Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Write a wise saying and your name will live forever. -- Anonymous


interests / alt.usage.english / Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

SubjectAuthor
* An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
| +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencespains...@gmail.com
| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|    |   |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |     `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|     `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|      +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|      |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|      | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAdam Funk
|      | | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|      |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      |  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|      |  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat
|       | ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceLewis
|       | | ||  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | | |||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceGordonD
|       | | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJoy Beeson
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|       | | ||   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRichard Heathfield
|       | | ||   | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJanet
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMack A. Damia
|       | | |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|       | |   | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |  |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAnders D. Nygaard
|       | |   |  | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |  |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|       | |   |  |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |   |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |   |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   |    ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | |   |    || +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |    || `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMadhu
|       | |   |    |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |   |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|       | |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |    |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||| `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSilvano
|       | |    ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStoat
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | |    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat

Pages:12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728
Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<57d91418-6a2f-4394-8228-414b43a30a62n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131334&group=alt.usage.english#131334

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5785:0:b0:2f3:b3fd:9667 with SMTP id v5-20020ac85785000000b002f3b3fd9667mr20075850qta.382.1652800212128;
Tue, 17 May 2022 08:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:258:0:b0:64d:6b57:bf25 with SMTP id
85-20020a250258000000b0064d6b57bf25mr15176795ybc.193.1652800211991; Tue, 17
May 2022 08:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!rocksolid2!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 08:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t5urgf$l8i$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=100.8.211.134; posting-account=tXYReAoAAABbl0njRzivyU02EBLaX9OF
NNTP-Posting-Host: 100.8.211.134
References: <t5g7kh$rje$1@dont-email.me> <mn.5c527e65b71faa84.127094@snitoo>
<je3rh8Fn132U1@mid.individual.net> <t5q33b$15dc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<b43310dc-50ae-48ab-a3e0-9849fabb1cd9n@googlegroups.com> <rj2cuj6if0md.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
<9e8917b3-a7c5-49b8-ad6d-23c1d3be9302n@googlegroups.com> <1kykrlsiqi1ie$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
<8184b74f-f61d-40f3-b8d4-4ac9aef099e6n@googlegroups.com> <13wzojngtzibe$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
<sl938hdlgk9k9uosiiohcp8th3d68ralln@4ax.com> <9b164bdc-4f9a-4312-8502-62e75a35f750n@googlegroups.com>
<t5urgf$l8i$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <57d91418-6a2f-4394-8228-414b43a30a62n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:10:12 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 3741
 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 17 May 2022 15:10 UTC

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 8:50:27 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 16/05/22 23:36, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > You may not have grasped, even from the discussion in this thread
> > that you probably didn't read, that those subways are not_solely_
> > accesses to toilets, but are pedestrian underpasses for street
> > crossing. (Quite unsuited for the elderly, incidentally.) (Stairs, in
> > case that was too difficult for you as well.)
>
> Many such places here have a long ramp instead of, or as an alternative
> to, stairs.
>
> But they usually don't have toilets. Those are more likely to be at
> ground level.

In _your_ cities? The context was that AmE doesn't have a word equivalent
to BrE "subway" because we don't have the institution.

We have the occasional pedestrian _overpass_ where a highway
transects a park. Where a depressed highway cuts through a
neighborhood (the Cross-Bronx Expressway being the best known
example), bridges are built for many of the streets that are cut
(the roadway continues at the same level). Or, only main streets
cross the highway -- for instance, the Long Island Expressway
cutting through the Borough of Queens, but mostly at street level;

or the Dan Ryan Expressway in Chicago, which was sent straight
through the black South Side without concern for destroyed
neighborhoods. The difference between the L.I.E. is that provision
was made in the medians of the Chicago expressways for "L"
trains and stations (and the "L" to O'Hare Airport is in the median
of the very expressway you can get tied up in airport traffic on).

The hated Robert Moses was in charge of creating the L.I.E. He
loved cars and hated both poor people (for whom he had to build
thousands of units of segregated public housing to replace slum
tenements) and public transit. He made sure that buses could not
use the parkways leading to the oceanside parks he created on
the South Shore (the oceanfront) of Long Island, by making the
overpasses carrying local traffic across the parkways too low
for bus clearance.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<rse78htbrqs76cqlbioc7f202bvvsjgpt4@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131338&group=alt.usage.english#131338

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!lilly.ping.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 11:18:22 -0400
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <rse78htbrqs76cqlbioc7f202bvvsjgpt4@4ax.com>
References: <rj2cuj6if0md.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> <9e8917b3-a7c5-49b8-ad6d-23c1d3be9302n@googlegroups.com> <1kykrlsiqi1ie$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> <8184b74f-f61d-40f3-b8d4-4ac9aef099e6n@googlegroups.com> <13wzojngtzibe$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> <sl938hdlgk9k9uosiiohcp8th3d68ralln@4ax.com> <9b164bdc-4f9a-4312-8502-62e75a35f750n@googlegroups.com> <t5urgf$l8i$1@dont-email.me> <57d91418-6a2f-4394-8228-414b43a30a62n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net t+UjY+TSVyJOhsguD0AmGAc2RnndHoCAvX9l3y9hOoHDNvdePH
Cancel-Lock: sha1:poUgEPx5AwPdCDHmNn8C7qr+/Rg=
User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.00.32.1200
 by: Tony Cooper - Tue, 17 May 2022 15:18 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 08:10:11 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 8:50:27 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 16/05/22 23:36, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> > You may not have grasped, even from the discussion in this thread
>> > that you probably didn't read, that those subways are not_solely_
>> > accesses to toilets, but are pedestrian underpasses for street
>> > crossing. (Quite unsuited for the elderly, incidentally.) (Stairs, in
>> > case that was too difficult for you as well.)
>>
>> Many such places here have a long ramp instead of, or as an alternative
>> to, stairs.
>>
>> But they usually don't have toilets. Those are more likely to be at
>> ground level.
>
>In _your_ cities? The context was that AmE doesn't have a word equivalent
>to BrE "subway" because we don't have the institution.
>
>We have the occasional pedestrian _overpass_ where a highway
>transects a park.

If your "We" includes the rest of the US for a change, we have both
pedestrian overpasses and pedestrian underpasses.

There is one of each within a few miles of where I live.

The overpass is over I-4, but not near any park. The underpass is
under a busy street, but not near a park.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<abf6d888-c0f7-464c-a307-01e55c61f070n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131343&group=alt.usage.english#131343

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:588:b0:2f3:bca9:ea34 with SMTP id c8-20020a05622a058800b002f3bca9ea34mr20582652qtb.601.1652802032339;
Tue, 17 May 2022 08:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:8e83:0:b0:64b:772c:586b with SMTP id
q3-20020a258e83000000b0064b772c586bmr22544323ybl.579.1652802032089; Tue, 17
May 2022 08:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 08:40:31 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t5ve8g$11d4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=100.8.211.134; posting-account=tXYReAoAAABbl0njRzivyU02EBLaX9OF
NNTP-Posting-Host: 100.8.211.134
References: <0c47be90-5c9c-4fd1-884e-ac7a3edcb2e3n@googlegroups.com>
<4c01fefc-de7f-4031-a550-251a37425177n@googlegroups.com> <ed095e27-d963-4af9-a08f-6970b9137793n@googlegroups.com>
<b83d050c-046d-48c7-9ff5-23414691ba62n@googlegroups.com> <c81698c1-6ff8-4d99-919e-30231c3af695n@googlegroups.com>
<t5g7kh$rje$1@dont-email.me> <mn.5c527e65b71faa84.127094@snitoo>
<je3rh8Fn132U1@mid.individual.net> <t5q33b$15dc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<b43310dc-50ae-48ab-a3e0-9849fabb1cd9n@googlegroups.com> <t5svg5$17cq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<f4398f85-7b81-4b23-a235-8b97cffa869bn@googlegroups.com> <t5ve8g$11d4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <abf6d888-c0f7-464c-a307-01e55c61f070n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:40:32 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 17 May 2022 15:40 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:10:28 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 16/05/2022 à 14:53, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 3:46:20 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> >> Le 15/05/2022 à 15:14, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 1:29:26 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:

> >>>> It doesn't stop with vocabulary, though. Formal English and formal
> >>>> American are often very close, barring the odd spelling difference; but
> >>>> in everyday speech it seems there's hardly a sentence that is the same
> >>>> in Eastpondia and Westpondia. Take verb use, for instance: I've eaten vs
> >>>> I ate already etc.. Or the question "How are you?", to which the answer
> >>>> is either an adverb ("Fine") or an adjective ("Good").
> >>> Your notions of American English are not based on experience with
> >>> actual American English. Gangster movies, maybe?
> >> Not normally my genre. It's true it's a long time since I've set foot in
> >> America, and so I am going by what you choose to export, in which I
> >> imagine you have your best foot forward.
> >> Is your objection to the placement of the adverb?
> > Both of your examples suggest that AmE does not admit the forms
> > you label as "Eastpondian."
>
> "Does not admit", no; I think they were usual in AmE, but have
> largely been replaced.

Where do you _get_ this stuff?

What you failed to recognize with your list of alternative vocabulary
is that in fields where the technology (for instance) developed _after_
the divide between the languages, such as automobiles, the two
speech communities naturally came up with different terminology
for the same things. But anything that was part of the "word-hoard"
by the 18th century is part of the common linguistic heritage, and
American English -- being the "peripheral" variety -- is more likely to
_retain_ older forms and British English is more likely to _innovate_.
The reconstructions of "authentic Shakespeare pronunciation" due
to David Crystal and his actor son are perceived by audiences to
be more like modern _American_ varieties than like modern British
varieties.

> > I must conclude that you've learned your
> > AmE from British screenwriters who have assimilated a certain list
> > of phrases that Brits consider to be Americanisms, and pepper the
> > speech of their "American" characters with them -- perhaps to
> > counter the fact that the majority of British actors who are called
> > upon to portray American characters haven't the slightest idea
> > how to pronounce American-English vowels. [...]
>
> That's pure conjecture, and so tenuous and far fetched as to be highly
> amusing.

I do not find it "amusing" that characters who are supposed to be
"American" -- in both comedies and dramas -- do not speak with
anything like any sort of extant American accent or vocabulary.

One such mistake is particularly galling. Brits say "go through"
when referring to entering a building or a room, Americans say
"go in." Apparently no screenwriter has ever noticed this difference.

> All British people who do not hide themselves away in caves and cellars
> are continuously exposed to American speech. Most of the films and
> series on TV are American. British films, past and present, normally
> include at least one American because otherwise they would not sell in
> America. American experts are routinely interviewed on the radio (the
> BBC sounds more and more like Voice of America). American reporters
> appear in the news, American comedians in quiz shows, and so on and so
> on. There are Americans living in Britain (~166,000 in 2021 (Statista) -
> one of them in my immediate circle). We are saturated in American speech.

Here's an example where I might cite Dick Van Dyke favorably.

What you-lot love to complain about regarding "Bert"''s accent -- which was
a one-off -- is what _we_ are faced with nearly every day when supposedly
"American" characters are portrayed on TV shows that do not have the
budget to import American actors for a few minutes' appearance on
one episode of a series.

No matter how many Americans you are exposed to, you do not
learn to talk like them, except with a handful of distinctive vocabulary
items (sometimes misused) and exaggerated r's.

> >> GNV tells me that, in
> >> books at least (novels I suppose), "I already ate" is indeed commoner
> >> than "I ate already".
> > Certainly. "I ate already" has a feeling of Yiddishkeit.
> > Which has nothing to do with the fact that there's nothing the
> > least remarkable about "I've eaten." (Why would you add "already"
> > in one but not the other? Can Brits not say "I've already eaten"?)
>
> The perfect is used when the effects of a past event are still relevant
> now. People do say "I've already eaten", but in this context the

In _what_ context? Not the slightest hint of a context was offered,
other than "in books at least."

> 'already' is superfluous. "I ate", on the other hand, is not anchored in
> time and requires something extra to tie it to now.

As I said, when the "perfect" is used depends on context, and singling
out those two perfectly common expressions as some sort of difference
is asinine.

> >> My point was that Americans seem to have come to
> >> disfavour the perfect (and so often need an adverb to recover its
> >> nuances). For this example, GNV supports this, suggesting that "I
> >> already ate" is quite recent (~1980) and overtook "I've eaten" in ~2000
> >> (American corpus 2019, search terms "but I've eaten,but I've eaten
> >> _NOUN_,but I already ate,but I already ate _NOUN_" - the _NOUN_ terms
> >> are there for exclusion).
> > You need far more context than that to determine when the "perfect"
> > vs. the "simple past" is used.
>
> Do you have an argument to support that assertion?

I suggest you consult the 1000-page digests of English grammar
published by Oxford University Press and Cambridge University
Press. (They compete, but they complement each other.) The use
of tense, mood, and aspect in English is hugely difficult to untangle
and I am not aware of any definitive treatment.
> I invite you to run that search yourself and look at the curves. What do
> you think they signify?

Hunh?

What kind of "search" can assess an entire discourse?

> > Do you withdraw your claim about "fine" (what do you imagine makes
> > that an "adverb"?) vs. "good"? [...]
>
> No. I think it's an example of linguistic inflation. Britons aren't
> immune to it, but I think Americans indulge in it more.

I have no idea what this particular bit of bigotry is supposed to mean.

But evidently you have no idea of the meaning of "adverb" (which
as it's used in English school grammar is meaningless anyway).

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<8ec7d2bb-84f6-440c-865e-91b4d2342b87n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131346&group=alt.usage.english#131346

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:2903:b0:6a0:4d8f:8b88 with SMTP id m3-20020a05620a290300b006a04d8f8b88mr16487680qkp.328.1652802176324;
Tue, 17 May 2022 08:42:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:1cc3:0:b0:64d:851a:597b with SMTP id
c186-20020a251cc3000000b0064d851a597bmr13086491ybc.624.1652802176134; Tue, 17
May 2022 08:42:56 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 08:42:55 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <jegtaqF7ngeU1@mid.individual.net>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=100.8.211.134; posting-account=tXYReAoAAABbl0njRzivyU02EBLaX9OF
NNTP-Posting-Host: 100.8.211.134
References: <0c47be90-5c9c-4fd1-884e-ac7a3edcb2e3n@googlegroups.com>
<bfd6082c-eea4-4490-b177-4fe6db591822n@googlegroups.com> <t5mjd6$3si$1@dont-email.me>
<884a0ef7-6fa7-420c-93fc-faad0346f83an@googlegroups.com> <1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>
<8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com>
<t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com>
<MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com>
<t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <jegtaqF7ngeU1@mid.individual.net>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <8ec7d2bb-84f6-440c-865e-91b4d2342b87n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:42:56 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 17 May 2022 15:42 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:23:28 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
> > Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
> > <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
> >> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
> >> friends Vera, Chook,
> > It's Chuck.
>
> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?

You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original that PM
was comparing his list of friend's names to?

> > That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
> > Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the way, I
> > noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul McCartney)
> > employs a strange different accent (attempted Scottish, maybe?) just
> > before that.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<0ea407b7-efac-4697-b5a4-851f19c236aan@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131348&group=alt.usage.english#131348

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:a37:bc8:0:b0:69f:a898:cefb with SMTP id 191-20020a370bc8000000b0069fa898cefbmr16187572qkl.525.1652802462758;
Tue, 17 May 2022 08:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a81:6dd7:0:b0:2fe:e0a9:95c7 with SMTP id
i206-20020a816dd7000000b002fee0a995c7mr14841493ywc.516.1652802462543; Tue, 17
May 2022 08:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 08:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t5vjr0$1abd$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=100.8.211.134; posting-account=tXYReAoAAABbl0njRzivyU02EBLaX9OF
NNTP-Posting-Host: 100.8.211.134
References: <0c47be90-5c9c-4fd1-884e-ac7a3edcb2e3n@googlegroups.com>
<4c01fefc-de7f-4031-a550-251a37425177n@googlegroups.com> <ed095e27-d963-4af9-a08f-6970b9137793n@googlegroups.com>
<b83d050c-046d-48c7-9ff5-23414691ba62n@googlegroups.com> <c81698c1-6ff8-4d99-919e-30231c3af695n@googlegroups.com>
<t5g7kh$rje$1@dont-email.me> <mn.5c527e65b71faa84.127094@snitoo>
<je3rh8Fn132U1@mid.individual.net> <t5q33b$15dc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<mn.85567e65635f104c.127094@snitoo> <t5vjr0$1abd$1@gioia.aioe.org>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <0ea407b7-efac-4697-b5a4-851f19c236aan@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:47:42 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 17 May 2022 15:47 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:45:41 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 17/05/2022 à 06:46, Snidely a écrit :
> > On Saturday, Hibou queried [...]
> >
> > For us, a sidewalk is a subtype of pavement when referring to material,
> > but more often is the right-of-way for a pedestrian alongside a street,
> > normally paved. (Unfortunately, sidewalks are usually paved with
> > concrete since the 9 square inches supporting a 200 lb male is a severe
> > strain, whereas streets are usually paved with asphalt since the 36
> > square inches support a 2000 lb machine is not a severe strain). [...]
>
> There was a similar problem in a lab I once worked in, where the sign
> indicating the maximum floor loading effectively prohibited standing on
> one leg, and we had to shuffle everywhere. This was doubly bad, since
> the carpet was synthetic, and shuffling gave us a strong static charge.
>
> Thanks for the details you give. I'll skip forward, if you don't mind,
> to the essential question, which is...
> >> Is a language a dialect with an army? I'm inclined to say it's the
> >> expression of, and the vehicle for, a culture, and Britain and America
> >> have quite different cultures.
> >
> > Don't Yorkshire and Somerset have different cultures?
> It's a question of degree, of course, and there will never be a
> clear-cut answer. In the end, it's politics. Is Scots a language or a
> dialect of English? Depends on your point of view and what you focus on.
>
> I feel there are some large differences between the US and Britain.
> Familiarity obscures this, plus the fact that we can more or less
> understand each other without translators. Partly it is because America
> is a young nation. The Wild West ended just over 100 years ago
> (Wikipedia), and has I suppose left its legacy in the continued right to
> bear arms, which seems very strange to us.

OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.

The "Wild West" never existed, but was created as a fantasy in
the post-Civil War years -- the heyday being, say, the 1880s (when
"Buffalo Bill" toured throughout Europe for years, giving rise to
such fantasy-writers as Carl May).

It has nothing to do with the concept.

> Youth has its pluses
> (vigour...) and its difficulties. In contrast, as an Englishman, I feel
> part of a continuity going back almost 1,000 years, to the Norman
> Invasion. Chaucer and Henry V don't seem foreign; Alfred the Great does.
> It's true that our island remained politically divided till more
> recently; the Union with Scotland dates back only 300 years.
>
> It's not just youth. Australia is a young country, too, but I somehow
> feel closer to the Australians. This may just be me. I like the way they
> are willing to laugh at themselves, and, having read Shute's works,
> perhaps some of his fondness for the place has rubbed off.

Of course. Australia has never felt an urge to throw off the yoke of
British imperialism.

> I could say more, but this is a minefield, and my tin trousers are away
> for repairs.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<67e0391d-63b8-4901-b19a-0e2c6b898cc1n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131350&group=alt.usage.english#131350

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:16a2:b0:6a0:68e2:b7a4 with SMTP id s2-20020a05620a16a200b006a068e2b7a4mr16251868qkj.374.1652802667594;
Tue, 17 May 2022 08:51:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a81:2fc5:0:b0:2fe:d7d1:4315 with SMTP id
v188-20020a812fc5000000b002fed7d14315mr16694607ywv.87.1652802665785; Tue, 17
May 2022 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t5vruh$hhk$2@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=100.8.211.134; posting-account=tXYReAoAAABbl0njRzivyU02EBLaX9OF
NNTP-Posting-Host: 100.8.211.134
References: <t5mjd6$3si$1@dont-email.me> <884a0ef7-6fa7-420c-93fc-faad0346f83an@googlegroups.com>
<1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com>
<pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me>
<amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net>
<f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me>
<dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <t5vruh$hhk$2@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <67e0391d-63b8-4901-b19a-0e2c6b898cc1n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:51:07 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 2817
 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 17 May 2022 15:51 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 6:04:05 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 17/05/22 15:32, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
> > <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
> >> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of
> >> my friends Vera, Chook,
> >
> > It's Chuck. That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
> > Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the way,
> > I noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul McCartney)
> > employs a strange different accent (attempted Scottish, maybe?) just
> > before that.
> It might have been Chuck in Liverpool, but the person I know is called
> Chook. He got his nickname from his surname, Fowler.

Ruud probably doesn't know the Australian word "chook." It certainly
looks like just a local pronunciation. (And without the "fowler"
connection, there'd be no reason for the meaning to come into play.)

> >> and Dave, to be displayed at my 64th birthday party. Unfortunately
> >> I didn't have a camera, and the next time I saw them together it
> >> was too late.
> >> Now it's much too late. Vera died last year, and I rarely see
> >> Chook. Dave is still around.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<4710ca13-5737-4928-8a8d-cb7f3ab75d5an@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131352&group=alt.usage.english#131352

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4208:0:b0:461:d262:7842 with SMTP id k8-20020ad44208000000b00461d2627842mr7729697qvp.113.1652803118756;
Tue, 17 May 2022 08:58:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a0d:e944:0:b0:2fe:e383:1c4 with SMTP id
s65-20020a0de944000000b002fee38301c4mr14872043ywe.290.1652803118562; Tue, 17
May 2022 08:58:38 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 08:58:38 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t5vvlu$ccu$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=100.8.211.134; posting-account=tXYReAoAAABbl0njRzivyU02EBLaX9OF
NNTP-Posting-Host: 100.8.211.134
References: <0c47be90-5c9c-4fd1-884e-ac7a3edcb2e3n@googlegroups.com>
<4c01fefc-de7f-4031-a550-251a37425177n@googlegroups.com> <ed095e27-d963-4af9-a08f-6970b9137793n@googlegroups.com>
<b83d050c-046d-48c7-9ff5-23414691ba62n@googlegroups.com> <c81698c1-6ff8-4d99-919e-30231c3af695n@googlegroups.com>
<t5g7kh$rje$1@dont-email.me> <mn.5c527e65b71faa84.127094@snitoo>
<je3rh8Fn132U1@mid.individual.net> <t5q33b$15dc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<b43310dc-50ae-48ab-a3e0-9849fabb1cd9n@googlegroups.com> <t5svg5$17cq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<f4398f85-7b81-4b23-a235-8b97cffa869bn@googlegroups.com> <t5ve8g$11d4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<t5vvlu$ccu$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <4710ca13-5737-4928-8a8d-cb7f3ab75d5an@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:58:38 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 4068
 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 17 May 2022 15:58 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:07:47 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 17/05/22 16:10, Hibou wrote:
> > Le 16/05/2022 à 14:53, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 3:46:20 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:

> >>> GNV tells me that, in books at least (novels I suppose), "I
> >>> already ate" is indeed commoner than "I ate already".
> >> Certainly. "I ate already" has a feeling of Yiddishkeit.
> >> Which has nothing to do with the fact that there's nothing the
> >> least remarkable about "I've eaten." (Why would you add "already"
> >> in one but not the other? Can Brits not say "I've already eaten"?)
> > The perfect is used when the effects of a past event are still
> > relevant now. People do say "I've already eaten", but in this context
> > the 'already' is superfluous. "I ate", on the other hand, is not
> > anchored in time and requires something extra to tie it to now.
>
> My first exposure to "I already ate" was in the early 1970s. It stuck
> out like a dog's balls because an Australian would never say that. (For
> us, the word "already" automatically triggers a perfect tense.) The

Very nice -- since Hibou says that "already" is superfluous. For us, it
makes a bald statement a little less direct.

> speaker was a colleague who, IIRC, grew up in Massachussetts, studied
> engineering at MIT, then did his PhD at Stanford. Maybe I misremember
> the details, but I do know that he had lived on both USA coasts. (But
> probably not in the interior.)

Shouldn't make any difference. No "regional" feeling about it.

> Since then, I have had plenty of opportunity to observe that the present
> perfect is used far less in AmE than in BrE or AusE. So much less, I
> believe, that it's in danger of disappearing from the AmE language.
>
> One factor that has made this noticeable to me is that the exact
> opposite is happening in French, where the simple past has been almost
> completely replaced by the "passé composé", a tense that is
> syntactically identical to the present perfect.

In translating from either French or German, a useful rule of thumb
is to simply flip -- where they use the "perfect," we use the simple
past, and vice versa.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<seh78hho6c0kc3fdeh1ua78age9k4mg7g4@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131353&group=alt.usage.english#131353

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.mixmin.net!news2.arglkargh.de!news.karotte.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 09:00:16 -0700
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <seh78hho6c0kc3fdeh1ua78age9k4mg7g4@4ax.com>
References: <t5g7kh$rje$1@dont-email.me> <mn.5c527e65b71faa84.127094@snitoo> <je3rh8Fn132U1@mid.individual.net> <t5q33b$15dc$1@gioia.aioe.org> <t5q5hh$g24$1@dont-email.me> <t5qcvh$8hs$1@gioia.aioe.org> <t5qkdu$mdk$1@dont-email.me> <of828h99kbr4tejqbopn56t8ebs8qkjtbg@4ax.com> <59e90de45echarles@candehope.me.uk> <dpb28ht8vv5hsohdt61mjkbo1fjqqd0ec0@4ax.com> <t5sabd$bep$2@dont-email.me> <qrs48hduflorjj24djsb9vkq2qmf9td410@4ax.com> <1mog2d0gn2f99$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Trace: individual.net UGS0eaEh0wccgRdfvCeBMAU6Juby5qgWn8XcG/me0GoOn4Okzc
Cancel-Lock: sha1:owCRf9X7nG1vLgLtX3GDevfaaKA=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 17 May 2022 16:00 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 18:07:24 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Ken Blake:
>
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 11:45:17 +1000, Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On 16/05/22 02:53, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 17:28:34 +0100, charles
>>>> <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In article <of828h99kbr4tejqbopn56t8ebs8qkjtbg@4ax.com>,
>>>
>>>>>> You are correct. In AmE a "subway" is what BrE calls "tube" or
>>>>>> "underground."
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless the "subway" is a sort of sandwich
>>>>
>>>> "Subway" is the name of a chain of sandwich shops, but I wouldn't
>>>> call what they sell subways. Calling what Subways sells "subways" is
>>>> like calling what McDonalds sells "McDonalds."
>>>>
>>>> Are you hungry? Would you rather have a McDonald or a Subway?
>>>
>>>I would phrase that last question as "Would you rather have a McDonald's
>>>or a Subway".
>>>
>>>My youngest granddaughter calls the hamburger place "Old McDonald".
>>
>> When she goes to one, does she have a hamburger or a farm?
>
>Why choose? In Germany, we had a (short-lived) fast food chain called
>"Hamburger Farm".

In Germany they planted hamburgers and trees bearing lots of
hamburgers grew? I hope they were rare. I don't like well-done
hamburgers.

Old McDonald had a hamburger farm?

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<e5ea9649-5150-4a50-a4b0-a0e96767e2f2n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131354&group=alt.usage.english#131354

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:3d3:b0:2f3:ba0b:ee5b with SMTP id k19-20020a05622a03d300b002f3ba0bee5bmr20019140qtx.365.1652803249092;
Tue, 17 May 2022 09:00:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a81:12cb:0:b0:2fe:de5d:fbd8 with SMTP id
194-20020a8112cb000000b002fede5dfbd8mr15963463yws.460.1652803248796; Tue, 17
May 2022 09:00:48 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 09:00:48 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t6048g$suf$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=100.8.211.134; posting-account=tXYReAoAAABbl0njRzivyU02EBLaX9OF
NNTP-Posting-Host: 100.8.211.134
References: <0c47be90-5c9c-4fd1-884e-ac7a3edcb2e3n@googlegroups.com>
<4c01fefc-de7f-4031-a550-251a37425177n@googlegroups.com> <ed095e27-d963-4af9-a08f-6970b9137793n@googlegroups.com>
<b83d050c-046d-48c7-9ff5-23414691ba62n@googlegroups.com> <c81698c1-6ff8-4d99-919e-30231c3af695n@googlegroups.com>
<t5g7kh$rje$1@dont-email.me> <mn.5c527e65b71faa84.127094@snitoo>
<je3rh8Fn132U1@mid.individual.net> <t5q33b$15dc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<b43310dc-50ae-48ab-a3e0-9849fabb1cd9n@googlegroups.com> <t5svg5$17cq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<f4398f85-7b81-4b23-a235-8b97cffa869bn@googlegroups.com> <t5ve8g$11d4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<t5vvlu$ccu$1@dont-email.me> <t6048g$suf$1@gioia.aioe.org>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <e5ea9649-5150-4a50-a4b0-a0e96767e2f2n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 16:00:49 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 2881
 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 17 May 2022 16:00 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:25:59 AM UTC-4, Silvano wrote:
> Peter Moylan hat am 17.05.2022 um 13:07 geschrieben:

> > One factor that has made this noticeable to me is that the exact
> > opposite is happening in French, where the simple past has been almost
> > completely replaced by the "passé composé", a tense that is
> > syntactically identical to the present perfect.

> _Is_ happening? When I had my first contact with French, well over 50
> years ago, this process had already been completed. AFAIK, you'll find
> the simple past in French only in history books, but never in the spoken
> language.

Think not passé simple, but imparfait.

(The archaic French terminology is incompatible with comparing
phenomena.)

> Also, well over ten years ago, a French channel was available on Berlin
> cable TV and in one of their games the contestants were asked to say in
> 10 seconds e.g. the 2° person plural form of the simple past of "boire"
> or another irregular verb. There were some correct answers. :-)

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<963eeb72-2b8b-4e4b-86c8-135d18bb3477n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131356&group=alt.usage.english#131356

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:16c2:b0:69f:ca37:f6b5 with SMTP id a2-20020a05620a16c200b0069fca37f6b5mr17590357qkn.48.1652803436052;
Tue, 17 May 2022 09:03:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a81:9d5:0:b0:2f4:dd93:4513 with SMTP id
204-20020a8109d5000000b002f4dd934513mr26395872ywj.54.1652803435831; Tue, 17
May 2022 09:03:55 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 09:03:55 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <seh78hho6c0kc3fdeh1ua78age9k4mg7g4@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=100.8.211.134; posting-account=tXYReAoAAABbl0njRzivyU02EBLaX9OF
NNTP-Posting-Host: 100.8.211.134
References: <t5g7kh$rje$1@dont-email.me> <mn.5c527e65b71faa84.127094@snitoo>
<je3rh8Fn132U1@mid.individual.net> <t5q33b$15dc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<t5q5hh$g24$1@dont-email.me> <t5qcvh$8hs$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<t5qkdu$mdk$1@dont-email.me> <of828h99kbr4tejqbopn56t8ebs8qkjtbg@4ax.com>
<59e90de45echarles@candehope.me.uk> <dpb28ht8vv5hsohdt61mjkbo1fjqqd0ec0@4ax.com>
<t5sabd$bep$2@dont-email.me> <qrs48hduflorjj24djsb9vkq2qmf9td410@4ax.com>
<1mog2d0gn2f99$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> <seh78hho6c0kc3fdeh1ua78age9k4mg7g4@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <963eeb72-2b8b-4e4b-86c8-135d18bb3477n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 16:03:56 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 2041
 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 17 May 2022 16:03 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:00:22 PM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 18:07:24 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> >Why choose? In Germany, we had a (short-lived) fast food chain called
> >"Hamburger Farm".
>
> In Germany they planted hamburgers and trees bearing lots of
> hamburgers grew? I hope they were rare. I don't like well-done
> hamburgers.

And he hasn't died from Salmonella yet?

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<vuh78hlsjf6a0oj6rdhu7gkfdnkbn8as3v@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131359&group=alt.usage.english#131359

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.mixmin.net!news2.arglkargh.de!news.karotte.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 09:07:59 -0700
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <vuh78hlsjf6a0oj6rdhu7gkfdnkbn8as3v@4ax.com>
References: <1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <jegtaqF7ngeU1@mid.individual.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Trace: individual.net EN3D/iHOFmbswiIp4vHxrwwjEEsjr7RVs2L0ldxUOyg0rkqPmV
Cancel-Lock: sha1:qBVwFtpCa4+lD/vr1y6ky3kdDUs=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 17 May 2022 16:07 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 08:23:22 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>
>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>>
>>> [ … ]
>>>
>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>>> friends Vera, Chook,
>>
>> It's Chuck.
>
>You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?

An incredible comment from Ruud Harmsen! Typical of the reason he's
killfiled here.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t60joa$kl3$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131376&group=alt.usage.english#131376

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!GjGT3vKo+k06Av89T3Mk4A.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 12:50:13 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t60joa$kl3$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <rj2cuj6if0md.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
<9e8917b3-a7c5-49b8-ad6d-23c1d3be9302n@googlegroups.com>
<1kykrlsiqi1ie$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
<8184b74f-f61d-40f3-b8d4-4ac9aef099e6n@googlegroups.com>
<13wzojngtzibe$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
<sl938hdlgk9k9uosiiohcp8th3d68ralln@4ax.com>
<9b164bdc-4f9a-4312-8502-62e75a35f750n@googlegroups.com>
<t5urgf$l8i$1@dont-email.me>
<57d91418-6a2f-4394-8228-414b43a30a62n@googlegroups.com>
<rse78htbrqs76cqlbioc7f202bvvsjgpt4@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="21155"; posting-host="GjGT3vKo+k06Av89T3Mk4A.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Content-Language: en-US
 by: CDB - Tue, 17 May 2022 16:50 UTC

On 5/17/2022 11:18 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>>>> You may not have grasped, even from the discussion in this
>>>> thread that you probably didn't read, that those subways are
>>>> not_solely_ accesses to toilets, but are pedestrian underpasses
>>>> for street crossing. (Quite unsuited for the elderly,
>>>> incidentally.) (Stairs, in case that was too difficult for you
>>>> as well.)

>>> Many such places here have a long ramp instead of, or as an
>>> alternative to, stairs.

>>> But they usually don't have toilets. Those are more likely to be
>>> at ground level.

>> In _your_ cities? The context was that AmE doesn't have a word
>> equivalent to BrE "subway" because we don't have the institution.

>> We have the occasional pedestrian _overpass_ where a highway
>> transects a park.

> If your "We" includes the rest of the US for a change, we have both
> pedestrian overpasses and pedestrian underpasses.

> There is one of each within a few miles of where I live.

> The overpass is over I-4, but not near any park. The underpass is
> under a busy street, but not near a park.

Smiths Falls, Ontario, has a road crossing under another road; I have
taken it many times, since it is on the route from Ottawa to Kingston.
It is clearly labelled "SUBWAY".

I concede that I remember it because the usage struck me as unusual.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t60k7u$srp$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131378&group=alt.usage.english#131378

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!GjGT3vKo+k06Av89T3Mk4A.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 12:58:34 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t60k7u$srp$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <0c47be90-5c9c-4fd1-884e-ac7a3edcb2e3n@googlegroups.com>
<4c01fefc-de7f-4031-a550-251a37425177n@googlegroups.com>
<ed095e27-d963-4af9-a08f-6970b9137793n@googlegroups.com>
<b83d050c-046d-48c7-9ff5-23414691ba62n@googlegroups.com>
<c81698c1-6ff8-4d99-919e-30231c3af695n@googlegroups.com>
<t5g7kh$rje$1@dont-email.me> <mn.5c527e65b71faa84.127094@snitoo>
<je3rh8Fn132U1@mid.individual.net> <t5q33b$15dc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<b43310dc-50ae-48ab-a3e0-9849fabb1cd9n@googlegroups.com>
<t5svg5$17cq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<f4398f85-7b81-4b23-a235-8b97cffa869bn@googlegroups.com>
<t5ve8g$11d4$1@gioia.aioe.org> <t5vvlu$ccu$1@dont-email.me>
<t6048g$suf$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="29561"; posting-host="GjGT3vKo+k06Av89T3Mk4A.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Content-Language: en-US
 by: CDB - Tue, 17 May 2022 16:58 UTC

On 5/17/2022 8:25 AM, Silvano wrote:
> Peter Moylan hat geschrieben:

>> One factor that has made this noticeable to me is that the exact
>> opposite is happening in French, where the simple past has been
>> almost completely replaced by the "passé composé", a tense that is
>> syntactically identical to the present perfect.

> _Is_ happening? When I had my first contact with French, well over
> 50 years ago, this process had already been completed. AFAIK, you'll
> find the simple past in French only in history books, but never in
> the spoken language.

> Also, well over ten years ago, a French channel was available on
> Berlin cable TV and in one of their games the contestants were asked
> to say in 10 seconds e.g. the 2° person plural form of the simple
> past of "boire" or another irregular verb. There were some correct
> answers. :-)

Ha! Including mine. When I started learning French, about 75 years ago,
it was still part of the lesson.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<5bn78h57si0qlnnat3nr1cud1fmg45sgdj@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131389&group=alt.usage.english#131389

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:38:14 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <5bn78h57si0qlnnat3nr1cud1fmg45sgdj@4ax.com>
References: <1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <jegtaqF7ngeU1@mid.individual.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="66ee88783166775799d57f17258a665c";
logging-data="8800"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19d28nZMwj1qV5k2BNGsBt8"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:JbMt7ZW1amj5GV41Lh7dMwnnkLw=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:38 UTC

Tue, 17 May 2022 08:23:22 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:

>On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>
>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>>
>>> [ … ]
>>>
>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>>> friends Vera, Chook,
>>
>> It's Chuck.
>
>You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?

I'm talking about the song, and accents of British English.

>> That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
>> Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the way, I
>> noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul McCartney)
>> employs a strange different accent (attempted Scottish, maybe?) just
>> before that.
>>
>>> and Dave, to be displayed at my 64th birthday
>>> party. Unfortunately I didn't have a camera, and the next time I saw
>>> them together it was too late.
>>>
>>> Now it's much too late. Vera died last year, and I rarely see Chook.
>>> Dave is still around.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<3dn78h5al597vsnv1k7v3pn47a12uhpcio@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131390&group=alt.usage.english#131390

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:38:59 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <3dn78h5al597vsnv1k7v3pn47a12uhpcio@4ax.com>
References: <1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <jegtaqF7ngeU1@mid.individual.net> <vuh78hlsjf6a0oj6rdhu7gkfdnkbn8as3v@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="66ee88783166775799d57f17258a665c";
logging-data="8800"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19On5zd0S5iyvZBmcQKrlsL"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:KBTAvGf0a8Mb/Xtbv+41MV3Ro0I=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:38 UTC

Tue, 17 May 2022 09:07:59 -0700: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
scribeva:

>On Tue, 17 May 2022 08:23:22 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
><acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>
>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>> [ … ]
>>>>
>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>>>> friends Vera, Chook,
>>>
>>> It's Chuck.
>>
>>You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?
>
>
>An incredible comment from Ruud Harmsen! Typical of the reason he's
>killfiled here.

Absurd.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<sdn78h159rruok945d1l2rnsuuui1a2viv@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131393&group=alt.usage.english#131393

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:48:51 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <sdn78h159rruok945d1l2rnsuuui1a2viv@4ax.com>
References: <884a0ef7-6fa7-420c-93fc-faad0346f83an@googlegroups.com> <1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <t5vruh$hhk$2@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="66ee88783166775799d57f17258a665c";
logging-data="19264"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+cVp9Um8iflmCiTUaXIY+R"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:HDCYMbsB+xcfcvhNkKopSclys0g=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:48 UTC

Tue, 17 May 2022 20:03:59 +1000: Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:

>On 17/05/22 15:32, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>
>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of
>>> my friends Vera, Chook,
>>
>> It's Chuck. That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
>> Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the way,
>> I noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul McCartney)
>> employs a strange different accent (attempted Scottish, maybe?) just
>> before that.
>
>It might have been Chuck in Liverpool, but the person I know is called
>Chook. He got his nickname from his surname, Fowler.

I believe you.
But the persons mentioned in the Beatles song are likely to be called
Vera, Chuck and Dave.

That's all I was saying. Perhaps misunderstanding you, not getting
that they were really called that. And that should be reason for me to
be killfilled, some say. Just a misunderstanding, just two people
talking about different things, without noticing.

Typical of the poisonous, unwelcoming and discriminating atmosphere
some people here seem to be proud of. I for one think it's a shame.

By the way, returning to the topic, the person in the Beatles song
might indeed also be called Chook, if that name has a short u British
phoneme. It would sound the same in North England. The words 'put' and
'but' differ only in the first consonant there. And 'luck' and 'look'
are homophones there, only distinguised by context.

Example: in While my guitar gently weeps:
I luck at the clock and I notice it's turning. (Of the top of my head,
without verifying.)

>>> and Dave, to be displayed at my 64th birthday party. Unfortunately
>>> I didn't have a camera, and the next time I saw them together it
>>> was too late.
>>>
>>> Now it's much too late. Vera died last year, and I rarely see
>>> Chook. Dave is still around.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<85o78h9hmfean04i7tiqetiiq2cpc3ej5f@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131394&group=alt.usage.english#131394

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:55:09 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <85o78h9hmfean04i7tiqetiiq2cpc3ej5f@4ax.com>
References: <1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <t5vruh$hhk$2@dont-email.me> <67e0391d-63b8-4901-b19a-0e2c6b898cc1n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="66ee88783166775799d57f17258a665c";
logging-data="26348"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18sElgzAmTXUmjSn4Rcc/YF"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:M0IdlTUtqgos430uF1knzGHJJig=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:55 UTC

>> It might have been Chuck in Liverpool, but the person I know is called
>> Chook. He got his nickname from his surname, Fowler.

Tue, 17 May 2022 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>Ruud probably doesn't know the Australian word "chook."

Indeed I don't. Should I look it up? I should:
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/chook
==
noun
2. Also called: chookie Australian informal
a hen or chicken
3. Australian informal
a woman, esp a more mature one
==

>It certainly
>looks like just a local pronunciation. (And without the "fowler"
>connection, there'd be no reason for the meaning to come into play.)

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<3do78h17judcjdhh1hp17uk59c0okb916q@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131395&group=alt.usage.english#131395

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:59:36 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3do78h17judcjdhh1hp17uk59c0okb916q@4ax.com>
References: <1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <t5vruh$hhk$2@dont-email.me> <sdn78h159rruok945d1l2rnsuuui1a2viv@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="66ee88783166775799d57f17258a665c";
logging-data="31696"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18fLTWsYBBUGkd5V2Gew8Ew"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:HCEQD/vFIAkCqWkadEDIs9/nJl4=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:59 UTC

Tue, 17 May 2022 19:48:51 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>Example: in While my guitar gently weeps:
>I luck at the clock and I notice it's turning. (Off the top of my head,
>without verifying.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEMEAxlYL04
I look at you all ...
I look at the ??? and I see it needs sweeping.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-lm&q=while+my+guitar+full+lyrics
Floor.

I look at the world and I notice it's turning, ...

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<kmo78h1l0kbcaqh4p6s262or9p4sq91tj9@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131396&group=alt.usage.english#131396

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 20:03:32 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <kmo78h1l0kbcaqh4p6s262or9p4sq91tj9@4ax.com>
References: <ed095e27-d963-4af9-a08f-6970b9137793n@googlegroups.com> <b83d050c-046d-48c7-9ff5-23414691ba62n@googlegroups.com> <c81698c1-6ff8-4d99-919e-30231c3af695n@googlegroups.com> <t5g7kh$rje$1@dont-email.me> <mn.5c527e65b71faa84.127094@snitoo> <je3rh8Fn132U1@mid.individual.net> <t5q33b$15dc$1@gioia.aioe.org> <mn.85567e65635f104c.127094@snitoo> <t5vjr0$1abd$1@gioia.aioe.org> <t5vrhp$s6j$1@gioia.aioe.org> <t5vt38$1i5q$1@gioia.aioe.org> <t5vtlr$1t4a$1@gioia.aioe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="66ee88783166775799d57f17258a665c";
logging-data="4524"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/FI3eWmkO4vepWwDXSNv7o"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:UEBrOzHJDc++p9x4PfF99gSYsgE=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 17 May 2022 18:03 UTC

Tue, 17 May 2022 11:33:31 +0100: Hibou <h.i@b.ou> scribeva:

>Le 17/05/2022 à 11:23, Hibou a écrit :
>>
>> haar,
>
>A North Sea mist.

Variant of haze, with that common Germanic r/z alternation?

English: lose, lost, lost
German: verlieren, verloren, verloren
Dutch: verliezen, verloren, verloren.

Cf. archaic English forlorn.

>> oxter,
>
>Armpit.

Dutch: oksel. Similar.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<stkok8ncvo9y.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131397&group=alt.usage.english#131397

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!ecngs!feeder2.ecngs.de!178.20.174.213.MISMATCH!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!peer01.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!feeder.cambriumusenet.nl!feed.tweaknews.nl!posting.tweaknews.nl!fx10.ams1.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
User-Agent: 40tude_Dialog/2.0.15.41
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Organization: Computers don't get me 'cause I'm non-binary
References: <0c47be90-5c9c-4fd1-884e-ac7a3edcb2e3n@googlegroups.com> <bfd6082c-eea4-4490-b177-4fe6db591822n@googlegroups.com> <t5mjd6$3si$1@dont-email.me> <884a0ef7-6fa7-420c-93fc-faad0346f83an@googlegroups.com> <1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <jegtaqF7ngeU1@mid.individual.net> <8ec7d2bb-84f6-440c-865e-91b4d2342b87n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <stkok8ncvo9y.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
X-Face: .f:ZE>c\~9oJ+1nK#>ntSHOQS~4x"Qx2m(<D<@p$G"tzb1lgWLUGY.zApKa@VL_?d$r(8=?VjrD9=uY:x!+H=hvj58Uw7)Y9<:KMYD.+^~#qMpeg2rvt`{#2a~7YoyFaFaBEdo4.TJzBqgtCZZ:mku4J|hey}DE}_"z(rl0N)\Pxh*0$"3B2mr\01&YPY7WJ:2kSe'I#PqiTxs1s49!S#W85'\zMXy*wRgD,,k.=4:3M{(P"i6S;\az~ut3z`;?*Y;&]11<(EPF-SN`|3PhyL%~AuZpoFjjE_oM1`znHPq_?uib2WXwE+q@m),cLq~B$r^5uO]u6?CEecn=%xsDXNVa(1DX.)O(
Cancel-Lock: sha1:u+AcEWSp0FfKGFdCj7BeTxh6Wfc=
Lines: 33
X-Complaints-To: abuse@tweaknews.nl
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 18:04:08 UTC
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 14:04:19 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 3161
 by: Quinn C - Tue, 17 May 2022 18:04 UTC

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:23:28 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>
>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>>>> friends Vera, Chook,
>>> It's Chuck.
>>
>> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?
>
> You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original that PM
> was comparing his list of friend's names to?

Since that "original" wasn't quoted, it was easy to get confused what PM
was talking about. I've heard the song long ago (although not quite 64
years), but didn't remember such details.

Looking at the lyrics now, I'm actually confused as to what those names
represent. The grandchildren? It's unclear, and apparently, it wasn't
clear to the writers.

My 64th isn't so far away, so I could start planning, but I've known
only one Vera in my life, back in high school, no Chuck and can't come
up with a memory of a Dave or David on the spot, although it feels there
should've been at least one.

--
Dottie: Maybe you can give him a pep talk.
Tunde: He is a white man with money. God already gave him a pep talk.
-- Bob hearts Abishola, S01E10

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<unp78hp40477b5udse2r1c0j1rcu1krk7j@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131402&group=alt.usage.english#131402

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 20:21:43 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <unp78hp40477b5udse2r1c0j1rcu1krk7j@4ax.com>
References: <8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <jegtaqF7ngeU1@mid.individual.net> <8ec7d2bb-84f6-440c-865e-91b4d2342b87n@googlegroups.com> <stkok8ncvo9y.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="66ee88783166775799d57f17258a665c";
logging-data="14258"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+ewldyS3Wp/ws/G2jDJc56"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:bARUVSIQUo1H1fYwigvCb+M4w2I=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 17 May 2022 18:21 UTC

Tue, 17 May 2022 14:04:19 -0400: Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> scribeva:

>* Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:23:28 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
>>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>
>>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>>>>> friends Vera, Chook,
>>>> It's Chuck.
>>>
>>> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?
>>
>> You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original that PM
>> was comparing his list of friend's names to?
>
>Since that "original" wasn't quoted, it was easy to get confused what PM
>was talking about. I've heard the song long ago (although not quite 64
>years), but didn't remember such details.
>
>Looking at the lyrics now, I'm actually confused as to what those names
>represent. The grandchildren? It's unclear, and apparently, it wasn't
>clear to the writers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_I%27m_Sixty-Four
==
In 1967, John Lennon said of the song, "Paul wrote it in the Cavern
days. We just stuck a few more words on it like 'grandchildren on your
knee' and 'Vera, Chuck and Dave' … this was just one that was quite a
hit with us."[12] Lennon's contribution of the children's names were
likely made in the studio.[13]
==

Unclear, yes.
==
Every summer we can rent a cottage
In the Isle of Wight, if it's not too dear
We shall scrimp and save
Grandchildren on your knee
Vera, Chuck and Dave
==

Probably just nice sounding names, the fit in nicely metrically, and
Dave rhymes with save.

>My 64th isn't so far away, so I could start planning, but I've known
>only one Vera in my life, back in high school, no Chuck and can't come
>up with a memory of a Dave or David on the spot, although it feels there
>should've been at least one.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<59ea2105d2charles@candehope.me.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131408&group=alt.usage.english#131408

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.orpheusnet.co.uk!news.orpheusnet.co.uk.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 13:37:13 -0500
From: char...@candehope.me.uk (charles)
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:33:42 +0100
Message-ID: <59ea2105d2charles@candehope.me.uk>
References: <0c47be90-5c9c-4fd1-884e-ac7a3edcb2e3n@googlegroups.com> <bfd6082c-eea4-4490-b177-4fe6db591822n@googlegroups.com> <t5mjd6$3si$1@dont-email.me> <884a0ef7-6fa7-420c-93fc-faad0346f83an@googlegroups.com> <1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <jegtaqF7ngeU1@mid.individual.net> <8ec7d2bb-84f6-440c-865e-91b4d2342b87n@googlegroups.com> <stkok8ncvo9y.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
User-Agent: Pluto/3.18 (RISC OS/5.29) NewsHound/v1.52-32
Organization: None
Cache-Post-Path: slave.orpheusnet.co.uk!unknown@81.5.154.219
X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.2 (see http://www.nntpcache.com/)
Lines: 37
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-FYPfSo/DHYaTTgxWpWc/xrZfj8v1AysYoaQXdFJu213Ray4aWEgluZbpmtdVHfYugGb0xVqKBgl5T8e!34lXjMltnCEJnxmM+FmAerS4pMpmFN0Ss/Z2bra0/ebNW/Ij9k2d9r+olDZ7ZiV2Pc+gLbTKYj+Y!jA==
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3311
 by: charles - Tue, 17 May 2022 18:33 UTC

In article <stkok8ncvo9y.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>,
Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:

> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:23:28 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
> >>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
> >>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
> >
> >>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
> >>>> friends Vera, Chook,
> >>> It's Chuck.
> >>
> >> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?
> >
> > You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original that PM
> > was comparing his list of friend's names to?

> Since that "original" wasn't quoted, it was easy to get confused what PM
> was talking about. I've heard the song long ago (although not quite 64
> years), but didn't remember such details.

> Looking at the lyrics now, I'm actually confused as to what those names
> represent. The grandchildren? It's unclear, and apparently, it wasn't
> clear to the writers.

> My 64th isn't so far away, so I could start planning, but I've known
> only one Vera in my life, back in high school, no Chuck and can't come
> up with a memory of a Dave or David on the spot, although it feels there
> should've been at least one.

I've only knwn one Vera, but it ws probably a common watime name after Vera
Lyn - the singer. I have a cousin David and kow at leat 3 others.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<60b97dae-71c2-4737-8732-3504ba7cc9e4n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131409&group=alt.usage.english#131409

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1008:b0:2f3:cded:9075 with SMTP id d8-20020a05622a100800b002f3cded9075mr20995251qte.550.1652812694679;
Tue, 17 May 2022 11:38:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:244e:0:b0:64d:69ac:7619 with SMTP id
k75-20020a25244e000000b0064d69ac7619mr17839082ybk.23.1652812694376; Tue, 17
May 2022 11:38:14 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 11:38:14 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <stkok8ncvo9y.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=100.8.211.134; posting-account=tXYReAoAAABbl0njRzivyU02EBLaX9OF
NNTP-Posting-Host: 100.8.211.134
References: <0c47be90-5c9c-4fd1-884e-ac7a3edcb2e3n@googlegroups.com>
<bfd6082c-eea4-4490-b177-4fe6db591822n@googlegroups.com> <t5mjd6$3si$1@dont-email.me>
<884a0ef7-6fa7-420c-93fc-faad0346f83an@googlegroups.com> <1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>
<8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com>
<t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com>
<MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com>
<t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com>
<jegtaqF7ngeU1@mid.individual.net> <8ec7d2bb-84f6-440c-865e-91b4d2342b87n@googlegroups.com>
<stkok8ncvo9y.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <60b97dae-71c2-4737-8732-3504ba7cc9e4n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
Injection-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 18:38:14 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 3927
 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 17 May 2022 18:38 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:04:15 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:23:28 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
> >>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
> >>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:

> >>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
> >>>> friends Vera, Chook,
> >>> It's Chuck.
> >> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?
> > You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original that PM
> > was comparing his list of friend's names to?
>
> Since that "original" wasn't quoted, it was easy to get confused what PM
> was talking about. I've heard the song long ago (although not quite 64
> years), but didn't remember such details.

I had no idea what he was referencing, but I had no trouble understanding
that Ruud did know what he was referencing and gave the form found in
that source. That seems to have been too difficult for AC-B.

> Looking at the lyrics now, I'm actually confused as to what those names
> represent. The grandchildren? It's unclear, and apparently, it wasn't
> clear to the writers.
>
> My 64th isn't so far away, so I could start planning, but I've known
> only one Vera in my life, back in high school, no Chuck and can't come
> up with a memory of a Dave or David on the spot, although it feels there
> should've been at least one.

Ah. There are enough hints there for me to guess that it's the Beatles'
"When I'm 64."

That knowledge would have been of no use in interpreting the "inside
joke" that Chook's last name was Fowler, hence "Chook" is an appropriate
variety of "Chuck" for his name. Or even, he might _not_ be named Chuck/
Charles and simply have acquired the nickname by association.

I've known one Vera (co-worker of my mother's), a person one of whose
email accounts is in the name "Chuck" (he's usually called Charles but
apparently also answers to Charlie when pressed), and lots of Dave/
Davids.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<e1r78hdjot3kja4uupanbse0ptcthl0k3s@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131410&group=alt.usage.english#131410

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 20:43:44 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <e1r78hdjot3kja4uupanbse0ptcthl0k3s@4ax.com>
References: <t5mjd6$3si$1@dont-email.me> <884a0ef7-6fa7-420c-93fc-faad0346f83an@googlegroups.com> <1pryhp9.12xl23p9bb8aeN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <8c30aa1c-2857-4ab5-a97f-f9fe33385656n@googlegroups.com> <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="66ee88783166775799d57f17258a665c";
logging-data="24514"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19KLbhTAC8boqyAmQ7Xt+1r"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:pQspfFWGe6wsT0FoBZg3ivD++6A=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 17 May 2022 18:43 UTC

Tue, 17 May 2022 07:32:40 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
><peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>
>>On 17/05/22 01:33, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>> Sat, 14 May 2022 13:52:31 -0600: lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca>
>>>>> scribeva:
>>>>>> Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of 'costly'
>>>>>> and 'expensive',
>>>
>>>> In article <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com>,
>>>> rh@rudhar.com says...
>>>>> But an unusual one, then.
>>>
>>> Mon, 16 May 2022 11:42:05 +0100: Janet <nobody@home.com> scribeva:
>>>> Not at all; it's in common everyday Br E usage.
>>>
>>> I now suddenly remember "if it's not too dear". The Beatles.
>>> Maxwell's Silver Hammer? No. When I'm sixty-four? Yes:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCTunqv1Xt4&t=1m33s
>>
>>I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>>friends Vera, Chook,
>
>It's Chuck. That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
>Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the way, I
>noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul McCartney)
>employs a strange different accent (attempted Scottish, maybe?) just
>before that.

Actually, I thought Peter Moylan might have been unfamiliar with
Northern English British accent, and therefore thought he might have
heard Chook for what I think is Chuck. In the song, that is.

A really vile, mean and aggressive thought of mine, clearly, for which
I should be severely punished. Mea nihil culpa.

>>and Dave, to be displayed at my 64th birthday
>>party. Unfortunately I didn't have a camera, and the next time I saw
>>them together it was too late.
>>
>>Now it's much too late. Vera died last year, and I rarely see Chook.
>>Dave is still around.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<1br78h9rgj73q7rccdrokkadon33kt9nop@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131411&group=alt.usage.english#131411

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 20:50:27 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <1br78h9rgj73q7rccdrokkadon33kt9nop@4ax.com>
References: <pi108h519bseu5lhca4r35btd5fb6banh7@4ax.com> <t5p1a1$26n$1@dont-email.me> <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com> <MPG.3cec3ad31a74a2539896ce@news.individual.net> <f6r48hd3qft6k8qojraib5lkpstouiem13@4ax.com> <t5urt7$n2v$1@dont-email.me> <dmc68h5cmfctfbfbadlcifrej82vrd7qkq@4ax.com> <jegtaqF7ngeU1@mid.individual.net> <8ec7d2bb-84f6-440c-865e-91b4d2342b87n@googlegroups.com> <stkok8ncvo9y.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> <60b97dae-71c2-4737-8732-3504ba7cc9e4n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="66ee88783166775799d57f17258a665c";
logging-data="27771"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18E9lDLdTegCqTNTFQJRFhV"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:46/aMFy/rPKDRHJigY066sB9ETc=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 17 May 2022 18:50 UTC

Tue, 17 May 2022 11:38:14 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:04:15 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:23:28 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> >> On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>> >>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
>> >>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>
>> >>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>> >>>> friends Vera, Chook,
>> >>> It's Chuck.
>> >> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?
>> > You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original that PM
>> > was comparing his list of friend's names to?
>>
>> Since that "original" wasn't quoted, it was easy to get confused what PM
>> was talking about. I've heard the song long ago (although not quite 64
>> years), but didn't remember such details.
>
>I had no idea what he was referencing, but I had no trouble understanding
>that Ruud did know what he was referencing and gave the form found in
>that source. That seems to have been too difficult for AC-B.
>
>> Looking at the lyrics now, I'm actually confused as to what those names
>> represent. The grandchildren? It's unclear, and apparently, it wasn't
>> clear to the writers.
>>
>> My 64th isn't so far away, so I could start planning, but I've known
>> only one Vera in my life, back in high school, no Chuck and can't come
>> up with a memory of a Dave or David on the spot, although it feels there
>> should've been at least one.

>Ah. There are enough hints there for me to guess that it's the Beatles'
>"When I'm 64."

It was mentioned just a few posts earlier, with links to Youtube and
to the lyrics. You people don't read the threads in thread order?

>That knowledge would have been of no use in interpreting the "inside
>joke" that Chook's last name was Fowler, hence "Chook" is an appropriate
>variety of "Chuck" for his name.

I haven't seen the word or name Fowler mentioned in this thread. And
I'm not even sure what it means.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fowler
[bef. 900; ME foweler, OE fughelere. See fowl, -er1]

I see, een vogelaar. Now more usually meaning bird spotter, in Dutch.

>Or even, he might _not_ be named Chuck/
>Charles and simply have acquired the nickname by association.
>
>I've known one Vera (co-worker of my mother's), a person one of whose
>email accounts is in the name "Chuck" (he's usually called Charles but
>apparently also answers to Charlie when pressed), and lots of Dave/
>Davids.

Pages:12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor