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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

SubjectAuthor
* An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
| +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencespains...@gmail.com
| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|    |   |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |     `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|     `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|      +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|      |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|      | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAdam Funk
|      | | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|      |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      |  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|      |  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat
|       | ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceLewis
|       | | ||  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | | |||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceGordonD
|       | | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJoy Beeson
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|       | | ||   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRichard Heathfield
|       | | ||   | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJanet
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMack A. Damia
|       | | |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|       | |   | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |  |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAnders D. Nygaard
|       | |   |  | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |  |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|       | |   |  |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |   |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |   |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   |    ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | |   |    || +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |    || `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMadhu
|       | |   |    |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |   |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|       | |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |    |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||| `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSilvano
|       | |    ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStoat
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | |    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat

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Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<712c61ad-ad22-42f4-8f33-fbd8423ad718n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Mon, 16 May 2022 20:42 UTC

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 12:02:32 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Provocative statements like yours as quoted above re-direct the
> "point" to some new "point". Quinn jumped on the new "point" with his
> posting and link showing that "We" do have, or have had, pervy
> underground toilets.

Except that THEY was wrong, since a below-ground toilet is not
equivalent to an English "subway" with attached toilets.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<ifg58h5015s3td5ntmti28jp4g0rqmnorp@4ax.com>

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 17:50:00 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Mon, 16 May 2022 21:50 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 13:40:55 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 12:02:32 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 08:09:02 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>> >> >> >>>>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 1:29:26 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
>
>> >> >> >>>> [BrE/AmE]
>> >> >> >>>>>>> There are certainly a lot of differences in transport-transportation:
>> >> >> >>>>>>> lorry-truck, pavement-sidewalk, give-way-yield, underground-subway,
>> >> >> >>>>>>> subway-?,
>> >> >> >>>>>> We don't have those weird underground pervy toilets.
>>
>> >I realize that you have zero memory ability, but the point was the
>> >absence of an AmE equivalent of the BrE "subway."
>>
>> You do realize that it was you who brought "pervy toilets" into the
>> thread?
>
>Doesn't that suggest that I knew what I was referring to when I
>repeated the phrase?

I suppose it does, but your familiarity with pervy toilets is not
something I would bring into the conversation. I'm surprised you
would.

But, the fact is that you did bring pervy toilets into the thread and
that makes it a "point" open to discussion. Threads progress to what
is brought up in threads.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<i9h58h14fo0elh2um7k34eah2i7bms2k6r@4ax.com>

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 17:51:04 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Mon, 16 May 2022 21:51 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 13:42:42 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 12:02:32 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> Provocative statements like yours as quoted above re-direct the
>> "point" to some new "point". Quinn jumped on the new "point" with his
>> posting and link showing that "We" do have, or have had, pervy
>> underground toilets.
>
>Except that THEY was wrong, since a below-ground toilet is not
>equivalent to an English "subway" with attached toilets.

Quinn is as entitled as you are to be wrong about something. Quinn's
is just wrong about fewer subjects and less likely to follow his
wrongness with bizarre defenses.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<1mog2d0gn2f99$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Quinn C - Mon, 16 May 2022 22:07 UTC

* Ken Blake:

> On Mon, 16 May 2022 11:45:17 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 16/05/22 02:53, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 17:28:34 +0100, charles
>>> <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> In article <of828h99kbr4tejqbopn56t8ebs8qkjtbg@4ax.com>,
>>
>>>>> You are correct. In AmE a "subway" is what BrE calls "tube" or
>>>>> "underground."
>>>>
>>>> Unless the "subway" is a sort of sandwich
>>>
>>> "Subway" is the name of a chain of sandwich shops, but I wouldn't
>>> call what they sell subways. Calling what Subways sells "subways" is
>>> like calling what McDonalds sells "McDonalds."
>>>
>>> Are you hungry? Would you rather have a McDonald or a Subway?
>>
>>I would phrase that last question as "Would you rather have a McDonald's
>>or a Subway".
>>
>>My youngest granddaughter calls the hamburger place "Old McDonald".
>
> When she goes to one, does she have a hamburger or a farm?

Why choose? In Germany, we had a (short-lived) fast food chain called
"Hamburger Farm".
--
- It's the title search for the Rachel property.
Guess who owns it?
- Tell me it's not that bastard Donald Trump.
-- Gilmore Girls, S02E08 (2001)

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t5ur6j$j69$1@dont-email.me>

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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 10:45:07 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Tue, 17 May 2022 00:45 UTC

On 17/05/22 06:00, Lewis wrote:
> In message <qrs48hduflorjj24djsb9vkq2qmf9td410@4ax.com> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 11:45:17 +1000, Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>>> My youngest granddaughter calls the hamburger place "Old McDonald".
>
>> When she goes to one, does she have a hamburger or a farm?
>
> E I E I O

Old MacDonald had an interface
EIA I/O.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Peter Moylan - Tue, 17 May 2022 00:46 UTC

On 16/05/22 23:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 12:27:38 AM UTC-4, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2022-05-15 19:56, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>>> Unfamiliar terminology can be a real trap for travellers.
>>>
>>> I was once having lunch somewhere in Califormia, and realised that I had
>>> forgotten how to get back to the SF Bay area, so I asked how to get
>>> there. Somebody said "Take the 5" (or it might have been a different
>>> number), and I didn't have a clue what they meant. Luckily I got a
>>> better answer when I rephrased my question as "Where can I find a
>>> freeway entrance?"
>>
>> 'The 5' is correct.
>
> It was not, however, a useful ("cooperative") answer to the question.

Despite the fact that I knew who Dave Brubeck was.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Peter Moylan - Tue, 17 May 2022 00:50 UTC

On 16/05/22 23:36, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> You may not have grasped, even from the discussion in this thread
> that you probably didn't read, that those subways are not_solely_
> accesses to toilets, but are pedestrian underpasses for street
> crossing. (Quite unsuited for the elderly, incidentally.) (Stairs, in
> case that was too difficult for you as well.)

Many such places here have a long ramp instead of, or as an alternative
to, stairs.

But they usually don't have toilets. Those are more likely to be at
ground level.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Peter Moylan - Tue, 17 May 2022 00:57 UTC

On 17/05/22 01:33, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>> Sat, 14 May 2022 13:52:31 -0600: lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca>
>>> scribeva:
>>>> Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of 'costly'
>>>> and 'expensive',
>
>> In article <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com>,
>> rh@rudhar.com says...
>>> But an unusual one, then.
>
> Mon, 16 May 2022 11:42:05 +0100: Janet <nobody@home.com> scribeva:
>> Not at all; it's in common everyday Br E usage.
>
> I now suddenly remember "if it's not too dear". The Beatles.
> Maxwell's Silver Hammer? No. When I'm sixty-four? Yes:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCTunqv1Xt4&t=1m33s

I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
friends Vera, Chook, and Dave, to be displayed at my 64th birthday
party. Unfortunately I didn't have a camera, and the next time I saw
them together it was too late.

Now it's much too late. Vera died last year, and I rarely see Chook.
Dave is still around.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 17 May 2022 05:32 UTC

Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:

>On 17/05/22 01:33, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>> Sat, 14 May 2022 13:52:31 -0600: lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca>
>>>> scribeva:
>>>>> Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of 'costly'
>>>>> and 'expensive',
>>
>>> In article <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com>,
>>> rh@rudhar.com says...
>>>> But an unusual one, then.
>>
>> Mon, 16 May 2022 11:42:05 +0100: Janet <nobody@home.com> scribeva:
>>> Not at all; it's in common everyday Br E usage.
>>
>> I now suddenly remember "if it's not too dear". The Beatles.
>> Maxwell's Silver Hammer? No. When I'm sixty-four? Yes:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCTunqv1Xt4&t=1m33s
>
>I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>friends Vera, Chook,

It's Chuck. That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the way, I
noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul McCartney)
employs a strange different accent (attempted Scottish, maybe?) just
before that.

>and Dave, to be displayed at my 64th birthday
>party. Unfortunately I didn't have a camera, and the next time I saw
>them together it was too late.
>
>Now it's much too late. Vera died last year, and I rarely see Chook.
>Dave is still around.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Snidely - Tue, 17 May 2022 05:46 UTC

On Saturday, Hibou queried:
> Le 12/05/2022 à 08:32, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>>
>> There are considerable variations even between British and American
>> English. Words relating to cars (boot/trunk ...) and babies (diaper/nappy
>> ...) are often different; words in other contexts are usually the same.
>
> There are certainly a lot of differences in transport-transportation:
> lorry-truck, pavement-sidewalk,

For us, a sidewalk is a subtype of pavement when referring to material,
but more often is the right-of-way for a pedestrian alongside a street,
normally paved. (Unfortunately, sidewalks are usually paved with
concrete since the 9 square inches supporting a 200 lb male is a severe
strain, whereas streets are usually paved with asphalt since the 36
square inches support a 2000 lb machine is not a severe strain).

> give-way-yield, underground-subway, subway-?,
> railway-station-train-station, points-switch,

An American railroad switch incorporates points, which are the moving
part that directs the wheels.

> engine-driver-engineer....

don't forget that our ditch diggers aren't navvies

> In
> other fields too: biscuit-cookie, post-mail,

> bill-check,

[see below]

> flat-apartment, torch-flashlight,
> coffin-casket,

[see below]

>crisps-chips,
> rubbish-garbage,

[see below]

> angry-mad....

[see below]
[this is the below: the marked examples are cases where the "BrE" is
not uncommon in AmE, generally treated as a synonym. It may be
regional (in the US/AmE dialectical sense) as to which term is more
common where.

Besides, you forgot that AmE also uses waste and trash for stuff that
gets thrown out and has a trip to the dump. There used to be a
technical difference between trash and garbage, and apparently Sam
Moriarty spent time as Mayor of LA mixing the streams as a progressive
thing. Now we're busy unmixing them.

> It doesn't stop with vocabulary, though. Formal English and formal American
> are often very close, barring the odd spelling difference; but in everyday
> speech it seems there's hardly a sentence that is the same in Eastpondia and
> Westpondia. Take verb use, for instance: I've eaten vs I ate already etc.. Or
> the question "How are you?", to which the answer is either an adverb ("Fine")
> or an adjective ("Good").

"Fine" is an adverb?

> Is a language a dialect with an army? I'm inclined to say it's the expression
> of, and the vehicle for, a culture, and Britain and America have quite
> different cultures.

Don't Yorkshire and Somerset have different cultures?

(Yorkhire is a place to find a Halifax bomber)

/dps

--
"This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
top of him?"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 07:10:24 +0100
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 by: Hibou - Tue, 17 May 2022 06:10 UTC

Le 16/05/2022 à 14:53, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 3:46:20 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 15/05/2022 à 15:14, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 1:29:26 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't stop with vocabulary, though. Formal English and formal
>>>> American are often very close, barring the odd spelling difference; but
>>>> in everyday speech it seems there's hardly a sentence that is the same
>>>> in Eastpondia and Westpondia. Take verb use, for instance: I've eaten vs
>>>> I ate already etc.. Or the question "How are you?", to which the answer
>>>> is either an adverb ("Fine") or an adjective ("Good").
>>>
>>> Your notions of American English are not based on experience with
>>> actual American English. Gangster movies, maybe?
>>
>> Not normally my genre. It's true it's a long time since I've set foot in
>> America, and so I am going by what you choose to export, in which I
>> imagine you have your best foot forward.
>>
>> Is your objection to the placement of the adverb?
>
> Both of your examples suggest that AmE does not admit the forms
> you label as "Eastpondian."

"Does not admit", no; I think they were usual in AmE, but have
largely been replaced.

> I must conclude that you've learned your
> AmE from British screenwriters who have assimilated a certain list
> of phrases that Brits consider to be Americanisms, and pepper the
> speech of their "American" characters with them -- perhaps to
> counter the fact that the majority of British actors who are called
> upon to portray American characters haven't the slightest idea
> how to pronounce American-English vowels. [...]

That's pure conjecture, and so tenuous and far fetched as to be highly
amusing.

All British people who do not hide themselves away in caves and cellars
are continuously exposed to American speech. Most of the films and
series on TV are American. British films, past and present, normally
include at least one American because otherwise they would not sell in
America. American experts are routinely interviewed on the radio (the
BBC sounds more and more like Voice of America). American reporters
appear in the news, American comedians in quiz shows, and so on and so
on. There are Americans living in Britain (~166,000 in 2021 (Statista) -
one of them in my immediate circle). We are saturated in American speech.

>> GNV tells me that, in
>> books at least (novels I suppose), "I already ate" is indeed commoner
>> than "I ate already".
>
> Certainly. "I ate already" has a feeling of Yiddishkeit.
>
> Which has nothing to do with the fact that there's nothing the
> least remarkable about "I've eaten." (Why would you add "already"
> in one but not the other? Can Brits not say "I've already eaten"?)

The perfect is used when the effects of a past event are still relevant
now. People do say "I've already eaten", but in this context the
'already' is superfluous. "I ate", on the other hand, is not anchored in
time and requires something extra to tie it to now.

>> My point was that Americans seem to have come to
>> disfavour the perfect (and so often need an adverb to recover its
>> nuances). For this example, GNV supports this, suggesting that "I
>> already ate" is quite recent (~1980) and overtook "I've eaten" in ~2000
>> (American corpus 2019, search terms "but I've eaten,but I've eaten
>> _NOUN_,but I already ate,but I already ate _NOUN_" - the _NOUN_ terms
>> are there for exclusion).
>
> You need far more context than that to determine when the "perfect"
> vs. the "simple past" is used.

Do you have an argument to support that assertion?

I invite you to run that search yourself and look at the curves. What do
you think they signify?

> Do you withdraw your claim about "fine" (what do you imagine makes
> that an "adverb"?) vs. "good"? [...]

No. I think it's an example of linguistic inflation. Britons aren't
immune to it, but I think Americans indulge in it more.

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Tue, 17 May 2022 06:23 UTC

On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:

> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>
>> [ … ]
>>
>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>> friends Vera, Chook,
>
> It's Chuck.

You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?

> That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
> Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the way, I
> noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul McCartney)
> employs a strange different accent (attempted Scottish, maybe?) just
> before that.
>
>> and Dave, to be displayed at my 64th birthday
>> party. Unfortunately I didn't have a camera, and the next time I saw
>> them together it was too late.
>>
>> Now it's much too late. Vera died last year, and I rarely see Chook.
>> Dave is still around.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

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From: h.i...@b.ou (Hibou)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 08:45:36 +0100
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 by: Hibou - Tue, 17 May 2022 07:45 UTC

Le 17/05/2022 à 06:46, Snidely a écrit :
> On Saturday, Hibou queried [...]
>
> For us, a sidewalk is a subtype of pavement when referring to material,
> but more often is the right-of-way for a pedestrian alongside a street,
> normally paved.  (Unfortunately, sidewalks are usually paved with
> concrete since the 9 square inches supporting a 200 lb male is a severe
> strain, whereas streets are usually paved with asphalt since the 36
> square inches support a 2000 lb machine is not a severe strain). [...]

There was a similar problem in a lab I once worked in, where the sign
indicating the maximum floor loading effectively prohibited standing on
one leg, and we had to shuffle everywhere. This was doubly bad, since
the carpet was synthetic, and shuffling gave us a strong static charge.

Thanks for the details you give. I'll skip forward, if you don't mind,
to the essential question, which is...

>> Is a language a dialect with an army? I'm inclined to say it's the
>> expression of, and the vehicle for, a culture, and Britain and America
>> have quite different cultures.
>
> Don't Yorkshire and Somerset have different cultures?

It's a question of degree, of course, and there will never be a
clear-cut answer. In the end, it's politics. Is Scots a language or a
dialect of English? Depends on your point of view and what you focus on.

I feel there are some large differences between the US and Britain.
Familiarity obscures this, plus the fact that we can more or less
understand each other without translators. Partly it is because America
is a young nation. The Wild West ended just over 100 years ago
(Wikipedia), and has I suppose left its legacy in the continued right to
bear arms, which seems very strange to us. Youth has its pluses
(vigour...) and its difficulties. In contrast, as an Englishman, I feel
part of a continuity going back almost 1,000 years, to the Norman
Invasion. Chaucer and Henry V don't seem foreign; Alfred the Great does.
It's true that our island remained politically divided till more
recently; the Union with Scotland dates back only 300 years.

It's not just youth. Australia is a young country, too, but I somehow
feel closer to the Australians. This may just be me. I like the way they
are willing to laugh at themselves, and, having read Shute's works,
perhaps some of his fondness for the place has rubbed off.

I could say more, but this is a minefield, and my tin trousers are away
for repairs.

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From: h.i...@b.ou (Hibou)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 08:50:12 +0100
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 by: Hibou - Tue, 17 May 2022 07:50 UTC

Le 17/05/2022 à 08:45, Hibou a écrit :
> Le 17/05/2022 à 06:46, Snidely a écrit :
>> On Saturday, Hibou queried [...]
>>>
>>> Is a language a dialect with an army? I'm inclined to say it's the
>>> expression of, and the vehicle for, a culture, and Britain and
>>> America have quite different cultures.
>>
>> Don't Yorkshire and Somerset have different cultures?
>
> It's a question of degree, of course, and there will never be a
> clear-cut answer. In the end, it's politics. Is Scots a language or a
> dialect of English? Depends on your point of view and what you focus on.

I forgot to add that it is common in French translations of American
works to see « Traduit de l'américain » instead of « Traduit de
l'anglais ». I adduce this as independent evidence of large differences
between AmE and BrE.

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From: Silv...@noncisonopernessuno.it (Silvano)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Silvano - Tue, 17 May 2022 09:57 UTC

Hibou hat am 17.05.2022 um 09:45 geschrieben:

> It's a question of degree, of course, and there will never be a
> clear-cut answer. In the end, it's politics. Is Scots a language or a
> dialect of English? Depends on your point of view and what you focus on.

Practical test.
If a Scots speaker talks to you as an Englishman, how much can't you
understand? It works the other way too, but we have to ask a Scots speaker.

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 by: Peter Moylan - Tue, 17 May 2022 10:00 UTC

On 17/05/22 17:45, Hibou wrote:

> I feel there are some large differences between the US and Britain.
> Familiarity obscures this, plus the fact that we can more or less
> understand each other without translators. Partly it is because
> America is a young nation. The Wild West ended just over 100 years
> ago (Wikipedia), and has I suppose left its legacy in the continued
> right to bear arms, which seems very strange to us.
[...]
> It's not just youth. Australia is a young country, too, but I somehow
> feel closer to the Australians. This may just be me. I like the way
> they are willing to laugh at themselves, and, having read Shute's
> works, perhaps some of his fondness for the place has rubbed off.

Australia and England are not separated by a common language, to the
extent that the USA and England are, but the lack of a common climate
causes more differences than you might imagine. We Australians do insist
on our right to bare arms.

I deliberately wrote England rather than the UK above. Migration from
Britain was highly uneven. Up until about 1950, the Australian
population was predominantly of Irish and Scottish descent, although the
upper classes had more of an English flavour. The mix has since been
diluted, both in North America and Australia, by migration from a far
greater range of countries.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

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 by: Peter Moylan - Tue, 17 May 2022 10:03 UTC

On 17/05/22 15:32, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:

>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of
>> my friends Vera, Chook,
>
> It's Chuck. That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
> Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the way,
> I noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul McCartney)
> employs a strange different accent (attempted Scottish, maybe?) just
> before that.

It might have been Chuck in Liverpool, but the person I know is called
Chook. He got his nickname from his surname, Fowler.

>> and Dave, to be displayed at my 64th birthday party. Unfortunately
>> I didn't have a camera, and the next time I saw them together it
>> was too late.
>>
>> Now it's much too late. Vera died last year, and I rarely see
>> Chook. Dave is still around.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Hibou - Tue, 17 May 2022 10:23 UTC

Le 17/05/2022 à 10:57, Silvano a écrit :
> Hibou hat am 17.05.2022 um 09:45 geschrieben:
>>
>> It's a question of degree, of course, and there will never be a
>> clear-cut answer. In the end, it's politics. Is Scots a language or a
>> dialect of English? Depends on your point of view and what you focus on.
>
> Practical test.
> If a Scots speaker talks to you as an Englishman, how much can't you
> understand? It works the other way too, but we have to ask a Scots speaker.

I'm afraid you'll need to find another subject for your test. Though
English, I have lived in Scotland almost all my adult life. The
chouette¹ Mme Hibou is Scottish, and I think we understand each other
quite well.

¹Double meaning there for those who like that sort of thing.

Everyday Scots (I don't mean the language of Burns etc.) is less opaque
than some English dialects can be (broad Yorkshire, Geordie...), but
no-one would say the latter were separate languages. In fact, there
aren't many peculiarly Scottish words in widespread use (haar, oxter,
dreich, nithered, wheesht, thole... - it depends on register); IMHO the
main barrier is pronunciation.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: h.i...@b.ou (Hibou)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 11:33:31 +0100
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 by: Hibou - Tue, 17 May 2022 10:33 UTC

Le 17/05/2022 à 11:23, Hibou a écrit :
>
> haar,

A North Sea mist.

> oxter,

Armpit.

> dreich,

Grey weather, mizzly drizzly etc..

> nithered,

Chilled.

> wheesht,
Quiet! [Hold your] wheesht!

> [to] thole...

To put up with, tolerate.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 11:42:13 +0100
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 by: Adam Funk - Tue, 17 May 2022 10:42 UTC

On 2022-05-17, Hibou wrote:

> Le 17/05/2022 à 10:57, Silvano a écrit :
>> Hibou hat am 17.05.2022 um 09:45 geschrieben:
>>>
>>> It's a question of degree, of course, and there will never be a
>>> clear-cut answer. In the end, it's politics. Is Scots a language or a
>>> dialect of English? Depends on your point of view and what you focus on.
>>
>> Practical test.
>> If a Scots speaker talks to you as an Englishman, how much can't you
>> understand? It works the other way too, but we have to ask a Scots speaker.
>
> I'm afraid you'll need to find another subject for your test. Though
> English, I have lived in Scotland almost all my adult life. The
> chouette¹ Mme Hibou is Scottish, and I think we understand each other
> quite well.
>
> ¹Double meaning there for those who like that sort of thing.
>
> Everyday Scots (I don't mean the language of Burns etc.) is less opaque
> than some English dialects can be (broad Yorkshire, Geordie...), but
> no-one would say the latter were separate languages. In fact, there
> aren't many peculiarly Scottish words in widespread use (haar, oxter,
> dreich, nithered, wheesht, thole... - it depends on register); IMHO the
> main barrier is pronunciation.

"Oxter" is used in Yorkshire & Derbyshire (at least) as well.

--
When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him
whose? ---Don Marquis

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 21:07:40 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Tue, 17 May 2022 11:07 UTC

On 17/05/22 16:10, Hibou wrote:
> Le 16/05/2022 à 14:53, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 3:46:20 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:

>>> GNV tells me that, in books at least (novels I suppose), "I
>>> already ate" is indeed commoner than "I ate already".
>>
>> Certainly. "I ate already" has a feeling of Yiddishkeit.
>>
>> Which has nothing to do with the fact that there's nothing the
>> least remarkable about "I've eaten." (Why would you add "already"
>> in one but not the other? Can Brits not say "I've already eaten"?)
>
> The perfect is used when the effects of a past event are still
> relevant now. People do say "I've already eaten", but in this context
> the 'already' is superfluous. "I ate", on the other hand, is not
> anchored in time and requires something extra to tie it to now.

My first exposure to "I already ate" was in the early 1970s. It stuck
out like a dog's balls because an Australian would never say that. (For
us, the word "already" automatically triggers a perfect tense.) The
speaker was a colleague who, IIRC, grew up in Massachussetts, studied
engineering at MIT, then did his PhD at Stanford. Maybe I misremember
the details, but I do know that he had lived on both USA coasts. (But
probably not in the interior.)

Since then, I have had plenty of opportunity to observe that the present
perfect is used far less in AmE than in BrE or AusE. So much less, I
believe, that it's in danger of disappearing from the AmE language.

One factor that has made this noticeable to me is that the exact
opposite is happening in French, where the simple past has been almost
completely replaced by the "passé composé", a tense that is
syntactically identical to the present perfect.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: Silv...@noncisonopernessuno.it (Silvano)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 14:25:52 +0200
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 by: Silvano - Tue, 17 May 2022 12:25 UTC

Peter Moylan hat am 17.05.2022 um 13:07 geschrieben:
> One factor that has made this noticeable to me is that the exact
> opposite is happening in French, where the simple past has been almost
> completely replaced by the "passé composé", a tense that is
> syntactically identical to the present perfect.

_Is_ happening? When I had my first contact with French, well over 50
years ago, this process had already been completed. AFAIK, you'll find
the simple past in French only in history books, but never in the spoken
language.

Also, well over ten years ago, a French channel was available on Berlin
cable TV and in one of their games the contestants were asked to say in
10 seconds e.g. the 2° person plural form of the simple past of "boire"
or another irregular verb. There were some correct answers. :-)

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 23:15:53 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Tue, 17 May 2022 13:15 UTC

On 17/05/22 22:25, Silvano wrote:
> Peter Moylan hat am 17.05.2022 um 13:07 geschrieben:

>> One factor that has made this noticeable to me is that the exact
>> opposite is happening in French, where the simple past has been
>> almost completely replaced by the "passé composé", a tense that is
>> syntactically identical to the present perfect.
>
> _Is_ happening? When I had my first contact with French, well over
> 50 years ago, this process had already been completed. AFAIK, you'll
> find the simple past in French only in history books, but never in
> the spoken language.

Never? I'll accept "almost never", but I've met some exceptions. A
sentence that springs to mind is "Ce fut un grand succès", which was
said in my hearing in the mid-1980s. But then the verb "to be" is an
exception to general trends in a number of languages.

The passé simple does persist in the writing of some authors, and that
helps to keep it in people's passive vocabulary.

> Also, well over ten years ago, a French channel was available on
> Berlin cable TV and in one of their games the contestants were asked
> to say in 10 seconds e.g. the 2° person plural form of the simple
> past of "boire" or another irregular verb. There were some correct
> answers. :-)

That's a slightly artificial situation. I might fail in that sort of
stressful situation, in English as well as French, but when it comes to
using the verb in a sentence it seems to pop out naturally. It's the
difference between normal speech and having to duplicate those
conjugation tables that are part of school lessons but not of normal life.

That's because, once one gets beyond the "raw beginner" stage, one
learns a language by phrases rather than by words, and certainly not by
tables.

In case that last sentence is a bit cryptic, here's an example. If you
asked me, without warning, the meaning of the German word "betreten", I
would probably be stumped. (My command of German is close to zero.) If
instead you asked me to translate "wir betreten feuertrunken", I would
get it right immediately.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Quinn C - Tue, 17 May 2022 13:21 UTC

* Hibou:

> Le 16/05/2022 à 14:53, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :

>> I must conclude that you've learned your
>> AmE from British screenwriters who have assimilated a certain list
>> of phrases that Brits consider to be Americanisms, and pepper the
>> speech of their "American" characters with them -- perhaps to
>> counter the fact that the majority of British actors who are called
>> upon to portray American characters haven't the slightest idea
>> how to pronounce American-English vowels. [...]
>
> That's pure conjecture, and so tenuous and far fetched as to be highly
> amusing.
>
> All British people who do not hide themselves away in caves and cellars
> are continuously exposed to American speech. Most of the films and
> series on TV are American. British films, past and present, normally
> include at least one American because otherwise they would not sell in
> America. American experts are routinely interviewed on the radio (the
> BBC sounds more and more like Voice of America). American reporters
> appear in the news, American comedians in quiz shows, and so on and so
> on. There are Americans living in Britain (~166,000 in 2021 (Statista) -
> one of them in my immediate circle). We are saturated in American speech.

There's certainly some exaggeration there, but "know how they sound" is
very different from "know how to pronounce", as any language learner
should know. Few people make a good job emulating a different accent
without the help of a teacher.

--
I hate the space-time continuum!
-- Dreamer, Supergirl S06E18

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 13:50:24 UTC
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 09:50:34 -0400
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 by: Quinn C - Tue, 17 May 2022 13:50 UTC

* Peter Moylan:

> In case that last sentence is a bit cryptic, here's an example. If you
> asked me, without warning, the meaning of the German word "betreten", I
> would probably be stumped. (My command of German is close to zero.) If
> instead you asked me to translate "wir betreten feuertrunken", I would
> get it right immediately.

That's a bit of a cheat, too, given there's approximately one instance
of "feuertrunken" in the whole corpus of written German.

--
Jib the boom! Poop the deck!
Rattle the hatch! Main the sail! Pepper the mints!
Anchors aweigh in the morn!
-- Muppet Show sea shanty (Ep.220)

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