 by: Jerry Friedman - Tue, 17 May 2022 16:59 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:40:31 PM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:
> In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
....

> > As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".

> Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.

> > It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
> > the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.

> The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
> seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
> changes his name) after marriage.

My father was fond of "né" in talking about de-Judaized names. If someone
named Irwin Ormont was mentioned, Dad would say, "Né Goldberg." (I don't
know how he would have written it, maybe "née" or "nee". I'm disturbed that
I can't remember whether he pronounced it "nee" or "nay".)

--
Jerry Friedman

Re: Name changes

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: Name changes
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 by: Quinn C - Tue, 17 May 2022 18:04 UTC

* Jerry Friedman:

> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:40:31 PM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> ...
>
>>> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".
>
>> Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.
>
>>> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
>>> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
>
>> The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
>> seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
>> changes his name) after marriage.
>
> My father was fond of "né" in talking about de-Judaized names. If someone
> named Irwin Ormont was mentioned, Dad would say, "Né Goldberg." (I don't
> know how he would have written it, maybe "née" or "nee". I'm disturbed that
> I can't remember whether he pronounced it "nee" or "nay".)

Welcome back!

When you say "pronounce 'nee'", do you mean /ni/? Is that really an
option? I'm likely to pronounce it with a French accent (as /ne/ instead
of /neI/.)

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Re: Name changes

<da74c3e9-44aa-4b83-9496-eadd9e8ce18dn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Name changes
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
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 by: Jerry Friedman - Tue, 17 May 2022 20:53 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:04:15 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:40:31 PM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:
> >> In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan..org.invalid> wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >>> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".
> >
> >> Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.
> >
> >>> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
> >>> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
> >
> >> The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
> >> seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
> >> changes his name) after marriage.
> >
> > My father was fond of "né" in talking about de-Judaized names. If someone
> > named Irwin Ormont was mentioned, Dad would say, "Né Goldberg." (I don't
> > know how he would have written it, maybe "née" or "nee". I'm disturbed that
> > I can't remember whether he pronounced it "nee" or "nay".)

> Welcome back!

Thank you!

> When you say "pronounce 'nee'", do you mean /ni/? Is that really an
> option?

Yes. Dad never studied French, and liked to pronounce French words with
comically English sounds. And of course it's how we got the pronunciation
of "retiree", etc.

> I'm likely to pronounce it with a French accent (as /ne/ instead
> of /neI/.)

Well, monopthongal /e/ exists in your native language, unlike mine and my
father's.

--
Jerry Friedman

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